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Friday, October 28, 2016

“One of the worst days in the history of our country,” my friend Dan Kennedy wrote on Facebook. “The worst day since 9/11.”

My sentiments exactly. If you’re like most people, they’re probably yours as well.

Very likely, the rest of us will never know — much less comprehend — the Newtown, CT school shooter’s motives. The word itself implies a coherence alien to a diseased mind.

Twenty first-graders. Do his motives even matter?

Having some knowledge of mental illness, when I first heard that the Newtown killer’s weapons—a Bushmaster .223 caliber assault rifle, a pair of 9mm semi-automatic handguns, and hundreds of bullets—were registered to his mother, I imagined I knew the story: a divorced, middle-aged suburban housewife, isolated, captive to her son’s madness, handicapped by weak laws and an inadequate mental health system, and frantically bargaining with his advancing psychosis to buy peace.

Hoping that things would magically change.

But it turns out that I was wrong. The guns that ended Nancy Lanza’s life in her own bed indeed belonged to her. Living alone in semi-isolation with a troubled teenaged son she kept at home because the stresses of school were more than he could handle, she adopted the least sensible hobby imaginable.

She became a gun collector and avid target shooter, and she took her son along. Something of a mathematical whiz with a loner’s passion for computers and videogames, he probably took to the mechanical precision of expensive, semi-automatic weapons.

Alas, he took to the darker aspects of the American gun cult as well.

Look, target shooting is one thing; a harmless, somewhat dorky pastime like bowling or showing thoroughbred dogs. I own a target pistol myself, and take it out sometimes to plink aluminum cans and the occasional cedar fence post. I also own shotguns, although I no longer hunt.

Out in the Arkansas boondocks where I live, guns are a practical necessity for several reasons—self-defense among them. Most men and a fair proportion of women are deer hunters. We hear gunshots all the time. Even the dogs and horses pretty much ignore them.

There was even a killing at Christmas a couple of miles down the road three years ago. I knew the shooter somewhat, and have never heard anything bad about him. As told around the county, it was a deal where a meth addict vowed mayhem if his girlfriend took her child to see his father. He texted death threats.

Call the sheriff and maybe they’ll send somebody within the hour.

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Copyright 2012 The National Memo
  • How can anyone justify the fact that a single hospital in Miami treated as many gun victims last year as the total number of gun victims in the UK over the last 10 years? The arms industry, and its propaganda branch, the NRA, has created a gun culture that, if left unchecked, is likely to destroy our society. We are slowly, but surely, being transformed into a society where citizens are afraid of each other, neighbors fear each other, and relatives are afraid of each other.

    What happened in Newtown, Aurora, Virginia Tech, the Sikh Temple, Arizona and so many other places during the past several decades is not an accident and it is not caused by the United States being afflicted by unique mental illnesses. We are no different from anyone else. What is different is the availability of lethal weapons and high capacity magazines that allow people to slaughter innocent victims.

    Sometimes they are massacres, like those mentioned above, more often than not they are shootings that happen daily in every city and town in America.

    Incredibly, but not surprisingly, one of the effects of the tragedy is Newtown is record sales of semi-automatic weapons throughout the USA in anticipation of stricter gun control laws. Our focus, as citizens, is not how to curtail the availability of guns, but the hurry up and stash a mini-arsenal in our houses to be ready for the boogeyman when he shows up. God help us!

    • MrStoneheep

      Of the 5 places you mention, the first four all share the distinction of being “Gun Free Zones”. The 5th was not and there could probably have been more senseless death had there NOT been one of those legally packin’ CCP carriers on scene. I DO agree with the banning of high capacity magazines, TOTALLY, and for ALL guns, handguns included.
      I AM a Life Member of the NRA and do NOT feel the public needs high capacity magazines. You may be surprised to learn a large percentage of NRA members feel as I do.

      • Are you suggesting the solution is for all of us to carry concealed weapons and be ready to have our version of Gunfight at the OK Corral? Is that what we have become?

        The solution is not more guns on the streets and being ready to have a shootout on a moment’s notice, the solution is stricter gun control. Nobody is proposing banning handguns, as long as those handguns are kept locked in a safe place in our houses for protection. Nobody is proposing to ban target practice, as long as the weapons used for that purpose are kept in a safe place at all times. Nobody is proposing to ban hunting, as long as the weapons used are appropriate for that purpose.

        What many of us object to is people buying semi-automatic weapons, assault rifles, high capacity magazines, and having arsenals laying around in their houses available to whomever happens to walk by. Some of us object to people being able to walk around with concealed weapons in public places.

        Let our law enforcement agencies, or the National Guard, deal with domestic and foreign threats. Our guns would not have prevented 9/11, or any of the terrorist acts that have taken place in the USA and throughout the world. Guns are being used to kill innocent people. Period.

        • OK_Corral

          Quick side note–the shoot-out at the OK Corral occurred when Sheriff Earp was enforcing gun control laws — no firearms were allowed in town. The folks generally considered the bad guys wanted to keep their guns. Wyatt removed them. Even back in the “Wild West” society passed laws to keep guns out of town.

          • MrStoneheep

            Par 1; Dominick, a favorite trick of the left is to “reduce to the rediculous”. That’s such an idiotic question that it doesn’t deserve consideration. I’m suggesting we don’t advertise the fact of a vulnerable group. I’m also suggesting we have some type of trained licensed armed security at the facility AND advertise such.
            Par 2; Stricter gun control? Cannot get it moreso, IMHO. If my handgun is locked up at home, it really isn’t too effective as I’m driving through the city and get stopped by a bunch of thugs. Thank God, a few States have expanded their Castle Doctrine to include your auto.
            Par 3; My semi-automatic Remington Model 1100 12 and 20 guage shotguns are semi-automatic and are used for their purpose of hunting. Under your premise they would be illegal to own. On high capacity magazines, we agree. If you have a problem with the CCP’s, talk to you legislators. Personally, I don’t have one. Increases one’s liability.
            Par 4; I’ll just deal w/ the domestic side here. (how’d we make the jump to the Nat’l . Guard?) The police in Sandy Hook were pleased with their response time which has been estimated from 5 to 10 minutes, depending on who is saying it. Neither worked well did it? Learn something – the police CANNOT protect you. They can only respond AFTER a crime is committed, not prior to. Do we not have SOME responsibility for our ownselves? An armed officer aboard any of those flights 9/11 would DEFINITELY have helped the situation if not stopped it all together. Sheep or wolf, which do we prefer? On your last statement, it’s not so “period”.
            Deranged people are killing people, and the gun happens to be their selected means. Deal with the deranged individual.
            Your second post: I’d suggest you reread the true history of that incident and the events leading up to it. Society passed no law or ordinances. Earp took it upon himself to make and enforce that ordinance. The shootout occurred because he refused to release one of the Clanton’s from jail.

          • awakenaustin

            How many times have you been stopped by a bunch of thugs driving through town? I may get killed in a car accident on my way to work today. I think we should increase the speed limit, end all traffic safety measures, make cars less safe and leave it up to each individual to provide for his own safety when driving. I don’t think we as a society should undertake any rational measures to try to reduce the death toll on highways or make driving a safer endeavor. Every man woman and child for his or her self. Wahoo! Who needs other people anyway? Yeah, I am being ridiculous, but then so are you. The ordinary world we live in, in this nation, is not the incredibly dangerous place you believe it is. In fact the death in a car accident scenario is much more likely than the gang of thugs.

            If only the Clantons had been able to get a Gatling gun that would have evened the odds. The gunfight occurred because the Earps wanted to kill the Clantons. They came prepared to do it and they were successful despite the Clantons having firearms of their own. One man’s history is another man’s fiction.

          • MrStoneheep

            In answer to your first question, twice. Once in S.Oak Cliff, and no one injured. Second time in Oakland with the same end result. There’s something that just changes people’s attitudes when they’re staring down the muzzle of a .44.
            Regarding the auto accident, I can only control how I’m driving and if I die in the auto accident, that’s what it is, an accident. I am not going to rail for the illegalization of automobiles. I’m going to drive as defensively as I can. Myself or my family being accosted isn’t accidental, that’s pre-conceived and intentional, and I DO have control over that. That’s being as defensive as I can. Wolf or sheep? Choice is your’s – and mine.

          • patuxant

            In Oakland? Well, that is a dangerous place to begin with so why go there?

          • MrStoneheep

            had no choice – work

          • idamag

            Know what? I don’t believe you were accosted twice by armed thugs.

          • neece00

            Ida, I was just thinking that same thing. I think our mrstone is another paranoid individual walking the streets looking for someone specious in a dark hoodie that he can question or shoot because he is afraid for his life.

          • MrStoneheep

            You sound as though you think I care what you think? I have bad news for you. It wasn’t a response to you to begin with. You’re one of these folks that post to argue. Have a good time and you are now on the “Ignore” side along with neece00.

          • You sir are a buffoon.

          • mjw1952

            In my 60 years, having lived in urban and rural areas, I have never been accosted and felt I needed to kill someone to protect my self. Maybe’s it’s you. More of these guns purchased for protection from “thugs” ending killing family and friends in accidents than assailants.

          • MrStoneheep

            Your researched printed statistical analysis for this statement? I need be enlightened.
            Personal stats are 2 to 0 and no “killings” of friends or family. Perhaps it’s the training and practice, and FWIW, it only takes once on the other side of your stats.

          • patuxant

            You have raised interesting and palpable points. However, what do you make of Dom’s early comment about there being far fewer gun related incidents in England in the last ten years versus one year in the US?

          • MrStoneheep

            Impertinent. This isn’t part of the British Empire any longer and we have a different Constitution than do they. Also, when I see such comments, I appreciate footnotes citing the text of such studies.
            I didn’t mention before because all it would do is lead to a heated dialogue even furthering the drift away from the primary topic here.

          • Replying to MrStoneheep –

            Yeah, lets just ignore any “facts” that don’t fit into your specific ideology.

          • MrStoneheep

            Not ignoring any facts Jim. I didn’t see anything specifically cited where I could check this out myself, and is it not a fact that our two Nation’s Constitutions are, in fact, different. Just because you call it a “fact” does not make it so.

          • What does the British Empire have to do with current laws and statistics? I spent a year studying in England, admittedly, a very long time ago, I went everywhere alone and with friends, and I was never confronted by thugs. In fact, even the Bobbies were unarmed, and people respected them and obeyed them!

            Your arguments are classic NRA discourse. It is based on the assumption that we live in a constant state of danger, that people are out to get us, and that we must arm ourselves to the teeth to fight the boogeyman.

            I suspect I am a lot older than you are, I have never been threatened by any armed thugs, people in all the communities I have lived in were friendly and helpful, and since paranoia is not one of my problems I have no plans to have an arsenal in my little abode any time soon.

          • MrStoneheep


          • Sorry for all the tribulations you are going through young man. You may want to consider moving and working elsewhere. While gun violence is everywhere and efforts must be made to curtail it, most neighborhoods in the USA are peaceful and are not like what you described in your posts.

          • MrStoneheep

            Typical from a far left idealogue -” if you don’t agree with us, you are a gunnut, far right idiot and don’t know what you’re talking about. The only right answer is our answer”. Thought you were above that Dominick. You’re, of course, correct, key word being MOST neighborhoods. Some are not and once upon a time, I had to venture into some of these. Today, I don’t carry in the car, but I don’t argtue with other’s right to do so.

          • Mr. Stone, you are arguing with leftwing buffoons, might as well debate a tree stump.

          • MrStoneheep

            The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
            If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
            you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
            If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

            —- File information ———–
            File: DEFAULT.BMP
            Date: 21 Sep 2001, 13:59
            Size: 358 bytes.
            Type: Unknown

          • You must work for the NRA. Your postings read like you do. I drove for a living in all kinds of neighborhoods and never felt the need to carry a gun. The neighborhoods I drove in went from the very wealthy to the very poor where drug dealers and thugs hang out and not once did I ever have a situation that couldn’t be handle by talking only. Having to have a gun at all times is an addiction just like drugs are.

          • Why is the culture of the USA so violent? In many posts the writer mentions that the USA is unique because of it’s CONSTITUTION. Is the constitution the cause of the violence? 1st amendment, 2nd amendment, etc.

          • MrStoneheep

            No, the cause of the violence are the sickos themselves that pick up their weapon of choice, whatever it may be, and choose to go on a killing spree.

          • Correction, my comparison to the UK referred to A SINGLE HOSPITAL IN MIAMI treating more victims of gunfire in one year than the entire population of the UK in ten years. This statistic was made available on ABC yesterday.

          • idamag

            Mrstone, and some states makes it legal to shoot anyone, whether they are armed or not, if you perceive they are a threat.

          • johninPCFL

            An armed officer on any of the 911 flights would have responded exactly as the flight attendants and flight crew did – accede to the hijackers wishes. He would have kept his gun holstered and stayed in his seat until the plane hit the tower.

            That was the policy in place at every airline, and the procedures followed by every airline, until that tragedy. The passengers of the last plane broke procedure because they had information about the other crashed planes and knew what was coming.

            Don’t rewrite history to make the fairy tale seem truer.

          • MrStoneheep

            We don’t know that, pure conjecture. We’ll also now never know, will we? Rewriting history? I’m not and can’t. We only know what DID happen and what did NOT happen. Sadly, we do know there was no resistance, armed or unarmed on three of the flights. Somewhat the same as Friday, wouldn’t you agree? I prefer to take the direction
            of the Israelies and refuse to become the “sheep”, but to each their own desire. I really don’t want to be dictated as to becoming the sheep, regardless what you may think is best for you and your’s. If I have to be subject to scrutinization from the gun laws, that’s OK, and I don’t need or want high capacity magazines. BTW: I wasn’t suggesting the airline have the security. I feel security be the province of the Feds. After all, if the TSA can accost a 12 year old in a wheelchair to tears on the taxpayers dime, they can also place security in the air. (see the news of just minutes ago about the little girl in the wheelchair)

          • johninPCFL

            Incorrect. What we do know absolutely is that the airlines toed the principal of “give the hijacker what they want” to keep the liability of loss at an absolute minimum. That’s why we allowed passenger planes to fly to Cuba, right? That’s why DB Cooper was allowed to take off again after the passengers were offloaded and only the crew remained aboard.

            I’m glad you take your defense seriously. Police respond to criminal activity, always in the past tense. My concern for the situation at school, or on a plane, is that the urge to get out the gun and shoot precludes the consideration of what happens with a miss or a shoot-through. Killing the hijacker and the pilot simultaneously seems to be a circumstance not considered…

          • MrStoneheep

            You use “incorrect” too easily. That gets into a teenage “it is – is not” type discussion. Cuba? DB Cooper? 9/11? Apples and oranges.
            Pass throughs and misses are not “not considered” by myself. I just don’t have room here to compose an entire instructional SOP manual.
            I’m not advocating all carry on our school campuses. I do feel we need supply our schools with trained armed secuirity. Our vets are reportedly having employment problems. A good source of manpower right there.
            Check out different bullets and what they will and will not do.

          • johninPCFL

            My original question was regarding the training you’d support for arming personnel in schools. Most posting here think that an armed person on the grounds would be enough to deter an attack like the one that just occured. My point is that if that doesn’t deter the attack, are those who support putting armed personnel in place willing to assume the costs of training that person so that misses and shoot-throughs are considered and the person knows the awesome responsibility that discharging a weapon brings? Are they in full understanding of the legal consequences? For instance, is the person defending the school absolved of liablity in the event that they accidentally kill a student? What are the ramifications for the defender of accidentally discharging the weapon (for instance, drop the gun while transferring it from your carry to a desk drawer) and wounding someone? What are the ramifications for the person if they don’t meet the attacker (fear or other reason) with deadly fire and students are injured?

            The 911 hijackings started just like every other hijacking in modern times. The hijackers were armed (with knives this time, instead of a gun or threat of a bomb) and grabbed a flight attendant. “I need to talk to the Captain right now or I kill her”. Airline SOP at that time was to open the cockpit door and let the captain talk to the hijackers. An air marshall would have sat there and watched it happen.

          • MrStoneheep

            1st – yes. Spend the $. If we can pay what we do for county officers to protect judges, are the little kids less to us? Or here, we have armed security at the School Board offices but not the schools!?!? 2nd. Of course.I’m fairly certain we’d have not seen 20 little tykes killed. Knowledge of an on-site armed security may have prevented the catastrophy all together. 3rd, termination. A lot is made by the left of ‘accidents”. The well trained and serious folks don’t have “accidents”, but for you, OK, no second chances. 4th, he/she better respond! But. I suppose there could be a coward.

            I’m glad you are so sure the marshall would have just sat there. For some reason, I don’t believe that. Perhaps, initially so, but I do think it would have changed before slamming into the Towers. Then again, if the pilots were both gone, maybe it is moot.
            I wasn’t there.

          • In many schools today there are armed police officers and security guards, and some of them have been shot first to keep them from stopping the gunman. So there are cases where armed security nor the police could stop a person bent on shooting with their automatic rifles and pistols. That is why we especially need better gun control when it comes to automatic weapons and military style weapons.

          • MrStoneheep

            And which one would that be?

          • Hey, Goofball, armed Sky Marshalls don’t work for the airlines and don’t abide by their rules!

          • johninPCFL

            Hey clownman. Sky marshalls followed the same rules of engagement. Remember all those hijacked flights to Cuba? How many marshalls shot it out with the hijackers on the aircraft? Oh, yeah. It was NONE!

            How about when DB Cooper hijacked the plane out west? How many marshalls shot it out with him? Oh, yeah, I remember now. It was NONE!

            Today’s rules are different. Probably had something to do with the 911 hijackers behaving completely different than all preceding hijackers, huh?

          • idamag

            I know yo don’t want to talk to me, but people, on that flight, were on cell phones to loved ones and describing everything that happened.

          • So a armed Sky Marshall would have just given up and surrendered to the hijackers, is that what you are saying?

            Are you on crack?

          • johninPCFL

            All government personnel work under rules of engagement. The rules in effect at that time were “give the hijackers what they ask for”. Flight to Cuba? OK, fine. Cash to spend when you get there? OK, fine.

            Sky marshalls were identified then the same way they are now (they’re not.) No weapon surrendering, no hysterics, just act normal and keep cool. The only difference then was that their primary mission was to try to make sure that the passengers didn’t get killed, by them or the hijackers. Todays mission also adds “take them down if you can do it” to the operation.

          • I too am an avid hunter also I spendt 22 years in the military. As a person with decades of firearm experience, it is my opinion that there is no legitimate reason for civilians to own semi-automatic weapons. In hunting, I’ve never had to fire more than 3 consecutive rounds at any target, and there are many better hunters out there. As for self protection, in civilian life I’ve never fired a weapon at a person for any reason. I’ve lived in some of the worst places in America, knowing this and the use of common sense has kept me safer than any firearm could. For instance I don’t go looking for drugs or sex anywhere, you’re dealing with the criminal elements then and anything can happen. Nor do I make a habit of traveling anywhere at night, when I have to, I certainly don’t travel through the alleyways or darkened streets, again criminals love the dark places to hang out. As for anyone attempting to invade my home, I own 3 revolvers a 38 special, a 45 and a 357, I expect thay’ll do just fine. Afterall it was guns like these ( revolvers ) that won the west.

          • The tragedies that take place every day throughout the United States are anything but ridiculous. The reason those massacres were successfully accomplished was not because the killers in Newtown, Aurora, Virginia Tech, the Sikh Temple in Wisconsin, Tucson, and Oklahoma City did not have access to mental healthcare or because God (religion) is no longer in our schools, the real reason is because unstable people, or people filled with hatred, had easy access to semi-automatic weapons and high capacity magazines.
            Had those people tried to carry out their crimes been armed with a knife or a baseball bat, most of the victims would have been able to escape, and some may have been able to defend themselves.
            You are free to refer to common sense as ridiculous, the NRA does it routinely, but don’t be surprised if many fellow Americans disagree with your opinion.

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            You have a real good valid points.

            Your par 3 is very interesting since the weapon is used for hunting, which I would not law against.

            Par 4 is speculating about something that could happen. IF we lawed against every single thing that “could happen”, no one would be legally able to walk out of their own homes, maybe not even live in them.

            Par 1 is excellent. I would fully approve of armed teachers. But, first they MUST BE former Combat Veterans. In fact, I approve of CC Permits, but only if the seeker of that permit is a former Combat Veteran. I do not believe an average Joe/Jane Cop Wannabe with a CC Permit is capable of handling a weapon in a heated firefight or when that person absolutely must use it.

            We had here in Canton Ohio a big case a few months ago. A jerk with a CC Permit, found parking on a dark street, late at night, bad part of town, appearing to either be picking up a hooker or dropping her and her possible pimp off. The Cop overacted and nearly shot the jerk when the gun was found in his possession, even though the man tried to state he had one but the Cop ignored it.

            So carrying a gun don’t guarantee a thing, especially if you’re an idiot. Probably more than anything else, what this does guarantee is that if the permit holder does shoot, he/she will probably shoot at the wrong time, under the wrong circumstances and wind up themselves in jail on a possible murder charge. Many of our state laws are extremely specific about self defense. Most people who have these Permits are not Combat Veterans. Most don’t have any real life experiences. And, the process of getting this permit is so minimal, it’s pretty much useless.

          • larm007

            Maybe we wouldn’t need so much ‘gun toting’ protection if handguns were banned. Go figure.

          • idamag

            Ok, having been there and having read letters written by witnesses that are housed in fort Huachaca, your facts don’t fit the eye witness facts.

            There had been a feud between the Earps and the Clantons for years. The fight did not take place at the OK Corral. It took place on a street where the Clantons had been forced into a place where there was no place for them to get out. Wyatt Earp was not the lawman in Tombstone, his brother was. Eye witnesses said that Billy Clanton threw his gun out and he was shot anyway.

          • MrStoneheep

            Pretty good. reread my post. I didn’t nitpic the point of WHO was the marshall, though I knew. No point. I know where it took place. Not all the Clanton’s were killed then either, but so what. BTW: mine was a response to Dominick, but it’s totally off topic of the thread.

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            Is it really necessary to compare what life was like during the Wild West Days to today?

            Is this what you and OK_Corral are trying to point to?

            If this is the case, we’re in deep shit!

            I would have hoped OUR society has advanced a little bit during these past 15o years.

          • idamag

            Michael, you are right. My point to Ok was that it had nothing to do with gun control and facts were different than his take on it.

          • Ed

            AWWWW! You don’t want to destroy the Hollywood myth do ya!

          • majordad75

            There will never be a “shootout” when only the bad guys have the guns.

        • Dominich, I have been reading your responses to articles on this site for months and find them well written and reasonable. I now detect a note of emotional hype in this subject of gun control. M16 rifles and maching guns do not have a place in our community other than with professionals. However, when you consider the shooter had two automatic hand guns that can do as much damage a the .223 rifle then the subject of ownership of assault weapons is compounded by use of many other type guns, calibers, designs that can be equally efficient. Last week, a nut in China attacked and used his knife on 28 innocent students, Mcvey used fertilizer and kerosene. The boys mother was a gun enthusist, reclusive and had a time bomb living in her home. The bomb exploded using her guns which were purchased legally. If all the guns in american were confisticated, would not protect you when in harms way, waiting for the police to arrive. Guns laws here in calif. are rigid but crime still happens using guns, usually revolvers and automatic pistols. We will try to enact some more national laws regards gun control, mental health, arming certain qualified school personnel as we did pilots. All of these measues are good, but, we live in a complex society where religious and patriotic beliefs are curtailed in schools, State and National buildings etc. to appease the atheistic folks who object. We dont see more of this happening because most people were raised by their parants to respect and love one another. That small percent that is raised as an animal, if hurt or sick, will respond like an animal. This is what happened in Connecticut. In closing, I will say that I am 79, a korean vet, not a member of the NRA or Miniutemen and have 18 gr. grandkids to worry about. Our subject is much more involved than banning asault weapons, Hopefully VP Biden will pursue other resonable means and methods to protect ourselves and our children. Placing a ban on all guns is not the most practical.

          • idamag

            Bill, need to get this straight. No president has ever advocated taking all guns away. That is NRA fear mongering. They have asked for banning semi-automatics and multiple clips and are doing so, again.

        • The law enforcement and the National Guard have done nothing to stop or get rid of the meth labs and addicts in my neighborhood. Two women were attacked in different events, and the police response was “well we don’t know what to do with them if we catch them”. They didn’t even come out to investigate. So hell yes, I carry everyday. I am no threat to my good neighbors, but the bad guys know not to mess with me. And no, I will not bother the police because they would not respond anyway. So take your anti-gun paranoia some place else.

        • PhysicsCarlsh

          We need sanity, which also involves listening to one another without assuming that we understand one another. We must always assume that our ideas, regardless of how deeply we feel about them, may be wrong.

          While I may sympathize with some of your concern I think you are enjoying making pronouncements without regard to whether or not they invite discussion. As a one time gun collector I can pick apart many of your demands, but that will not invite discussion either.

          If you are really serious about having an effect in this rather complex situation you must realize that you cannot dictate what you want any more than anyone else can.

        • Yes, that IS what we’ve become.

          And you can’t take guns away from everyone because we need them to protect ourselves from the crazies that have guns.

          No one is prepared to discuss a real viable solution. It’ll be a radical solution but it will contribute more to reducing gun violence by crazies & criminals then passing a few more token laws.

        • smokehill

          “as long as those handguns are kept locked in a safe place in our houses for protection”

          Who elected you as my mother? We have dozens of loaded firearms in the house, with only a few of them locked up. Before you whine about MY safety procedures, let me come by your place and kick your a55 because you’re stupid enough to leave sharp knives in a drawer, or power tools unlocked in the garage, if you have kids around.

          You’re delusional enough to think that someone will “walk by” and get my firearms? If I’m here, they’re dead. On the rare occasions I’m not, they can speak to two Great Danes, two Boxers and two Pit Bulls about whether they’re welcome in my house.

          You spoiled suburban weenies are a hoot. You’ve never been in a third-world country, have no idea what a mass disaster or martial law is like, and still have the brass to lecture your betters on what “we” need. Ask the people in New Orleans, where the cops were the biggest looters, did absolutely nothing to protect anyone, and spent their time seizing citizens’ firearms so they could continue to loot in safety. And most of those weapons are still not returned to their owners.

          Just wait until the Chinese hack your local electrical grid & you’re without power for a few weeks in the winter, or when terrorists blow up your reservoir & you have no water or sewer for a month. You have no idea how ugly life will get, or what your neighbors will do.

        • Quick note: Pretty much all handguns that aren’t revolvers are semi-automatic. A semi-automatic is a gun that fires one bullet with each pull of the trigger, without having to pull back a hammer or any other extraneous step, as is needed on most revolvers. Also, if I carry around a gun for protection, and I never draw it unless I’m attacked, it’s none of your business whether I have one or not.

        • larm007

          If handguns are kept locked in a safe place in our homes than the likelihood of their being readily accessible is somewhat negated. Personally, I think all handguns should be illegal (save a shooting range, maybe, if target practice for fun suits you). Hunting rifles can be had with a license. We are no longer in the situation of needing an armed civilian militia. It has been replaced with our Armed Forces. Amendments can be revoked.Take a look a the statistics related to gun deaths worldwide. Some countries report their with a single digit. We have become a horribly violent nation. I’m over us.

      • Then why for God’s sake aren’t you doing anything about it? or do you prefer to just sit back idly why your org. lobbies Congress and pays politicians to look the other way when these things happen. You are as complicit in these things as those who profit from Wall St abuses as stockholders. You can vote these jackholes out, right? please do so then come back and tell us you have a clear conscience.

        • MrStoneheep

          Enough with the venom, OK? I do vote since I’m a ‘lifer’ and let’s just say, Wayne and I don’t trade Christmas cards. Before you throw too much mud at the Asscoiation, you may want to look at some of the good they HAVE done. The NRA is who originally proposed the 10/20/Life system of sentencing. They were instrumental in drafting legislation on several issues. You see, it’s to OUR benefit the deranged don’t get their hands on firearms because it ALWAYS is turned to where it’s OUR fault this stuff happens. What complicity does the medical fraternity have when they refuse to add the mentally deranged onto the NCIC lists electing instead to hide behind the patient/doctor syndrome. Maybe Sandy Hook doesn’t fit here, though I feel it does, Aurora most assuredly does. A “Shrink” up to that bastion of far left idealogues, the University of Colorado KNEW that schmuch was a ticking time bomb and di absolutely nothing to stop it. Look at all of the recent and not so recent mass shootings. They have two commonalities, “Gun free zones” and mental derangement. If you want to see something really ludicrous on this subject, take a look at another taking a great deal of time on the news right now, the ex-Marine in Mexico being held for a gun violation. Is it legal in the US for Corporal Hammar to
          own or possess a firearm? Is it an “antique firearm” as defined by the statutes. The answer to both questions is “No”. Still, everyone is up in the
          air about the abuse he’s suffering. Do we have a tendency to choose wich laws we will enforce and which we won’t? Didn’t used to, but in recent years, we sure do.

      • Jim Lou

        Have you communicated your thoughts to NRA?

        Does the NRA speak for you?

        • neece00

          It seems like the NRA is really only speaking for itself. If the majority of the members agree that these weapons are not necessary, then the majority of these members need to speak up.

          • MrStoneheep

            I did NOT say majority, I said “a large percentage”. And yes, I have communicated same.

          • neece00

            You missed the point, if the large percentage/majority of NRA members disagree with the philosophy then why have they not changed their regulations or policies to fit the members.

          • MrStoneheep

            neece00, for some reason unknown to me, this post got past my Auto Delete, but maybe that’s good because you really PROVE the far left agenda here. Why is it the Right and the Republicans can accept the fact Obama was re-elected and they have another four years to wait, while our Democratic far left cannot accept, maybe even understand the principle of “majority rules”. Again, NO!!! You missed the point or just refuse to accept it. I said “a large percentage”. That could be (is) in the area of 30%, but that is not a majority.”large percentage”and “majority” are not interchangeable terms, unless it’s someone as yourself that changes definitions to fit their point of view. (damn, I hope that filter works from now on. The gene pool really needs releif from minds like yours)

          • idamag

            neeceoo, the NRA (Not right for America) is actually a lobby group for gun manufacturers. They have built this fear is people who can be scared witless so they can sell more guns.

          • neece00

            Your right, the NRA only looks at the amount of money will get for each rifle sold.

      • patuxant

        If I recall, in AZ, the guy with the concealed weapon didn’t use it. So what difference would it have made?

        • MrStoneheep

          Great question – and thank you for biting. The difference was the schmuck KNEW he was about to die if he didn’t stop with the shootings. That’s called deterent and what “Gun Free Zones”do just the opposite of.

          • johninPCFL

            Any ideas about the second “defender” that nearly shot the first “defender”? Any thoughts about the level of training we should mandate before turning out more Rambos to shoot the existing Rambos who are using their guns to shoot the mentally ill?

          • MrStoneheep

            Yes, I do have thoughts, John. Care must be given whenever someone pulls their sidearm. As the 2nd didn’t shoot the 1st, there was SOME type care given, though I do believe there was a third person intervention. The point is that the original perpetrator stopped his action for fear of being killed himself. Please don’t denigrate to the name calling. So far, you’ve proven yourself above the far left/right rhetorical ranting. It’s alright to disagree as long as it’s civil. In reading your other posts, I feel you above that.

          • johninPCFL

            How sure are we that he stopped “for fear of being killed himself”? From what I’ve read, most of these idiots go in believing they’ll be killed, and that’s part of the fame they’ll have. Maybe his real fear was not of dying, it was of being severely wounded by an amateur and living long enough to go to prison.

          • MrStoneheep

            And you could be just as correct as I can. Either is the same net end result, no further loss of life or limb caused by THAT perpetrator. And I do believe you’re correct about the beliefs of “most of these idiots”. I feel McVey to be an exception as he didn’t plan on being caught, but that was more of a neo-nazi thing I think. I can’t and won’t attempt to crawl inside of the mind of this type individual. I want nothing to do or to occupy my time even considering what goes through their feeble minds. The sicko’s are not that important to me, quite frankly. If memory serves me correctly, one of these shooter’s spree was stopped by a jammed weapon. Could be wrong, but I remember something back there a few years ago.
            Actually, I’d like to see one of these sicko’s get caught, sent to prison and be turned loose within the prison’s general population. It wouldn’t be pretty – – but then we sure can’t be offending his rights now, can we? The ACLU would be all over it.

        • idamag

          Pat, if you recall the interview of the man with a gun directly after the shooting: He said he was in Walgreen Store when he heard gunshots. He took out his gun and took the safety off. He ran out and took aim at a man with a gun in his hand. Someone shouted to him that it was not the shooter it was the hero who had disarmed the shooter.

      • Where did you people come up with gun free zones? Is that like a free-fire zone?

        • MrStoneheep

          The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
          If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
          you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
          If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

          —- File information ———–
          File: DEFAULT.BMP
          Date: 21 Sep 2001, 13:59
          Size: 358 bytes.
          Type: Unknown

      • smokehill

        You have obviously never been near anywhere that packs of coyotes were prevalent, or you’d define “need” differently. They’re fast, there are a lot of them, and they’ll do things to a calf or sheep that you wouldn’t want to see. Feral dogs — one of the little gifts we get from urban scumbags — are even worse.

        You obviously don’t have much firearms experience, or you’d realize that using two short mags instead of one long one only adds a second or two to the time, and that you are more likely to jam with a hi-cap magazine than a short one; it’s the nature of the beast. This makes the argument that shortening magazines will reduce death totals in public ambushes rather specious. When I hear noises in the barn I carry several 30-rounders, for exactly that reason.

        I find it really interesting that no one is suggesting a limit on the magazines that cops or our politicians’ bodyguards use, even though statistically the odds of them ever firing more than 2 or 3 rounds in any encounter is near zero.

        But …. just in case, we let them carry whatever they want, as if their life were more valuable than my children’s lives. And don’t give me that “trained” nonsense. My wife and I are far more skilled with firearms than almost any cops, as we regularly prove in pistol & rifle competitions.

        This whole issue is complete bull, and is just a cheap political scam to eventually ban and confiscate ALL firearms. The ACLU & Sarah Brady at least have the honesty to admit that, but Obama pretends otherwise.

      • idamag

        You wouldn’t know it from the publicity the NRA generates.

    • old_blu

      Oh yeah you know gun and high capacity magazines have gone way up, and it’s too bad.

      I can’t imagine living in that much fear.

      • idamag

        Old blu, I don’t know whether the NRA created all this paranoia and fear or we have raised a bunch of cowards who are so afraid they have to arm themselves, even in churches.

      • neece00

        The interesting thing is that the sale of guns has gone up 49 percent since the November election. Still a bunch of paranoid republicans thinking they are going to take the law into their own hands.

        • And want to take the law into their hands even if they kill or wound innocent people.

    • Progressive Patriot

      I am enlightened by your posts. Thank you. As I think about our country, and our culture, I am reminded of the legend of the frog, placed in a pot of water on the stove. At first, the water in the pot was room temperature, and the frog sat comfortably in that pot. In time, the heat under the pot was slowly raised, and the frog, not able to detect the rising temperature, continued to sit in the pot. Eventually, the water boils, and the frog, unwittingly remains in the water to his death.

      The water is boiling! It’s time to turn down the heat! Oligarchs and Business Interests have been turning up the heat on us for the past thirty years. We must jump out of the pot!


      • johninPCFL

        The boiled frog myth…google “snopes boil frog”. While I appreciate your position, the apathy that the frog is alleged to have is a total falsehood. The frog, in fact, desperately tries to escape until it dies.

        • Progressive Patriot

          Sorry johnin…

          The metaphor is still appropriate for our social context, fact or fiction. There has been a decades long subversive attack on the middle and working classes. The pot in which we find ourselves is starting to boil, and it’s time to get ourselves out.

          That being said, what is your intention in providing me with the correction? Have you tested the hypothesis yourself?

          • johninPCFL

            Yes, when I was 10 in the woods on a campfire. The frogs (or lizards) always got out.

            I correct urban myths when I see them. I also correct spelling and grammar. It’s a mental disorder…

          • Progressive Patriot


    • idamag

      the increased gun sales show that my right to kill people supercedes those childrens’ rights to grow up.

      • MrStoneheep

        Huh?? That’s really intelligent ! NOT!! And why these forums get out of hand. It’s OK to disagree – – IF we do it without the idiocy. The reason for the increase in gun sales since Friday is the basic principle of ALL sales of any type – Fear of loss or Want of gain.

        • idamag

          mrstone, fear, you stated it – fear. No longer the land of the free and the home of the brave, but the home of the scared.

        • neece00

          Home of the paranoid, ready to take the life of a 16 year old because he looks suspicious. Crazy comes in many levels.

    • The second amendment as ratified by the states reads: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

      It seems to me that a reasonable reading of the amendment could go like this: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed because a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state.

      That said, the authors of our Constitution and Bill of Rights in the 18th century could not imagine the arms situation we have today but they did envision a country with the rule of law. It is our responsibility here in the 21st century to use our common sense to be as wise as they were.

    • mbm

      While stricter gun control is necessary, especially in terms of banning assault weapons, it is short sighted to believe that further gun legislation is the only solution. Legal limitations will have an impact, indeed, however, weapons will still be obtained illegally. An equally important component in addressing the issue of violence is comprehensive mental health care reform. Services for the mentally ill, children and especially for those who come of age, have been cut to the bone and are dismally poor, leaving parents to fend for themselves and their disturbed children. Until this important issue is addressed, no amount of gun control will make a significant difference.

      • Del WS

        What makes it even more difficult than the lack of affordable, available mental health services, is correct advance diagnosis. How does anyone tell which of the volunteer firefighters will turn out to be an arsonist, which one of the “odd” kids will shoot a bunch of his schoolmates while another will turn out to be an introverted successful poet, which quiet college kid will kill himself or several other people, which fired employee will return to the workplace and turn it into a scene of massacre? We don’t have a reliable way of picking out those who are dangerous. The best we can do is try to help the minority who are correctly identified and try to limit the availability of weapons capable of killing a large number of victims in a short time. The dangerously troubled don’t wear ID badges proclaiming their disturbed minds and we just can’t immediately identify them until, too often, after they’ve acted.

        • mbm

          You have raised many important points, Del WS. Tragically, as a nation we owe improved mental health care to more than just the “minority who are correctly identified”, but need to vastly increase not only our diagnostic capabilities but our resources dedicated to treatment and management. Sadly, even our experts cannot agree on even the basics, as evidenced by the controversy among the psychiatric community over the newly released criteria of the DSM-5. While most with mental illness do not become mass murderers or serial killers, many do not receive adequate diagnosis or treatment. Our jails and prisons have become the largest warehouses of the mentally ill. Many have nowhere to go. We need also, to remove the stigma from mental illness. Also, it is unlikely that a quiet introvert, without other signs, wakes up one day and decides to shoot up a school. The signs were undoubtedly present long before the tragedy, if only those closest listened, observed, and not only were listened to but had adequate resources to assist them. When warnings from 3rd parties closest to the would be perpetrator have been heeded, tragedies have been avoided. They just don’t make the news as headlines. As important as our dismissal of national mental health care, is the far too easy access of guns. We are the only democracy on earth with an astounding number of gun homicides, and the only free society yet to address it. We have 30x the gun deaths of the UK, Australia; 10x India; 4x Switzerland, and yet we fearfully & zealously clutch our guns, adamantly extolling our rights, our freedoms, our precious 2nd Amendment. Are the Brits & Aussies any less free? Have they not solved the dilemma of black market weapons too? We find continued excuses to defend our homes, our way of life…at what expense? How many are we willing to sacrifice in the noble exercise of defending our freedom?

    • ottokristen

      I support Common Sense Legislation to End Gun Violence,.but this is not enough.Nobody can stop violence of certain people.If somebody wants to harm another person and have no way of obtaining a gun,he or she can use another weapon,which might not be as dangerous and deadly as a gun.Therefore no noncombatant except police and lawfully designated persons, should have an access to a handgun or a semi or automatic gun.Hunting guns, after thorough check ,excluded.
      There is a psychological difference on using a gun (which is impersonal and sometime used from far away) or using a knife,which creates person to person situation.Take it from somebody who had a special training and who handled from 85m/m (about 3″diam) antiaircraft semiautomatic gun,parabola 9 mm, through to scorpion 7.65 m/m,to target championship 22m/m.rifle.But there is a question: Can you,my American friends,take it sitting down?Many top nations in the world took it.And there was a positive difference.

    • lawabidingcitizen

      Strict gun laws have not helped in places like Brazil or Mexico. They rely on the protection of law enforcement and most of the time they don’t even bother trying to stop the crime. In fact their level of corruption and murder/violent crimes are much much higher than ours.
      Again the problem is not the guns nor the availability of them. The problem is society. Just look at what is on TV. Garbage, all of it. Useless trash that we let fill our minds. People used to be responsible. The majority was Morally sound but even then things happened. Things are thousands of times worse now days Morality and responsibility have gone out the window.
      I have my guns for one reason and one reason only. Protection from man and beast. Beast if I’m camping. Man/beast if I’m home or on the road. I do not have them for hunting. I do not wish to take another mans life. I hate violence and confrontation. I avoid it as best I can. I am not a prideful man. But I will defend myself, my family and those around me when nobody else is available.
      I hope for your sake you are never confronted by someone that values your life to be the same as the trash in the street. But I hope if you ever are confronted, that there will be someone willing and able to defend you and those around them be it Police or Sheepdog.
      We have created our environment. We have turned our backs on our neighbors. We have desensitized ourselves to the need of others. We are to blame. We have made our bed and now we must sleep in it.

    • Yes dooms day, dooms day is what we hear from the repbs. Obama is going to show up on your steps and take away all your guns. Some people have enough black powder and amunition in their houses to blow up city blocks. I think they are afraid of liberals.

    • smokehill

      The usual knee-jerk whining by some liberal fool who knows nothing about guns but actually thinks his opinion has merit.

      Apparently you believe that criminals and crazies are going to abide by gun laws, even though any idiot with ten bucks worth of tools can make a hi-capacity magazine in his basement — which is irrelevant anyhow since swapping mags takes less than a second. After all, banning drugs has worked so well …. oh, wait ….

      Any psycho with a mission to kill the innocent en masse doesn’t need a Bushmaster, as New Yorkers found out long ago when one angry guy with a gas can killed 87 at the Happyland night club. If you somehow magically manage to keep guns out of the hands of nuts, just wait until you see the horrific results of some punk bringing a shoulderbag full of homemade napalm bottles into the school (which metal detectors won’t pick up), and heaves one into each classroom as he walks through. The survivors will indeed envy the dead ones.

      You obsess over a non-solution because you are afraid to deal with the real one — that a lot of people walking the streets should be locked up in rubber rooms, but in our o-so sensitive idiocy, we purposely do nothing until after they murder someone.

      You don’t like guns? Fine. Don’t buy one. But you have zero business telling me or my family, in a rural area, how we are prepared to deal with coyotes, bears, or the human predators you breed in urban & suburban areas.

    • idamag

      A scared paranoid person with a gun is a dangerous person.

  • You know ,, as much as this tragedy, saddens me,, the blame game is even more maddening. Mental health, yes a major issue, but in all to many states where you have the GOP, running the state, mental health has faced cuts, why tax cuts. School budgets cuts, why tax cuts. Then add stupid gun laws,,, I do not understand why anyone would need a military style weapon, with max load ammo magazines.
    Lets see how this fits,,,You hand the keys to a dump truck, loaded with gas,,to a drunk, then just to ensure things go wrong, give him a bottle of 151,,,make sure it downed,, then say drive down the middle of a 4th of July parade, hoping no one gets hurt…
    Wake up America

    • MrStoneheep

      Good analogy. So are you suggesting we illegalize the animate or the in-animate object(s), i.e. the dump truck, the gas, the 151, or the person driving the truck while intoxicated?

      • old_blu

        The guy driving the truck drunk is already illegal, I think he’s saying don’t make it worse by throwing fuel to the fire.

        • MrStoneheep

          I knew his point, and the “Good analogy” was tongue in cheek. Yes, the drunk driver is already illegal, as is killing people by any means, truck or gun. To attempt acceleration to a GOP caused problem is ludicrous and pointless. Last I noticed, Connecticut is a Democratically controled state.
          The country is too divided to begin with and to drive a wedge more deeply makes no sense. Personally, Repub, Dem, I care not which, I’d like to see our Representatives and Senators go to Washington and vote their CONSTITUENTS desires, not their House or Senate party leaders desires. The party leader didn’t elect them. (before you start – I voted Obama, but am beginning to wonder why due to the way he is refusing to cut spending)

          • old_blu

            I’m with you on why they all vote (I don’t care what side) for the good of the party and not the good of America.

            And I can give you my take on why the President doesn’t cut spending, but it would be way off topic.

          • idamag

            mrstone, so let us make man-killing guns illegal to those who have no reason to kill others, except for their paranoia.

  • BillFromPA

    Would someone please tell what the Bright Side of the American Gun Cult is? Not that it matters, but I’m a deer hunter, owner of 3 hunting rifles and I’ll be buying a new bolt action scoped rifle after the holidays. Not all gun owners are gun nuts.

    • idamag

      Bill, absolutely, not all gun owners are gun nuts. I inherited six guns from my father and my spouse had three. None of us ever wanted to kill anyone, nor did we sleep with a loaded gun and tremble all night. You don’t sound like a gun nut.

  • amazonfan

    Good piece. One thing. It’s irrelevant, but the films you mentioned are not “cartoonish revenge comedies”.

  • nobsartist

    Didnt bush let the assault weapon ban lapse and then lie us into two wars, turn our nation over to the oil companies and banks and then bankrupt us?

    bush, the gift that keeps on giving.

  • old_blu

    1. We need a way to track guns from the time they are sold the first time. (I want to know where that criminal got that gun)

    2. We need to make sure and do a background checks on everyone who buys a gun. (Not just when they are sold from a gun dealer)

    3. We need to get rid of the high capacity clips. (I have been shooting for years and never needed 60 to 100 rounds for anything)

    • MrStoneheep

      No.1 – – – – – Already in place. Has been for years.
      No.2 – – – – – Private sales – Constitutional issues- – – since you mention crminals in No.1, I assume it to be here too, and somehow, I think that to be difficult at 2:30am in The Hood.
      No.3 – – – – – Right on !

      • idamag

        mrstone, since when do they track guns? For years, there have been ideas for registering guns, but the paranoids think if there gun is registered the government is going to come and get it. Never has any government official advocated taking peoples’ guns. This lie works well for the NRA who works for gun manufacturers.
        Forty percent of the guns are sold without background checks.

  • cwalter911

    As a society we have a tendency to view problems as having one casual factor. The first reaction is gun control which is needed, but we should not forget that to solve this problem and others requires an analysis which looks at multiple causal factors. A common thread through this tragedy and those preceeding it has been the insanity of the cultprit. One wonders why these individuals were not in an institution? Obviously their victims and theirselves would be alive today if this was the case.

    If one speaks to mental health professionals one finds two problems. Since the 1970s there has been a movement to deinstitutionalize those with mental health problems. Part of the rationale has been to get them functioning. The other has been the cost of this care. The second problem has been the difficulty of commiting an individual to care. We have been more concerned about the rights of the individual that the rights of its citizens to protection from their acts.

    Can we now address these problem areas?

    With respect to gun control: Did we not as a society ban fully automatic weapons during the early 1930s? The license to own an fully automatic weapon is extremely expensive and has to be paid each year. The purpose was to price these weapons out of the hands of the average individual.

    Can we not apply the same logic to semi-automatic weapons?

    In England after a similar tragedy hand guns were banned. England’s murder rate for the whole year is slightly more for the whole country than were killed in this latest tragedy in one day. We lose more people to gun violence in one year than were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan during the whole campaigns. Paradoxically your probability of survivial is better in a combat zone than at home.

    Now I am no stranger to weapons. I served in the army for thirteen years and was a member of my unit’s rifle team. I know how to handle a weapon and enjoy the target shoot.

    But I cannot see the logic and rationale for the semi-automatic weapon or the pistol with a large capacity magazine. On the battlefield it is a necessity, but one does not hunt with these weapons. In fact, the hunting laws protect the animal better than we protect the individual. Duck or goose hunting you can only have three shots, not thirty.

    I would prefer to see hunting made more sporting, muzzle loading or bows only. The rationale is to make it more sporting. The modern rifle is too efficient. Now if you complain that this will make the sport more difficult, then my reply is that if our native American brothers were able to feed their families with a bow and arrow shouldn’t the brave hunter be just as skillful?

    Now shouldn’t we as a society make it more difficult to kill? As long as the technology to kill is extremely efficient a strict gun law will have limited effect. Now didn’t Conneticut have strict gun laws? Weren’t these weapons purchased within the system? And, did they prevent the tragedy?

    I think as a society we need to look at the whole picture: the mentally ill and weapons. This is a deadly combination and we have seen this problem repeatedly. Isn’t it time to reform the whole system?

    • MrStoneheep

      Excellant post. Started to get a little concerned the first time you mentioned semi-autos, but you later link it with high capacity magazines, so now we agree. You see, I LIKE my 1100, and as you corrctly point out, for migratories, only 3 rounds can be inserted and can’t ever hold more than 5. Never in a hunting situation did I find need for fivfe, so most of the time, I use O/U’s. This isn’t a hunting forum, so won’t go farther on the primitives.
      Yeah, totally agree on the ban of high caps.

    • Agreed, 100%. Protection for society as whole has to supercede individual rights. That is where we -as a country – have gone wrong. When it comes to mental health, parents are the first line of defense. They need to be able to access our almost non existent mental health system, , free of charge, if necessary. This should be our country’s no. one priority.
      We need to reform our laws, so that mental illness can be dealt with as it should. Institutionize when necessary, in order to protect society at large.

      Instead of getting the help this mother needed, she turned to self help, by buying guns, a decision that cost her life.

      Our second priority needs to be mandatory conflict resolution classes taught in all schools, public or private, starting with kindergarden and continuing thru the end of High School.
      Parents can’t teach skills which they don’t have themselves.

      Third priority should be sensible gun laws. Nobody needs assault weapons in their homes, and ammunution should be restricted and heavily taxed.

      Fourth priority needs to be curbing the violence our (even the smallest) children are exposed to in daily life, i.e. video games and movies and “music”. It desensitizes our children to violence and makes it “normal”, which is not a good thing for society.

      If we as a society are to have a future without constant fear, we M U S T act and change all of the above.

  • Nick559

    If we’re going with more gun control, that’s only half the solution. We also need mental health control over people who commit these horrible acts. Of course the ACLU and others will jump all over this but the rest of us have a right to be protected from these people too. Don’t we?

  • The above article is spot-on. I hunted for a number of years, and used both a shotgun and .22 rifle and did just fine. Shooting a groundhog with a .223 Bushmaster and emptying a clip into your quarry is not hunting, or sport – it’s sadistic mayhem for the sake of lurid thrills. I’ve never, ever heard of a hunter being killed by a charging goundhog and therefore justifying that hunters should carry an assault rifle just in case he would encounter one. Ban assault rifles, only law enforcement and the military should have them. Don’t give me that bull crap that criminals with assault rifles are commiting these mass shootings therefore the public needs to be like armed. If I’m not mistaken, none of these shooting of schools and churches and movie theaters were gang or criminal related, they were sick individuals who had easy access to devastating weaponery. Large capacity pistols are bad enough, but military style assault rifles are just plain insanity in the hands of the general public.

    • MrStoneheep

      Mr Stewart’s post above is spot on !! What is an “assault weapon” to begin with, by definiton? Originally, the far left started this diatribe with assault “TYPE” weapons, and after they had the legislators and uninformed public totally indoctrinated, they dropped the “type” and started calling them just “assault weapons”. Your own post demonstrates this. The military assault weapons are fully automatic, not semi-automatic.

      • idamag

        mrstone, we don’t care what the hell they call them, they are still assault weapons. Are you also going to argue as to how many angels can be put on the head of a pin?

      • Semi automatic can become a fully automatic with just a few adjustments so in the eyes of many of us there is really no difference between the two since semi can be upgraded to automatic.

        • MrStoneheep

          I realize this is a common belief of the non-gun owning public and those unfamiliar with weaponry. It just happens to be a MISconception. Not a bit true. I’ve been told you can make a semi into a full auto by filing the sear. All you’ll do is create a pricey repair job for your local gunsmith . The
          weapon would be useless until repaired. NO, you canNOT turn a semi into a full auto. If you think you can, I’ll buy the semi auto weapon of your choice and you do so in my presence. I’ll give it to you, but if you cannot do so and render it worthless, you pay me twice what I paid for it. Fair?

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            False Information;

            Most military-styled assault semi-auto weapons can be modified to be able to be operated as fully auto. It does take some machining knowledge (which I don’t have) and after market parts (which I wouldn’t buy) to complete the modification.

            Even, semi-auto handguns can be modified in the same fashion.

            Most people do not have the machinery nor the knowledge to do the modification though. And, they’re illegal as hell if you get caught with one that has been modified.

            You also comprimize the accuracy of the weapon anyway.

            But, within certain closed circles, those who do have that knack to be able to do these modifications and don’t mind breaking the law, can and do routinely.

            From what I’ve heard, it’s not that difficult. And, if I remember correctly, years ago, I read in a few gun magazines how to do it. But, I don’t keep up on this type of information and haven’t seen any articles pertaining to this in a long time.

            But, I would imagine, if one really wanted to find info on how to do it, it would be findable on the net.

          • MrStoneheep

            You had me interested for a bit here, thinking I might be learning something, and possibly you still can keep me interested. Please tell us the “few gun magazines” and which issues that was giving this information. I’d like to see it. I really cannot imagine any magazines’ legal advisors allowing such information to be printed due to liability considerations. Where you really lost my interest, however, is when you used “From what I’ve heard…..”.
            This is again perpetuation of a myth by the uninformed. If you have first hand knowledge by accomplishing this feat, please advise and if you ARE correct please give the source. I can admit when I’m wrong, but I do like having some proof other than “I heard”. If there’s someone out there that has truly done this, maybe they’ll step up, huh?

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            I am a Machinist by trade. I know it can be done. But, “I” don’t have that knowledge only because I don’t associate with that type of crowd. Besides, if I were to get caught doing something like that, I’d loose my shop and wind up in the Federal Pen for years. Not worth it to me.

            But, I do remember a long time ago, when you could buy magazines that showed in specific detail how to modify semi’s of that day so they could be used in auto mode. I think this might have been around when Kennedy got shot. Haven’t seen it in years though. I was only a Junior High kid at the time. Granted, this was years ago.

            But, I would also imagine, knowing the ingenuity of people and with the right equipment and after market parts, anything can be done.

            All I’m saying is I’ve heard that it can be done to nearly any of these semi-autos. It really wouldn’t surprise me at all.

            Yes, I also would love to hear from someone here who actually has that knowledge with actual valid examples. But, I doubt, someone who does wouldn’t come right out in a public forum and admit it. IF they did, it would condemn the entire semi-auto gun industry.

            What I question more than anything is exactly WHY a “hunter” would want a extra-capacity magazine for a semi-auto anything, let alone even using a semi-auto Military-Styled weapon for hunting in the first place.

            In Ohio, a rifle to hunt with is not allowed in the first place, other than Black Powder and only during limited times during hunting season.

            The weapon’s main intent and design is not to shoot Deer, that’s for sure. I used to be a Vendor at Gun Shows. And, the hubbub over it was not in favor of hunting. People bought these weapons knew fully well they weren’t buying them for hunting. People bought them for it’s “People Killing” capacity. And, they weren’t afraid to admit it either.

            Even some of the other Gun Dealers would admit that it was the darker side of Gun Shows. Some of them thought it was great fun, thinking they were fooling the general public.

            Most of them in private conversations would admit they were only selling them because it was a business, nothing more. They didn’t give a crap about the morality of it whatsoever.

            That’s one of the reasons I stopped being a Vendor at the Shows. I just didn’t want to be a part of that culture anymore.

          • MrStoneheep

            Michael, thank you. I really do mean that, too. It’s great to have some conversation with an informed person from the “other” side that isn’t so on the “other side”. I agree with practically all you say and up until recently, did with ALL you say. I own over 100 guns, and only two are semi-automatic, thye two semi’s being two 1100 Remingtons, one in .410 and one in 12 gauge. All the rest are either pump, side by, or O/U’s in the shotguns and all
            but one of the rifles are bolt actions, the odd ball being the first weapon I ever owned, an
            African use double rifle.
            The one point I’ve changed my opinion on is the high cap magazines. I am a vet, but my carry weapon was a REAL AK47, not one of these look alikes or an M16. It was correctly pointed out to me by one of those folks after another previous shooting spree, arguing the size of the clip (magazine) is a exercise in futility. He then asked me, “Captain, how long would it take you to dump an empty and insert a full clip during an encounter?”. Point well made.
            As to refabricating parts or fabricating new replacement parts, OK, maybe some can, but why would you? To the individual that doesn’t care about laws, I can fairly easily locate and purchase fully automatic M16’s and AK47’s within an hour of my house right now. Illegal, yes, but those folks don’t care. Luckily, you and I do care.
            Personall, I don’t have (or see) a need FOR ME to own a weapon that is attempting to look like a military assault weapon, and I’ve no need for more than 3 shots at any time. Rarely, can I remember even needing three. With a high power, one does me OK out to about 500 with the scopes I use, but I also want the ‘extra’ in the event I were to make a bad shot. I can’t stand seeing an animal suffer.
            Enjoyed the conversation and I defer to the machinist. I’m wrong in that instance.Thanks.

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            Can’t post a lot here due to space.


            That African double barrel, I think used to be called an Elephant Gun.

            Very expensive and had a huge shell.

            I think they are still made today in the UK and only very limited numbers.

            Did you ever hear of a Punt Gun?

            Just curious:)

            I’ve had people contact me wanting me to make one. Within my shop capacity, quite impossible.

          • MrStoneheep

            The double rifles come in a myriad of calibers, some down in the .275 area, like a .275 H&H Mag. Most are big bores, however, and were/are called Elephant guns, but are the choice of most PH’s in Africa. They’re also good on any of the other of the Big Five. Truly,
            I prefer a bolt gun in .416 Rigby, .458 Winnie, or .460 Weatherby, and this is due to the fact the double rifle is a “regulated’ gun, meaning the barrels discharged bullets are built to intersect at only one particular point. I like a rifle with a scope and if hunting dangerous game, then I still prefer the bolt gun, but with express sights (multiple leaves each sighted to a different range) and a standing bar. Yeah, they ARE pricey. There are some very good ones made right here in the good ol’ US of A. Churchill (Oklahoma I think) makes a VERY
            good double gun.

            Punt gun. Yes, I’ve heard of , but don’t recall how or when. Is that what the old feather hunters of the southern swamps used eons ago, like in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s?
            Seems to me I recall the Ryan’s building one on that show from Colorado of the Ryan family and their gun store that was just taken off the Discovery Channel due to the mass killings in CT.
            I’ll check some of my old sources tonite, too. I’ve heard the term.
            Interesting about this Breaking News of NBC where our discussion of earlier may become not pertinent. It seems the police have now reported there were 4 handguns and ONLY
            4 handguns found inside the school. The AR15 Asssault Type Rifle wasn’t inside the school. My neighbor says this dated information that came out Thursday, so I don’t know what’s really happening there. Won’t it be a strange turn around if this becomes truth?
            Still 20 poor little innocent lives along with 6 other senseless deaths. A black day in our countries history, for sure.

          • Michael Kollmorgen
  • Part of the problem is the motive for assault weapons. Testosterone starved people want to “show” their manhood, and just having the weapons provides a libido boost. But like any dangerous poisons in a house, it is only a matter of time that exposure to them will result in needless and stupid deaths.

    • idamag

      Grunge, you said a lot there. Most of the problem is the motive for assault weapons.

  • Knee-jerk gun control reactions are not productive. There are hundreds of gun laws on the books, yet these things still happen. That Bushmaster AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle that was legal in Connecticut. A state with strict gun laws. It is not designated as an assault weapon. In fact, there is no such weapon. Assault weapon was made up by the left to make guns sound ominous. There is no new law that can be put on the books that would have prevented this tragedy. None! We need to address how to deter future attacks like this one and the one in Aurora. IMHO, that means increased site security. These cowards do not attack locations where armed guards patrol the area or are even present. Let’s be sensible about preventing future attacks instead of feel good new gun control laws that are ineffective.

    • MrStoneheep

      Amen !!

    • johninPCFL

      Strict laws? You do know that you can legally buy a grenade launcher for the Bushmaster in Connecticut, right?

      Connecticut’s laws are more strict than Missouri. They are more strict than Virginia, where you can buy a gun at a gun show without any ID at all. They are not, in any other sense, strict.

      • MrStoneheep

        John, answer a question for me, and I’m quite serious. I don’t live there and am truly wondering if this could possibly be true. OK, I’ll believe you when you say a grenade launcher for an AR 15 can be legally purchased in Ct. Your posts are fairly good. The question behind that, however; are the grenades for the launcher legal in CT? I really don’t believe grenades are legally possessed anywhere else in the US of A by the general populace. I may be wrong. Never thought of trying to buy one.

        • johninPCFL

          I’ve seen grenades used by Red Jacket Firearms in Louisiana (on their TV series) with law enforcement present (meaning that they can legally get them) but I don’t know the process, or what licenses are required. Presumably, if it’s only a federal restriction, then with proper authorization you could get them into Ct also. I have a 40mm inert round made for the military as a trainer.

          Full auto weapons are also illegal in most places. You can get them with a FFL, and you can shoot them in some states if the owner has a FFL.

          • MrStoneheep

            On the grenades, I assumed there had to be an LEO involved. Thanks for confirming that, but honestly, I can make something practically as lethal with standard household products. On the fully automatic weapons, yes, one can have, but needs a Class A Restricted Weapons license – for each one. Heavy, heavy restrictions as to movement and use. Perhaps the owner also has to have the standard FFL, I don’t know. Makes sense but I do know it’s more than JUST the FFL. The annual tax is pretty heavy as well. Used to be $300.00 each, but I think it’s higher these days.

          • johninPCFL

            Thanks for the info. My last check for owning an automatic was in the mid-1980s, and back then all you needed was the FFL. My last use of an automatic was last summer in Las Vegas. Great shooting range/gun store there…

            When I was a teen, there was a place called Boulevard Laboratories in Chicago that sold all manner of great stuff – magnesium powder, sulfur powder, zinc powder, aluminum powder, chlorates and perchlorates, etc. Using any of it today, as we did then, would draw a long stretch in Leavenworth…

          • MrStoneheep

            The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
            If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
            you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
            If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

            —- File information ———–
            File: DEFAULT.BMP
            Date: 21 Sep 2001, 13:59
            Size: 358 bytes.
            Type: Unknown

          • johninPCFL

            Ahhh…getting fancy? Now you have to describe the photo.

            Or put it up on photobucket and send the link. In code form, of course, because you can’t post links here…

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            When I was a kid 50 years ago, I had a friend who was a budding Chemist. In his basement along one wall was his collection of chemicals. You name it, he had it.

            In the name of Child Safety, you can’t get these anymore. Recently, most of these are banned under the guise of National Security.

            Here in Canton Ohio, just 15 years ago, there was a hardware store that sold Dynamite. Sadly, no longer.

          • johninPCFL

            I wanted to be a chemist starting when I was 6. I mixed all manner of crap together, learning how to make chlorine from bleach and peroxide, bombs from pool chlorine powder, 100% nitric acid to make nitrocellulose, etc. LOL It was (maybe) lucky that I couldn’t get dynamite…

            I made all kinds of bombs, and like I said, that would have landed me in jail today. There was a kid locally that was arrested, tried, and jailed a couple of years ago for setting off a plastic pipe bomb.

            I got my first degree in chemistry and worked for GE in one of their DOE plants. Sort of graduated from M-80s to the Pershing II with 20kT.

          • Michael Kollmorgen


            Wouldn’t surprise me to learn you know the kid I used to know 50 years ago.

            The kid I knew back them, now probably works for the biggest companies in the US, building who knows what out of whatever chemicals they use.

            I won’t say his name in here, but as a kid he lived in Maple Hts. Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland.

            He’s probably in his early 60s. I’m 63.

            Yea, I remember a few formulas. One was mixing Iodine and Bleach.

            I don’t mess with it much myself. Too dam dangerous.

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            I’ve seen actual military grade grenades, land mines, even the trippers for land mines at gun shows.

            The Grenades have had their explosives removed. However, the pull pin is still intact and active. Yes, it can be “modified’ to be perfectly useful.

            The mines have all the powder, explosives removed from them. But, they can be “activated” with the right knowledge, which I can do without much trouble.

            I won’t say how.

            Claymore Mines are even available.

            Anyone can purchase these weapons. They are usually called Collectors Items. Mostly they are used in war re-inactment clubs, or for someone who just likes to collect them as items of interest.

      • idamag

        John, Our gun laws are mostly eyewash to appease the masses.

  • Ayaya Worenwu

    To minimize unnecessary violence such that aweful school shooting in America and Western World, single parenthood and gun rights must be minimized. Kids ought be raised by one capable male and woman. How do you fit in well without growing up looking up to someone or some persons as your role model? Commercializing divorce or using children from different parents to make money from the system is one big problem that is under-emphasized on policy grounds. Lawmakers must now wake up on these social cholera.

  • jetfuel4

    Dominick, you like many or your brethren are totally dependent on an artificial system. Your life and your family’s life are completely at its mercy. WHEN a systemic breakdown occurs, such as hurricane Katrina, what will you do until that system can be restored? When the Japanese had the nuclear plant issue, there system maintained because of their culture….we have little to no cultural values left. When the National Guard or the police are either overwhelmed or non-existent, what will you and your neighbors do? We have a problem there is no doubt but what you guys will create in the end will be your own suffering. I and my neighbors have no intent on suffering along with you.

    • Sand_Cat

      We’ll try to keep things from getting to that point rather than arming up and retreating into self-righteous complacency and voting for people guaranteed to make things worse in every election, as you obviously do.

      • jetfuel4

        “We’ll try to keep things from getting to that point”…ya…worked well for the Bosnians, Katrina, Rwandans, Jews…..what and idiot.

  • In CIVILIZED countries, guns are controlled. In this country, NONE OF US IS SAFE. Period. I’m so sick and tired of the NRA and the repugs who behave like cowboys from the 1800’s. The constitution was writting at a time when a man owned a musket – period. NOT an automatic gun that shot dozens of bullets at a time. Time we chanced the consitution. No if’s about it. Unless we do it, we advertise to the world what a backward place we are. I guess the NRA and repugs love that because they do it all the time with their refusal to treat women as equals. It’s at a point now that a mother and/or a grandmother will need to ask of any of their children’s friends, “Do you have weapons in your home?” before allowing a child to visit there. Oh, I know old white men who are brain dead won’t care. Already know that.

    • jetfuel4

      I’m so sick of peoples “musket” logic….you have the internet now….do you really need the right to assemble anymore? Idiocy…..

      • MrStoneheep

        Jetfuel4, it’s a total waste of time and effort to have a battle of wits with the handicapped. What he/she calls itself is very appropriate.

        • Sand_Cat

          He sounds a lot more reasonable than some of the posters on the other side of the question.

  • According to Anthony Scalia the words “well regulated militia” DONT mean anything. He specifically cited his disregard for those words when he was ruling on gun rights a few years ago. So much for that other clause of the Constitution that requires a certain marjority of the states” approval before amending the Constitution. We are a complicated society and I like that but we absolutely have to get real about this issue. I dont advocate banning guns . The problem is people, as the argument goes, but we CANT ban people. The issue is the TYPES of guns and the magazine capacities. Civilians are over armed to say the least. In one European location 16 elementary children and their teacher were killed in this manner (late 90’s). The result was a total ban on civilian ownership of guns. There have been no more attacks in that country. The people here that dont want to compromise on this issue had better realizie that the harder they push, the more force the pendulum will have when it swings back; and it will swing.

  • howa4x

    The right wing who claim to be patriots, but want assualt weapons for use against the goverment they fantasize about, that is coming to get them. Most local police can’t get away from the Dunkin doughnuts, so I don’t know who they are thinking about. Since the mistakes at Ruby Ridge and Waco, the ATF never pulled another raid, so it won’t be them. Maybe it’s the UN, you know those crack troops from India, west Africa, and Bangladesh. Very scary aren’t they. Maybe its the ongoing black community riot they see on TV everyday. The reality is these gangs never leave the saftey of their neighborhood where no one would dare tell on them. So who are they arming up for? Between all the lies of FOX, the paranoia of Limbaugh, Beck, and the stupidity of Palin, these people are really scared, and have been made to believe the government is coming into their house to take their guns. So let’s start with the right wing media bubble and ask that they tune down the rhetoric a notch or two , because these mass killing are just as much their responsibility as the shooters.Also the republican party has to be less dangerous to the middleclass, and start approaching issues with sanity, instead of dellusions

    • idamag

      how, at a meeting, a couple of months ago, a woman said, “I was listening to Glen Beck and I am scared to death. What are we going to do?” I said, “Stop listening to Glen Beck.” another person said, “Let’s not discuss politics.” Yes, they are scaring people into not being rational.

  • latebloomingrandma

    Living my whole life in PA, I understand about hunting. It’s part of the culture, though I never participated in it. What I never understood is the country’s love affair with guns. We have 5% of the world population and have the most guns per capita than any other nation. Is this our definition of a free country? Where children can get gunned down? How does this make us different than Afghanistan, a war zone? The next country with the most guns is Yemen. When I hear Yemen, I think of total anarchy. There is too much obsession with the 2nd amendment. If we were to interpret it as the founders envisioned, we would have the right to keep muskets. The NRA seems to ignore the part where it states a well REGULATED militia is necessary to a free state. Since we no longer have minute men, isn’t the well regulated militia the National Guard? What about our police force, of which there was none in the 18th century? Personally, guns don’t make me feel “safe.” If I knew my next door neighbor had an arsenal like Mrs Lanza, I would be pretty scared. All these automatic weapons around when our society has mentally unbalanced people walking the streets and short tempered jerks or bullies with a few 6 packs, and we have chaos. If we want to be that exceptional country many people think we are, we need to finally put some common sense into our laws.

  • I say if you would like to have a AK47 of your own that is good with me , you should be held responsibile for it regadless of where it turnsed up or for what lives it has taken or for what damage it has done to others people or property . This would be your personal property for what ever reason it should turn up in the hands of some crime seen it your baby, if it does the crime you serve the time. and then a ak47 wouldn’t look so good on your wall or in your gun cabnet.
    From a 82 year old that was reised with a 16 gage shotgun and a 22 rifel hanging on the wall that
    was off limits to me and if I wonted my behind beat that was one way to get it, you know when you are helt soley responsable for any thing it does not look so good to you or you come to the consulsion that the responibilitye is not worth the wonts.
    Now I am 82 years old my spelling is like every thing ealse if it dont hurt it dont work, you have got to remember I was borned back in the day when the air was clean & sex was dirty, I should get a Hello for that. Dont you think?

    • MrStoneheep

      Well said regardless of spelling. The thought is straight up!!

    • old_blu


    • Del WS

      Make that two HELLOS from here — one from my spouse and the other from me!

  • The first thing we can do is have respect for each other, I mean veneration for everyone mentally disturbed, color, race, religion and regard for Suzan Rice.

    • Sand_Cat


  • montanabill

    A gun was used for those killings. But the gun was not the cause. The cause was a young man afflicted with a form of autism known as Asperger’s Syndrome. A young man with an uncertain future and a mother just about out of help options. We have an epidemic of autism and it’s related brain affecting cousins, including fetal alcohol syndrome. Where are the questions about this epidemic? Why has it become so prevalent? Where can people go to get help for their children? Where do parents go when a child moves into young adulthood and then adulthood? There are therapists and special schools for the young, but once they move to the teen years, the available help diminishes rapidly and all but disappears once a teen becomes an adult. Where is the clamor to find the causes of this terrible epidemic? Where is the clamor for help for all ages of those with mental afflictions?

    Guns are an easy target, but this boy was afflicted by fears, and in an Asperger’s case, it feeds over and over on itself. He would have taken action with or without a gun because his reality was not rational. You probably have an autism spectrum case in your family or know someone who does. It is truly epidemic and that is the problem we ought to be addressing. Get Congress to work on something that can be truly a cause of violence, not a side issue.

    • old_blu

      Bill I wish we could get Congress to work on anything.

      • montanabill

        You watch. We are going to get all kinds of faces in front of the cameras with new ‘gun control’ proposals. But nary a one about the real cause of mass killings, mental illness. A law will be passed and everyone will feel happy something was done, until the next incident. Then, we will do the same failed routine once again.

    • ExPAVIC

      MT BILL

      There you go again with your ultra-right wing gibberish. Without the killer weapon in the hands of a human being that tragedy would not have happened.
      Not only should sale of the such guns be banned, but existing killing weapons and their extended magazines should be confiscated, melted and the metal used for useful purposes. One purpose being the forming of a monument to those 20 slain children who gave theirs lives so that reasonable, civilized guns laws can finally be written for our country.
      As a life-long hunter and gun sportsman, I find the assault-class weapon to be utterly useless as well as dangerous in anyone’s hands.

      • MrStoneheep

        I’m curious. Would you feel the same if the semi automatic weapon’s magazine could hold no more than 5 or 6 rounds? I’m a Obama voting left of center Democrat, not the ultra-right wing person you call Montana Bill, and I agree with what he says here That weapon in the hands of a human being killer without the high capacity magazine is the same as many of the well respected hunting pieces. In Viet Nam, and I think still today, 500 Mossbergs, 870 and 1100 Remingtons were used as military weaponry. Should we now consider them assault weapons as well?

        • Sand_Cat

          As someone pointed out in a comment to another posting on this site, his son can remove and replace small clips on his weapons quickly enough to maintain a rate of fire comparable to someone with a large magazine, but most probably can’t. But I suspect most reasonable people would not be as eager to ban such weapons outright, but I think most of us would like to see it made at least as difficult to obtain a lethal weapon as it is to obtain a legal driver license, with extra efforts to weed out the crazies.

          At this point, there are so many legal assault weapons out there that I’m not sure a total ban would accomplish much anyway: the nuts could steal as many as they need, or buy them from others who have stolen them or obtained them legally in the past.

          To address MontanaBill’s point (and we “call him Montana Bill” because that is the name he has chosen to use), the US healthcare system is a disgrace, and the mental healthcare system even more so. It’s not that there are no good facilities or qualified doctors and nurses; it’s at least partly the fact that the “death panels” at health insurers choose not to treat many illnesses, and the companies that buy group coverage either exclude of severely restrict coverage of some illnesses, especially mental illnesses. And as a liberal as you claim to be, you should know that the many budget cuts at all levels of government to fund yet more tax cuts for billionaires and multi-national corporations have targeted many things, mental health care being very prominent among them.

          So this is basically a mental problem it’s true. I’m sure many would disagree, but my own feeling is that the biggest problem is that we have an insane culture (Derrick Jensen calls it “omnicidal”) which strongly contributes to incredible levels of stress and frustration for most of us at best.

          And what kind of culture professes to revere the constitution and personal freedom, a culture in which -despite a growing list of problems – we still do choose our government, however bad our choices may be, yet has a very large group of people who – while claiming exceptional loyalty to the country and its ideals – feel they must arm themselve to the teeth to protect themselves from the very government they chose, or at least, have complete disrespect for others’ rights to avoid government-sponsored religious indoctrination, speech restrictions, and violation of their privacy, yet expect those same disrespected and contemptuously dismissed citizens to support their right to carry a personal arsenal down the street, into stores, restaurants, schools, malls, churches, and everywhere else?

    • Sand_Cat

      Yeah, I’m sure the guy could have taken his mini-pocket knife and slaughtered 20 plus people in a couple of minutes, right?

      No, inanimate objects are not the cause of these slaughters. People like the trolls who promote unlimited gun sales to the mentally deranged, or ready availability for theft by assembling private arsenals suitable for equipping an army special forces platoon are the “cause” that someone like this can obtain multiple rapid-fire assault weapons.

      I notice that you did not prescribe the usual insane and idiotic “solutions” to the problem commonly voiced by those of your political persuasion. Perhaps there really is hope for a civil dialog with you, unlike most of your “colleagues” who troll this site. In that spirit, you are quite correct that mental problems are the cause of these things. But there are two things that you should note

      1) There are many people who make comments on this site and in other forums who some of us rather loosely refer to as “insane” because their remarks, even without the ALL CAPS, misspellings, and profanity, reflect a profound ignorance of reality and propose solutions that are dangerously irrational and malicious. Probably all of these people could pass sanity tests and appear normal in their everyday lives to those who work with them daily, and the vast majority are no doubt ordinary frustrated people blowing off steam in an anonymous forum. But some of them may not be, and others may be pushed over the edge by stresses in their lives. At best, their remarks give encouragement to the truly insane, and their voting records probably assure that the lunatics will continue to easily obtain automatic or semi-automatic weapons.
      2) A lunatic armed with a knife is certainly dangerous, and if cool, calculating, and stealthy might kill a number of people over time. But he/she faces far greater risks: the victim must be approached more closely, and unless the person is extremely careful, he leaves clues at each site. But someone who decides to go out and kill a lot of people as a result of what may be a temporary attack of rage would be extremely unlikely to wound more than a couple of people, and unless he takes care to strike only at critical spots or stabs someone many times, the victims have a better chance of survival. Unarmed people would have a much better chance of subduing him, either by wrestling him down or seizing whatever improvised weapons might be at hand and knocking him unconscious. These options are not available when the killer has a rapid-fire weapon that can kill at considerable distance.

      • montanabill

        Before you get too facetious with your response, Google ‘school killings in China’ where they don’t have guns.

        I’m not aware of a single mass killing lately that hasn’t involved someone who wasn’t mentally impaired. For these people, the wanton violence graphically displayed on screens, be it movies, TV or computers, feeds their imaginations. If they are in the autism spectrum, they are already probably missing social skills and the ability to relate a lot of cause and effect. If they have become radicalized, they have an unbreakable obsession.

        Any gun built since 1866 can be used as a ‘rapid fire’ weapon, single shot guns excluded. Limiting the size of clips is the same as limiting the size of soft drink containers. Want more, buy more. A new clip can be loaded in the blink of an eye. It takes slightly longer to reload revolvers or tube feeds, but not much.

        Can we retrieve the millions upon millions of firearms already in the public’s hands? Absolutely not. But we can start to work on mental health, a sorely neglected field.

        As I mentioned previously, we have an epidemic of autism and autism spectrum illness. We need to find the reasons. We need programs from childhood through adult life for the afflicted to help them lead normal or near normal lives. Hopefully, someday a cure or at least the ability to break through the barriers these conditions create in the mind. Some work has been done, but far too little.

        Want to greatly reduce the incidence of mass killings? Don’t waste time and money on more silly gun laws. Enforce those already on the books and concentrate on resolving mental illness.

        • MrStoneheep

          Amen, MonatanaBill. Extremely well put.

        • Michael Kollmorgen

          I think the problem with mental illness is many-fold.

          #1 Reason – Our society is becoming so complex, it’s creating stresses that people can’t handle.

          #2 Reason – In Some communities, the level of various medications are becoming dangerous. Some of our Water Treatment Facilities can not filter them all out leading to and not only, mental illness, children maturing way too early and getting sicker with the Flu than you normally would.

          #3 Reason – The Woman’s liberation Movement has successfully succeeded in marginalizing the male psyche from an early age, nationwide. Boys are no longer allowed to be boys. Girls are now taught to become masculinized. In school today, most of the children who are on psychotropic Medication are boys who are deemed ‘overactive” by self-serving school counselors with a grudge against males and supported by the drug industry.

          Putting this all in combination;

          We have a mental health problem in this country. Mental facilities were closed down in favor of sending them all into regular prison populations. No cure, just incarceration.

          To commit someone to a mental facility it takes virtually an Act of Congress.

          Outreach services are practically null and void. And, when you can use it, its generally extremely expensive.

          The list is endless………………..

          • montanabill

            I’ll give you one more reason. We know a mother-to-be drinking alcohol runs the risk of a child with fetal alcohol syndrome. Since the 60’s, drug use has become very prevalent. If marijuana affects the brains of users, what can it do to a fetus?

            We were able to mostly conquer polio with the March of Dimes and a lot of work has been achieved by the American Cancer Society. Isn’t it time for a similar effort on mental illness?

          • Michael Kollmorgen

            I totally agree………

            I don’t know what Reefer does to a fetus. I would imagine any drug can affect it, even coffee and chocolate.

            But, I will tell ya, I did Reefer, sometimes quite a bit years ago. And, I don’t think I’m screwy yet.

            If you take a serious look at this, Reefer is much safer than Booze. I’ve never heard of someone smoking Reefer and getting in a Car Wreck or having family abuse problem.

  • leadvillexp

    If the Principal of that school had been armed and trained the out come may have ended differently. The type of weapon, capacity and ability to reload would not make a differance. He would have kept shooting until he ran out of ammo or was killed. The people he killed could not fight back.
    Another thought. 1993 WTC car bomb, 1995 Murrah Building fertilizer bomb, 1995 Tokyo subway home made sarin, 2001 WTC & Pentigon planes. These people are out to cause as much pain and terror as possible and what better way than to kill innocent children.
    Arm the teachers and train them door locks don’t work. The key is good training and volunteer armed teachers. Be prepared and don’t be sheep allowing yourself to be slaughtered. There is a world full of hateful people still out there.

    • idamag

      lead, and the principle of that school would have to sit with a loaded gun between her hands, at her desk, all day long.

  • I to am a member of the NRA and have been for years but that don’t make me think I need a Ak47 I go deer hunting every year I got a 306 I hunt with and got a box of 306 shells that I have had for years I get a deer or two every year and only need one shot each to bring them down now if I needed a AK47 to bring them down I would stop hunting for you never know what is just over behind what you are shoting at and a AK47 bullet will go a long way, A AK47 is just what it was
    built for a killing machine just point and hold the triger down you dont have to be a good makmans it will do the rest. The NRA is big busness Like Baseball Basketball, football it big money,just yeasterday I got a call fron the NRA she started out be telling me Obama would be in office for four more years & I said that was good then she started on gun control, I ask her why I needed a AK47 Or why any one needed a AK47 she said I dont know, I told her if she is represing the NRA she should have the anser for that ,then maby I could help her. The NRA Is a Wolf in Sheep clothing and dont forget that.

  • 13observer

    If you are going to call me and other “law abidding gun owners” the “GUN CULT” or “GUN NUTS” then perhaps you won’t mind me calling blacks “niggers” mexicans “wet backs” and gays “faggots”!

    • old_blu

      You just did, ignorant racist.

    • Michael Kollmorgen

      You are exactly the type of person I would arm myself to the teeth against.

      We don’t have to really worry about the criminal. We have YOU to deal with instead.

  • 13observer


    • Sand_Cat

      Wow, that’s a good reason to let people carry concealed weapons. I bet you have an arsenal, too.

  • leadvillexp

    To C Jay Lathem; learn how to spell.
    To 130bserver; It’s people who talk the way you do that do more harm to our cause than the anti gunners. You are driving right down their road. A civil discourse is needed when discussing these issues.

  • leadvillexp

    To idmag: Have you never heard of conceal carry. They make hand guns very small today and a trained person won’t have to have a Dirty Harry style firearm. Also that brave Principal had time to charge at the shooter and try to stop him before being gunned down. She put her unarmed self up against a armed person intent on killing people.

    • Sand_Cat

      I’m sure he and all the rest of us have. I have never been an enthusiastic supporter of gun-control except after listening to one of the many “responsible, law-abiding gun owners” who think their guns are needed as a defense against government tyranny, then go out and vote for tyrannical government in every election.

      Without concealed carry, one at least has the chance to realize his or her life and limb are in danger and vacate the area before the carrier arrives. When the nuts can hide their weapons, by the time they’re discovered, the lunatic is “up close and personal.”

  • fire Bhonner , yes fire them if they will not agree on the President proposal on guns.
    No one can bring back the 26 innocent children and brave adults murdered in Newtown — or the 34 Americans murdered with guns every day in this country. But we can demand that our leaders prevent future tragedies by taking immediate action to:
    1.Require a criminal background check for every gun sold in America.
    2.Requie a mental backgorund check.Ban the ownership of guns to those who has a history of drug abuse. look those who has rehab ,has a tendency to relapse . If they forget to take the mental medication. and if they got hold of a gun with 30 rounds magazine ,one pull on trigger will kill a lot of kids and adult .

    3.Ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines that enable mass killing.

    4.Make gun trafficking a federal crime, with stiff penalties for those who arm criminals.
    Demand that your members of Congress and the President support these priorities right now.

    • MrStoneheep

      good muslim, that is the type statement I’d expect from someone inside the Muslim nations, not here. Be a good American and believe in not only our right to question, but our obligation to question our leaders. Tried to buy a gun lately, like in the last several years? That BG check can take some time and IS done. Those with mental disorders ARE supposed to be on the ineligible list with the NCIC, but most aren’t because the psych’s stand behind the patient/doctor legal exemption list. Even with the meds, they are still ineligible, and should be. The “one pull of the finger” is incorrect. Semi autos don’t continue to fire until the trigger is released and pulled again. One pull, one shot. High capacity mags, I agree, and 10 is NOT the right number for legal. 6 is the most that should be allowed. Trafficking already is, but the present administration’s AG isn’t aboard here or he’d have to lock up a bunch of his in-house gun runners – Fast and Furious. Other than this, trafficking IS a Federal Crime. Knee jerk is NEVER a good idea, because then we pass meaningless laws that are un-enforceable or not enforced at all. We have enough of those already

      • Sand_Cat

        I do not attend gun shows, but I understand that it is legal to buy all sorts of weapons at them without background checks.

        • old_blu

          You are right Sand_Cat I was at a flea market in the NW just this year and saw many guns being sold with out even getting a name, I ask them if that was okay they said “this is a private flea market” there were a lot of guns being sold.

          • MrStoneheep

            Interestingly, I wish you would have called an LEO to the scene. That is NOT a Private Sale by definition of the term within the statute. That is VERY illegal. The question was about Gun Shows though, and a Gun Show is vastly different from a flea market.
            Even if he/she was having a private flea market as he/she said, an FFL is required and registration is required because it’s open to the public to attend. It’s a commercial venture. FFL required.
            All on here, if you see something like this going on, REPORT IT !!

  • Ban all firearms. They are not needed. Go door to door buying up the guns for a realistic price. Announce that anyone REPORTING a gun in the community will be paid the realistic price of the gun, not the owner who hadn’t sold it back when they had a chance. Guns would soon disappear.

    • MrStoneheep

      First, the US Government doesn’t have THAT much money when you say a realistic price. Secondly, are you so naive to believe the criminals are going to step forward with their’s?; and lastly, I would not want to live in a country where only the Government has the guns. We’ve seen what happens with that scenario too many times around the world. Just look at the Middle East right now.

      • Sand_Cat

        More chance the criminals would than any of the trolls on this site.

        I must confess to being seriously tempted to buy an assault weapon for protection, not from robbers or burglars or other common criminals, but from so-called “responsible, law-abiding gun owners.” One need spend only a couple of minutes at a gun shop or speak to a friend or relative to be astounded at how dangerously ignorant and paranoid some of the heavily-armed are (generally the more ignorant and paranoid, the more heavily armed).

        To all who would chastise me for this, please don’t. I said “some.” If the shoe fits, wear it, and an outraged response to this comment is a surefire indication the writer is at least on the border of the lunatic right.

        • MrStoneheep

          The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
          If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
          you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
          If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

          —- File information ———–
          File: DEFAULT.BMP
          Date: 21 Sep 2001, 13:59
          Size: 358 bytes.
          Type: Unknown

      • Michael Kollmorgen

        Most of the Middle East’s problems is that most of these countries have State-Sanctioned Religion, which by default, keeps these people ignorant and dependent on religion for guidance.

        Thankfully we don’t………YET!

        Please notice, in this country, the most devout christian-believing states are also usually the most poorest and are the most legally repressive states of their own citizens.

  • Almost everyone but the most rabid Liberals realize that guns aren’t the problem, but policies that hav allowed dangerous psycopaths to roam our streets and schools, movie theaters, etc. Had these people been institutionalized instead of “worrying about their (rights)”, these children and many other people would be alive today. People like thses are a danger to society and they may use many methods to kill lots of people, such as Timothy McVeigh using fertilizer and fuel. Want o ban those too? Violence allowed from hollywood and videos by the Liberal left also contribute to murder, as well as taking away parental rights, parental responsibility, broken families, and no prayer in schools. Where was the outrage over Fast & Furious killing 2 border patrol agents as well as many innocent people in Mexico? Where is the outrage from you Liberals that keep giving Amnesty to Illegal trespassers when the murder & rapes committed by them are astounding, much worse than even Sandy hook. In Wisconsim alone, 600,000 hunters are armed and “nobody is killing anyone”, it isn’t guns stupid, it’s the maniacs loose in our deteriorating society by Liberal do-gooders.

    • Sand_Cat

      Those rabid psychopaths shouldn’t be able to get assault weapons, but somehow – despite that everyone but “rabid liberals” realizes – such people find a corncupia of lethal weapons available by multiple legal and illegal means.

      And of course, everybody but lunatic right-wing Fox-news suckers knows that “Fast and Furious” was initiated by the Bush administration and ended by the Obama, and that the whole attempt to use it was and is a pathetic example of what the ignorant, insane, and just plain stupid come up with and cling to when confronted by facts and rationality inconvenient to their paranoid fantasies.

  • majordad75

    There very well can not be a “shootout”when only the bad guys have guns. That too is a lesson from the Sandy Hook school.

  • leadvillexp

    This also works in the reverse. Are you scared when you see someone walk in with a gun? Why scare people. Honest law abiding people and trained people protect others.

  • leadvillexp

    Just something to add. Do you think a lunitic r bad person is going to care about hideing a gun? They are there to kill.

  • Does anyone have a constructive suggestion on how to prevent another mass shooting?

  • ottokristen

    I support Common Sense Legislation to End Gun Violence,but this is not enough.
    Nobody can stop violence of certain people.If somebody wants to harm another person and have no way of obtaining a gun,he or she can use another weapon,which might not be as dangerous and deadly as a gun.Therefore no noncombatant except police and lawfully designated persons, should have an access to a handgun or a semi or automatic gun.Hunting guns, after thorough check ,excluded.
    There is a psychological difference on using a gun (which is impersonal and sometime used from far away) or using a knife,which creates a person to person situation.Take it from somebody who had a special training and who handled from 85m/m (about 3″diam) antiaircraft semiautomatic gun,to Parbola 9 mm, through scorpion 7.65 m/m,to target championship 22m/m.rifle. But the question is,my dear American friends,can you take it sitting down?

  • I believe that there is no legitimate reason for a civilian to owm a semi-automatic weapon of any kind. In hunting I’ve never had to fire more than 3 consecutive rounds at any target, and there are better hunters out there. As for self protection, my revolvers will do just fine. Someone might want to ask how would my weapons stack up against, say an AK-47, remember it only takes 1 well aimed bullet to kill you.

  • If you must have a gun then you should have to pay a yearly insurance fee to help pay for the innocent people that could be hurt or killed by your gun in addition to your gun permit, have a mental check up at least twice a year to make sure you are mentally fit to own a gun,
    no matter how a gun is sold there should have to be a back ground check done on the buyer and at least a 5 day or more waiting period to get the gun and limit the size of the magazine for bullets so they can only hold 6 bullets at a time.

  • 426tt_64

    WE hunters need the bushmaster, just this year I had a 15 point buck some 200 yards from me and head on. My scope brought him in and I saw I had a clean shot between a few trees, it took 4 clips but I cleared out all of the trees and killed my trophy buck. When my buddy and I got up to the buck, it looked like it went through a meat grinder and the 15 point rack was nowhere to be found? Thats why they make such good weapons to hunt with. JUST SAYING.

    • Michael Kollmorgen

      If you needed that much ammo to take down a Deer, you must have been a pretty bad shot.

      Like you said though, at least you cleared the trees out.

      • Eleanor

        You probably don’t even know which end of the gun the barrel is on from your vile reports, and have never been hunting in the woods. Just sayin.

  • Why would a wealthy divorced woman need an a assualt rifle? Why would she take her child to the shooting range and have this peculiar hobby? He had violent tendancies. It was like giving an arsonist gasoline and matches. If anything good comes from the death of these little children lets get the assault weopons out of the hands of the idiots who want them in the first place. Its time for the frightened masses to stand up to the NRA and say make our day, and finish this stupidity.

  • killmeister

    There needs to be regulations governing firearms that are at least as stringent as those governing the right to drive a motor vehicle, i.e., passing a written and eye test, passing a driving test, and even owning insurance. Like with a car if you want a gun you should have to prove proficiency with guns and even have to carry insurance. If you want your gun you have to show competency and pay insurance, which could be used to compensate victimes of gun violence just like we do with cars. The NRA will argue that these new laws won’t stop gun violence but they WILL help to REDUCE THE INCIDENCE of gun violence. Just like speed limits and red-light cameras for cars people will still speed and run red lights but many will be caught and fined and either learn their lesson or lose their license to drive. What he have now with guns would be like trying to drive on streets or highways with no speed limits and no deterrent to running red lights. Would you feel SAFER driving around with these conditions than with the speed limits and red-light cameras we have now? I doubt it. And to those who would like to own these high powered semi-automatic guns with high capacity clips I would remind you that fast cars pay much higher insurance premiums than those of us who buy vehicles solely for transportation. Despite my analogies I strongly favor banning all rapid-fire weapons with high capacity clips (>10 bullets). We should also close the gun show loophole which is like allowing people to drive a car with no license and no insurance. Why is it so difficult for some gun-loving folks to see how ludicrous the gun situation is when compared to cars?

    • Eleanor

      So, what you are say is this: If I own a gun, a criminal breaks in and takes my secured guns, killig me with one of them, then goes on a killing spree, I am responsible for this idiot?? How stpid can a person get? I guess when you and yours are killed, raped, or whatever, you think the criminal should be financially responsible for your medical care???That is the gist of your irrational thinking. Time was, when you could have a firearm, teach your kids how to use it and gun safety, but all the TV violence, Movies, and video games are just perfect as a baby sitter for your child??? I have 4 grown kids who have learned gun use and safety, and they have never attempted to use a gun except for what it was intended, self defense. Call me an old fogey, but the responsibility of most of these mass killings fall back on irresponsble parents, as well as being amoral and unethical parents. Kids raised in “farming” or rural communities are taught good values, and they greatly value human live, as well as animal life, but will defend the families they have to the end, using whatever means they have to, and I pray they have a gun at their disposal.

  • 426tt_64

    Michael K looks like you got the point I was making? I use a recurve bow myself, for my deer hunting. Although I have a 16ga feather weight for birds and rabbit, a ruger 22ga rifle for squirel, and turkey. I also have 2 hand guns a Smith&Wesson 38 revolver, and a first addition Colt 22 Automatic Woodsman. I’m a believer in the 2nd Amendment, but also that certain guns don’t belong in homes. I don’t believe that Guns and Ammo should be so easy to get at a road shows, the requirements need to be a whole lot more strict then they now are. Have a Merry Christmas & Happy New Year.

  • Hillary and Barry: Since NONE of this cesspool’s “reporters” want to publish an article on Hillary’s recent appearance and testimony in Congress (about the Libya debacle), let me indicate to you what these coward and corrupt “reporters” won’t: The TRUTH ALWAYS makes a difference (Hillary: “What difference does it make?” ) …

  • killmeister

    There is, and likely will continue to be, a lot of teeth nashing over what constitutes and “assault weapon” and how large a magazine’s capacity should be but we SHOULD all be able to agree that universal registration and background checks for ALL gun sales is both reasonable and necessary. We spend millions of dollars paying for all the efforts of Homeland Security, around the world and at airports in particular, where babies are frisked and 80 year old seniors have to routinely remove thier shoes and have their luggage checked for explosives. Let me equate these measures to “fixing a flat tire”, a kind of “necessary incovenience”, post 9/11. Certainly we all should want to reduce the possibility of a terrorist boarding a plane with a weapon in tow. Despite this the NRA and others would tell you that having to register ALL gun sales and carry out a background check is a form of “harasssment” of honest, law abiding citizens by our government. They also may tell you that this is unnecessary and won’t work. To this I say why bother worrying about baggage checks and all that related airport type of “inconvenience” (one tire puncture) if they want us to ignore the registration of guns at gun shows and private sales. If we don’t fix this second puncture then the tire will still be flat and people’s safety compromised by allowing guns to be sold to anyone (e.g., terrorists, the mentally ill, convicted felons, etc). The NRA will tell you that any sort of gun registration may one day allow the government to come to your house and take away your guns. Does anyone realize how difficult (nearly impossible) it is to change the constitution and thus the second amendment ensures that this will not happen? All the NRA is doing with this slippery slope notion that they like to propagate is to create unjustified paranoia among the vast majority of law abiding gun owners. Hopefully, this time around enough folks will see through the NRA’s tactics and reject their non-sensical arguments to pass some meaningful legislation.

  • I’m confused by people who claim gun ownership is necessary for “self defense”. We live in the world’s most prosperous, cossetted society. America is one of the safest places on earth to live (aside, ironically, from the threat posed by gun owners). What the hell are they talking about?

  • Charles Miller

    Something the NRA never addresses is the number of U.S. gun suicides.

    There are more gun suicides than gun homicides.

    This speaks directly to the impulsivity of gun owners, who make emotion-laden and too-often irrational decisions regarding pulling the trigger.

    If the 2nd Amendment phrase (typically forgotten by gun promoters) “A well-regulated militia” means anything, it means that the people (i.e., the militia) is well regulated. One would naturally assume that the militia members would be of sound mind. Clearly, this is not the case.