By Jason Sattler

5 Reasons To Be Optimistic About Obamacare

January 14, 2014 4:34 pm Category: Memo Pad, Politics 66 Comments A+ / A-

Cuccinelli

In early November, in the midst of the worst of the disastrous rollout of HealthCare.gov, Terry McAuliffe beat Virginia attorney general Ken Cuccinelli, who defined himself as one of the nation’s foremost opponents of the president’s health care reform, to become the state’s next governor.

“We tested Cuccinelli’s brag that he was the first attorney general to sue to stop Obamacare,” McAuliffe pollster Geoff Garin told The Washington Post‘s Greg Sargent. “That actually made more voters less likely to support him than more.”

This didn’t mean the law was popular.

“A majority disapproved of the Affordable Care Act, but in Virginia, as elsewhere, we found that a lot of these voters want to fix the law,” Garin said.

Since then, the federal online health care marketplace languished for a few more weeks as news of cancelations dominated the media. Approval of the law and the president sunk to new lows. But public opinion of the law essentially remains unchanged.

“While the public is hardly enthusiastic about Obamacare, the same polls that show unfavorable attitudes toward the law also show an electorate that isn’t looking to repeal it but rather fix it,” veteran political analyst Charlie Cook wrote last week.

From the moment the Affordable Care Act became law, its critics called it flawed and doomed to fail. The flubbed launch of the health care exchanges reaffirmed this assumption. However, the best way to “fix” it is to give it a chance to be properly implemented.

Numbers released on Monday show that the number of people who picked a plan through the health care exchanges by December 28 was respectable — given that for two out of three months, the key way to pick a plan online was barely functional. While the fate of the law ultimately depends on Democrats retaining control of the presidency, Congress or both, there are promising signs that show that the main fix the law needs — a mostly healthy group of enrollees in all 50 states — still may be possible, even in its first year.

Here are five reasons to be optimistic about the future of Obamacare.

Photo: KentonNgo via Flickr

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5 Reasons To Be Optimistic About Obamacare Reviewed by on . In early November, in the midst of the worst of the disastrous rollout of HealthCare.gov, Terry McAuliffe beat Virginia attorney general Ken Cuccinelli, who def In early November, in the midst of the worst of the disastrous rollout of HealthCare.gov, Terry McAuliffe beat Virginia attorney general Ken Cuccinelli, who def Rating: 0

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  • middleclasstaxpayer

    Speaking of Obamacare, consider this:

    During the 3-1/2 years of World War 2 that started with the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and ended with the Surrender of Germany and Japan in 1945, the U.S. produced 22 aircraft carriers, 8 battleships, 48 cruisers, 349 destroyers, 420 destroyer escorts, 203 submarines, 34 million tons of merchant ships, 100,000 fighter aircraft, 98,000 bombers, 24,000 transport aircraft, 58,000 training aircraft, 93,000 tanks, 257,000 artillery pieces, 105,000 mortars, 3,000,000 machine guns, and 2,500,000 military trucks. We put 16.1 million men in uniform in the various armed services, invaded Africa, invaded Sicily and Italy , won the battle for the Atlantic, planned and executed D-Day, marched across the Pacific and Europe, developed the atomic bomb and ultimately conquered Japan and Germany
    It’s worth noting, that during the almost exact amount of time, the Obama administration couldn’t build a functioning web site?????

    • JPHALL

      So what? After December 7, 1941, those Republicans who fought against Roosevelt from 1932 on, could not continue being negative toward his proposals. This is in stark contrast to what is happening with Obama today

      • middleclasstaxpayer

        So you don’t think anyone can continue being negative towards Obama’s ideas??? How about the estimated 64% of our US population who have been negatively affected by Obamacare, having their policies cancelled AFTER being promised & reassured that “if you like your doctors & you like your plan, you can KEEP your doctors & keep your plan, PERIOD”??? Oh, and the “promise” that the average American will SAVE $2000 per year on their healthcare??? Neither “promise” has been fulfilled, only the OPPOSITE exists. Cancelled plans, MUCH higher rates for the “average” American. Obama has “accomplished” hook-winking ALL of us, PERIOD!

        • disqus_fsqeoY3FsG

          So you are saying that 64% of the population who had their policies cancelled because they were sold junk policies that would not protect them and their family in the event of a medical crisis. You know for a fact that the 64% were not able to obtain new policies with more coverage for an affordable rate? It is too early to tell if the ACA will be a success or a failure, but the fact that elected officials are rooting for it to fail and doing everything in their power to stop people from signing up is just plain selfish and cruel. All our “so called” legislative leaders should be working together to find solutions to our problems instead of bitching and moaning and doing nothing else.

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            I can only cite my family’s experience…our son had a VERY acceptable plan, with ONLY a $500 deductible. It was cancelled upon expiration, and replaced by a plan that costs MORE than twice the old rate, with a deductible that skyrocketed to $6500, a 1300% increase. My son is now WITHOUT any health insurance as we cannot afford the new rate or the HUGE $6500 deductible per incident. Remember, we were PROMISED, “if you like your doctor & you like your plan, you can KEEP your doctor & plan, PERIOD!!!”

          • Lisztman

            @middleclasstaxpayer: And, of course, you went out shopping to see what options there were, right?

          • disqus_fsqeoY3FsG

            Did your son find out if he was eligible for ACA tax credit which would help him with the cost? I trust your son is healthy and therefore he would not have been dropped by his insurance carrier for health reasons. Has he gone on to the exchange and spoken to someone who might be able to assist him in finding a better plant. Did your son’s policy fall within the Grandfather clause? I am sorry for your son’s situation and I trust he can get assistance from the exchange or would qualify for the Medicaid expansion.

          • Independent1

            You’re lying!! The maximum deductible under Obamacare is $6,300 and that’s for a cheap bronze plan. And if the premium has doubled it’s because your son’s policy did not have $500 deductible and was basically a worthless piece of paper. Take your lies somewhere else troll!!
            You’re claim that 64% of Americans got cancellation claims is a similar lie!! Obamacare with nonwork related insurance is only targetted at less than 17% of the population – about 45,000 people. You just keep making up stories and lies.

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            If you ever learned to read, you would have seen the reports about emails discovered between administration officials discussing fact that UP TO 64% of policies were estimated to be non-compliant with ACA rules & would be cancelled. These emails went back to 2010, so administration officials knew up to 3 years ago of the potential problems. Surely the president also KNEW (or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN). As for you, you apparently haven’t needed to apply for insurance, maybe you’re on SS, but the new deductibles I’ve seen can go up to $12,500 & higher.
            Our old policy was inexpensive by todays standards, covered doctor visits w/$30 copay, and had an affordable $500 deductible. There are millions of Americans who can attest to this disaster foisted on us by Obama. Put your head back in the hold it came out of.

          • Independent1

            At least 95% of those 64% of policies you’re nonsense post is throwing out are work related group insurance policies that will not be cancelled – they will simply be revised in order to conform to ACA – just as all Medicare advantage plans such as my own has been updated.
            You have not seen an policy offered on an Obamacare website with a deductible higher than $6,300 – that is the max deductible for a bronze (cheap plan).

          • Independent1

            Here are some extracts from an OpEd you may enjoy:

            Atavistic Laboratories of Patterson, New Jersey has finalized weeks of research on hazardous and dangerous materials and organizations. The GOP, they say, “”is more dangerous than tobacco, agent orange, RoundUp, radioactivity, Vlad the Impaler, Croesus, Viking Berserkers and Genghis Khan’s Golden Horde– combined.”” A spokesman for the laboratory suggested that “”Satan himself would be hard put to equal the infernal effects of the GOP.”
            The renowned international testing and assessment lab concluded research after an intensive study of the effects of Republican administrations. “The record is undeniably clear,” they say, “thousands of Americans are pushing up daisies solely because of Republican administrations, trillions of dollars have been and continue to be funneled into Swiss bank accounts, derivatives, defense industries, and ponzie schemes like bank failures and corporate educational systems.”

            Here’s the link if you want to read a little more on the destruction to America and the planet that the GOP is responsible for:

            http://www.opednews.com/articles/GOP-May-Be-Required-By-Law-by-martin-weiss-120919-867.html

          • Independent1

            And here’s another reason why you’re lying – even if your supposed son’s policy doubled, unless he makes more tha 94,000/yr he would eligible for a subsidy that would probably almost pay his premium.

            See this from CNN Money:

            Nearly 26 million Americans could be eligible for health insurance subsidies next year, but most don’t know it.

            That’s because relatively few people are familiar with provisions in the Affordable Care Act, aka “Obamacare,” that will provide tax credits to low- and middle-income consumers to help them purchase health coverage through state-run insurance exchanges.

            Most of those who will be able to claim the subsidies are in working families with annual earnings between $47,100 and $94,200, according to a recent analysis by Families USA, a consumer advocacy group. More than a third of those eligible will be young adults between ages 18 and 34.

          • daniel bostdorf

            Please take a screen shot or digital photo of this cancellation letter as well as proof of the deductible skyraocketing….and post it here…otherwise…none of us believe your troll lies…

          • daniel bostdorf

            Serial troll poster…off topic same post…at NM about nelson Mandela….

            here; http://www.nationalmemo.com/joe-conason-12-12/

            “deductibles on average have gone up 1300% (from $500 to $6500)”

            Google search:

            “deductible that skyrocketed to $6500, a 1300% increase.”

            result—-see 12-13-13 post

            https://www.google.com/search?q=%22deductible+that+skyrocketed+to+%246500%2C+a+1300%25+increase.%22&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS509US569&oq=%22deductible+that+skyrocketed+to+%246500%2C+a+1300%25+increase.%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.1790j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

      • ProudACLU

        Save your breath JP – people like middleclasstaxwhiner can only see they hate the ACA – its their entire reason for living now. No matter what ills society, it will because of the President and the ACA. They have completely given up on facts outside of their bubble and no amount of reasoning or discussion is going to sway them. They are a lost cause and will understand that better when the GOPT is voted out of power this fall.

        • middleclasstaxpayer

          The real analogy is when liberals blame everything on Bush!!!

          • Lisztman

            Sorry, middleclasstaxpayer. The liberals don’t blame everything on Bush. They do, however, blame on Bush those things which are historically fact, and significant.

            The 2001 tax cuts, coupled with two wars conducted “off the books”, destroyed the Clinton legacy of a balanced budget. This is history. This is fact. You can call it blame, or you can call it partisan name-calling. But it’s still fact.

          • JPHALL

            So I see you still do not understand truth. You are blinded by your deeply held hatred of the ACA. No program ever starts off the best. Instead of complaining, come up with a workable alternative or fix. Stop being a quitter or hater. Only in fantasies do things work out right from the start.

          • Lisztman

            @JP: I can only imagine that you must have been replying to someone else… ???

          • JPHALL

            You are correct. I meant to reply to middleclasstaxwhiner. I am new to this activity and I obviusly made a mistake. Sorry.

          • daniel bostdorf

            you do not know the meaning of analogy….you post lies and propaganda…

          • Independent1

            Can you identify something in our current economy he’s not to blame for??
            He’s the one that started two unfunded wars, one that’s still running up our deficit and still ending up with people being killed because he refused to allow the CIA and FBI to try and do anything to prevent the 9/11 attack.
            AND, He’s the one who pushed for passing two unfunded tax cuts that helped him run up our deficit while in office by over 6 trillion and then allowed the greatest recession to happen since the big depression that America’s still trying to dig itself out of – primarily because the stinking political party he represents has done everything in its power to keep America from recovering faster
            AND, He’s the one that was in office when the economy ran amok and the financial sector was fraudulently pushing the housing market which created a fake economic bubble that when it burst ended up costing America more than 14 million jobs and a debacle that has continued to add to our debt such that Bush is at about 10 trillion now and climbing for adding to the debt.
            AND, He’s the one who together with Cheney started an unnecessary war based on lies and distortions which ended up killing over 4,000 Americans and a countless number of Iraqi’s – while allowing Haliburton and other buddies to rip off the American taxpayers for trillions of dollars.
            AND, He’s the one who because of lobbying by Big Pharma pushed Congress to add a drug benefit giveaway to Big Pharma called Medicare Part D which also WASN’T PAID FOR, just so Big Pharma could pocket billions of seniors and taxpayers money.
            AND, if you were even one ounce honest with yourself and the posters on the NM you’d own up to the fact that George Bush and Dick Cheney are the main reason America is still struggling to recover from the economic disaster THAT THEY CREATED!!!

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            In typical left wing style, it’s STILL Bush’s fault. Your boy has not done anything wrong. Benghazi, IRS scandals, failure to close Guantanamo, NSA SPYING, 16 TRILLION DEFICITS, all the DOCUMENTED LIES about Obamacare, the list is endless. You are blinded by your ignorance & failure to face reality. Argue with someone else…the “discussion” is OVER!

    • T.j. Thomas

      The Japanese were much more threatening than the Republicans.

      • daniel bostdorf

        And God is more threatening than all of us…WTF?

        5 reasons to be optimistic about Obama care??

        You troll posters mean nothing…

    • daniel bostdorf

      Off topic

    • latebloomingrandma

      The entire country rallied around the war effort. If you didn’t go off to war, you went to work in a factory. No such thing is happening with Obamacare.

      • middleclasstaxpayer

        It’s even worse than that. Only OLDER folks with current illnesses are applying for Obamacare, NOT the young folks that Obama believed would FINANCE his ill-conceived scheme. I do not expect my children & grandchildren to be responsible for me. We are responsible for them.

        • Lisztman

          OK. Where did you get the data for that one? I suspect that you’re either making it up, or spending too much time listening to Hannity and Beck. Go do some basic research and you’ll find that you’re promulgating a pack of lies.

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            The administration just published the report YESTERDAY….read a newspaper or turn on CNN!

          • Independent1

            You’re lying again, at least 1/3 of those that have applied are less than 34. Your days on the NM are number middleidiot.

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            You are making yourself look stupid….the WH announced on this past Monday that ONLY 24% of applicants were younger folks, far below what is required to pay for this misguided scheme of liberals.

          • Independent1

            The Administration is only projecting the percent of age distribution for the policyholder – it did not attempt to include in their percent the ages of the other insureds in the households. A revised projection puts the insureds actually covered 18 and 34 as over 1/3 (remember – children of policyholders up to age 26 are also now part of that age distribution for the new policies – which the Adminstration didn’t factor in).

          • daniel bostdorf

            i have to repeat this—poster heer: middleclasstaxpayer … is a serial troll poster who cuts and pastes off topic comments to distract us…..even repeating same lies at NM…

            Phrase
            “During the 3-1/2 years of World War 2 that started with the Japanese bombing”

            google: https://www.google.com/search?q=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS509US569&oq=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&aqs=chrome..69i57.250j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

          • daniel bostdorf

            you misread the article…

        • daniel bostdorf

          simply not true….this is a fox news rugh limbaugh lie and propaganda….

    • Jambi

      Jambi sez….”What negative effects?” …I’m one of the 64%… where do you get your stats?…What’s with the WW II lecture?

      • middleclasstaxpayer

        When rates DOUBLE & TRIPLE, and deductibles go from $500 to $6500-$10,000, we ALL lose.. My son’s monthly rate more than doubled, and his deductible went up 1300% (from $500 to $6500), so he’s now WITHOUT insurance instead of the very acceptable (and affordable) plan he had in 2013, which was CANCELLED by Horizon upon its renewal. We were PROMISED LOWER RATES & that we could KEEP our doctors & plans if we wanted to…PERIOD! None of this was true, and none of it happened as promised.

        • jillybeen

          did u check the exchanges or medicad expansion..instead of ranting why don’t you go look for a plan for your son I bet u would b surprised at what is now available..however from what I get from your tone of your comments you did not check out other policies…you will need to read the fine print on the policy your son got sounds to me like he didn’t do his homework and took the worst possible plan so u can rant n rave about the affordable care act…stop listen/watching Hannity Rush n Beck .. use your own mind and find the facts …

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            OF COURSE we checked the ACA, that’s where the new rate came from. Son is not eligible for subsidies, only the new much higher prices “Silver” plans, which are the lowest level of coverage. Anything above that is even more expensive.

          • johninPCFL

            “not eligible for subsidies” = >$55K NET pay with no dependents, meaning ~$92K gross, meaning ~$44/hr. I don’t think he needs subsidies either. Why do you?

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            Wrong…earns under $16,000, so not even eligible for ACA or ANY credits…only eligible for Medicaid, which offers MUCH LESS in help as there isn’t a doctor in 40 miles that will accept new Medicaid patients. WE have been paying for his private insurance, but cannot afford the new, much higher rates. And if you attempt to purchase health insurance from the ACA website WITHOUT credits, the costs are astronomical compared to our old Horizon plane. with a small $500 deductible. Old policy GONE FOR GOOD, thanks to Obama’s “help!”

          • johninPCFL

            I’ve been paying for my family insurance for about 30 years, and my plans have been cancelled or changed about every two years. Odd that they never became less expensive until 2010 when a new plan became available after ACA passed. We switched because the new plan was LESS expensive (I suspect that BCBS offered it as their baseline plan under ACA.) That plan is no longer available (right on their normal two year schedule) and the new plan is a silver plan, a little more expensive (right on their normal schedule.)
            It might amaze you to know that Obama didn’t nationalize the insurance companies, didn’t call their CEOs and dictate that they cancel plans. The Inscos are behaving the same way they’ve behaved for the last 30 years that I know of, and probably are continuing a trend that they started in the 1940s. It is nice and convenient for them that they can claim “Obama did it”, but it doesn’t make it true.

          • middleclasstaxpayer

            We have been paying for our son’s insurance for many years (it covered all doctor visits with a $30 co-pay, plus hospitalization with a mere $500 deductible) through Horizon BCBS, and have NEVER seen more than very MODEST increases year-to-year, UNTIL this renewal. When a plan MORE THAN DOUBLES in price, AND has a 1300% INCREASE in deductibles (from $500 to $6500), you have to believe SOMETHING has caused it other than normal business issues. It could be just a coincidence, but do you really believe all the hundreds (maybe thousands) of ACA REQUIREMENTS had nothing to do with it???
            Obama himself predicted a DECREASE averaging $2000 per American, yet health insurance costs have gone in the OPPOSITE direction??? So where is the difference coming from??? Coincidence? DOUBT IT!

          • daniel bostdorf

            Serial troll poster…off topic same post…at NM about nelson Mandela….

            here; http://www.nationalmemo.com/joe-conason-12-12/

            “deductibles on average have gone up 1300% (from $500 to $6500)”

            Google search:

            “deductible that skyrocketed to $6500, a 1300% increase.”

            result—-see 12-13-13 post

            https://www.google.com/search?q=%22deductible+that+skyrocketed+to+%246500%2C+a+1300%25+increase.%22&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS509US569&oq=%22deductible+that+skyrocketed+to+%246500%2C+a+1300%25+increase.%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.1790j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

          • daniel bostdorf

            Please take a screen shot or digital photo of this cancellation or allegations and insurance company
            letter as well as proof of the deductible skyraocketing….and post it
            here…otherwise…none of us believe your troll lies…

          • daniel bostdorf

            not true

          • daniel bostdorf

            once again….

            Please take a screen shot or digital photo of this cancellation
            letter as well as proof of the deductible skyraocketing….and post it
            here…otherwise…none of us believe your troll lies…

          • Independent1

            Jilly, don’t pay attention to middleiodiot – he’s making everything up. There are no 6,500 to 10,000 deductibles on ACA – the max deductible is $6,300 for the cheapest bronze plan. Middleidiot is just a troll.

        • daniel bostdorf

          you have to provide is with verifiable proof..

          Please take a screen shot or digital photo of this cancellation or deductible problem
          letter as well as proof of the deductible skyraocketing….and post it
          here…otherwise…none of us believe your troll lies…

      • daniel bostdorf

        do not worry—poster here: middleclasstaxpayer … is a serial troll poster who cuts and pastes off topic comments to distract us…..even repeating same lies at NM…

        Phrase
        “During the 3-1/2 years of World War 2 that started with the Japanese bombing”

        at NM last december;
        http://www.nationalmemo.com/joe-conason-12-12/

        google: https://www.google.com/search?q=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS509US569&oq=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&aqs=chrome..69i57.250j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

    • johninPCFL

      What you meant to ask was why the lowest-cost bidder for the federal project did such a miserable job, given the taxpayer money this free-enterprise company was paid. After all, they didn’t finish the job on time, and left no time at all for testing, even knowing a year in advance when that date would be.
      Fortunately another free-enterprise company was capable of fixing the issues left by the first, incompetent free-enterprise company.

      • middleclasstaxpayer

        What additionally I forgot to ask was: IF Obama’s first priority for us is JOBS, why did he award the ACA web contract to a FOREIGN (Canadian) firm??….I know it can’t be because the president of the Canadian firm is a friend & former Princeton classmate of wife Michelle Obama….or IS IT??>?>???

        • johninPCFL

          Obama doesn’t award contracts. The Federal award went through the same contract process every other Federal contract goes through, meaning it’s put out for bids, the bids are gathered, Congress approves the expenditure (though sometimes this happens earlier in the process), the contracting office culls the submitted bids down to a group of bidders that’s qualified to do the work, then the low bidder is chosen from that group.
          Do you habitually lie when the truth is so easy to find? It makes you look like either a fool or a Fox News troll.

        • daniel bostdorf

          Actually this is a lie…CGI is a decades long contractor for GOP previous administrations…

    • daniel bostdorf

      gotcha…serial troll..pasted same stuf at dozens of other sires….off topic..

      Phrase
      “During the 3-1/2 years of World War 2 that started with the Japanese bombing”

      google: https://www.google.com/search?q=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS509US569&oq=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&aqs=chrome..69i57.250j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

      NM here: http://www.nationalmemo.com/5-reasons-to-be-optimistic-about-obamacare/#comment-1206487667

      screen shot attached….

      Go away…

  • T.j. Thomas

    ““While the public is hardly enthusiastic about Obamacare, the same polls that show unfavorable attitudes toward the law also show an electorate that isn’t looking to repeal it but rather fix it.”

    Even Forbes’ own poll a couple of months ago showed the same thing.

  • daniel bostdorf

    Look—-Obama/Romney care is working extremely well in Massachusetts. We had our version of ACA 7 years ago….

  • daniel bostdorf

    poster her: middleclasstaxpayer … is a serial troll poster who cuts and pastes off topic comments to distract us…..even repeating same lies at NM…

    Phrase
    “During the 3-1/2 years of World War 2 that started with the Japanese bombing”

    google: https://www.google.com/search?q=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS509US569&oq=During+the+3-1%2F2+years+of+World+War+2+that+started+with+the+Japanese+bombing&aqs=chrome..69i57.250j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

    At NM here

    at this topic…:

    http://www.nationalmemo.com/5-reasons-to-be-optimistic-about-obamacare/#comment-1206487667

    A social media troll as someone who seeks to lure or bait people into negative, disruptive rhetoric for their own edification or to commandeer an otherwise free-flowing discussion among colleagues. They don’t recognize anyone that may be interested in discussing something that bores them and opt to criticize or yell “boring” instead of engaging in the discussion. They choose to belittle those who seek the information and discourse as well as those who try to provide it. They simply have no interest in anything that is not self-serving. Trolls will defend their focus on expressing contrary opinions as an honorable attempt to rid the online community of fake-experts, get to the truth of a matter or enlighten their followers; however, their intent has nothing to do with community building or public enlightenment.

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