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Sunday, December 17, 2017

One thing about that mangy posse of anti-government crackpots camped out at Cliven Bundy’s place in the Nevada desert: Most don’t know a thing about cattle ranching.

See, it’s calving season across most of the country. No rancher worthy of the name is going to run off leaving his cows to fend for themselves while he fights somebody else’s battles. Particularly not some deadbeat who refuses to pay his grazing fees, and who claims that the same laws that apply to every other rancher in the United States don’t apply to him.

A guy who wraps himself in the stars and stripes while proclaiming “I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing.”

Me, I’m keeping a close eye on the best heifer I’ve ever bred for signs she’s going into labor. Her name is Sarah. Last August I turned down an opportunity to sell Sarah for three times market value because I was eager to breed her. Bernie the bull arrived on our place last July 4th, so it could be any time now.

I’ve spent most of the last three days worrying over Trudy’s newborn calf. Although her udder appeared to have been nursed when I found them back in the pine thicket where Trudy had hidden to deliver, I never actually saw the little heifer feeding until last night. Trudy, see, delivered a stillborn bull calf two years ago, and lost another last spring. Hence my anxiety.

For what it’s worth, I also have a photo of myself that I made for a French friend who’d been teasing me about being a cowboy—white Stetson, horse, shotgun and my best Clint Eastwood squint. Alain didn’t really get the joke, but I could even pass for this Bundy joker in dim light. See, it’s partly a costume drama Fox News is helping this con-man stage.

Although my own little operation is more of a hobby than a business, I do try not to lose money. However, many of my Perry County, Arkansas friends and neighbors are cattle ranchers for real. It’s damned hard making money on cows, but nobody around here imagines they can graze cattle in the Ouachita National Forest for nothing. Every single one pays for his own land, pays property taxes, pays the water bill and pays for any pasture he rents—all things Cliven Bundy takes for free from the U.S. government while styling himself a rugged individualist.

Nationally, some 18,000 ranchers lawfully graze 157 million acres of federally-owned property supervised by the Bureau of Land Management, at subsidized rates. No wonder the Nevada Cattleman’s Association–not exactly a left-wing organization—has stated that while its membership has perennial issues with the BLM, it encourages obeying the law and “does not feel it is our place to interfere in the process of adjudication in this matter.”

See, this isn’t land the U.S. seized by eminent domain. Surrendered to the Feds by Mexico in 1848, it never belonged to the state of Nevada, which didn’t yet exist. The U.S. District judge who ordered Bundy’s cattle removed ruled that he “has produced no valid law or specific facts raising a genuine issue of fact regarding federal ownership or management of public lands in Nevada, or that his cattle have not trespassed.”

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508 Responses to Bundy Standoff Is A Fox News Costume Drama

  1. If this was a black guy in the inner city, “squatting” on unused property owned by any level of government entity, FAUX would be all over him like stink on fresh cattle pies!

    • And that black guy, or a poor white city jerk like me, would have been lying face down in the street, after the first 90 seconds of confrontation.

        • Fake patriots? Yah right. You are the ones who no longer give any precedence to the Constitution or Amendments. You would rather burn the flag than look at it and the Pledge of Alligence is an insult to your karma. Give me a break. It’s been a fundamental change alright. A fundamental change right in the direction of Karl Marx’s ideology.

          • So let’s get this straight! Your idea of a good patriot is someone like Clive Bundy who clearly stated, with the US flag in the background, that he does not recognize the US government and doesn’t have to follow the law!

          • So let’s get this straight your idea of a good patriot is Barack Obama who hates America, who is a Muslim, who is a Communistic Anti Colonialist bent on making some ‘fundamental changes,’who has created a vast divide between both parties, who is a consistent liar, who has had so much scandal in his two terms that were he a normal person he should have been impeached, and who has been the least transparent President we have ever had. He along with his henchman, Hold-up, Peloser and Reidtard have made America the laughing stock of the World. The most anti-American group I have seen in my lifetime. It’s going to take a hell of a lot of work to even turn this Country around.

            I ask you, do you really think it is mature or diplomatic to keep attacking the Conservatives? Not really!

          • He is not a Muslim! Proven! I haven’t heard of one scandal that had any evidence! Proven! If anyone has made America the laughing stock, it has been the inane remarks the Republicans keep making that are totally insane! Proven! We are really in good shape considering what he inherited from the Bush administration and would be in better shape if not for the do nothing Republicans whose mantra is “NO”!!

          • Yes, you are fake patriots. If you want to understand the Constitution, study the arguments that gave us the Constitution. Fake patriots because the party takes precedence over the United States as a whole. It must divided and I wonder who is standing by to conquer.

          • Contrair, speak for yourself because that is the only right you see. Why don’t you tell me how you are patriotic? Your interpretation of the Constitution is very different than how the forefathers saw it. Why don’t you give me your thoughts and I bet they will revolve around your modern worldly opinion.

            Of course, the minion bullies (the Liberals) are standing by to conquer the majority.

          • You have no idea how the forefathers’ saw it. You John Birchers are a boil on the bum of society.

          • Again, you are always after me to answer your questions yet you sail around mine. Why don’t you answer me on this one. How are you patriotic? And why don’t you give me what you believe the Constitution stands for.

            You see I have an issue with your belief system. I believe it takes both to create a balance, however; at the moment the scales are tipped too heavily to the Liberal side. The corruption reaks throughout the Liberal party because they will stop at nothing to get their people in. Lying and cheating and bullying a good candidate does not make and will only end in the demise of democracy.

            “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can
            prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense
            of taking care of them.”
            ~Thomas Jefferson

            “A government big enough to give you everything you want
            is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.”
            ~Gerald Ford

            “A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy…”

            -Alexander Fraser Tytler, Scottish lawyer and writer,

          • I looked up your website. The vernacular doesn’t fit other quotes by Jefferson. I have read several books on him and all of them quoted him. That never appeared. The other thing, all the other books cite the where, when and why to to whom. Now here is an actual quote:
            “In my experience. man is the only animal who devours his own kind. For I can certainly apply no other term to the governments of Europe and the general building of the rich at the expense of the poor.” Letter to Colonel Edward Kerrington January 16, 1787. Sounds a little at odds with your quote, doesn’t it?

          • Oddly, I have seen that quote by Jefferson in several places as well as the ones below. You can conclude all you want from your reading but I am quite sure that he believed that government should be held at bay. Obviously, he had no use for the government of Europe which is the model that Obama seems to want to replicate.

            ‘A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.’
            -Thomas Jefferson

            ‘Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.’
            -Thomas Jefferson

          • Well I guess your interpretation of the Constitution is your opinion only! You wave it like a flag and haven’t got a clue!

          • You still did not answer my question and most likely refuse to. How are you patriotic and what is your interpretation of the Constitution and the Amendments therein? By the way, it is not my opinion. I would think that if the US was supposed to be like Europe it would have started out that way. Well, it didn’t and it isn’t. Isn’t that what your namesake is trying to do. I think that if the founding fathers would see the direction we are headed down, they would be rolling over.

          • I don’t need to justify myself to you or anyone else! All you want to do is criticize and tear everyone down according to your beliefs! Well have at it big guy! No one is buying your drivel!

          • Just as you don’t have to justify yourself, I don’t have to justify myself. As far as criticize, i think you all are doing an extremely good job tearing the Conservatives into shreds. Problem is we are not going to take your drivel anymore. We think you no longer have any semblence of common sense left. We don’t trust our government or Liberals. We are even skeptical of our own side. Your actions are causing reactions and I don’t mean the good kind. So you can whine on and on about how poorly the Conservatives are treating you all and, come to think about, we don’t even care because we have nothing to lose.

            Oh by the way, as usual all of you are evading the questions I asked. What makes you a patriot? …And where is your interpretation of the Constitution in line with our forefathers?

          • You (cough) patriots? You have reverence for the Constitution? You are swinging it like a club to bully people. If you had bothered to really study the proposals and hearing that went with each part, you might understand it better. No, no, you wouldn’t. George Washington wanted the many splinter groups charged with treason. So, you have no idea who the founding fathers were or what their philosophies were. One time, one time, you old JB’r, was the flag burned by a group of Viet Nam War protestors. Then, it became fodder for the subversive group of the day. One time, and it has been brought to the floor so many times to make it illegal to burn the flag. You were probably one of the nuts who had communists crawling out everyone’s vent pipes. Everybody became a communist and your nut job, in Congress, destroyed lives with name calling like “onsymp, pinko, etc.” Paranoids are not an asset to this country. Go look for communists.

      • It depends how Christian and “clean-cut” he was. You can’t deny, Joe, that even if you personally aren’t that exclusive against those who defy conservative standards (for example, Christian and “clean-cut”), most conservatives do. Fox News certainly paints it that way and encourages that kind of neocon sentiment.

        • Get over yourself. Many Christians would be more than happy to help out the poor and downtrodden. Specifically if he were the underdog… Conservatives are not heartless bastards like you all seem to think. Remember I stated that the Middle=class Christian’s are the biggest contributors to charity. More so than any other group.

          • And remember I de-bunked that statement.

            Oh, that’s right. That’s one of those conversations you walked away from. Because you weren’t interested in my comment, right.

            Because it de-bunked your “facts”.

          • ….and how was that? I just stated a fact and you basically debunked and ignored it yourself.

          • “I just stated a fact and you basically debunked and ignored yourself.”

            No. This was a different story on the Memo. How soon you forget. You blathered about Christian superiority and I refuted it by mentioning the study that proves liberals and conservatives are about equal in charitable giving. Which means, since conservatives then piss and moan about social welfare, they aren’t AS charitable as liberals, who are willing to give as much as conservatives and don’t complain about paying taxes to cover the very, very wide gaps that charity leaves.

            I don’t have a problem with all Christians. I have a problem with mindless evangelicals, and all the charity in the world can’t make up for the associated problems.

          • You stated no fact. What study? Where’s your reference? Regarding the reference to Fox News and your misinterpretation. Knowing you, you probably hear something on Fox News (I’m even surprised you watch the network which I rather doubt) and bitch and moan at the TV. You did not state that fact before with regards to the generosity of both sides. Usually it is the Liberal who claims to be the champion of the poor. I just wanted to make it clear that as a Conservative, I’ve seen generosity in action. You have this strange notion that we’re gonna throw ‘Mama from the train.’ These are all scare tactics by your side and utterly nonsense.

            We piss and moan about social welfare because there are times, and you know this is true, when people abuse the system. Sadly, your side has kept many of the poor suppressed specifically because of social programs. I also believe if someone is able bodied they need to work for the money they get from the government.

            Of course we can’t save the entire world, but not one child in the world should go hungry and that is a pure and simple fact. I believe that is something we can agree upon.

          • “You stated no fact.”

            *sigh* Yes, I did. You ignored it. Again then: a study by MIT has found negligible differences between liberal and conservative generosity.

            “I just wanted to make it clear that as a Conservative, I’ve seen generosity in action.”

            Yes, yes, I know. If you’ve seen it, it must be true. Anecdotal evidence always trumps scientific studies. That’s how you know climate change is false; Fox News and the TPNN and friends just reinforces what you already “know”.

            “We piss and moan about social welfare because there are times, and you know this is true, when people abuse the system”

            Of course. Almost every government program, just like almost every large private corporation, is plagued by corruption and incompetence. The bigger you go, you will statistically have more problems. But statistically speaking, the abuse and fraud of the welfare system has LOOOOOOOONG been overdramatized. Reagan ran on his racist denouncement of “welfare queens” and ever since, it’s been the hyperbolic argument of the right against welfare. (What’s worse is that some red states have doubled down on this position. Florida, for example, has been fighting to force regular drug tests on not only state employees but all welfare recipients. The test phase found that almost no one on welfare was using drugs, contrary to popular belief. Worse, the cost of the program — of testing everyone’s urine for drug use — was ridiculous. So much for fiscal temperance.) Furthermore, to strip welfare from millions who need it in order to punish the few actual cases of fraud, is so idiotic it can’t be the real reason the GOP wants to pare it down. Which begs the question: what IS their real reason?

            And you answered: “Sadly, your side has kept many of the poor suppressed specifically
            because of social programs. I also believe if someone is able bodied
            they need to work for the money they get from the government.”

            Liberals don’t keep people suppressed with welfare, they keep them from being oppressed by sheer physical conditions. I’ve myself been on welfare before, including housing assistance. Once I got back on my feet, I proudly walked into the office and canceled my assistance. The assumption conservatives make then is if -I- can do that, so can and must everyone. But I’m not representative of everyone who’s on welfare. I’m a lower-middle class white guy who fell on hard times and picked himself up because he has ambition and was fortunate enough to be born and raised in such a family and social position that I recognize opportunity — rare as it may be for even me — when it comes. I am NOT the poor working class guy who’s always been on welfare because there’s no work in his town and he can’t even afford to re-locate to a new town, and if he wanted to, if he leaves his house it better be right with his friends (in this context, such associations are also known as gangs) or he’s dead. Literally dead. And the only reason his situation is like that at all is because his parents were born and raised in poverty because they were grossly underpaid. And THEIR parents were grossly underpaid (and if they weren’t white, also maliciously mistreated). And so forth.

            Poverty is generational and the economic theories that conservatives favor so much do NOT help the poor because it’s a cycle that conservative economics don’t break into. You have to be ushered into it — and if you’re at the rock bottom, that opportunity may never rear its head. And even if it does, you might not be looking for it because you’re too busy watching over your shoulder for rival gangs or racist cops. Conservative economics rely on sheer luck for the poor; it’s self-sustaining for the rich (i.e., helps the rich get richer). Not unlike the Dark Ages, where a peasant or serf could — through sheer fortune and the grace of God — rise above his drudging lot. Naturally, such lucky persons need to also have ambition and personal drive to seize upon those extraordinarily rare moments. But economically depressed areas tend to also leave people emotionally depressed, too. Thus, opportunities can pass people by, and it’s not because they’re lazy or apathetic, it’s because they’ve given up. And the main reason they’ve given up is that the odds are stacked against them — WAY against them. Life is tough, they say, but it’s a helluva lot tougher for some more than others.

            As for getting people to work in return for welfare, that of course assumes there is work to be had. I would not object to that course, nor would most liberals. Why? Because we’ve done that before. It was called the New Deal. Republicans don’t want that. In fact, FDR has been vilified and demonized. (To be fair, he was vilified and demonized by the Right in life, too.) Conservatives tend to demand that the able-bodied poor should take whatever private business job they can find under the assumption that this empowers the economy. Problem is, such work is generally going to be in the lower end of the service industry (because that’s all there is). Ironically, welfare recipients are already there, as we’ve seen — many if not most Wal-mart and McDonalds employees are already on food stamps, and those companies tacitly (or even explicitly) encourage it. Why wouldn’t they? It means they don’t have to pay higher wages, and we taxpayers can continue to subsidize their underpaid employees’ meals.

            “but not one child in the world should go hungry and that is a pure and
            simple fact. I believe that is something we can agree upon.”

            Right on.

            Since we wandered over to education, I’m willing to wager we’d also agree on the nature of higher education in this country. Silly conspiracies aside, one thing this nation needs to consider is paring back the assumption that everyone must go to university to get a decent job. We need more vocational schools and junior colleges. We need more apprenticeship programs.

            Be careful though. If you do agree with that, you agree with Obama. ;p

          • ‘Rival gangs’ and ‘racist cops.’ Hmmm, well why would you want to be in a gang anyway. They are bad news and I happen to have a family member who is a cop and he is definitely not racist. I have seen how they handle criminals and I believe they have been trained to keep a cool head. At times, I can only imagine that it’s tough. They’re human. Some of them make mistakes.

            We all do have some overlaps tucked into our belief system regarding politics and, as citizens, that is what is supposed to keep us working together:) At the moment, that is not the case.

            I understand your position on welfare, however; most Republican’s that I have talked to would not disagree with the fact that welfare recipients should work for the money they get. It is there for the purpose of helping people at a point when they really need it. However, you seem to think that most people who receive welfare are on the up and up. Well, I don’t. I have seen many people work the ‘system.’ Especially in my State.

            I also understand the economic position some people face in life. Some people really do luck into financial security. Some people can make it happen. Yet, I don’t believe that all that hard work that a person put into becoming successful should be shared with people who haven’t made it in life. It really is about fate and fairness. You do realize you will always have the ‘haves’ and the ‘have not’s.’ Even in a Socialist system. In that case most of the money is held by the government. We happen to be one of the ‘have not’s,’ but that doesn’t mean we don’t hope to be one of the ‘haves.’ That is part of the American Dream to become wealthy through innovation. In fact it spurs on creativity. If you make everyone equal innovation stops.

            Well, I would agree with you on the vocational schools. In Europe they have such a system. I warn you though, it is a bit bias. Not everyone gets to go to college. If you don’t have the smarts you don’t go to University. You end up in a trade school. One thing I would agree upon is the fact that cost wise an education should be available for everyone. Universities are a huge money maker. Maybe the Unions are to blame?

          • “Hmmm, well why would you want to be in a gang anyway.”

            Well, sadly, it’s not a matter of whether you’d want to be or not. If you’re in that situation — and bear in mind, we’re talking about people -born- into that situation, you often don’t have a choice. There are very few exit options. And if you grow up in that situation, you very likely don’t even know what those options are, and are furthermore liable to be filled with a fair measure of despair. Economic depression brings wholesale emotional depression.

            I agree, many cops (many people in general) are not racist. At least not actively and intentionally racist. It depends on the city and the goals of local enforcement (which are partially determined politically — by the mayor). Some police officers are expected and trained to negotiate and work things out with “the gangs” peacefully. In other cities, they are instructed to crack down hard because the mayor wants to look tough. And this can change even within the same city over time (as mayors change). So a lot of times, it’s not even individual officers who are racist, but a local regime that is pushing unsympathetic and/or passive-aggressive racist doctrines.

            “At the moment, that is not the case.”

            It’s been a dangerously long moment. 🙁 Since at least the mid-90s.

            “However, you seem to think that most people who receive welfare are on the up and up.”

            I didn’t say that. In fact, I said the opposite if you recall. My case was the exception, and I explained why most people end up languishing in poverty. It’s cyclical. And I explained that cycle, briefly.

            “It really is about fate and fairness.”

            Fate is entirely arbitrary. While there are good arguments for at least some inequality (which Piketty also makes), for example the salaries of surgeons vs. garbagemen, to rest entirely on fate is hierarchical — a “new” kind of aristocracy. (I say new in scare quotes because it’s been this way in America since the beginning. Indeed, capitalism IS a “new” kind of aristocracy, so really it predates the USA. This was seen most obviously in the original limits of suffrage — you couldn’t vote even if you were a white male if you didn’t own a minimum amount of property. Not until the late 1820s did this change. This was in part because the Founding Fathers believed in the liberating power of wealth — the basis of what was then called Whig politics and economics. While it’s true that having more wealth gives you more options and thus apparently more freedom, the acquisition of more wealth inevitably imbalances liberty for all. This was at the heart of the split of Progressives from the Republican party in the early 20th century. The old Whig-ish conservatives still believed in that, despite all evidence (like robber barons) to the contrary. Thus, when certain libertarians argue that most intellectuals in the 19th-century agreed with them, they fail to place those men in context. They were egalitarians for the most part, and would have evolved and abandoned classic liberalism for progressivism had the evidence been more obvious in their day. I would argue that their view was blinded by far more obnoxious inequalities, like slavery, and thus they were too busy railing against that than worrying about the “lesser” inequalities Progressives would later oppose, like child labor.)

            “If you make everyone equal innovation stops.”

            Quite so. But extreme inequality ALSO makes innovation stop because monopolists seize and freeze all competition. So can presumed needs for constant wealth accumulation. Did you know what we’re using now, the Internet I mean, is basically a prototype never intended for the widespread commercial use it now is? It is highly vulnerable to viruses and its framework (the coding) is starting to sag and collapse under its own weight. Internet-2 has been designed and it is available. It is better protected against viruses. But to install it, to replace the original Internet, would require a takedown of the whole Net. BILLIONS of dollars in commercial transactions (that’s a lotta porn) would be lost and it would certainly cause an economic recession. Thus, I2 has been delayed while they try to figure out how to replace I1 without shutting it down. Kinda like trying to figure out how to whip the tablecloth out from beneath the fine china without breaking any of it. Hence, innovation stifled. And not even by a monopoly, just capitalistic business as usual.

            “If you don’t have the smarts you don’t go to University.”

            Universities have been dedicated to research for the most part in this country. Students who attend them should be those who intend to become researchers. That doesn’t mean that vocational schools don’t teach basic collegiate skills. You can go to such a school for a degree in electrician work and still be obliged to read Moby Dick in your first year. You -should- be; it’d produce better electricians, because liberal arts study enhances critical thinking (universally helpful), which basic science and math do not.

            “Universities are a huge money maker. Maybe the Unions are to blame?”

            Ehh, actually, collegiate sports are more the problem. There’s no union there (part of the problem some would say). It’s a vicious cycle of degrading education for the benefit of attracting more students by merit of successful sports programs (rather than prestigious academia) and the big party that surrounds it (Sperbe’s “Beer and Circus” is a useful read). Not every university is guilty of that, and many of those that are are starting to turn things around. (The NCAA is putzing around, of course.) It’s still a long way to go, and it doesn’t correct all the inherent problems with higher education today.

            I’m also aware that the academic bias universities might show in that situation would likely be based on test scores, which is unfair for many students. Einstein did terrible on tests. Not everyone is a test-taker. And while most who do poorly on tests are simply not that bright, there are quite a few who are. And we wouldn’t want to lose any of those potential Einsteins. A purely elitist approach would cause them to slip through the cracks. So we’d have to proceed with caution.

          • Common sense (I realize republicans and common sense are not well acquainted) says that the best way to get people off welfare is to build a society that does not need the social safety nets.

          • Indeed, although non-ideal theory would point out that no matter what, there will always be hard luck cases. So some social safety net will always be required. But its use can be minimized by improving society itself, which begins with cultural revaluation (starting with, at the very least, a rebirth of civic virtue) and a major economic overhaul (which, if civic virtue is a part of our political culture, won’t be as nearly painful as some might think — by that virtue, the sacrifices that would have to be made would be acceptable to the virtuous).

            Pinning it all on “civic virtue” may seem naive and idealized. And maybe it is. But unfortunately, our Founding Fathers pinned it all on that. Even the constitutional checks and balances fail if civic virtue is absent — and they wrote as much.

            So if reinstating civic virtue is not the correct route, then there isn’t one — not with what we’ve got. We’d have to dump the Constitution and start from scratch. Its functionality is based not on some mechanistic legal punch-and-counter-punch, but on its human components doing what’s right.

          • That is way over some peoples’heads. Remember the insane person who built a scapegoat for peoples problems? The poor people have become the scapegoats. I worked for H & W and knew many families that worked two low paying jobs with no future and still needed food stamps. Like the Juden the poor people are the problem in this country. It is okay to give billions in subsidies to oil, agriculture, and corporations, but never, never to the person who is stuck in his or her caste.

          • Recipients of social aid are not the only ones who abuse the system. The totals: Food stamps 37 billion in 2009. Farm subsidies, oil subsidies 440 billion in 2009

          • CamCubed you have presented some very valid points. Let’s also work into the equation single mothers and fathers or couples who would like to work but all that is available is minimum wage jobs. Minimum wage does not pay enough for parents to put their child (or children) in daycare. Let’s also include the fact that the Conservatives among us do not want to provide birth control to women which leads to more children that the parents cannot afford.

          • How about giving some figures as to how much charity is received from middle-class Christians and to whom is it given?

          • For the benefit of the rest of our compatriots on this board, I will tell them what your website showed. Philanthropy.com is a charitable organization for supporting children. It was started by a woman who lived in poverty all her life. There happened to be a couple of rich donors. It happens. The rich often gives. They can enter it in the ledger as a donation (or expense?) and take it off their taxes. The site doesn’t prove the magnanimosity of the wealthy as a class. It is a wonderful site, if any of you would like to check it out.

          • As most .orgs can testify all of them need varied donations from many sources to survive.

            Here’s yet another.

            http://library.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=4&page=161

            Here’s another one for you. Seems Red states give more than Blue. That is because now the Blues are the 1% and they don’t want to share the wealth.

            http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/20/religion-politics-affect-americans-philanthropy/?page=all

            ….and yet another…
            http://www.catholicleague.org/charitable-giving-stereotypes-exploded/

            ‘Brooks has put together one of the most incredible indictments of the finger-pointing left-wing secular elites in recent memory. The same people who never stop lecturing the rest of us on our alleged greed, we
            learn, turn out to be the stingiest of them all. Others may have said this before, but no one has presented the data like Brooks. His evidence
            is overwhelming.’

            ‘Unlike the Johnson and Schweizer contributions, Brooks doesn’t focus on the big names—he makes comparisons based on demographic groups—but his rendering is similar: the reader walks away feeling a genuine contempt
            for the duplicity and arrogance of the lecturing class. And what will be of most interest to the readers ofCatalyst, Brooks makes plain
            the wholly unearned reputation that secular liberals have in caring for the poor. They may have mastered the rhetoric of caring, but it is
            religious conservatives who are the champions of actually doing something to help the dispossessed.’

            Debunked!

          • How many “good Christians” do you suppose are in Congress? Not many I would guess since they have no problem with cutting any social network that would help the down and out! Of course I fully realize that all those people are free loaders in your eyes! I wouldn’t trust a “good Christian” with my life!!

          • Let me guess? You are an atheist. I feel realllly sorry for you. ROLFOL What an empty life….

          • Don’t be ridiculous. Most atheists are secular humanists and live a very full life, both festive and spiritual. By spirit, we mean that in the philosophical sense, not religious. The Nietzschean sense, if you will.

            And if you follow Nietzsche down the rabbit hole, you quickly find that you don’t NEED religion to be thoroughly spiritual, and in fact some religions (including many branches of Christianity) can hold one back from spiritual fulfillment because of a tendency to leave it all in the hands of a deity and the promise of the afterlife instead of THIS life.

          • Some people, who claim to be Christians are not setting the example that endears people to their church.

          • That’s because I am not a turn my cheek and get slapped on the side of the head by bullies kind of a person:) I’m only human and humans are not perfect. Only God is.

          • Another clue as to your mental health – inappropriate laughing. Rolling on the floor because someone is an Atheist in your warped head. You need to walk with Jesus. I mean not only read the New Testament, but put yourself there. You are taking the Lord’s Name in vain, because you are trying to make people think you are a Christian. “By their fruitage shall you know them.” Can you imagine Jesus calling people names, spewing hate and distrust and judging people like you do? You are not a Christian.

          • Like I said before I am not perfect only God is. True, Jesus was very excepting of all people. I am not Jesus either. I am a defender of faith and Christainity. Nowadays, I believe Christainity is being attacked from all angles by atheists, Muslims, etc… Maybe I am not the perfect Christian. I know few people who are but I am a strong supporter of fighting for Christian rights. Christain’s have just as many rights to reside on this planet as any other religious group, but they are not wanting to except us and that is where the problem begins. Why do you think wars were fought over religion. Come to think of it, most wars were fought over religion. You start stepping on Christianity like many of you do, then and I fight back. I have no use for atheists. I feel sorry for them but that is about where my thoughts end.

            This country was based on Christianity and don’t give me that bull that it wasn’t. Remember, the Pilgrims. Just why did they come to this country or have you forgotten about that?

            I see what the Muslims have done in Europe and I certainly do not want that kind of bothersome crap in this Country. I have no problem with them being here and practicing their faith but if they think they want to change us you can just forget it. They deprive humanity of all essence of decency. They marry children are disrespectful towards women, are war mongers and the list goes on and on.

            Acceptance is one thing tolerance another. You have to earn that tolerance in life and that is something atheists and Muslims do not have.

          • If Jesus was excepting of all people, that means he took exception to them. I didn’t see him that way. I saw him as a loving person who loved all people. I believe some so-called Christians are attacking other faiths. Other faiths have as much right on this planet as so-called Christians. Now, as I challenged you before, start reading the New Testament and put yourself there and walk with Jesus. I find I trust my Atheist friends a lot more than I would someone like you who makes heroes out of anti-American thugs.

          • Can you imagine what they must think about the loaves and fishes? A handout if there ever was one.

          • Oh, and by that you mean both the House and Senate because they are both part of Congress….or have you forgotten that…..

          • Ah, well you better include the Liberals as well because it takes two to tango:)

          • You are so immature. “Get over yourself.” in no way fits what CamCubed said. If it is just a cliche to throw out there it shows you are not absorbing any of the argument. You don’t argue, you quarrel.

  2. I agree. Bundy and his redneck militia can camp out there for as long as they like. Eventually the heat will get to them and they will just be a footnote in history. As for Mr. Bundy, eventually he will have to answer to the federal government for illegally trespassing. Also the federal government will put a lien on his ranch. At that point he will not be able to even borrow money from banks as the federal liens will scare them off. They will not want to be secondary lenders. Furthermore his right wing rants and militia friends will scare the hell out of them.

    • I’ve been intrigued watching some of my conservative friends trying to decide whether or not to support Bundy in the wake of some of the wackiest claims he’s made.

      • If they are like my conservative friends, they want to support him, but he is so far out there that he has actually scared them. In the end, the vast majority of these hate talking people are not interested in giving up their fat and sassy American lifestyles for some idiot’s poor beans ideals.

    • I was talking to a lawyer friend, last night. He says that the government can and should put a lien on what he gets when he sells the cattle.

        • Total disregard for who’s property? Not Bundy’s! As far as the government is concerned he is using land and water rights that do not belong him

        • Why not do away with all the laws. Everything is legal. Then do away with all the regulations. Who cares how much rat sh*t you get in your canned tuna? Don’t worry about that diseased meat. Do away with highway maintenance (oh, that has already been done.) Traffic lights, pesky regulation that interferes with people’s rights to drive anyway they want to. Let everybody do whatever they want to. Let’s not just cater to thugs with 10-gallon hats, but everybody.

          • Hey, that’s your decadent agenda. You are actually surmising your own party. Go figure. I’m so glad that you actually wrote about something that makes sense to me. Congratulations, that is exactly how I think Liberals are.

          • Bang, bang, bang. I am trying to hammer it into your head – I DO NOT BELIEVE IN POLITICAL PARTIES! I learned that from people, like you.

          • You are so prowed of yore igernce, haint, you? Since I don’t belong to a party, I can listen to everyone’s view points because Adelson, The john birch society and my paranoia does not tell me how to think I don’t like you. You aren’t smart and you are so proud of it. Let me give you some similarities in 2 parties: JBers – hate communists. If there aren’t enough communists, dream some up A.H., hated communists. Tpers hates labor unions. AH hated labor unions. Infiltrate the government with own party such as tparty. AH infiltrated the government with own party and destroyed the democracy. I don’t like you because you are like the people who helped AH.

  3. It’s time to go after the puppet master, Rupert Murdoch owner of Foxs News. It’s been proven how his London News group spied on the government to gather information they could use for their advantage? Cut off his head (FCC broadcast licenses).

      • Fox News doesn’t have a license do they? They are only a cable broadcaster – they do not broadcast over the air – other than satelite – so I suppose if you removed that – then the cable companies would no longer be able to air that crap.

    • Maybe we should go after MSNBC, it’s owners and George Soros for making a mockery of you all. If it wasn’t for Fox News we would not have a voice. Just like it used to be. Now that we do you hate us. As far as I know we still have a 1st Amendment.

      • Yeah just like the 2nd amendment that you run roughshod over and gave it a whole new meaning!! You don’t like the Bill of Rights just misinterpret to suit you!!

          • Looked up the site – right wing propaganda site. There are lots of them and lots of tnuts wrote books.

          • Oh….but it is so absolutely true. The new 1% make money the easy way. They also do not hire. Greedy bastards only want the money for themselves.

          • Just as there are plenty of kooks who have written books on your end. Unfortunately, the link I uploaded makes way too much sense. Of course you would think it is bull hockey. LOL, but it is soooo on target……

  4. Let the truth about Bundy trickle out and arrest the ‘posse’ one at a time for trespassing as they debark for food or to go back home.

    • The most perplexing part of this issue is that the people that support Bundy claim to support law and order. I guess their interpretation of law and order is anything that helps their pocket book and their political party.

      • It was the principle of the thing. The over reach by the US government. I can’t wait until things start slopping over to your side. Then who will have the last laugh….

      • I thought the most confounding part were the militia guys who showed up to the desert in green jungle camo.

        Of course, that’s because I’m assuming they wearing camo for pragmatic, tactical purposes. Ha, ha, silly me. Of course not, it’s just the only thing in their wardrobe…

        • LOL, and you with your uber pale white skin from being inside too long and your bespeckled balding salt and pepper hair topped off with an environmental t-shirt and kacki’s. Oh, and we can’t forget the thongs. Come to think of it, we can smell you coming because the pot you smoke has gone to your heads and warped your alien brains.

          • Stop trying to defend the fact that American militia guys are morons. You know darn well that the militia didn’t show up to fight hippies. They showed up to fight feds, who only smell like Kevlar and gun oil.

            And when you make these kinds of generalizations, it makes YOU look like a moron. And considering I’ve “sparred” with you on other news, and you always back off and run away like a conservative puss does when faced with facts, don’t -even- start. You know you’re gonna get pwned.

          • Get this in your small narrow minded brain. Have I run off? I am certainly not backing down. Facts? You all rarely include them in your rebuff. We usually get a load of inferior cussing and emotional mumbo jumbo. Like many Conservatives, whenever I can I upload facts.

          • You always back down because you never have facts. And you ignore it when I present facts.

            For example, when I pointed out the militia in Nevada guys’ “sense of style”, your response was to a) assume I’m a hippy; b) make idiotic comments about hippies. No facts. No defense of your heroes’ idiocy.

          • I NEVER BACK DOWN. May I make the same assumptions of your thoughts of me a) You assume I’m a stupid redneck or white supremacist terrorist b) make emotional comments and cuss at me with no retort but emotional rhetoric.

            Factual information is rarely posted by you.

          • Except you have in the past, and I’m sure you will again. Several conversations on the Memo between you and I were ended by you.

            a) Nope. Stupid, yes. Redneck, no. Terrorist, no. White supremacist..*waggles hand* Ehh… Insofar that (based on our previous conversations) you -vehemently- deny your racial micro-aggressions…

            b) I don’t cuss much. I only ever give what’s taken. If I were the “bigger man”, I’d ignore your moronic and unsubstantiated insults and comments altogether. But I enjoy giving it right back to you dweebs.

            So, don’t start none won’t be none.

          • If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it is a duck. At times your comments don’t interest me. No I don’t back down. I answer comments I find interesting and worthy of addressing.

            I am far from stupid, that’s why I’m here. If I were ignorant I would be going about my happy little way ignorant to life and all the political strife we are faced with at the moment. News flash….diversity on the Conservative side is growing….Thank god:)

          • By “diversity”, it would be best to assume you mean an irreconcilable split right down the center between right-wing libertarians and fundamentalist neocons. When Ayn Rand meets George W. Bush, all you get is nonsense.

            It doesn’t help that that individually, that’s all either movement has anyway.

            Conservatism is defined by an adherence to traditions and conventions, with an UNQUESTIONED assumption that they’re preferable to genuine progress. Those traditions are given a priori primacy, as if they were somehow and inexplicably “self-evident”, and when called out on this ontologically empty position, the typical response is “duhhhhhhhhhhh” quickly followed by “shuddup, commie!!!”.

          • Apparently ^^^but they try not to use more than 3 words at once ’cause their brains start to hurt after that.

          • I warned you not to try 3 words and now you’ve gone and tried 5. See, it had the same effect as trying a triple somersault off the curb. CRASHHHHH

          • Your total avoidance of anything resembling the topic at hand is apropos. Thanks for joining the conversation. Everything you had to say was very helpful, constructive, and informative.

            Bwahahaha, just kidding, you’re a tool.

            But to be fair, I am now interested in researching matters of justice across aborigine tribal lines rather than the typical juxtaposition of Indians vs. settlers. I won’t bore you with the details. Your misplaced and pubescent hostility and passion served a positive purpose after all.

          • It;s a good thing you don’t have a brain, because if you did, it would be really depressing to realize that even a tool with misplaced pubescent hostility and passion can pretty much slam dunk you for the last 8 hours you’ve been obsessively failing at outwitting me.

          • Only in your own world, honey. Only in your own world. You were pwned from the get-go.

            But thanks for playing.

          • Oh and have fun researching “aborigine” tribal lines. The plane ticket to Australia will cost a fortune but at least the playground children here will be safe as long as you’re busy jrking off exposing yourself in all your entitled ignorance somewhere besides here! And I’m already bored without the details, so you just saved me from throwing myself off your Tower of Arrogance and ending it all!

          • Wow, you sound like an expert on misplaced pubescent hostility and passion. Sounds like you’re interested in doing research at the aborigine playground! At least you’ll find someone more on your intellectual level there!

          • I didn’t have to prove it. After reading your lame excuses for comments, the court stipulated to it!

          • His quick defense of the modern day Jesse James tells me that he is a criminal at heart. I wouldn’t by anything from him.

          • hey, Schmo…did you know that Bundy lied about how long his family has been there? Don’t RWNJ’s hate takers & folks that feed off the public trough? Or is that only for the rest of us, not some stupid rich white guy??

          • I happen to know this Bundy fellow indirectly. Is he a rebel? Yes. Was he right? No

            Why don’t you give the guy a break…you give so many nonworthy non hardworking government handout types that all the time.

          • “I give non hard-working government handout types a break all of the time?”Seriously? You seem to think you know me….if you and Bundy don’t care for the government, there are lots of places you can move to that really would suit you. Personally, I think the government is doing OK, and will be doing better as soon as this idiot gets his cows off of MY land. You don’t get to pick who gets to break the law & who does;t. And if you really know Bundy you certainly know what everyone in Bunkerville knows. He’s not so much a rebel as he is a stupid, arrogant fool. He really is not well liked here…

          • We are right where we need to be. Remember how the ‘West was Won.’ ‘Don’t mess with Texas’ and ‘Don’t tread on me?’

            By the way you are not the only ones who own ‘your’ land. Apparently, we did have a voice because the BLM backed down. Remember!

            Talk about breaking laws and tearing apart our Constitution and Amendments. I think your side is doing quite well on that front.

            Not what I heard and I come from that area. Why would Utah’s governor stand up for him. No one wanted to take those cattle in any sales yard because in the west they call that Cattle rustling. Remember cattle have a brand for a reason. I also heard, because my sibling lives in LV, everyone was pissed and ready to head out there. Give me a break. You must be one of Reidtard’s rejects. Oh and by the way, just heard they are going after old Harry. Seems he’s gotten too big for his britches. I can only hope that Peloser follows suit. Oh but I forgot, she’s just not smart enough….. what an air head.

          • Laughing like crazy at your hero…He called a news conference for this afternoon here in Nevada. HE showed, late, his attorney did not, nor did all his local politicians that were slated to speak. All he did was ramble about “those” people etc. It actually showed what an illiterate clown the GOP has hitched up with. his supporters tried to keep him on message & he kept blathering. the GOP pundits, at the news station had to admit he’s an embarrassment…ride ’em cowboy. ROFLMAO!!!

          • I read his statements. He is not very bright. His sentences were full of double negatives, and poor syntax.

          • That was my impression, too. Another “hero” for the conservative movement — a man who “sticks by his principles” but is too dim to realize how incoherent his “principles” are.

          • As opposed to heroes for the White Privileged Wasting Daddy’s Money on Books About Indians Since I Never Met Any Real Ones Movement’s incoherent principles?

          • More than they care to admit, since the failings they cannot recognize in others are often the failings they can’t recognize in themselves.

            We all suffer that problem Of course, many (hopefully most) of us don’t lionize racist Sovereign Citizen-wannabe nitwits.

          • Yeah, but he knew how to use dashes and quotation marks and make a point about something greater than trivial irrelevant shit, like the freedom you aren’t really worthy of.

          • Not really. He was actual pretty humble and respectful and spoke like any other decent human being, and so did Ammon. You should try it sometime.

          • no, he does not look humble. I have NO idea where you live, but here in NEVADA he is known as an arrogant idiot…his church is not happy with him, the Nevada cattleman’s association does not like him, the neighbors that had OUR land (and yes, my grand mother was Native American) descimated by his cows, and felt threatened by armed insurgents wanting EVERYWHERE really don’t care for him. And why your dumb ass would think that I need to return SOMEWHERE is beyond me, and I get lots of exercise. As I mentioned, my family was here LONG before Bundy….Nez Perce, from Montana!! You, missy are an idiot, who speaks before finding out WTF she’s talking about.

          • Let me guess, your great great grandma was Cherokee LMAO, heard it from the last 10 wasicu wannabes trying to sound like they are gonna come up with some kind of magical “native cred” who have nothing to do with anything tribal. The only dumb FAT ass here is you, talking out it. The only tribe you’re a member of is the Hangs Around the Fort, yea we know that tribe LMAO. We’re from Nevada, white btch, and we have known the Bundys personally for 20 years and were THERE and will CONTINUE to be there, and you’re full of cowsht! The Bundys are well respected by their neighbors, especially the one who donated the use of his land right off that road that literally every car that drives by on honks and waves support, for the Victory concert that he’s so looked down upon that the whole area turned out for! So save it for your other asswipe braindead slaves who like it with a cattle prod, no one’s buying your BS here!

          • no Cherokee here. But you are nothing but a nasty piece of work. I really don’t care what you are. Just enjoy your life, because with your hateful attitude you have my sympathy and life must be a bitch for you!!

          • Funny, that’s the same thing Bundy said about you! Really? Not Cherokee? Hmmm I guess they had one too many white bitches try to sign up this year and turned you down!!!

          • Yea, you sound like a real NDN, “Hi, I’m Pat and I love the US government.” Must be from the Pretendian tribe LMNAO with the rest of your white ancestors ENIT?

          • I have NO idea who or what you are. But, like I said, my ancestry is Native American, and yours is obviously nasty shit…you are a nasty piece of work & since I have a great life I will bid your nasty self adieu. Not, as an old lady I will say GO FUCK YOURSELF & BUNDY!

          • Great! So you’re finally leaving! If you need any extra paddles, just let us know and we’ll make you some AUTHENTIC ones so you can show all your white relatives what you got at the trading post when you get back to Europe!! Some of us don’t have to Fck ourselves, that’s YOUR Fatass Wannabe Tribe tradition!!! Don’t get us involved in your sick sexual fantasies!

          • He uses the term loosely. You can have been in the same crowd. You can have done business with someont, but you don’t know someone indirectly unless maybe he belongs to the outlaw gang that Bundy does.

          • Outlaw gang LMAO. I didn’t see Butch Cassidy or the Sundance Kid down there. I didn’t see any 3/4 inch nuts either, so I guess you weren’t there and don’t really know shit and are talking out your ass as usual.

          • You poor dear, did you expect to see Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? They are the outlaws of another generation.

          • SERIOUSLY? You must be a special kind of stupid. that might be how you treat your women, if there are any, but not this one.

          • Your land? There’s no such thing as douchey hypocritical settler land, only OUR native land. So maybe it’s you who needs to get the F off and swim back home. It would be good exercise which you could use.

          • Liar, again. I read an op-ed piece written by someone who does know him. He was described as a loudmouth bully. If he goes to a public meeting, he shouts down everyone else and destroys the meeting.

          • Written by someone. That tells me nothing. I know what Rancher types are like. Well, I guess that is why everyone in the area stood behind him. By that I mean, the people in Las Vegas, Mesquite, Overton, St. George and Utah and Nevada as a whole. I grew up around Mormons. They tend to be very cliquey as are the rancher types. They also tend to be very outspoken, patriotic rebels. Knowing these people the way I do, the writing of a bias piece by your media means nothing to me.

          • No, that’s not what I said. But considering your pitiful attempts to troll me, obviously that’s the only reason YOU’RE here.

          • Not really. You’re kind of the pitiful settler who has been coming on my comments for the express purpose of stirring sht by asking intelligent questions like “Is Bundy Shoshone?” LMAO Another white man with no life.

          • The red pill or the blue pill? Which one did you take that made you braindead so I know not to take that one? LMAO

          • I tried to but you swallowed them all right before you came on here which kinda explains your posts.

          • Sorry, some of don’t need to take pills to make it through the day, so there should be plenty of Lithium left over for you!

          • You’ve been jumping on -my- comments, too, doofus.

            How can you call yourself an “editor” when you can’t even recognize rhetorical questions?

            Or maybe you can. In which case, you’re just throwing this out again to be a pest.

            Or a troll who “stirs sht up”.

          • I think we’ve identified the cause of your White Angst. It was all those years having no other option than sitting at the Nerd Table in the cafeteria where you mastered words like “doofus.”

          • When you’re 16, “nerd” is an insult.

            When you’re 36, “nerd” is a compliment.

            Now we know how old you are — emotionally if not physically.

          • Hey if “nerd” is the only compliment you get, I’m not gonna take your only source of self-esteem from you.

          • Pest = an unwanted invader where they don’t belong who just won’t go away, often in someone’s home. I know what it means cuz I looked it up in the dictionary and they had your profile pic for the illustration. Oh and I really don’t need to call myself an editor since it’s written right there on the front page. Let me know when you find that contract I signed agreeing to answer your bullsht random same old same old White Privilege Manifest Destiny questions with anything but ridicule which is all they merit.

          • I don’t think you understand. When I mock your claims to be an “editor”, I’m also calling the rag that hired you pure crap. Get it now?

            Dictionary insults. How puerile.

            Look up that word.

            “same old same old White Privilege Manifest Destiny questions”

            Be clear, Editor Colleen. Are my questions ABOUT “white privilege/manifest destiny” or do my questions derive FROM both sentiments? Because I in no way support Manifest Destiny. I do, however, support erasing white privilege — egalitarians tend to feel that way — despite being white myself. I don’t mind the “loss”. I’ll just have to endure. But nevertheless, it can and must be argued that the position I argue from is in fact unavoidably due to the fact that I AM white, and there is a good chance that if I was not, if my family and their ancestors shared the experiences that other non-whites in this country have had, I wouldn’t be even able to talk about this. That isn’t always the case — progress, thank heavens — but it’s still TOO common.

            Finally, you still have YET to connect anything related to Native Americans to Cliven Bundy. You mentioned only some half-baked delusional notion about state rights. But if that even were the case for the Shoshone (and I seriously doubt it), then they were badly duped. The state of Nevada has no power or privileges to create treaties with tribes. Never. Never ever. That would violate a core principle of federalism and a flagrant violation of the Constitution.

            Nope, the Shoshone have to deal with the federal government, just like Bundy. Nevada might be handle some of the transactions, but the federal government is the only governmental power in the USA that can enforce and uphold treaties — and I concur with most natives that it’s generally done a terrible job of that.

            But beyond de facto and de jure law, ideally speaking, why on earth would you trust Nevada politicians over DC politicians? They’re just as corrupt and oblivious.

          • Did you pay the last 300 Vanilla Twinkie White Privileged losers royalties on copying and pasting that Same Old Lame Old White Privilege I Don’t Know Sht About Natives Or Treaty Law So I’ll Just Repeat The Same Old Manifest Destiny Failure of The Public School System Whnefest we all heard already?

          • “Failure of The Public School System”

            Says the “editor” who doesn’t realize that “aborigine” with a lower-case “a” refers to any native tribe in any region of the world.

            IIIIIIIIIIIIII know about the Logan Act. IIIIIIIIII know the role of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Department of the Interior. IIIIIIIIIIIIII know enough about natives to know you’re talking out your ass about natives and recognize BS when it’s tossed on the windshield. IIIIIIIIII know that anything you disagree with is “whining” because you’re a witless troll whose sole purpose is not to engage in interesting conversation but to be an obnoxious pratty bigot and be laughed at by the whole forum community.

            Oh, except Joe. He likes you.

          • But the best part is where you know so many “natives” that they never bothered to tell you that we NEVER refer to ourselves as “aborigine” – ummm….or “Redskin” either. I figured I needed to make that last part clear too, since you’re kinda just a little Culturally Challenged as far as terminology goes and NEWS FLASH we don’t really go by the Twink Dictionary when we decide what’s appropriate and correct to call ourselves like you do. LMNAO.

          • Wow, so you finally admit that the federal government owes the Shoshone for the land they stole which means they never paid for it, do not own it, and have no jurisdiction on it. Which means they have no authority to even be there much less kick Cliven Bundy off. Unless of course, you’re refusing to acknowledge and honor the treaty. I would be SOOOO surprised if a white man didn’t honor a treaty. And since it’s Shoshone land, and Cliven offered to pay the state of Nevada,which is more than the federal government ever offered to do for the Shoshone, it would have to make you re-evaluate who are the real freeloading trespassers here if you faced the facts, huh? Oh, hmmmm maybe that’s why you have so much obsessiveness over this that you’ve spent all day talking your typical wasicu BS around it to deny it. The Dann sisters links are all over the pages I directed people to and paralleled with this incident but you’ve been too busy just masturbating to your own irrelevant non-professional non-respected worthless opinions all day. If I had any respect for what a nobody loser thought, I’d be devastated you have no taste or awareness enough to respect the media outlets I have worked for which you DON’T EVEN FUCKIN KNOW. Get a life and quit harassing natives just because this is the closest you’ll ever get to one.

          • “Wow, so you finally admit that the federal government owes the Shoshone
            for the land they stole which means they never paid for it, do not own
            it, and have no jurisdiction on it.”

            I acknowledged that from the beginning. All I was saying is that Bundy is no different from the government, and that you seizing upon his situation AS IF HE WERE SHOSHONE was disingenuous and opportunistic nonsense.

            “you’ve spent all day”

            Not true. I went to school for several hours and came home and found that YOU, in fact, had been all over this all day. I had a bunch of posts to catch up with, most of which were mindless insults.

            “media outlets I have worked for which you DON’T EVEN FUCKIN KNOW.”

            Your comments function — like it or not — as advertising for your websites. And your comments, being rife with witless vagaries and childish insults, indicates your websites are just as bad. Improve your marketing if you want people to think otherwise.

            “Get a life and quit harassing natives just because this is the closest you’ll ever get to one.”

            Horsecrap. Like I said, I know several natives. And while they’d agree with you (as I do) regarding treaty enforcement, only an idiot would see any parallels with the Bundy situation. Bundy has nothing to do with this and you know it. You’re REALLY stretching to make it count.

            And the only reason anyone would do that is because they’re partisan political hacks, and it has nothing to do with Native Americans.

          • Wow, I’m impressed that you are obsessed enough with me to keep harassing me and “catching up” LMAO just to have female contact even after you get through with Charm School. You should get a refund. But the best part is “I know several natives” – LMAO seriously, did you just copy and paste that right out of the Twink manual or what? LMAO. Feel free to go on all the pages of all the natives I actually DO KNOW who I actually can NAME because I KNOW them as opposed to these mysterious mythical natives you made up in your delusions, and tell them some dumbF white prick thinks he needs to tell them how to “fix” themselves and how they think and they’ll tell you the same thing I told you, STFU.

          • “Wow, I’m impressed that you are obsessed enough with me to keep harassing me and “catching up””

            Oh no, I just enjoy mocking trolls on Disqus, whether you or Joe or any other.

            “Twink manual”

            The what?

            “these mysterious mythical natives you made up”

            Uhh, no, I respect my friends’ privacy. They aren’t into the whole “feel free to share my webpage with the entire Internet” thing. I could give a flying eff if you think they’re real or not. They’re not Shoshone, at any rate. Unsurprisingly. I’m on the East Coast.

            “thinks he needs to tell them how to “fix” themselves”

            What the -hell- are you babbling about? Nobody is talking about “fixing” anything.

          • Translation = “I don’t really know any natives. I just made that sht up to make myself sound like an authority on natives so I could discredit the ACTUAL LIVING ONES who unlike my imaginary ones, have the courage to stand up for what they know is right, cuz I’m just another twink settler talking out my ass about natives being put in his place.”

          • False. a) I never made them up, I’m just not disclosing their identities to a hostile Internet troll; b) I never said me knowing them was any source of information. At all.

            Put in my place, am I? BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHA. Your fantasies are cute.

          • Yea, you must know these natives real well, since you have to ask me every time you don’t know WTF we are talking about to define our words and treaties LMAO you’re a POSER give up white boy and swim home LOL

          • What the heck does “twink” have to do with Natives? Are you saying Natives are all gay? That’s the only use of “twink” I’ve ever heard. lol.

            “like all the ones I named are not ashamed to,”

            Except they haven’t. You just named them. I could do that, too, and it’d be just as empty and meaningless. It’s the equivalent of saying “I’m right because Bob and Harry and Jimbo say so”. Try that at a debate. You’ll probably cause some heads to literally explode. Extreme stupidity can have that effect.

          • Apparently saying “twink” to twinks who pretend they have”native friends” to make themselves look like a authorities on natives ROTF, to tell natives how to think and speak and act so they can “fix” us LMAO has the same effect cuz we just had to wipe your brains off the screen. It looked like a booger, only smaller. Get some real native friends and you won’t need a dictionary to understand us LMAO.

          • Really? You enjoy mocking trolls? So we have something in common. I think you’re just lonely obviously and have no girlfriend so this is your only female contact since you’ve obsessed on an issue you don’t know sht about all day trying to fix all the REAL natives who don’t fit your version of what you settlers expect us to be.LMAO Still waitin for all those native friends of yours to come out and defend your stand kinda like all the ones I named are not ashamed to, kinda like we are not ashamed to stand for all our indigenous rights causes all day while you’re just jrking off here. What a loser.

          • Wow, I guess all the people with brains must like my comments, then, since I designed and supply Indian Country with the number one selling native
            shirt and poster of all time which needs no marketing LOL, and we have all kinds of celebs with a clue
            all over our site as we have for 10 years. And it’s pretty much worn by every native out there since we’re actually members of our communities respected who know pretty much everyone, while you’re kind of a nobody wasicu just whining all day.
            So maybe all the people who deal in reality unlike you seem to know something you don’t about who’s cool and who’s not, ENIT?

          • Generally speaking, “cool” is the Fonzie meter. Which means something is fun till it’s old.

            Not something to aspire to if you care about things that aren’t superficial.

            So your lack of need for “marketing” explains also why you lack anything coherent to say, and your tendency to leap at the throats of anyone whose politics you disagree with (you call it “whining”; in reality, it’s “not being a stupid idiot”). And if I were to take you at your word (psst, I don’t), I’d have to think all Native Americans were pseudo-libertarian nincompoops. Luckily, I know better.

            Fortunately, I’m not some hippy dopefiend who imagines natives to all be “wise and informed if tragically misunderstood”. I know they’re just like any other people — rife with more morons and half-wits than useful individuals. You’re an exemplar of the former. Good luck with your t-shirts.

          • I guess if the last person you saw who was cool was Fonzie that pretty much explains it. Thanks for all the Twink marketing advice but since all your alleged native friends are probably wearing our shirts and we’re pretty much widely known and respected in the native community, we’ll pass on it since we’re doin just fine without white douchebags to tell us how to run things, kinda like we’ve been for thousands of years. Something tells me we’ll make it without some nobody with nothing to do but harass women making up random sht about her he doesn’t know LMAO

          • By “making up”, I hope you mean “deduce”, because you’re as transparent as glass.

            “I guess if the last person you saw who was cool was Fonzie that pretty much explains it.”

            I guess if you even care about who’s “cool”, that explains a lot, too. But we’ve already been over this. You’re either 16 at heart or literally 16 years old.

            Which is kinda dirty, now that I’ve stopped to think about that. Yeah, let’s make this our last exchange of posts. I’m starting to realize you’ve got the hots for me and it’s very likely you’re jailbait.

          • Still here jerking it obsessively waiting for me to give you the only female attention you’ll ever get besides maybe the dog licking whatever you offer it this morning like you were all night, looks like. Sorry, we don’t eat white meat. Aerosmith called and left you a message. They said “Dream On.”

          • But hey thanks for asserting your White Privilege and telling us how to “fix” ourselves so you can approve of us, but no thanks, we don’t do boarding school. I like best of all how you put in all caps AS IF HE WERE SHOSHONE when no one ever said Bundy was Shoshone or was acting like he was Shoshone or had the treaty rights of the Shoshone. You’re a Fin waste of brain matter, just typical wasicu talking all around playing games with words to get out of how SADLY wrong you are. It’s pretty clear what I said, that Bundy owes the federal government NOTHING because they DON’T OWN THE LAND. They never paid for it. Simple concept. Get a 5 year old to explain it to you.

          • “that Bundy owes the federal government NOTHING because they DON’T OWN THE LAND.”

            That’s the first time you spelled out your position with the least bit of clarity. THANK YOU. It only took you 50 posts and 8 hours.

            Yes, it’s very simple.

            And misinformed. The position of Cliven Bundy is that the land is public use in that it’s for him only. This is a solipsistic position, an assumption that nobody else would or could use the land he is. That is patently false.

            Furthermore, every settler in the USA is under the coverage of the federal government. Therefore, when Bundy uses the land, he is exercising a power bequeathed onto him by the government. Insofar that the federal government is a democratically elected regime, Bundy has agreed to that. He may not like the current regime or laws, but as a citizen in that nation he is obligated to follow them and seek to change them legally. Contractarian theory. Love it or hate it, it’s what the white man set up via the Constitution.

            Vis-a-vis the Shoshone, then, Bundy is a citizen of the US. He has no more rights to the land than the federal government, in light of any violation of treaties with the Shoshone. Bundy is NOT “on his own” no matter what he may wish or imagine. He is a US citizen. The back-down of the BLM was -hardly- due to fear of the government of losing the confrontation. It was due to not wanting another bloodbath — a bloodbath Bundy and his militia buddies would have lost. Badly. Sure, a few federal agents would have gone down. But mostly just the rednecks.

            Thus, in context of political realities, your support of Bundy is either completely misled based on incoherent notions of political theory, or politically opportunistic as I’ve already described.

            Your argument about native rights is dead-on. Bundy’s just got nothing to do with it. There are no “word games” going on here. This is critical analysis of the facts that you’re choosing to ignore.

          • The only “fix” then that I would recommend is that Bundy be obligated to pay his back taxes or have his cattle stripped from him. Those assets should then be promptly awarded to the Shoshone or whichever other tribe has genuine claim. Though that’d only be a good faith payment. Much more is due.

          • I like how good of a government programmed slave you are. We all know what your position is — bent over! Actually we stated our position clearly from the beginning, you’re just too much of a dumbF with an agenda who sucks dck to the feds to admit it. Not rocket science. Keep talking your way around it, your words are meaningless as that federal claim to Shoshone land they never paid for.

          • Don’tdon’tdon’tdon’t.

            Let sleeping dogs lie. Colleen is nothing but a goofy troll saddled with inconsistencies and the logical soundness of a preschooler, spiced up with the vulgar non-sequiturs of an illiterate sailor.

            She has already explicitly stated that all settlers are freeloading losers EXCEPT Bundy, though she has yet to give a compelling explanation why. We can only speculate about that. Maybe she’s giving him a little somethin-somethin. Maybe she’s just a loudmouth nitwit who’s way out of her league, having strayed so far from libertariandouche.com or similar blog. Just don’t get her to come back -here-. Let the Memo’s standards crawl back up from the gutter where she’s trying to drag them.

          • I think most of us has admitted there was injury to the Native Americans. I didn’t do it. I wasn’t born.

          • Probably edits a hate rag, if anything. I am an editor and have been a technical writer. That hateful person isn’t likely to be involved with publishing except her own angry blog.

          • Colleen, you are a fraud. I rerun my Robert Redford Documentaries and there is no way a Nevada Indian would champion a rancher after what they did to them.

          • colleenll; Please stay on TOPIC. Please don’t become a troll. Sounds like you are the one “trying to stir sht”.

          • Nope, just making sure the shit you stir doesn’t smell as bad by disinfecting it! Stay on which topic, the red pill or the blue pill you took to numb your brain so you could blend right into The Matrix?

  5. I only hope the feds handle this matter through the courts, and do not turn this imbecile into another right wing martyr.

    • Like the ‘Occupy Wallstreet’ people. Seems not even a stink was made by your media over them. They were filthy and defecated all over everything. Bundy was only making a statement.

      • I am a member of Occupy ______. Our membership consists of one minister, 2 nuclear scientists, 5 school teachers, 2 small business owners, 1 water scientist, 1 laborer, 1 carpenter, 3 ranchers and some of those are retired. 5 of our members are over 80. Now, list the backgrounds of the people in your organization.

        • According to Wikipedia you were targeted as a terrorist group:

          ‘On December 29, 2012, Naomi Wolf of The Guardian newspaper provided U.S. government documents which revealed that the FBI and DHS had monitored Occupy Wall Street through its Joint Terrorism Task Force, despite labelling it a peaceful movement.’

          …and just what I thought….mainly begun by influencing the young and naivete….

          ‘Early on the protesters were mostly young, partly because social networks through which they promoted the protests are primarily used by
          young people. As the protest grew, older protesters also became involved. The average age of the protesters was 33, with people in their 20s balanced by people in their 40s.’

          • Wikepedia can be manipulated by readers. I haven’t checked it out, but that is not what I asked you. I asked you to name the type of people in your organization.

          • Not sure where you got your information, but that’s OK surfing the internet oftentimes results in different conclusions. Again, different viewpoints result in different answers.

        • Sounds more like you. At least I always have ‘constructive’ information to inject, whereas; you solely commence to cussing me out…..

          • You are a bully, you are a coward and you are a liar. You have never had anything constructive to say.

          • By “construct”, Joe means invent BS out of thin air. Of course, to give the BS an air of validity, he links websites. Problematically, he links BS websites. ROFL.

  6. I’m not sure your opinion about this issue is worthy of a comment, but in looking at the stand-off that occurred when the cattlemen went to get their cattle back from the BLM – it appeared that the BLM not only had tasers and dogs, but also snipers.
    As far as the courts these days with all that goes on behind closed doors, allowing for left wing/right wing AND foreign entities to continue to plunder the land in the name of “progress”, I think it is the behaviour of gov’t agencies and their corporate buddies which are pretty heavy handed.
    And to tell the public it had something to do with desert tortoises ??!! Really?

    • the folks that BLM had were not snipers; but the “militia” that the Moocher had were clearly well armed and posed a bigger threat, especially when they staretd talking about putting their women and chldren on the front lines to “do more damage” if the feds opened fire

    • Twenty years of letting this idiot do whatever he wanted on public lands is hardly heavy handed. The court cases were not behind closed doors. Go down to Federal court sometime and walk into any courtroom and look. The riflemen and guns on the I-15 freeway sure were not BLM employees or SWAT officers. They acted like they intended to shoot the BLM employees and / or the cowboys rounding up the cattle.

      Also, the desert tortoise preserve is in this area and its there to allow the continued development of the Las Vegas valley. We have tortoise here that need to be protected when development occurs. Why anyone would want to destroy these animals? We have one in our backyard and have had him for 24 years.

      • I think people who side with lawbreakers are not quite honest themselves. Our federal lands are in jeopardy. Right now, they are multiple use lands. When the special interest groups get their hands on those lands, will they be? Any of you like to fish, hike, hunt, camp?

      • For a number of years developers in the Las Vegas Valley paid large sums of money in desert tortoise mitigation fees to relocate tortoise to designated preserve areas. There is no legitimate justification for Mr. Bundy and his family to be utilizing the land for free. If he can’t afford to pay the fees to the BLM he needs to herd his cattle and move them to property he does own. If he had done that as ordered quite some time ago he wouldn’t have jeopardized his cattle in the BLM roundup. If he doesn’t own enough land to graze the number of cattle he has then he shouldn’t have that number of them. By the way, he’s 67 so he’s probably collecting Social Security. I guess he believes in the Federal Government for some things.

    • History, for your information, the BLM never used to have weapons of any kind until they were murdered by fugitives from the law.

    • Lets make the issue very clear. It is NOT his land. It does NOT belong to the state of Nevada. It has NEVER been under the legal jurisdiction of any other entity than the Federal Government since it was annexed after the Mexican American War.

      This fellow is stealing YOUR resources. They belong to you, and he is stealing them. He has no rights to the use of that land for free. He has no legal, moral, or ethical leg to stand on, and this is nothing but another anti-US sagebrush rebellion. Further, I believe taking up arms against the US government is called “treason”, so don’t paint this lowlife as some kind of oppressed patriot.

      That being said, it is hardly the first time this has happened and it will not be the last.

      The saddest thing is that any “news” agency would spin this illegal and treasonous act for their own profit.

      • Really?? How is it that he is stealing MY resources? He was using the land to graze cattle – some of which the BLM rounded up and slaughtered and buried. (Did they have something to hide?)

        So if the BLM leases out the public land for mining, fracking, putting up solar arrays, real estate development etc. etc. (anything that might make a bigger profit for already wealthy entities who probably don’t pay but half or less percentage in taxes – like you and I (unless you happen to be one of the 1% ? ) ) does anyone see a reduction in the taxes we pay out, does anyone ever see any positive return on “our” public lands??? I doubt it.

        Follow the money and I bet you’ll find that there have been plenty of back room deals made. And NOT to the benefit of the public good.

        The real low-lifes are those in expensive suits, who bend the law, write the laws, all in order to profit themselves and their crony partners.

        • Where do you get you information? This tale is about grazing rights on federal land. The other ranchers pay the fees. Why should he be treated differently?

          • This issue is about a whole lot more than paying fees to the federal government to graze cattle. Where do you get your information?

          • You can get your information from the horse’s ass’s mouth. The television station released the tapes of the entire affair. You can tell a person by their heroes.

          • LOL. What television station? Do they have the definitive collection of tapes? I’m sure they have a spin on it too. Everyone has a spin.

      • It is also irresponsible the way the BLM botched this incident. Killing Cattle…Seriously? Ruining infrastructure. Come on. 200 sitting on the hillsides with sniper rifles. Scary! The BLM was also in the wrong. Bundy could have payed the State which in turn could have payed the Government. You see that is not the reason. I mean just paying the fee. It’s all about getting him off the land because…..Mr. Reidtard made a pact with the Chinese Government that he cannot get out of. That being Solar panels. What an eyesore in a beautiful part of Las Vegas. Native American fertile ground with underground springs, desert grasses, tall Cottonwoods, a warm spring, the Virgin River feeds into Lake Mead. If the government agents would have been so concerned about those turtles then they would not have run over their habitats would they have? Now you tell me. You have been given half-truths, as usual….

    • So Bundy isn’t plundering the land for his own use? Really? That land is government owned and set aside for parks, etc.. It isn’t his land and he is a trespasser pure and simple! Arrest his ass and all his cohorts!!

  7. Jon Stewert really skewered this clown and Faux News, Hannity especially, the other night. What a commentary when the country’s 2 great satirists have more common sense than the Congress or news agencies.

  8. Very accurate summary of the situation. Why would any rancher support Bundy? What he really wants is for everything to be free. No taxes, no government, no law and order, no military, no social security. Just Bundy in his little dream world.
    When it gets hot out here, all of the Bundy supporters will disappear into the heat waves. Too bad we can’t get Senator Heller and other politicians that voice support for Bundy to go away just as fast.

    • We can stop eating beef unless it is privately raised and not raised on one of the big cattle ranchers. The government already subsidizes those anti-government cattle ranchers.

    • Absolutely right. Only if the other ranchers can get the exact same deal will they come out ahead. The state rate for running cattle on public land is 8-10 times higher than that hated, non-existent Federal government’s rates. All Bundy is going to do is destroy the small profit margins that the other law-abiding ranchers have, while he is getting his free ride.

    • Bullshit! He no longer trusts his government just like many of us do. We are over taxed, the government has its tentacles in everything, law and order (most of us are being suppressed) and Obama is now releasing how many felons from prison? Military? We need to keep it strong. 500,000-600,000, seriously? Social Security we need that for the elderly and disabled. Just you in the new USSA.

      Probably won’t get Heller to go away, or Paul or Cruz or Lee. Maybe the part of the West will rise again. I mean the West not the West Coast.

    • Yep. I love the “true blue Americans” like Bundy who honestly, genuinely, believe that they alone “tamed the West”. If it weren’t for the federal government — and especially the military — the westward settlers would have been slaughtered ten times over. The handful of militia actions against natives went terribly wrong, and only incited greater vengeance by the natives against civilian populations — ranchers like Bundy — who then promptly turned to the army and screeched for help. Some generals were all too eager to help. Others were furious that idiot rednecks would provoke Indian attacks and then demand the army defend them. Those soldiers frequently did their best to negotiate peace. And once in a while, they dealt with the idiot settlers rather than Indians. Not often enough to make things right, sadly.

      Nevertheless, today we have an entire breed of American who thinks he’s the heart of rugged individualism. Our real history constantly being swept under the carpet, because it’d poke all kinds of holes in their false, racist patriotism.

  9. What does FOX News do with these stories after they are clearly shown to be total and complete Bull Shit?…”Back Burner?”…Uh…”never mind?”….How about a follow up on this case of “Free-Grazing Cowboy” being bullied by the Feds?…and the “Clowns” backing him up?…insecure “wannabes” who want to be seen on National News totin’ guns and looking Patriotic?

    • They move on to the next set of lies until those become so obvious that even the morons who believe Fox have trouble doing so.

    • Here’s the spin Fox puts on it. They claim to be the only news agency (and I use that term loosely) to have sent reporters (hahaha) to Nevada to cover the story. Their viewers use that logic to believe what Fox is selling to them because no one else cares enough about this poor, oppressed cowboy to tell his side of the story.

  10. AND.. when I heard that they were willing go to use the women as human shields any sympathy I might have had went right out the window. what kind of low life uses a woman to shield himself?

  11. My family sold some property that became a park. I should build a house there because my family had a house there 100 years ago. Stealing is stealing. However, this is not the first time crap came from this part of Nevada. A few years ago, the ranchers decided it was okay to run cattle on the Indian Reservation. Quite a few years ago, an Idaho fugitive, from the law, was hiding in the back country of Nevada. Ranchers around there were feeding him. A couple of game wardens happened upon his camp where he was dressing a poached deer. They radioed back to headquarters and told them what they had found. Then they approached the camp and the fugitive shot and killed them. When they did haul the perp in, ranchers funded his defense. They demonstrated around the courthouse. Somehow, I am getting the picture that cattle ranchers are criminals.

    • My family lost their land to a reservoir and recreation area – now I actually have to pay a fee to visit my family cemetery there. I should build a house there too. And I’d already have one started, as the foundation of the house my grandmother was born in still exists.

    • I think the cure for the entire Bundy dilemma is napalm. Then we could have a big roast beef picnic while we sort out the mess.

    • One thing I have to warn you all about. Country/Ranch/Farm people stick together. I feel realllly sorry for the dude that got paid that exorbitant $900,000 to help out the BLM.(Wasted taxpayer money by the way) He will now be blackballed by the people who he lives around in Utah. Trust me these people are tough. Been around them most of my life. They not only stick together, help each other out, are extremely cliquey, are very calculating and they also know the back country like the back of their hands. I wouldn’t want to mess with them.

      Screw you….cattle ranchers are not criminals. They are true blue Americans, they know how to work hard, they pay their taxes and are conservators of the land. Don’t knock what you don’t know an iota about. They are the people who help put food in your mouth.

        • Neither did the first Americans recognize Imperialist Britains strangle hold on them. I know these type of people. You don’t. They are genuine Americas who feel they are slowly being encroached upon. They feel their rights flying out the window. They stand up for the flag and the nation. The Pledge of Alligience and God. They stick together and are the last of the ‘Mohicans.’ You just don’t get it and never will. You would rather forge into the future with this gradiose socialist Ideal of what you believe is the new modern world. It’s Communism that crept in the backdoor. A self proclaimed anti-colonial ideal led by an totalitarian propagandist God. You are the puppets on strings who march to Allnsky’s premise. In reality you are helping to dissolve a nation built on laws provided for the people by the people. You most likely live in the city and live by city rules and regulations. You know squat about the individuals who put food in your bellies. You know nothing about these conservators of the land and how passionate they are about this Country. Because America, the America we once knew and loved is foreign to you and your ilk. You would much rather run around in your reefer haze believing in a psuedo future for us all and sell our hearts and souls down the drain to false prophets capitalizing off your income. The Utopian America that you think you see on the horizon is rift with descent and lies and once you come down off your high it will be too late to save her. Thanks for nothing.

          • Exactly, Joe. Great job putting these government slaves and shills back in their places. They’ll all be wondering why none of us will be helping them fight the next wave of invaders off for them since they think the militia and 2nd Amendment and people like the Bundys aren’t “real Americans.” They can fend for themselves. They’re not worthy!

          • As “myths” go, when it comes to the 2A, one presiding myth (and it’s a myth because it wasn’t true) is that neither Germany nor Japan looked forward to invading the USA not because of “brave ranchers” and “stoic cowboys” but because of organized crime. They fascists feared the mafia, not the “true Americans”.

            Of course, it’s all BS. We’ve learned since that that myth derived from an -American- reporter putting words in German and Japanese officials’ mouths. They weren’t scared of invading us at all.

            But the point is, conservatives even screw up and distort the myths they love so much. Distortions within distortions — embarrassing.

          • Embarrassing distortions, like when you pulled down your pants and the goods didn’t match the packaging?

  12. There is a push in the states of Nevada and Idaho to take federal lands out of the hands of the federal government. It is not new. It has been called the Sagebrush Rebellion and Blue Ribbon Coalition. It is gaining momentum in Idaho now. Once that land is not controlled by the federal government, you can bet it will be up for grabs and no longer multiple use lands.

    • That’s exactly why the states should not be supporting Bundy against the Federal Government. If he gets away with continuing to graze his cattle without paying the fees all of the other ranchers who are currently paying fees will no longer feel obligated to do so. The income benefits the states would be looking forward to upon the exchange of land from Fed to state would be wiped out. The only way states would be able to make money off of the land would be by selling it to the highest bidders who would have no respect for it at all.

      • “The only way states would be able to make money off of the land would be by selling it to the highest bidders who would have no respect for it at all.”

        That is exactly what the State of Utah wants to do. Once this land is in private hands there will be no more subsidized grazing and punks like Bundy will be out of business.

        • West, you may want to check this, but seems, and you might want to check this, Harry Reid and Son have worked a land deal on this very property or portions of it, with a Chinese “Green energy” firm to build an extensive solar and wind farm.

          Nothing with the Fed is ever what it seems.

          • You might want to check your facts. That deal died over a year ago, Harry Reid had nothing to do with it and the land in question was more than 100 miles from the Bundy ranch in a different direction.

      • Guess what, idiot! We the people own that land. Not the Government. The intentions of the BLM were only meant to aide the leasee of the property. As of lately, the government has been asking for higher and higher taxes and grazing fees. What don’t you get….the people are speaking and if we don’t expect Bundy to pay the money and if he wants to pay the state isn’t that up to us?

        • Gee Joe, if you can’t compose a reply without resorting to name-calling you don’t actually deserve a response but let me try to simplify it for you. The land is currently under Federal jurisdiction. Mr. Bundy (and you) cannot decide who he wants to pay the money to, that decision was made by the Federal Court System. The State of Nevada and Clark County have already told him they cannot and will not accept payment from him because the land is not under their jurisdiction. If he seriously intended to make payment he would at the very least have put money into an escrow account in a good faith gesture. He is a freeloader who has done his best to stir up the anti-government radicals.

          • Of course, it’s not. We own our souls to the Government man. I’m not saying he should not have payed. I’m just saying the government handled it all wrong. Running over turtle habitats…..the very thing they were supposedly trying to protect….Come on!

          • Mr. Bundy had every opportunity to utilize his time wisely by having a cattle drive of his own to herd them onto property that he actually owns. If there are too many of them the ranchers who are currently supporting his efforts could have offered free grazing on their property. If he’d handled it that way none of this would have happened.

      • Isn’t that exactly what has been going on for years? Buying land cheap and then selling to the highest bidder – and the buyer doesn’t care whether or not the land is habitable after they have made their money and left the area? Just like the frack sand mining and the fracking that has been going on in Pennsylvania – check out Vera Scroggins and her documenting the fracking industry in her home state. I watched an online video of the massive lines of water and sand trucks, driving on rural roads and going into the area where they are fracking, much to the detriment of the roads – who is going to fix them?, the air, the soil.
        Big profits are all that the mining companies, investors, and politicians/lawyers are looking for. I wouldn’t doubt that they have multiple homes in multiple places – far away from the areas they are so busy making profit off of.
        Recently I heard that in California where the farmers are up against the drought, the gov’t is not allocating above ground water because of the shortage, BUT, (and here is the kicker) they can’t get water from underground because it is so contaminated with nitrates. “Better Living Through Chemistry” !!!

        • That is what happened in Washington State. My brother was a high school teacher in a small town that lay in a valley between two mountains. He lived on the mountain on the west. One of the most dreadful things, I ever witnessed, took place on the mountain on the east. They clear cut it. have you ever seen them clear cutting? They have huge chains. The links are as high as a man. They fasten them between two big machines and mow the trees down, leaving the mountain completely bare. The mountain that I first saw with beautiful pine trees covering it, was completely bare. Then the winds came and blew roofs off buildings. The rains washed the mountain down on the town in mudslides. My brother started hating the logging industry. They had raped the pristine mountain and left her for dead.

          • …..and they also replant trees. Are they doing that in the rainforests. Maybe you should make yourselves more useful and hit 3rd world countries. Contribute to their ruination of land. America has always been on the bandwagon of environmental causes. Yet we forget how other countries ruin their natural resources. Look at the pollution in China for instance. Give me a break. Ranchers are conservators of the land. Meaning they take care of it whether it is theirs or the governments. You are a typical city idiot who knows nothing about living off the land. Do you really think that Farmers want to ruin the very property they need to keep their animals and crops going. When you take away the land from the very people who take care of it what do you think comes in…..I know this all too well. Development my friend. Development and control.

            Also, where I live there used to be ‘control burns.’ The indians also did control burns because it cleared the brush so that when the rain fell in the spring it could feed the herds of animals that came in to graze which in turn provided food for the Natives. Ranchers have always done this. It kept the land pristine for grasses so that cattle had more to graze on so that you had food to eat. This is no longer allowed and guess what. When we have fires around here they now take houses and lives and livestock all because you think it’s wrong. Same goes for the creeks that used to get cleared of the brush. You thought it was endangering some red legged frog. As a result of all the brush in the creeks, when it rains we have ‘uber’ flooding. No, you just don’t get it. Poor you…..

          • Farmers and ranchers generally may not want to ruin the land being used, but there’s ample evidence that Bundy did.

            Probably because he’s not all that bright.

          • At this point I have to agree with you. What he stated today was unjustified. You see I will admit when I am wrong…..but I know you won’t. Makes me a better person for it:)

      • And the next places they might want to graze on will be the public campgrounds, so it will no longer be multiple use lands.

    • Except the conservatives haven’t really thought this through. If they kick the federal government off that land, that means they also kick out the military – and Nevada itself, if I remember right, has more military acreage than any other state. Which means it will likely never happen, because if you threatened the military in that way, chances are even the most private property-minded D.C. conservative would fight it.

      • Unfortunately for conservatives, once a non-thinker, always a non-thinker. But I think you are right. To get the attention of those poor starving conservatives, all one must do is hit them in the wallet.

      • The scary part is that our Governor and our Conservative leaning Reps/Sen. will do whatever it takes to win an election so it could very well happen. They would have to thing of all of the negative consequences and not just their personal gains and they generally don’t do that.

        • Or if they are hit in the wallet based on their own actions, they’ll simply turn around and blame liberals / mainstream media / the federal government / immigrants / the Fox News Enemy Du Jour.

    • Which guy is a hero? Stewart, or Bundy? If Bundy, please continue.
      Just let it fly! Tell all us panty waisted Liberals what Bundy is really
      all about! You couldn’t do any worse than Fox News.

        • Oh, the government is awake alright. Lose a case
          in court that says you owe Uncle Sam a million dollars, and find out. Mr. Bundy says he doesn’t
          recognize the authority of the Fed. Govt. Someone
          needs to inform him, the Fed. Govt. is totally unlike climate change, racism, or Obama’s birth certificate.
          Denying it’s existence is not an option.

    • Bundy? Yeppers just like all the gun toting, cowboy hat wearing lowlifes that wrap themselves in a flag and call themselves patriots! Patriots of what? They deny the US Government! So patriots of what?

          • have you ever been to Nevada.. its just sand and timble weeds. What can the cows hurt. big fu*king deal. This will start happening all over the country

          • You know something, I live next state to Nevada and I still say criminals support criminals. “Just a few cattle can’t hurt anything” is like it was okay for the shoplifter to steal that dress, the store has so many they won’t miss one.

  13. This is the best piece I have seen or read anywhere on the Bundy matter. Of course, I am biased because my uncles raised cattle on farms in Illinois. They were second generation farmers. I’m sure they each had guns for hunting, but I never saw them in their homes or sheds or anywhere. One was a member of the local school board and highly civic-minded. The other broke his neck trying to save a cow stuck in a ditch shortly before he died in his seventies. These days, my cousins work with farmers, at grain elevators and as CPAs, whatever, but the family farm was sold, because it was so hard to make a go of it. Even so, there is something about caring for livestock that enriched our lives, a decency that has nothing to do with Bundy and the clown olympics for adults going on in Nevada.

    • Then you should be reminded about what a tough and admirable American you uncle was and that you should have some understanding for the heart and sole of the way Bundy thinks….

      • You misunderstand. Raising cattle was a way of life for my uncles, who were proud Americans. In Bundy, they would have seen a guy pretending to something he was not, someone they’d call “all hat, no cattle”: Lyons said it definitively: it’s just a “costume drama” going on in Nevada.

        • Really, Iowa…..midwest. Just as you don’t get true blue Americans, you don’t get westerners either because they are the last of a breed. I know them well. We ran ranches for several decades. I did say that what Bundy did as far as not paying for grazing fees was wrong but the Government keeps raising them and raising them. They are pushing away a way of life and selling this country out in every way. They got rid of the forest industry, they are getting rid of the fuel industry, now they are working on farming/ranching. Now we believe they are going after the water rights as well. Guess what you fool, wake up. We develop nothing nor are we allowed to touch our resources. What’s left for us…..annexation to Mexico. Have you seen how those people live. They have nothing and their Government is corrupt as hell. Wake up! No costume drama. We are walking around with our eyes wide open. We know there is something sinister going on while you all walk around with rose colored glasses on and eyes wired shut.

  14. Mr. Bundy knew very well the date his parents bought that land. And, now, so do his supporters, including the “inciteful” Fox News, who sought not to research Bundy’s truthfulness or lack thereof, as most credible journalist do, but rather sought to exploit it with false accusations for better ratings for their Supermarket Tabloid fodder. However, after yesterday’s Supreme Court hearing, even false statements are entitled to First Amendment protection. Fox News has the “right to lie.” Even if their ethics are archaic and oft-times false, the Court ruled that outlawing false statement creates the potential for abuse that is ‘simply too great’ for the First Amendment to bear.”

    So, it’s ok to violate the law by lying? You’re protected by the 1st Amendment. And that sniper rifle? Just another form of free expression, protected this time by the 1st and 2nd Amendment. Only I don’t remember our Founding Fathers encouraging our citizens to point their guns at the authority of the Federal government as a means of protest and free expression. Have we outgrown, not the principles, but the “context” of our Constitution?

    • That makes a lot of sense. If money is speech, why not bullets? Money just gives the person who has it the ability to speak more loudly to make sure his point is heard. Well, what I see in the desert is people using guns to amplify their voices and make sure the government hears them. Its just a matter of time before the Supreme court decides the 2nd amendment gives people the right to take their gun to the polls and make sure other voters hear them when they insist you vote tea party.

      • Your nuts! That will never happen. The people you so unaffectionately call the TP would never force anything on anyone. But your side has and does. Remember, we do have a 2nd amendment. I think most of you are forgetting that.

        • Your education, or lack of it, shows unless you are using the possessive your and do mean your nuts as opposed to you’re nuts. You’re is a contraction of you are.

          • LOL, let me guess….English professor or older than me. Awww what can I say. It was my Liberal education…..

          • Try investing in some quotation marks to put around things like “your nuts” if you really want to pass 3rd grade English and be an editor like me when you grow up. They shouldn’t cost much since you only need a size small to go around YOUR nuts. Oh, and a dash after “shows” only costs 5 cents more, so you must be as cheap as you are stupid.

          • Before you start dissing the government, remember they have been trying to make it up by subsidies. I am sure you refused to take that money. Or you might be one of those with 1/100 Native American Blood who stepped right up with your hand out.

        • Horsecrap. There are several incarnations of the TP. Now maybe yours is extra-hippy liberal (in the proper sense of the term). But MOST TP groups are anything but inclusive. That’s why after the first year the TP bled a lot of supporters, many of who formed spin-off groups because they couldn’t take the illiberal Christian fundamentalists and old white farts who couldn’t and still can’t recognize their own racism.

        • We have your 2nd amendment which isn’t even close to the original because you have preverted it to support your whacked out views!

          • Really, don’t think there would be a problem if it would stay intact, comrad.

            “A free people ought…to be armed”
            -George Washington

            “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
            -James Madison,
            The Constitution of the United States of America

            “[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”
            -James Madison

            “Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it’s not an individual right or that it’s too much of a public safety hazard, don’t see the danger in the big picture. They’re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don’t like.”
            -Alan M. Dershowitz

            “The Second Amendment is timeless for our Founders grasped that self-defense is three-fold: every free individual must protect themselves against the evil will of the man, the mob and the state.”
            -Tiffany Madison

    • I just read an article in the Las Vegas Sun today.It was written by a Jay Ambrose who is an op-ed columnist for McClatchy-Tribune. He’s still insisting that “Bundy’s forbears arrived in the 1870’s,” so some are still not accepting that it’s been a much shorter time.Which is meaningless really since it still only means that they were squatters & never owned the land so have no legitimate right to it.

    • Then MSNBC has the right to lie. The Liberals have all you sheeple hood winked. Archaic! I think not. You may as well turn it around and make that same statement to include your own media. You pray to protect the desert tortoise and yet the BLM completely desecrated their habitat. You don’t even care. Ranchers are conservators of the land. I should know because we ran ranches for decades. The ranchers and farmers take care of the land. Initially that was the BLM’s job. Yes it was wrong that Bundy did not pay his taxes. Most Conservatives would not argue with that fact. But couldn’t he have done what he said he wanted to do which was pay the State. Then the State could have payed the Government what he owed. It would have been a feasible fix.

      1 sniper rifle on a bridge when they were surrounded by 200 on the hillsides. Come on, is this still the America that you know?

      By the way our founding fathers never wanted us to have two parties either. They thought we could amicably handle things amongst the states with the help of representatives. Guns? Americans pointed guns at the opposing English yarns ago because they disagreed with the overbearing British Government. We know the result of that fight. Boy, wouldn’t they be rolling over right about now. That is, just to see how much government has infringed in our lives…. Pretty bad.

      You don’t know your history, you no longer believe in what was once known as the Constitution. Give me a break!

      • You know what, stupid and proud of it, anyone who learns what is going on in the world through any television program is lazy and biased to begin with.

        • That means you doesn’t it. I have been around the block a time or two. I believe my family members who have lived through various regimes. I grew up with the knowledge of what was going on around the world and I knew that the information that was fed to Americans was often lies. I have traveled extensively. I listen to people who have been there done that. I have lived in the city and lived in the country. So my knowledge is not that typical TV knowledge that most Americans are fed. I’ve known about all this from the time I was a child because my parents were educated, from Europe and knew the difference between what was free and what was not.

          Lazy, not in my blood…..biased? Not! Life my friend, life experience….

          • “life experience….”

            Yep, that’s the conservative by-line nowadays. “I don’t need scientifically verified facts, I have my own personal experience! That’s why I know climate change is a fraud.”

          • LOL, Really you want to hit Cimate change. Why don’t you look it up.
            1) Obama threatened to defund NASA because they were claiming there was no Climate change.
            2) The earth is closest to the Sun than it has been for centuries.
            3) Solar flairs.
            4) Their has been more ice in the Anarctic than there has been. They predict more of an ice age than the warming you nuts claim
            5) Weather is cyclical.
            6) Millions have been made by Scientists jumping on the Global warming bandwagon….. No facts huh? Look it up…

            Article Febuary 11, 2014:

            ‘A small army of scientists lined their pockets with government grants to
            produce data that supported the utterly baseless charge that carbon
            dioxide was causing the Earth to warm. They castigated other scientists or people like myself as “deniers” while we proffered to call ourselves
            skeptics. They were joined by most of the media that ignored the real science. And the curriculums in our schools were likewise corrupted with
            the hoax.’

            People in the U.S., England, Europe and other areas of the world who do not possess Ph.ds in meteorology, climatology, geology, astronomy, and
            chemistry have begun to suspect that everything they have been told about global warming is false. Between 1300 and 1850 the northern
            hemisphere went through a mini-ice age. After that it began to warm up again. So, yes, there was global warming, but it was a natural cycle,
            not something caused by human beings.

            http://www.tpnn.com/2014/02/11/science-settled-there-is-no-global-warming/

            Antarctic sea ice hit 35-year record high Saturday

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/09/23/antarctic-sea-ice-hit-35-year-record-high-saturday/

          • You know what, your poor pathetic ding-a-ling, you can find anything on the internet that will back up anything you want to believe.

          • 1) Try getting your news from a website that isn’t partisan like the tpnn.

            2) To avoid getting WAY off-topic, I will simply say this. Debating climate change with climate change deniers is like trying to convince a Nazi that a Jew is, in fact, a human being. All the evidence in the world won’t make a difference. They’ve got their beliefs, and you’ve got yours. And you’ll cherry pick facts to support your beliefs, ignoring the bigger picture not because you can’t see it, but because you don’t WANT to see it.

            To simplify, rationalwiki provides wonderful summaries of this particular issue within the context of DENIAL.

            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial

            All your friends and champions and their half-baked arguments are there. And properly mocked. Feel free to examine many other conservative topics there. Also, plenty of liberal moonbats are exposed on rationalwiki. Because it’s about what’s correct, not what’s political convenient.

            What you will find is that most deniers’ evidence falls astray of the simplest of logical fallacies. But simple people don’t pick up on simple fallacies.

          • Oh…so you are one of those….believers. Let’s face it. It’s human flatulence (not cattle) that creates the green house gases which, in turn, develops a shift in the ozone layer invoking Global warming. Wow, what a concept…….What should we do. Hmmmmm…I bet you will say let’s eliminate some Republicans. Just think Nasa got in trouble because they decided to tell the truth that they later had to retract because King Obama threatened to defund them. Tsk, Tsk. In 10 years we shall see who was right and who was wrong. Fox News (who I know you hate) just had a segment on ‘Earth Day’ and addressed that very issue. They compared some of the ridiculous statements that had been addressed in the past that never happened. They were insanely ridiculous. Just had to laugh.

            Partisan? LOL, news and media are either one way or the other you idiot….and you would judge Wiki? I believe oftentimes it is not bias and rather follows the middle of the road. It would take someone like you to misconstrue information.

            Honestly, you would twist the truth to make it sound relevant to your political agenda even if a certain issue was plagued by untruths.

            At least the Conservatives are willing to admit when they are wrong and at least we have a voice because, in the past, we never did and had to put up with all the Liberal bullshit we were fed by Liberal media who ruled the airwaves. I think….you cannot stand the fact that we have a voice. You hate it! Too bad we still have a 1st Amendment.

          • “In 10 years we shall see who was right and who was wrong.”

            Remember the dire warnings of doom and gloom back in the 60s and 70s because of pollution? Remember how they never came true? Why didn’t they come true?

            a) Because they were the frantic warnings of environmentalists and hippies.

            OR

            b) The government responded (instead of denying the existence of pollution vehemently) and dished out the funds to clean up the rivers and other polluted hot spots.

            We’re once again faced with another “doom and gloom” forecast. And once again, the possibility of why those forecasts won’t come true comes down to a) or b).

            But history is NOT on your side. Actually, it never is. That’s part of the problem with conservatism. The ugly truth of history tells a different story than conservatives prefer to romanticize. (Some liberals romanticize, too. We were talking about Indians earlier. Some liberals still even today imagine Indians as “wise and informed yet tragically exploited and sad”. Truth is, the natives are just people, with many more idiots than so-called wise men.)

            “follows the middle of the road.”

            I’ve listened to clowns like Krauthammer speak. They’re champions of the fallacy of the false middle. Not impressed. Nor would be anyone that admires logic and fact instead of what sounds nice.

            “plagued by untruths.”

            Which you have yet to expound upon. You insist liberalism is rife with them but are incapable of calling them out, or when you try and I refute your claims, you are silent. I know, I know. You lose interest.

            “At least the Conservatives are willing to admit when they are wrong”

            That’s a laugh and a half. Though I won’t disagree that many liberals refuse to admit when they’re wrong, too. That little problem isn’t a right or left-wing problem, it’s a human ego problem both sides suffer in spades.

            “Liberal bullshit we were fed by Liberal media who ruled the airwaves.”

            Nonsense. The Fairness Doctrine required both sides to be heard. Conservatives have ALWAYS cast malicious aspersions on liberal point of views. And I mean always. Since the dawn of time, before America ever existed. The only difference between now and way back when is that conservatives don’t get to burn liberals at the stake for heresy anymore.

            “you cannot stand the fact that we have a voice. You hate it! Too bad we still have a 1st Amendment.”

            Not at all. I enjoy that you have a voice.

            Have you read JS Mill? You absolutely must. Seminal author on liberty and rights. At least read “On Liberty” if not also “Subjection of Women”.

            Mill recommends — in fact, scorns people who don’t do this — that people listen to and engage with people of different beliefs and ideas. It’s how you exercise the brain. That’s why I don’t mind conservatives wandering over to forums like the Memo or NoC.

            Problematically, conservatives have — and this is nothing new — expect and demand equal treatment of their beliefs. Courtesy-wise, we all need a lot of work; the Internet is awful that way. But I’m not talking about that. I’m not talking about weighing the validity of one another’s ideas.

            Conservatives get furious when their ideas are analyzed, criticized, weighed, and found wanting. They accuse the critics in question of being biased, stupid, liberal, Communist, the whole nine yards. This even, pathetically, extends to the professional world. Professional academics with decades of learned experience are utterly despised by conservatives.

            The handful of academics that conservatives can call their own likewise join that rancor. The reason is simple. Peer review is not the friend of populist drivel, which is what conservatives push as ideology. Their beliefs do not stand up to the rigors of scientific method, and consequently they seek to go AROUND scientific method. (We see this most clearly in the ridiculous debate over creationism/ID.) Thus, the Internet is a true boon to conservatives. It gives you the voice that you lack — not because of some liberal conspiracy or monopoly over the media — but because learned scholars reject your garbage. And I don’t mean they dismiss it out of hand. They tear it apart. (Although since conservatives keep pushing the same tired old ideas that have been already been thoroughly dismantled, most scholars don’t even bother anymore. It’s a waste of their time and therefore our tax money.)

            And conservatives can’t handle that. They cannot handle professional criticism.

          • P.S. Before the Internet (and of course, still today), conservative scholars who knew their “research” would be scrutinized and torn apart skipped over peer review by publishing in book form instead of to scientific journals. E.g., “The Bell Curve”. Looks scientific. Reads scientific. But it was never peer-reviewed. Once it was published, it was peer-reviewed (and SHREDDED), but the damage was already done — millions of racist morons who know nothing of statistics were already made believers by fake science.

          • Actually, I was not going to respond to this mumbo jumbo, however; felt compelled to do so. By the way the first part of your writing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Yes, it was the hippies and environmentalists who were the dooms ‘dayers’ and still are today. But join the club.

            First off, who started that scare regarding the pollution debate. Certainly not the Conservative. The gloom and doom over pollution and climate change and anything referring to the environment was put into play by the Liberally minded.

            For example, when I was a young child I remember how polluted LA was. You couldn’t even drive through that town without your eyes burning or getting a headache. I also remember that by a certain year we would not have enough nutrients in the soil to be able to grow food. So we got rid of the polluting factories and leaded gasoline. We found new ways to nurture the soil. We rotated crops using nitrogen based crops and developed fertilizers that replenished the soil. We also got rid of DDT. Now DDT was very beneficial when it came to dealing with insects. One of the main reasons it was discontinued was not because of the harm it created for humans but because it was harmful to a bird species of some sort. (Should I believe this? Not sure. It was a scare tactic by the Liberal minded to get it off the market)

            Go forward several decades and we have Global warming. This has been the BIGGEST money maker for Liberals for decades and it simply is false. Liberals have scared the ‘bejesus’ out of people world wide with this insane theory. However that debate is also being coveted as mostly false.

            FACTS;
            A spokesman for Al Gore has issued a questionable response to the news
            that in October 2007 the High Court in London had identified nine
            “errors” in his movie An Inconvenient Truth. The judge had stated that,
            if the UK Government had not agreed to send to every secondary school in
            England a corrected guidance note making clear the mainstream
            scientific position on these nine “errors”, he would have made a finding
            that the Government’s distribution of the film and the first draft of
            the guidance note earlier in 2007 to all English secondary schools had
            been an unlawful contravention of an Act of Parliament prohibiting the
            political indoctrination of children.

            Ms. Kreider says the IPCC’s results are sometimes “conservative,” and
            continues: “Vice President Gore tried to convey in good faith those
            threats that he views as the most serious.” Readers of the long list of
            errors described in this memorandum will decide for themselves whether
            Mr. Gore was acting in good faith. However, in this connection it is
            significant that each of the 35 errors listed below misstates the
            conclusions of the scientific literature or states that there is a
            threat where there is none or exaggerates the threat where there may be
            one. All of the errors point in one direction – towards undue alarmism.
            Not one of the errors falls in the direction of underestimating the
            degree of concern in the scientific community. The likelihood that all
            35 of the errors listed below could have fallen in one direction purely
            by inadvertence is less than 1 in 34 billion.

            We now itemize 35
            of the scientific errors and exaggerations in Al Gore’s movie. The
            first nine were listed by the judge in the High Court in London in
            October 2007 as being “errors.” The remaining 26 errors are just as
            inaccurate or exaggerated as the nine spelt out by the judge, who made
            it plain during the proceedings that the Court had not had time to
            consider more than these few errors. The judge found these errors
            serious enough to require the UK Government to pay substantial costs to
            the plaintiff.

            1) Sea Level rising
            2) Pacific islands drowning
            3)Thermoline circulation stopping
            4)CO2 driving temperature
            5)Snows of Kilamanjaro melting
            6) Lake Chad drying up
            7) Hurricane Katrina Man made
            8) Polar bear dying
            9) Coral reefs bleaching
            10)10 ppv of Co2 ‘melting mile thick ice
            11)Hurricane Catrina man made
            12) Japanese typhoons “a new record”
            13) Hurricanes “getting stronger”
            14) Severe tornadoes more frequent
            15) The sun “heats the Arctic Ocean
            16) Artic “warming fastest”
            17) Greenland ice sheet unstable
            18) Mountain glaciers world wide ‘disappearing’
            19) Many tropical diseases ‘spread through global warming”
            …..you can read the how’s and why’s to the article here:
            http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html

            …and who did you say was belching out gloom and doom? Oh and by the way, what about the one that stated there would no longer be any fossil fuel left by this time.

            Yes, I would admit with you on ego and vouching for what is right or wrong on both sides.

            “Conservatives get furious when their ideas are analyzed, criticized,
            weighed, and found wanting. They accuse the critics in question of
            being biased, stupid, liberal, Communist, the whole nine yards. ” (Well this also goes for the Liberal side)

            As far as your statement regarding ‘academics.’ I was one. Academics are not always correct in their theories. The problem being that many academics never leave the confines of the classroom and that initially leads to problems in dealing with what is factual or what is just well-read research. Relatively, reading does not constitute a complete knowledge of being in the position of actually being there unless you are an academic scientist who receives funding for research that you later share in the classroom. Then being a scientist is deduced to certain findings relevant to heresay. Laws come into play. Theories are just that, they have not been proven. The result then is to have paper upon paper that reinforces multiple findings without relevant conclusions that would result in a law.

            Innately, humans are flawed on both sides of the isle. One blames the other for propaganda that is actually mostly fabricated to scare the masses into believing one way or the other. Add onto that the life experience we all have that sets the wheels in motion and solidifies our belief system.

            The HUGE problem we face today is not issues that face the world because it will keep building on itself. The problem we have is with our self and the fact that because of intrinsic differentiality and the unwillingness to work together we are faced with nothing but a stone wall. If you will, a divide. The divide leads to more destruction and eventually will end in a bad way. Instead of working together to come to a resolution one side pits the other. For example, I have to bring up the fuel issue. I don’t get the fact that while we are bringing electric cars and solar/wind energy up to par, why we cannot also add the pipeline and other fuel sources into the scheme of things until cleaner energy is the mainstay. Propane and natural gas are clean energy. Actually, the pipeline in Alaska is only helping the reindeer population. It has been proven. Europe is littered with pipelines and, if you will, are more environmentally conscious than we are.

            So you see the debate is not to pit and that is where the Liberal agenda stands today. By not being team players it has only angered Conservatives. Do you really think it is fair to make the rules one-sided? We think Obama is doing just that. In my opinion it shows how inexperienced and immature he really is.

            That is my beef and I think that is the stance of many Conservatives today. Honestly, I think humans will destroy themselves before the Earth dies because of their block headedness.

          • “One of the main reasons it was discontinued was not because of the harm
            it created for humans but because it was harmful to a bird species of
            some sort”

            Uhh…ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, boy.

            RE: Al Gore

            The consensus of climatologists who support climate change are of mixed feelings regarding Inconvenient Truth. They are pleased that it helped to spread awareness of climate change, but were put off by the exaggerations you just enumerated.

            Yes. Nothing you just listed is unknown or a mystery to climate change. None of that changes the validity of -real- climate change. It’s like what Bruce Lee did for the martial arts. His own martial arts were sloppy and simplistic (by his own admission), but he popularized the martial arts throughout the Western world.

            “Theories are just that, they have not been proven”

            How can you say that and claim to have been an academic in the same breath? Especially in the context of empirical research like physical science.

            “Actually, the pipeline in Alaska is only helping the reindeer population. It has been proven.”

            The pipeline’s benefits to reindeer are circumstantial; a fence would have the same effect, and without the problems of potential spills.

            “Europe is littered with pipelines and, if you will, are more environmentally conscious than we are.”

            The vast majority of oil pipelines in Europe are in Eastern Europe and part of the Russian trans-continental oil production, and Russia is just as anti-climate change as conservatives in America. One more reason conservatives love Putin.

            “Do you really think it is fair to make the rules one-sided?”

            Which rules? Rules of coherence and logical sensibility? Yes. They are one-sided. All you can do is be on the right side of the argument, regardless of what that means for your political beliefs.

            Or you can stay partisan and wrong.

          • “They are one-sided. All you can do is be on the right side of the argument, regardless of what that means for your political beliefs.’

            Geez, I have a huge problem with that comment because I think it is a cop-out and invokes your political affiliation down our throats. Did that even occur to you?

            French economist, ‘Thomas Piketty’ (he really does not have the stats to make his assumptions but nonetheless) book ‘Capital’ is number 1 on Amazon’s bestseller list? Have I not been saying along that you people have leanings toward Communism. You see I hate communism because I see what it does to people. How it ruins Countries, leaves you little to live on, you have to stand in line for food, innovation halts. If this is what you want because you just love the notion of sharing with everyone and going backwards in time, so be it. It really is sad that you no longer want an America. It was a great concept that didn’t last. Maybe that’s why they say ‘freedom isn’t free.’

            The reason Conservatives love Putin is because he has more leanings towards Nationalism. I truly believe that he has no use for the UN. Russia has just come through the ravages of decades of Communism. You idiots are welcoming it in the front door. Shaking head….the very thing he wants to avoid.

            I really don’t think it was only the Liberals realization that pollution was bad. I think we all knew that. The problem now is when do we maintain a level median. Your newest ideas are getting more and more extreme. Everything has to be done with reason, and your reasoning is getting a bit too far fetched for some of us. I myself am a big proponent for saving many African species and whales and dolphins. I am not stupid to the fact that we need to protect our wildlife and forests. I believe that both Liberal and Conservatives have conservation sense. Where the problem begins is the fact that you hammer the US constantly with some ridiculous environmental issues yet ignore other countries who are doing some major polluting damage.. Namely, China, Mexico, South America……

            A wealthy country has the funding to help protect the environment. A poor country only thinks about how can we make money to put food on the table. Think about that next time you want to share the wealth.

            By the way, shock of shocks, I did teach at the college level. I left because I wanted to start my own business and my degree is not in a science related field.

          • “Did that even occur to you?”

            Did the fact that the paragraph that followed occur to you to be completely partisan and presumptuous?

            That’s what -really- separates the discourse between liberals and conservatives. When someone on the far left starts talking about Communism, liberals ignore him at worst, scorn him at best. When someone on the far right starts talking crazy, the far right doubles down and supports him. (Of course, we see exceptions — Rand Paul backed off of Bundy after the racist comments. But there’s a good reason for that. *sing-songy* Twenty-sixteeeeeeeeeeeeeen.)

            See, on the left you get crazies just like you get them on the right. But the core themes of the left are not merely political. They’re academic. Which of course is why the right hates academia and does its best to paint academics and scientists as ivory towers (ironically, such remarks come from conservative think tanks, which are the quintessential “white men packed into a smoking room”.)

            “Where the problem begins is the fact that you hammer the US constantly with some ridiculous environmental issues yet ignore other countries who are doing some major polluting damage..”

            Yeah, two wrongs don’t make a right. Pretty standard afternoon special wisdom there. Also, America’s foreign policy — including (especially) conservative foreign policy — has been to lead as a rolemodel, not cop out of moral and ethical requirements because 3rd World potholes aren’t.

            “Think about that next time you want to share the wealth.”

            I recommend reading Thomas Pogge’s work on cosmopolitan justice qua negative duties, if you really want to talk about economic justice on the international scale.

            “It was a great concept that didn’t last.”

            Damn straight it didn’t last. We can blame the political trend Andrew Jackson started in the 1820s.

          • Like the guy, I heard about, in Oregon. He put a bucket of ice in his bathtub and it didn’t overflow when it melted so that proved there isn’t climate change. Natural born scientist.

        • Nope! Because I don’t back down…… Not only that you have no fuel to argue with. Just your typical dribble which relates to nothing….

        • We have a seer and someone that probably thinks God talks to him! Please tell us what false prophetss the Liberals worship? I want to get my names right when I do my worshipping!!

  15. As John Stewart put it so nicely, if this deadbeat wants to deny the legitimacy of the Federal government, shouldn’t he at least create his own flag?

    • Call his militias the “Nauvoo Legion” to Bundy’s supporters. Those who know enough history to know what you’re talking about will get really, really pissed off. 🙂

  16. Just another case of the political right propaganda machine manipulating the pathetic little paranoids who think government is the root of all evil and store spam in their basements for the ultimate race war. No time for facts, law or sensibilities; not when there are shiny guns and cowboy hats all around. It is sad how easily the little puppets allow themselves to be duped. Besides, if this numbskull’s last name was Gutierrez or Rodriguez and he was claiming traditional family land ownership against the U.S. government, FAUX News would be condemning him as a criminal.

      • You mean the Native Americans…. Not sure they would like the idea of Harry Reid putting his solar farm there? I’m sure they would much rather see cattle murking about.

    • Just wait till you find out that they are….LOLOLOL I will be laughing all the way to the bank…Oh, maybe not because by then the dollar will be completely devaluated and we will be low man on the totem pole.

        • You want me to laugh at you right now. Fox News has nothing to do with it. Just like the TPer’s that you loathe. We dislike your total disregard for the Constitution and the Amendments. We hate your extreme socialist bordering on Communist agenda. Your extreme Left wing ideology. No, not a payed shill, just a very concerned Citizen.

  17. Not to mention the latest Big Conservative Blog Thing, claiming the federal government has no right to own land in Nevada at all, wouldn’t work even if it were true. Conservatives in Washington would fight it just as hard as liberals.

    Most of the federal land in Nevada belongs not to “environmentalists” but to the military – if I remember right, Nevada has more military acreage than any other state in the union. You kick the federal government out, you kick the military out too. And at that point, chances are even the most private property-minded conservative would fight you.

    • Every state has land that the government owns legitimately. In our state those lands provide much needed funding for education. What do you think would happen if there were no National Forests or National Parks. Could you still use them as freely as you do now? It’s a big thing to let them talk you into giving up those lands.

  18. Seems to me that most people commenting on this discussion are FOR BIG Federal Government authority……..There are much more important issues that the Federal Government needs to be concerned with….like the economy, debt, & stopping ILLEGAL trespassing that is hurting American families & a source of much costs to health care, education, crime & unemployment.

    • Hey, troll. How is life treating you?
      Maybe most of the folks here are not so pro big guvment (sic) as they are anti greedy, self-centered, entitled, horse’s “patoots.”
      Chances are very good that if it weren’t for the government taking care of you, yes you, generally and specifically in one form or another you wouldn’t a pot to tinkle in or a window to throw it out of.

      • Chances are if it weren’t for your illegal alien pilgrim grandads banging sheep and murdering all my ancsctors and stealing our land, you wouldn’t be here, so maybe you should just STFU unless you want to pay us the rent you owe and quit bitching about someone else paying it.

        • You must have a concept of ownership to maintain the idea someone owes you rent. If no one owns it then no one has a claim for rent and anyone has the right to use it. You have make a decision about which horse you are going to ride. Did you own this land or not?
          Who exactly is paying you rent? I know Congress offered to pay for the land but you rejected that offer? Holding out for a better deal?
          Who complained about anyone paying you rent?
          You have consistently attributed statements, positions and traits to me which I have never made, never taken and never displayed. You seem to be having a conversation with yourself and I just present you the opportunity to have it.
          Sort of like President Bush taking the opportunity presented by 9/11 to have a war with Saddam Hussein, someone who had nothing to do with the event.

          The English subjugated my ancestors 700-800 years ago or so. Used us as foot soldiers in their wars because of our skills with the longbow. Is it too late for me ask for reparations?

          • Yea, it’s pretty much too late for you to do sht about reparations, but since you’re on our land and your grandpas committed genocide, theft, murder, rape, and land theft and made treaties, those are internationally binding contracts so pay the F up. Karma’s a bitch! I specifically told you to read a History book before you bothered me with your latest random stream of uneducated mindless questions, so unless you have something more intelligent like “Why is the sky blue?” or ‘Do bears shit in the woods?” to ask, I’m gonna have to start charging for private tutoring. Help the Mentally Handicapped Week is over.

          • Dictionary. Rhetorical question. See definition.
            Actually, I am not on your land. My Grandpas and I arrived here too late to be involved and never got west of West Virginia until after all the murdering,raping, and thieving was over. Personally, neither I nor the rest of my family owe you anything. If you are going to make a common benefit, common obligation argument, which I might find favor with, then check your Republican credentials at the door.
            If you wish a redress of your grievances, petition the government – First Amendment.
            The sky isn’t blue, it appears to be blue. It is light scattering aka Rayleigh scattering.
            Bears crap where they want to, when they need to and sometimes maybe it is in the woods. They are bears after all.
            Again, maybe, you can’t answer the questions or maybe,the answers are just uncomfortable.

          • Sorry, but we’re not obligated to answer to your pointless derailing questions. I know that’s hard for someone with so much White Privilege to comprehend, but you’re not entitled to that. Blows your mind, huh? Nice try at denying your treaty obligations which, yes, you DO owe us since your government you swear allegiance to made those treaties and you’re living under those laws. We know your type likes to ignore that while talking out the other side of their mouths acting like other people like Bundy owe that same government that refuses to honor its treaties anything. But some of us have bullsht detectors so you’re not really getting too far, are you? Hard to believe for you, isn’t it, that you can’t sell your BS here? Keep up that fiction witing — we love the part where you got really creative and called us Republicans LMAO. Or maybe you just need to take those anti-hallucinatory meds you missed this morning! Sorry, but the rape and murder has never stopped since the day you illegal aliens stepped onshore, so yea, just keep paying off that bad karma and honor a treaty instead of whining about Bundy paying rent on that stolen land you’re on, hypocrite.

          • But hey, glad you’re finally seeing the Bundy’s side of things. I’ll call them up and tell them one more government programmed slave wants to grow some balls because they just realized you can’t charge rent on land you don’t own because you never paid for it, so they finally get why the Bundys don’t owe the US government shit.

          • Maybe you should ask Bundy for some rent. Let us know how that works out for you.
            I didn’t say no one has title to the land, that is your position. The U.S. Government has legal title to the land and it will have title until Congress passes a law, if it ever does, relinquishing title, for a price, to someone or something else.
            You may have a moral claim to compensation for the treatment of your people by citizens of this nation and its representatives and for the fact you may no longer use those lands as your ancestors once did, but you don’t have and never did have legal title to that land. Apparently, according to the courts you don’t any cognizable legal claim.
            I can complain that getting cancer is unfair, but it doesn’t make its consequences any less real.

          • Sorry, Racism Poster Child, but kinda like your bogus denial of the Palestinians’ claim to their homeland, you’re kind of in White Denial of our claims to our homelands and treaty rights which are internationally binding contracts as we are still sovereign nations and the US has a LEGAL responsibility to uphold them. Of course, you racist colonialist holocaust deniers aren’t real big on ethics and integrity, being lying thieves and it looks like your grandpas did a good job passing down that disregard for the law to you. We don’t really need to be collecting money from Bundy as he is abiding by the treaty which allowed him there. It’s the US government that you defend like a typical criminal with no respect for the law would, who owe that, so if you have a grievance against freeloaders who don’t pay their rent, it’s really kinda you who needs to be taking your little obsessive whinefest about not paying rent and criminals breaking laws up with your criminal illegitimate wasicu government.

          • You are pretty good at presuming, but very poor at reading (and comprehending).
            You might make a little headway if you could string thoughts together as well as you string slanders together.
            Do you really suppose that trying to insult me or any one else for that matter improves your position in any way.
            Your sentences, when they are at all coherent, are internally nonsensical and frequently contradictory.
            Your thinking is a muddled confabulation of inconsistent positions and ideologies. You don’t speak you rant and rave. All of this congeals over a festering mixture of hatred for “white” people (whatever they are – there is no such thing as a white race) and an undifferentiated victimology circling around a grievance more than 160 years old.
            If you can get this worked up over a grievance that old, your exes must be changing their names and moving overseas.

          • How does it feel knowing someone as Fd up as me can still outwit you and make you look like the dumbass you are consistently for 2 days because you can’t read a treaty? I guess that explains why you hate yourself and have no life to the point you are still here trying to desperately prove you ever had a thought, while I’m a professional writer and editor and wildly successful at what I do. I guess we can’t all be losers like you and lucky enough to feel a sense of accomplishment in obsessively harassing natives on white corporate sponsored meaningless comment threads. Some of us just have higher standards and have to get our accomplishments out there in the real world! Let us know when you get some!

          • It’s amazing how you sound just like the last 100 white supremacist asshole freeloader settlers who denied the validity of our sovereignty and treaty rights. Surprise surprise!

  19. Ironic, Bundy seems to believe that he is entitled to any damn thing he pleases while he attempts to circumvent the law. I’m sure he has no problem openly criticizing those on entitlement programs but refuses to see himself as being the same. He conveniently forgets that the government property he utilizes belongs to all of us. It is regulated for a reason, to make sure that ranchers don’t just end up destroying a precious resource. Poor little Bundy, you’re a confused man who is enjoying playing the victim but in the end you brought it on yourself with your ” to hell with the rules” actions.

  20. Cliven Bundy does not want to comply with the same laws that 16,000 public-lands ranchers do every year. “if I owe any grazing fees—I will sure pay it to the right landlord, and that will be to Clark County, Nevada.” It’s not about his cattle he contends. He says it’s about the Feds infringing on State’s rights. So Cliven…make the $million dollar check out to Clarke County Nevada. They will endorse it over to the Federal Government. Now you’re paid up. Start grazing.

    • Then you’ll be paying the rent on the stolen land you’re on to the natives tribes the federal government stole it from and never paid rent on, right? Otherwise you’d be kind of a hypocrite freeloader.

      • Your historical analysis is hysterical.
        Maybe you could name the native American tribe which owned the land Mr. Bundy has been grazing. He can make the check out to them. You should warn them not to buy anything until the check clears.
        I bet those white boys have no intention of ceding that land back to you if they get control.
        You would probably have better luck with the folks you keep crapping on in this blog.

        • No, actually your lack of historical analysis and education is hysterical. I’ve already identified the Shoshone as the nation whose land the US government has no jurisdiction on according to them, because they never paid for it per the terms of the Ruby Valley Treaty. What part of “stolen” don’t you understand, dipsht? Bundy was happy to make the check out to the state of Nevada, but the Shoshone would never have seen a Fin dime of it because the other settlers besides Bundy are freeloaders and thieves with no sense of honor kinda like you!

          • If there was a treaty it wasn’t stolen. I don’t know if they ever paid the 20 annual $5000.00 payments in cattle and so on called for in the Treaty, but the issues of ownership and who has title, etc. have been in the courts since at least 1951. The tribes keep losing. Congress has on several occasions offered to pay some reasonably substantial amounts of money to resolve the issues . The last offer I saw was $145 million for 25 million acres. ($5.80 per acre.) The tribes apparently refused to accept the offer.
            So, sounds like we have a contract/legal dispute and are dickering over price.

            Couple of asides. One, you have no idea about what I am or am not like.
            Secondly, I have experience in being insulted by experts, you will have to work harder to get under my skin. Please, however, feel free to keep on pitching.

            The Shoshone, a nomadic people, who no doubt, originally lay claim to these lands by force of arms, against other native american tribes. (By the by, did the Shoshone, ever compensate the Crow for the ponies they stole from them back in the day?) The concept of individual ownership or title to land is a development of western jurisprudence. Nations have always, of course, claimed title or ownership to the land they occupied or possessed. However, practically speaking they have only been able to assert that ownership against others when they have been able to to defend it by force or obtain recognition of a “right” to it by their neighbors or potential invaders.
            Crimea and Ukraine are currently examples of how well all of this works out.
            The history of the world involves countless wars, invasions, annexations, etc. and shifting tribal, clan, national and imperial claims to various territories, homelands and historic native lands. There have been birthright claims, cultural, ideological, racial and economic (at least) justifications for the variety of claims made by various folks to have control of any particular parcel of land. You can make this claim and have it entertained because of evolving standards of decency and what is right and wrong.
            My bet is you won’t get the land back. You might increase the amount of compensation offered, but you better hope you have a Democratic Congress and public opinion behind you. Maybe you should consider not calling your normal and natural allies names?

          • You’re an even bigger idot than I thought. Congratulations, those were hard expectations to beat. Your White privilege is showing. Here let me fix that for you. Treaty of Ruby Valley (1863)
            The Treaty of Ruby Valley was a treaty signed in 1863, giving certain rights to the United States in the Nevada Territory. As late as December 1992, Western Shoshone were still disputing the terms of this treaty with President-Elect Clinton.

            In the early 1860s some of the Western Shoshone people were conducting raids against settlers who were travelling along the Humboldt River and the Overland Trail. The Federal government established Fort Ruby to provide security for the settlers against the Indians, and started to negotiate treaties with the Shoshone and other peoples of the Great Basin. On 1 October 1863 Governor James W. Nye of Nevada Territory and Governor James Duane Doty of the Utah Territory signed the Treaty of Ruby Valley. Twelve chiefs signed for the “Western Bands of the Shoshonee Nation of Indians”.[1] All but one made a mark in place of a signature. The document was witnessed by J. B. Moore, lieutenant-colonel Third Infantry California Volunteers, Jacob T. Lockhart, Indian agent, Nevada Territory and Henry Butterfield, interpreter.[2]

            The signatories agreed to cease hostilities. They would allow free passage along the routes through Shoshone country, establishment of military posts and rest stations for travelers and for mail and telegraph companies, continued operation of telegraph and stage lines and construction of a railway from the plains to the Pacific ocean passing through their country. They would also allow prospecting for gold, silver or other minerals, mining of any deposits found, formation of mining and agricultural settlements and ranches, erection of mills and logging of timber. When the President of the United States should “deem it expedient for them to abandon the roaming life”, they agreed to become herdsmen or agriculturalists on reservations that would be assigned to them. In exchange, the Shoshone would receive twenty annual payments worth $5,000 each in the form of cattle and other goods.[2]

            The treaty did not state that the Shoshone were to surrender their lands. This omission was to create a huge amount of work for the Indian Claims Commission from the time it was established in 1946 until it was dissolved in 1978 and outstanding issues transferred to the courts.[1]

            The Western Shoshone have been engaged in legal battles with the federal government over rights to their land since the erroneous filing of a claim in 1951 for land presumed to have been taken. Most western states comprising the Great Basin were created by federal statutes that referenced that “no part of Indian country will be included into the boundaries or jurisdiction of any state or territory …without the consent of the Indians”. During the American Civil War 1861-1864, gold was needed from the west by the Union to prosecute the war against the south. The Doty treaties were entered into by the US with the Shoshone. In 1863 the Treaty of Ruby Valley was entered into with the Western Bands of the Shoshone Nation (18 Statute 689-692) and identified the boundaries of their 40,000 sq. mi. territory. The Western Shoshone did not consent to the inclusion of their property into the boundaries or jurisdiction of any state or territory. The Western Shoshone possess all the interests the United States sought to purchase by the treaty for $5,000 per year for 20 years. The treaty was also used by the Union to demonstrate to European governments and banks backing the Union that it could do what it said and provide the gold needed for the war. “the treaty is in full force and effect”[1] The United States failed to make any, but the first payment. In an effort to close a 1951 Indian Claims Commission 326-k case, the Western Shoshone Claims Distribution Act of 2004 established by the United States to give the perception that the Indians have been served justice, made payment of $160 million to the Great Basin tribe for the perceived acquisition of 39,000 square miles (100,000 km2). The 326-k claim was $1.05 per acre for 26,000 million acres but did not in fact constitute a transfer of rights, title and interest since the Treaty of Ruby Valley is controlling. These facts are the basis for the failure of the United States Department of Energy to prove ownership to the proposed Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository and the withdrawal of the license application. In 1979 Congress appropriated $26 million to settle the land claims, but the tribes said they wanted the US to abide by the 1863 treaty and stop trespassing on their lands. In 1985 the US Supreme Court ruled in the US v. Dann that the appropriation of funds by Congress and the acceptance by the Secretary of the Interior constitutes “payment” and effects Section 70 U of the ICC Act and forever bars further claims and Western Shoshone title is ‘presumed to be extinguished’, but the tribes have left the money with the government. As recently as 2004, Congress has attempted to force the purchase of Western Shoshone land but this has been opposed by the majority of tribal leaders. Disputes over tribal land and the international recognition by the United Nations[2] of their struggle against the United States government is documented in the 2008 film American Outrage.Western Shoshone have demonstrated related to a number of issues as they try to protect their property; they have called for an end to nuclear testing within their country as well as filing injunctions against gold mining that would result in dewatering of Mount Tenabo, Nevada.The only option, the first and primary role of a sovereign nation of people is for the Western Shoshone to assert full sovereign immunity against the US demonstrating that the US does not have jurisdiction upon them within their territory.

            UNITED STATES TREATY WITH THE WESTERN SHOSHONI, 1863

            October 1, 1863, 18 Statutes at Large 689

            Treaty of Peace and Friendship made at Ruby Valley, in the Territory of Nevada, this first day of October, A.D. one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, between the United States of America, represented by the undersigned commissioners, and the Western Bands of the Shoshonee Nation of Indians, represented by their Chiefs and Principal Men and warriors, as follows:

            ARTICLE 1

            Peace and friendship shall be hereafter established and maintained between the Western Bands of the Shoshonee nation and the people and government of the United States; and the said bands stipulate and agree that hostilities and all depredations upon the emigrant trains,the mail and telegraph lines, and upon the citizens of the United States within their country, shall cease.

            ARTICLE 2

            The several routes of travel through the Shoshonee country, now or hereafter used by white men, shall be forever free, and unobstructed by the said bands, for the use of the government of the United States, and of all emigrants and travellers under its authority and protection,without molestation or injury from them. And if depredations are at any time committed by bad men of their nation, the offenders shall be immediately taken and delivered up to the proper officers of the United States, to be punished as their offences shall deserve; and the safety of all travellers passing peaceably over either of said routes is hereby guarantied by said bands.

            Military posts may be established by the President of the United states along said routes or elsewhere in their country; and station houses may be erected and occupied at such points as may be necessary for the comfort and convenience of travellers or for mail or telegraph companies.

            ARTICLE 3

            The telegraph and overland stage lines having been established and operated by companies under the authority of the United States through a part of the Shoshonee country, it is expressly agreed that the same may be continued without hindrance, molestation, or injury from the people of said bands, and that their property and the lives and property of passengers in the stages and of the employes of the respective companies, shall be protected by them. And further, it being understood that provision has been made by the government of the United States for the construction of a railway from the plains west to the Pacific ocean, it is stipulated by the said bands that the said railway or its branches may be located, constructed, and operated, and without molestation from them, through any portion of country claimed or occupied by them.

            ARTICLE 4

            It is further agreed by the parties hereto, that the shoshonee country may be explored and prospected for gold and silver, or other minerals; and when mines are discovered, they may be worked, and mining and agricultural settlements formed, and ranches established whenever they may be required. Mills may be erected and timber taken for their use, as also for building and other purposes in any part of the country claimed by said bands.

            ARTICLE 5

            It is understood that the boundaries of the country claimed and occupied by said bands are defined and described by them as follows:

            On the north by Wong-goga-da Mountains and Shoshonee River Valley;on the west by Su-non-to-yah Mountains or Smith Creek Mountains; on the south by Wi-co-bah and the Colorado Desert; on the east by Po-ho-no-be Valley or Steptoe Valley and Great Salt Lake Valley.

            ARTICLE 6

            The said bands agree that whenever the President of the United states shall deem it expedient for them to abandon the roaming life,which, they now lead, and become herdsmen or agriculturalists, he is hereby authorized to make such reservations for their use as he may deem necessary within the country above described; and they do also hereby agree to remove their camps to such reservations as he may indicate, and to reside and remain therein.

            ARTICLE 7

            The United States, being aware of the inconvenience resulting to the Indians in consequence of the driving away and destruction of game along the routes travelled by white men, and by the formation of agricultural and mining settlements, are willing to fairly compensate them for the same; therefore, and in consideration of the preceding stipulations, and of their faithful observance by the said bands, the United States promise and agree to pay to the said bands of the Shoshonee nation parties hereto, annually for the term of twenty years,the sum of five thousand dollars in such articles, including cattle for herding or other purposes, as the President of the United States shall deem suitable for their wants and condition, either as hunters or herdsmen. And the said bands hereby acknowledge the reception of the said stipulated annuities as a full compensation and equivalent for the loss of game and the rights and privileges hereby conceded.

            ARTICLE 8

            The said bands hereby acknowledge that they have received from said commissioners provisions and clothing amounting to five thousand dollars as presents at the conclusion of this treaty.

            Done at Ruby Valley the day and year above written.

            James W. Nye
            James Duane Doty
            Te-moak, his x mark
            Mo-ho-a
            Kirk-weedgwa, his x mark
            To-nag, his x mark
            To-so-wee-so-op, his x mark
            Sow-er-e-gah, his x mark
            Po-on-go-sah, his x mark
            Par-a-woat-ze, his x mark
            Ga-ha-dier, his x mark
            Ko-ro-kout-ze, his x mark
            Pon-ge-mah, his x mark
            Buck, his x mark
            Witnesses:

            J. B. Moore, lieutenant-colonel Third Infantry California Volunteers
            Jacob T. Lockhart, Indian agent Nevada Territory
            Henry Butterfield, interpreter
            Ratified June 26, 1866
            Proclaimed Oct. 21, 1869

            Go to Western Shoshone Territorial Integrity Litigation

          • I read this article also. Surely you have some point to make beyond insulting me. I did not say anything in conflict with the article,

          • Yay, you made a word. Now stop right there. Don’t add any more so you don’t fck up and look like an idiot again.

          • Thanks! I was taught in Fashion Design school to style my insults so they match the personality of the people I’m using them on. Glad to know I was successful!

          • Thanks! I learned in Fashion Design school to tailor my insults to fit the personality of the person I’m making them for. Glad to know I was a success!

          • I have to do that with deaf people and the Mentally Challenged.Sorry but they require it on these Help the Culturally Handicapped community service hours I have to do for burning down some wagons.

          • This was the best comedy bit though of the day, thanks for the laughs. “The Shoshone, a nomadic people, who no doubt, originally lay claim to these lands by force of arms, against other native american tribes. (By the by, did the Shoshone, ever compensate the Crow for the ponies they stole from them back in the day?) ”

            ROTF wow, you sound like an expert on Turtle Island history. Maybe you should try watching something besides Dances With Wolves. In the meantime, seriously, try adjusting the world so it doesn’t revolve around your F’d up Euro mythology about us and your Fd up Euro assumption that just because you are violent genocidal thieves that means we are or that your barbaric concepts apply to our history because they don’t.

          • Nope, not an expert, nor do I claim to be. I do read, write and understand my native tongue. Learning isn’t difficult or a problem for me. I don’t suspect that I have any inherent superiority to anyone else.
            I don’t find it a satisfactory disposition of an argument to refer to others thinking as mythology. Maybe psychologically soothing but of little value beyond that. Keep up the good work you are winning friends and influencing folks by the tens.

          • Thanks! Maybe that’s why we make the biggest selling native t shirt of all time worn by about every celebrity with a clue and native in the country and have a great following of amazing friends and a life, unlike people who have nothing to do but sit on their asses and just talk about sht they don’t knpw anything about, like the Bundys and our native culture and history! If learning isn’t a problem for you, why can’t you understand what “treaty,” “indigenous,” “paid for,” and “stolen” means? It’s called a dictionary, get a library card!

          • At what point after your migration from Asia did you become indigenous?
            Did you displace the natives who lived here before you established control over the land?
            No one else lay claim to these lands prior to the Shoshone?
            Did you eliminate potential future conflicts by killing them all?
            A thousand years from now, if anyone still lives on this planet, will the “indigenous” people be whatever people live in that area?
            Since all human life originated in Africa maybe they are the only truly indigenous people? Maybe everything belongs to them? But wait doesn’t that make all of us Africans?

          • How many stupid questions do you want me to answer, because you’re up to about 20 today and maybe if you just get the f off here and read something besides the Aryan Nation website those questions will be answered.

          • The questions, a bit tongue in cheek, are designed to make one think. A lost art for many folks.
            Just how far back in parsing blame, grievance, virtue, responsibility, ownership, and the need for compensation are we prepared to go?
            Isn’t any point we pick a bit arbitrary?
            After all, we are in fact all Africans!

          • Does that mean I can go back to Africa and run my cattle on their land? You are correct about the origin of the species. We did all originate in Africa.

          • I don’t know but there may be a serious problem trying to determine whose ancestors have the greater right of possession. (smile)

          • We don’t really need to explain our indigenous-ness to settlers who can’t wrap their brains around reality and are just looking for some excuse to whitewash the guilt away and rationalize their false claims to our lands, now do we? We never “controlled” the land. That’s kind of a Euro rapist Christian domination mentality thing. Get help with that. Maybe if you just smoke more weed than you smoked to let your mind vacate to the point you had nothing else to do but stretch it to as irrational as you could get to contrive some imaginary point, you can get answers to those soul-searching questions. Rational people pretty much get it that genocide = NOT COOL and indigenous means we’ve lived here for so long before douches like you got here that kinda makes this our home. Kinda like when you own a home and someone walks in and murders everyone and steals it. Not real hard for people without mental issues and deep-seated racist denial to fathom, but hey, we run into the willfully ignorant online all the time. Nice to meet you.

          • Disagreeing with you doesn’t make me a racist, or pro genocide, or a Christian or a rapist or mentally ill. Do you call everyone names who disagrees with you?
            You have pretty much thrown slogans at me and insulted me. You have yet to make address a single statement I have made or issue I have raised.

          • No, I don’t call everyone that, just the ones who deserve it and fit the FBI profile! I hope you like my slogans, here’s another one: Sure You Can Trust the Government, Just Ask an Indian! If you want a T shirt they’re usually $20 bucks but for you it’s $30 just for being a douche! I’ll throw the History lesson in free! Let me know when you make a coherent relevant statement so I can address it, and not just stupid questions you could get answered by reading something!

          • FBI is okay if you wish to make a point using their “wisdom,” otherwise Government bad.
            I will happily let you teach me some history – no charge.
            Maybe the answers to my questions are obvious and you avoid answering them because you don’t like the answers or the implications of the answers. Given your vast knowledge of history and your certainty about the origins and rightness of various territorial claims, you should solve the problem the Palestinians and Israelis have deciding who has the rightful claim to the “Holy Land.” No mountain for a climber.

          • Or maybe we don’t answer your questions because we’re not licensed to treat the Mentally Ill. But thanks for reminding everyone about the illegal occupation of Palestinian homelands by terrorists, kinda like you’re illegally occupying ours bitching about someone paying rent on land the US government doesn’t own either.

          • Even the Koran and Mohammed accept by inference and context the historic accuracy of the Jews living in and occupying the “Holy Land” first(?). Then along came some Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites, and various others. The Romans, the Byzantine Empire, Muslims (Arabs, Kurds, etc.) Crusaders, Turks, The British and the Jews again. Everyone butchering everyone else at different times. You need more than a scorecard to keep it all straight.
            Good to know you have it all squared away as to who the good guys and the bad guys are.

          • You’re not really keen on reading, are you? You have a career as a fiction writer ahead of you. Ummmm….in your fantasies it’s not Palestinian homeland but in real life, it is. Hmmmm maybe that’s why they’re fighting over it, because everyone agrees the Jews aren’t invaders. Um…not. Just not bright, it’s so sad. Some of us don’t need a scorecard to figure out who the bad guy is since the only place we have a tradition of “butchering” each other is your racist Wild West tall tales too.

          • But you best line of BS was this: “If there was a treaty it wasn’t stolen.” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What part of “stolen” don’t you understand? Loser.

          • You have established beyond a doubt knowledge of the location and function of the shift key.

          • See, I told you not to type more than one word at once. You’re not big enough to handle 3! It just looks stupid on you!

  21. You’re pretty much full of cowsht. You don’t know any of these people, you’re not there like we have been, and you’re shilling obviously for whatever corporate programmed government slavemeister is paying your bills.But the best part is how you’re all so worked up over someone who offered to pay the local government the fees allegedly “freeloading” and “breaking the law” but I notice none of you have paid a freaking dime to the native tribes whose land you illegal alien pilgrim freeloaders are squatting on. The Shoshone Dann sisters have dealt with the same kind of terrorism for decades at the hands of the feds being
    terrorized for so-called “trespassing” on their own land. You conveniently just forgot about the Treaty of Ruby Valley which the Shoshone dispute today as they fight to get the government to stop poisoning their land with nuclear testing. They agree with the Bundys that the US has NO JURISDICTION on
    their stolen land because they never paid their rent on it and do not own it. What a sense of white privilege and entitlement you enjoy being in denial of treaty law because it’s convenient. If you want to start bitching about people not obeying laws, why don’t you start with demanding that the US honor its own laws and obligations and get the F off our land they and you never paid for? We all know why. You suffer from the same disease as the rest – selective memory and enforcement. Government officials are already coming out accusing the Obama administration and BLM of acting illegally. Meanwhile you sit on stolen land and reap the benefits you never paid for and call other people names who you never met. You’re not even worthy to be called our countrymen so I hope you swim back home while we’re defending the rights you have no respect for.

    • One minor little contrary detail to your dissertation.

      The Native Americans, or Indians if you prefer that designation, also never owned the land they occupied. They lived in a society that used the land freely and equally among all and never staked out any claim to owning any natural resource. I think that individual ownership, class ownership, family ownership, tribe ownership or state ownership was an unknown concept to them and it never entered into their minds that such an arrangement was desirable let alone possible.

      • One MAJOR little contrary detail to your limp Hallmark card: You’re not native and you don’t really know sht about sovereign tribal law and in typical colonialist fashion, you’re standing on the land you stole from us “correcting” us presuming to know more about us than we do. LMNAO. Sorry you never had to read anything longer than the bathroom wall and maybe the credits to the John Wayne movie where you get your ideas about native tribes LMAO, but we had AND STILL HAVE IN EFFECT extensive complicated governments and territorial contracts and inter-tribal arrangements regarding land and who lived where which you can’t wrap your head around because you are programmed into a Euro Manifest Destiny mindset that only allows you to think in the stereotypical proprietary false misguided notions you have. You have no concept whatsoever of our history so until you do, puh lease stop trying to be an authority as you will just make yourself look like more of an idiot if that’s possible.And treaties are LAWS that we have always honored which you somehow can’t figure out how to.

        • And where were the deeds to the land stored and where were the printing presses on which those deeds were printed?

          Anthropologists believe that the first Indian tribes came to the Western Hemisphere during the last ice age by crossing an ice-covered Bering Strait from Siberia. If so, from whom did those immigrants from Russia buy this continent?

          If it wasn’t purchased, it was stolen from someone else. Right?

          • I’m doing a research paper on total idiots. Can I take your picture? I love how Eurocentruc invaders assume nothing happened before they got here LMAO and we are supposed to all do things according to their archaic irrelevant feudal system and ignore oral tradition and anything that shows we were here way before the “land bridge” THEORY because they can pretend we are mere “immigrants” like them as if that lessens our rightful lawful claims to our ancestral land HAHAHA fail. Kind of convenient to destroy all the records and remains like they did the Aztecs and then lie and make up whatever they want to suit their genicidal land-stealing agenda. Give it up, you’re just failing miserably. Typical colonialist entitlement complex conveniently disregarding treaties because you don’t have the integrity to honor them. Our word is good but your papers are nothing.

          • I supposer you will be the main entry and featured idiot in your paper.

            You are using the same “logic”as the Europeans when they got to the Western Hemisphere and found a system lacking in documentation of private-property ownership, as they understood it in Europe, so they claimed the land for Great Britain, France or Spain. But pointing that out to you makes you turn insulting, nasty and downright unpleasant.

            Then you turn around and accept the same as it applied to the first Native American tribes, such as Clovis Man, when they came to this part of the world from Siberia and found no one with a documented system of private-property ownership so claimed the territory as their own. This double standard is unacceptable.

            I have always sided with the Indians; argument, but you make it hard to remain on their side.

            Incidentally, will you include my 175 IQ in the Bios?

          • Let me translate that latest load of cowsht into Shoshone so the natives can understand:you: “Blah blah BS blah blah more white man’s BS blah blah I don’t like strong native women cuz I have a little dick blah blah I don’t know sht about the history of Turtle Island except that the pilgrims fed the Indians and Dances With Wolves made me want to dress up like one blah blah.” I think you’ve made my point. Thanks!

          • Wow,does that 175 IQ stand for Idiot Quarreling? ‘Cause that’s the most credible thing you’ve said! Or was that your score on your Doctorate of Derailing final exam? At least we know you’ve mastered one skill! Thanks for including Derailing Tactic #9! That’s one of our favorites in native writer and activist circles – “You make Your People look bad/Lone Ranger good friend to Tonto, but you Bad Tonto so all Tontos pay price for bad Tonto.” I’m gonna have to dock you 30 points for lack of originality, though, because that derailing tactic was used by the last 300 wasicu twink wannabe Patronizing Saint to Indians before you, loser!

          • But the best part of your Wasicu Wannabe Indian Experts Fictional Writing submission above was the part where you traveled back in time and personally interviewed “Clovis Man” LMAO and that made you yet another self-proclaimed “expert” on our people and what they were thinking while taking a dump on the prairie and everything they did like your other Eurocentric pals. Gotta love invaders with no Manifest Destiny agenda or anything who think everyone else’s culture should revolve around their irrelevant concepts of what sovereignty and territory and ancestral land is. Guess they forgot to tell you all about the extensive governmental and territorial systems we’ve always had. Maybe you should read Adair or DeLoria, Jr or maybe even American Holocaust or fck even watch a National Geographic special, that would be a baby step so you can learn something ’cause you’re not paying me to be your private tutor and the patient has to WANT to change so your therapy isn’t going real well.

          • And maybe you should read Marx and Engels to see that they admired the American Indians, especially the Plains Indians, and wanted to build their “paradise” around the social structure of those Indianss

          • Or maybe we should read something by white people outsiders writing about us through their distorted Eurocentric limited lens we haven’t already read. Or maybe you should read something besides “Annie Oakley” so you have less time to just wank off here making random masturbatory delusional speculations about people you don’t know. Or maybe you should read the Wild West tall tale stories Hitler read that he said influenced his mythology about us, and influenced him to model his concentration camps around the reservation system and treatment of our people. Or maybe you should get an education like we have beyond biased articles on the Internet. Or maybe you should just F off. I pick Door Number 5 personally.

          • I “supposer” you will be the main idiot and entry, actually. Can I quote you? Thanks for the comedy fodder. At least sht is good for making fertilizer.

      • And the award for Stupidest Question of the Day goes to…^^^
        Are you Shoshone or native? If you’re not, pay the rent on the land you own like Bundy offered to pay the state of Nevada, who will never pay the Shoshone. Kind of a vicious cycle of stealing land, huh? Of course if the state of Nevada would take the money Bundy offered and actually pay the Shoshone, maybe you settlers would finally have done one thing right instead of just standing around bitching at each other for not paying rent on land you don’t own! HEYYYAA

        • Rhetorical questions are always stupid, that’s the point.

          So, let me get this straight, because I haven’t heard this in the news —

          Bundy isn’t Shoshone (obviously), but he refused to pay the government because he offered instead to pay the Shoshone directly?

          Because if the answer is no, why the heck are you defending him, even indirectly? He’s not only representative of a culture and government that has dishonored itself in its relations with the American aborigines, he’s a direct echo of the kind of slags that attacked Sand Creek.

          • LMAO it’s so amusing watching the settlers never fail to try to bullsht their way around their distractionary misspeak to avoid dealing with reality. they are fully aware of just to play mind games. If you haven’t heard it in the news, then WTF are you doing here, since this is kinda ummmmm news since it’s an article about ummmm….news. Kinda hard for me to buy that one, try again. Pretty obvious you’re just stirring sht for the sake of stirring sht. I like how you’re in denial of what I said and try to say things like, “refused to pay the government” as if that has any basis in fact, when I just stated specifically he offered to pay the government of NEVADA. The government are the ones who are responsible for paying the Shoshone, so instead of wasting both our time asking why I’m supporting them when I’ve already stated exactly why, why don’t you write your own government and ask them why they haven’t paid the Shoshone and why they are illegally trying to force people off land when they have no jurisdiction to do so? He’s not representative of anything but himself. Why don’t you come back when you’ve “heard about it” and read all the background info the Bundy Ranch and Support Cliven Bundy and Homeland Security Fighting Terrorism Since 1492 pages and all the other media outlets have been posting for your educational assistance? Or you could just keep pointlessly trying to debate with me when you obviously don’t have much of a clue. Go do some research and get back to me. Oh and we’re not “aborigines.” Seriously, I can’t pass History for you. At some point you are gonna have to open a book.

          • I -have- heard that he offered to pay the Nevada government. You weren’t clear that that’s what you meant. Avoid splitting your clauses in your rambling BS. Basic syntactic advice.

            It’s kind of cute that you think Nevada would be more forthcoming than the US government towards the old treaties and payments owed. It’s kind of cute that you’re pretending to be pro-native while supporting a moronic hack like Bundy. Kind of. Mostly it’s tragic and asinine.

            How about YOU come back when you’re not transparently opportunist trying to pretend to be principled.

          • It’s kind of cute that you think treaty rights are “cute” and it’s more kind of cute that you claim you never heard about this in the news but you have unlimited time to waste just harassing natives who actually work 24/7 in our communities calling us “opportunistic” and “pretending” to be pro-native when you don’t even know who we are while you’re just rambling on about meaningless BS instead of actually educating yourself so you don’t have to ask who the Shoshone are and are not. And it’s even more kinda cute that you presume to tell a newspaper editor how to “split clauses” to make sure you can follow a train of thought since you’re kind of just here to obviously twist the language to BS your way around it. Here’s something even cuter that you may want to go see instead of wasting your tragic pasty life rambling about treaty rights you don’t know anything about. This is how we “pretend” to be pro-native all day long in our ACTUAL tribal life as opposed to your make-believe questions and fake concern about Sand Creek, wasicu loser
            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Homeland-Security-Fighting-Terrorism-Since-1492/120555944681864

          • I didn’t say I didn’t hear about this in the news. Boy oh boy, you’re barely literate as well…

            But you’re an “editor”. Bwahahaha!

            What I said was that I hadn’t heard anything about Bundy giving two craps about the Shoshone in the news. Because it’s not there.

            Yeah, my “fake concern” about Sand Creek. Whatever. I could care less if you’re claiming to be native. I could care less if you really are native. I know this much. I know real natives, and none of them feel the way you do about the Bundy situation. They agree with you about honoring the treaties and making the right reparations, and I agree with that, too. But Bundy has NOTHING to do with that and you pretending it does is an INSULT.

          • You’re an idiot. Get something else to do like we do all day as REAL natives, sorry but we don’t need to CLAIM to be anything, it’s called DNA and tribal heritage you must be jealous of since you’re just another freeloading settler. Maybe try reading the article we’ll be publishing in the Las Vegas Tribune as a firsthand account of what’s going down there,or all the other ones and writing we have been doing on behalf of our tribal communities for all those decades you’ve been sitting there asking “Is Bundy Shoshone/” LMAO Or maybe you could go to Red Bear Positano’s page or maybe Greg Redhorse’s page or David Rockman’s page or all the other natives on my page and the Homeland Security Fighting Terrorism Since 1492 page and my page who also agree with us and support the Bundys. Not just your one Genorokee token hangs around the fort white Indian friend. LMAO, you’re an idiot.

  22. He cites a severe violation of U.S. Code — 43 U.S.C. Section 1733, Subsection C
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    Avatar of B. Christopher Agee B. CHRISTOPHER AGEE — APRIL 18, 2014
    Photo Credit: Facebook/Congressman Steve Stockman
    After the federal Bureau of Land Management agents backed down from their intimidating stance at the Bundy Ranch last weekend, ample evidence has surfaced indicating the standoff between the government and the Nevada ranching family is far from over. Throughout the weeklong stalemate, members of the Bundy family were physically assaulted by armed officers, numerous cows were shot dead, and protesters faced threats of gunfire for merely expressing their outrage.

    Immediately after what many considered a victory against a tyrannical federal agency, a number of leftist voices – most notably, Sen. Harry Reid – indicated the action against this family will continue.

    In response, Texas Republican Rep. Steve Stockman sent a letter to Barack Obama, Department of the Interior Sec. Sally Jewell, and BLM Director Neil Kornze, laying out his position that any such action by the agency would violate the U.S. Constitution.

    “Because of this standoff,” he wrote, “I have looked into BLM’s authority to conduct such paramilitary raids against American citizens, and it appears that BLM is acting in a lawless manner in Nevada.”

    He cited the limited powers granted to the federal government, noting the bureau has no “right to assume preemptory police powers, that role being reserved to the States,” and explained “many federal laws require the federal government to seek assistance from local law enforcement whenever the use of force may become necessary.”

    The letter included a section of the U.S. Code — 43 U.S.C. Section 1733, Subsection C — stating exactly that point. [Emphasis Stockman’s]

    “When the Secretary determines that assistance is necessary in enforcing Federal laws and regulations relating to the public lands or their resources he shall offer a contract to appropriate local officials having law enforcement authority within their respective jurisdictions with the view of achieving maximum feasible reliance upon local law enforcement officials in enforcing such laws and regulations.”
    In the case of the Bundy Ranch, he continued, “the relevant local law enforcement officials appear to be the Sheriff of Clark County, Nevada, Douglas C. Gillespie.”

    Gillespie, however, conspicuously took a back seat to BLM forces during the standoff.

    “Indeed,” Stockman wrote, “the exact type of crisis that the federal government has provoked at the Bundy ranch is the very type of incident that Congress knew could be avoided by relying on local law enforcement officials.”

    The stated purpose of the correspondence is for the Obama administration “to bring the BLM into compliance with 43 U.S.C. section 1733.”

    Absent a full investigation into the agency’s actions, he concluded, “the federal government must not only stand down, but remove all federal personnel from anywhere near the Bundy ranch.”

    Legislators and law enforcement personnel have stood alongside state militia members and the Bundy family in opposing the excessive force employed by the BLM. Stockman’s letter adds even more weight to the growing sentiment against the federal overreach.

    The full letter from Congressman Stockman follows:

    Read more at http://www.westernjournalism.com/congressman-pens…/…
    Just In: Obama Accused By Congressman Of Illegal Action At Bundy Ranchwww.westernjournalism.com
    He cites a severe violation of U.S. Code — 43 U.S.C. Section 1733, Subsection C

  23. People who grow up resenting authority possibly are born with criminal tendencies. Maybe not all of them become criminal, so you’d notice, the the potential is there. That goes for those making heroes out of criminals. They have the tendency or they wouldn’t champion it. Look at all the movies that painted a cold blooded killer to be a hero – Jesse James. They tried to make a hero out of the guy who shot two game wardens, in cold blood, in Nevada. Years ago, I found a package of cigarettes in my 15-year-old son’s pants pocket. I asked him where he got them and he told me that a local arcade kid hangout. The guy, who owned it, sold kids cigarettes all the time. I called him and told him I was going to turn him into the police if he ever sold kids cigarettes again. He sputtered, “I’m a law abiding citizen, just the other day I called the police on some kids that were trying to get money out of one of my machines.” Jesse James, Al Capone, the arcade owner, the barefoot bandit, and Bundy are all criminals and anyone who supports them probably has criminal tendencies.

    • People who grow up getting Fd in the ass and not questioning so-called “authority” are born with brain damage. They’re pretty much programmed slaves so about all they’re good for is to make Doucheburgers out of when all the free range cattle are gone.

      • You are a pretty sophisticated person, aren’t you? Does your vernacular tell me that you graduated from Princeton summa cum laude? I used to work with people doing service work when they got out of jail. Most of them hated authority and specially hated police.

        • So that douchey over-white-privileged obsessive whiner wasting Daddy’s money made from exploiting the slave labor of others musta been you I kicked in the balls last time too! I thought I recognized yours because they were exceptionally small! You may want to get a refund and tell them the Princeton Wizard failed at giving you a brain, since you can’t even match wits with a scholarship recipient whose dad had to work for a living!

  24. Mr. Lyons sounds in his prose like a bad imitation of Edward G. Robinson as cowboy wanna be…”see”.

    Lyons waxes eloquent as the cowboy philosopher about his prize cow and how he worries about her so, yet, then professes that this years calf was delivered without his witness…shame for such a fine rancher who cares so much…but wait, seems this has happened before as well.

    Speaking of fraud Mr. Lyons, just how big is that ‘spread”; 50 acres or so? I feel sure that you are more Country Squire that cow puncher. So what is the point, just this, the Left determined to demonize this guy Bundy as a “scoff law”, liar first class, and nere do well because he dares to defy the Bureau of Land Management thugs (an independent agency) and resist an armed assault against his cattle and his family, because of what…..Grazing fees that are in dispute. Twenty years in dispute by some accounts.

    The Left is a selective enforcer of law. Just ask Mr. Holder about immigration, marijuana, spying and a long list of other statute that he and the President choose to ignore or nullify. If we argue that illegals should be allowed to stay here because they have been here for years and are now “defacto” citizens, why not just give ol’ Bundy the Ok to keep on grazin them cows Mr. Lyons, because isn’t it really about what is right and just, Or are we only concerned for the rights of non citizens, as if they have any to begin with.

    • Not much of a reader are you? As a thinker? Maybe your condition is treatable.

      If you had read, you would have known that Lyons is more of a hobby farmer. In fact, that is what he said.

      I bet 50 acres is about 200 times the size of your spread. And your rant about illegals is just an off-topic troll rant. You did not even come to discuss, just to show boat a bunch of mouth.

      Bundy is a liar, a thief, and a treasonous scumbag. They are willing to hide behind their women, hoping they will get bigger headlines. Geez, any real man would be hiding them.

      And Bundy lied about his family owning that land all that time. His family bought it in ’48. That’s 1948.

      He says he does not recognize the government, he holds a gun threateningly, he won’t pay his bills. He has made millions off of using land that belongs to ALL of us. In any other nation in the world, they all would be dead right now. The man is a traitor, and you love him for it.

      As far as the Land Management thugs, whose doing all the threatening, Bundy. Bundy has a sweet heart deal. The Feds only charge about 15% of the fees the state of Nevada charges. He is getting it all and paying almost nothing, so he decides to pay nothing. Wow, he is some kind of citizen. Oh, that’s right, he is not an American at all. When you talk about Bundy and illegals, are you, like Bundy, a citizen too?

      • Yeah Mike, you are so slow a thinker and typist that I am going on to bed. Go ahead and tell some more whoppers. If this country is going to survive, we are going to have to dump all your lying, treasonous butts in the middle of the ocean. Maybe, we will wake up before it is too late.

        I think the cure for Bundy is a good bit of napalm. We can have some “roast beef” while we clean up the mess.

        • It’s called thought Russ…you should try some. Course at your age, gettin past 7:00 PM might be tough.

          All the best.

          • Well MIke, I have no fear that I can out do you in nearly every category even with my age and health. I saw the “someone is typing message,” thought about it, posted a message as long as yours, went and got a soda, and you still weren’t done. And I could claim ESP as well, because I just knew it had to be you.

            As far as thinking, I will stick with my original post. I am proud to be an American, unlike Bundy and his treasonous rowdies and you, Mike.

            Mike, seriously. No matter how bad one thinks his country is, you stick with it, defend it, through thick and thin. If it has troubles, you work to resolve those, and you do it peacefully. Hate and discontent are what you use on your nation’s enemies. This last bit is just my humble advice and is not meant to offend you any more than you intend to BE offended. Good night.

      • Read below there Russ. Seems that I am correct and you…well you know that as a Liberal, big government guy, being indignant about someone that defies the Federal leviathan, just comes natural.

        Rep Steve Stockman of Texas, below, has put the Administration on record and speaks for Liberty and Constitution lovers everywhere.

        P.S. I respected Daniel Patrick Moynihan for this quote ” you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts”.

        • Yeah, and that is the key to stopping all the immigration that these thugs are always carping about. Prosecute the employers to the fullest extent of the law for every illegal they hire. No business man, rancher, etc. would ever hire another one. Illegals may continue to come, but I would think most of the incentive would be gone.

          The Teatards and corrupt businesses want to treat hard working immigrants like filth and just dump them back into a miasma of misery. So “christian” of them now that they have squeezed every nickel out of them, the taxpayers, and the poor. Now that these people have settled and have a very real stake in this nation, the right-wackos just want to deport them.

          What the Teathugs cannot fathom is the rich that they worship, are the ones that are really killing them. Hate and racism, or is it just racial hate, get evil people to make some really bad choices.

    • That of course would fit the description of most “occupy’ types like yourself there Erik. When in doubt, always throw in racist for good measure.

      Of course there are types of “dole” that are perfectly acceptable to you I would surmise…….ahhh, so much redistribution to do and so little time.

        • Good post Erik, but Mike is another of the racist sons of biscuit eaters that always has an excuse as to why his racism is your fault. And mine too.

          • Don’t be a Pu–y Rus, just say it, you are a unapologetic statist that never saw an out of control bloated, overbearing, Liberty stealing bureaucrat you didn’t like.

            Using racist for those that may disagree with this Administration just makes you feel better about yourself, just like when you cast your ballot for the President…

          • Mike, still the racist I see. Regardless of how much hatred you all have, it is that black man in the White House that has sent you over the edge. Any other explanation is just an excuse.

            I am a FREE MAN, and though I do not agree with everything in this nation, there is nothing wrong with this country that would ever make me want to harm or betray it like you, Bundy, and company.

            And lastly, WHAT freedoms have you had taken away. Your paranoia . . . well, I wish they could, but you still have that. Your precious arsenal . . . you shouldn’t have any guns, but I know that you still have them. Is it your right to bully, and hate, and deny rights to gays, women, and minorities. Don’t just talk crazy about imaginary boogie men, make a real factual case about what freedom you have lost. Think of all the life you have squandered being in a stew of hatred. All that is ever going to do is get you killed doing something stupid, or you will prematurely stroke out. Regardless, of what I say to you sometimes because you are so rotten, the truth is those things are not what I wish for you.

          • I believe in the Constitution. I believe in the concept of our way of government. I find it disturbing that there are so many anti-government criminals, out there. History has seen this happen before and when the stupid were organized into thugs to help destroy the country’s democracy, the thugs became no longer needed and they were disbanded, sent to the front lines and jailed. If there are problems in the government, we fix them.

          • You might have already read this, but:

            [Cliven Bundy, to “Home on the Range”]

            Oh give me a home,
            Where mah’ cattle can roam.
            Fer free, while others must pay.
            Where now all that’s heard,
            Are encouraging words–
            For militias arriving today.

            Home, home on the range,
            Where FoxNews and Hannity play.
            Where the right-wing is heard,
            And the gun nuts are stirred,
            Getting crazier each broadcast day.

            Now thanks to the right,
            Public land is a blight,
            You can really just take it by force.
            We’re loaded and locked,
            I’m a rancher half-cocked,
            My rights they exceed those of yours.

            Now sometimes at night,
            When the cable glows bright,
            I think ’bout the wild creatures, too.
            But that’s gone in a burst,
            Private sector is first.
            Take your laws and your rules and screw you.

            Home, home on the range,
            Where FoxNews and Hannity play.
            Where the right-wing is heard,
            And the gun nuts are stirred,
            Getting crazier each broadcast day.

            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/25/1294188/-Cartoon-Cliven-Bundy-s-Home-nbsp-on-nbsp-the-nbsp-Range?detail=email#

          • I wish old Clive would “swing.”

            He denounced his citizenship and he should be deported, or hanged, then deported. 🙂

          • Yes, he did, denounce his citizenship when he came out against our duly elected government and broke our laws. Of course, it isn’t isn’t stealing if you have enough money to redefine stealing or you wear a 10 gallon hat. Now, if someone tries to take something from old bundy, he will squeal like a branded calf and insist the government protect his rights.

        • Prior to dropping the R word on this guy, I would like to read more context, but what if he is a racist….that fact has nothing to do with the current situation unless…let me guess, he hates Obama and Holder because they are “black”, or negro, or African American or what ever.

          Stretch?

        • You know, on a second reading, I notice he said, “abort their young children. “So, I guess its, “Johnny, since its your eighth birthday, and you have been in so much trouble this year, we are going down to the clinic, and I am going to have you “aborted.”

          Either that, or like most fundies, he never has really read his bible.

  25. You mean it has actually hit your airways…and, of course, as usual, the whole thing has been imploded. Yes, we agree that he was not right in withholding his taxes on the property but it was extremely wrong for the BLM to go in and completely destroy his water troughs, ruin his fencing, separate cows and calves and kill, at least a dozen cows including two bulls. Not only that, the BLM who is supposedly protecting that desert tortoise you would all be concerned about protecting, proceeded to run over the turtle habitat and then surround the ranch with at least 200 snipers up in the hills. Even by your standards, a bit extreme and inhumane don’t you think?

    The BLM used to be there for the benefit of the leasee or rancher. To help them get what they needed. In other words, they were supposed to provide the water troughs, fencing etc…. Wow have things become twisted.

    We were not upset with the fact that Cliven Bundy did not pay his taxes, but rather with the fact that we are just about fed up with the governments intrusion into our lives. It was an excuse in a sense to make a statement just like you all did with ‘Occupy Wall Street.’ Remember the land in question belongs to all of US. Not the government. Harry Reidtard saw it as an opportunity to lease that particular land to the Chinese for a solar farm. Why there? I grew up in Las Vegas and I know that area well. It is very beautiful and used to be where the Pueblo Indian’s lived. There are underground springs, desert grasses, huge Cottonwoods and the Virgin River runs into Lake Mead. Just around the bend lies a warm spring. When there is plenty of ‘ugly’ desert land around Las Vegas….why there? Makes you wonder doesn’t it?

    In fact, that desert tortoise was moved to a habitat of their own near Las Vegas. Now that there is no longer money to provide for them the government is having to euthanize some of them. Yah, right preservation…
    You are not getting the entire story. You are being fed lies, lies, and more lies. Don’t you even wonder why all of a sudden there is such a government land grab especially where water rights are concerned? I site Texas as an example.

    Get real folks….Open your eyes!

  26. When stupid takes his cows to market the feds will take the money, so he didn’t win, all he did was get his 15 mins on Fox.

  27. To our Conservative medias, pundits, politicians and anarchists and to fellow commentor joe schmo, who says I don’t know my history because the “liberals” have me hoodwinked. You and your ‘kind’ made a huge mistake when you elevated this guy to a level of admiration and respect, and your support or silence on his recent racial epitaphs of hate and disgust, will only substantiate that act of racism and anarchy. And if you default to silence on the racial epitaphs, after verbally elevating the the man who said it, it just condones it. Be prepared to suffer the “lawful” consequences of your unlawful acts Bundy and his fellow American anarchists.

  28. Jon Stewart CRUSHED Hannity last night. The effluent of hypocrisy coming off of Bullsh*%t Mountain must keep the plumbers very busy over at FOX.

  29. Conservatives want “smaller government” (whatever that really means) so if they encountered a rancher in a fight with the big, bad government, then he must be someone their movement could rally behind, right?

    Now they’re trying to wash the stench of racism off them after months of pre-emptively claiming that the “racist” moniker was a creation of the left-wing liberal mainstream media.

    No, racism is real, my friends. And until the Conservative Right addresses that reality and combats racism, they will continue to find themselves trying to rid themselves of that stench.

    • You are so full of bullcrap! You don’t even know what you are saying. Guess what fool. Conservatives are becoming more diverse all the time….Gee I wonder why.

  30. Reminds me of White South Afrkaners claiming title to African Land on the African Continent- as THEIR Birth Right.

    • Check out Colleen’s idiot remarks below. If we were to take her at face value, we’d have to assume that — analogously speaking — the Africans in Africa supported individual Afrikaaners’ claims against the Afrikaaners’ white government. Because according to her, Native Americans back Bundy up. Ppppppppptbwahahaha!

        • Let me know when you make a relevant one and we’ll be happy to comprehend it. Just saying Africa every other word doesn’t qualify though so FAIL.

      • Sorry but you used Afrikaaners’, Africans, and Africa all in one sentence and not much else and it was a pointlessly irrelevant lame sentence to begin with, so FAIL. Yea, it kinida hurts your credibility that the only Indians you know are the ones in front of the cigar store and pretty much the whole damn tribe on my pages back Bundy up and you’re just an Angry Settler without one, huh? greg Redhorse, Red Bear Positano, David Rockman, kara Boyd Brewer, Las Vegas tribune, the list goes on. Difference between me and you is I can back not only the Bundys up, but my statements. Loser.

        • It was neither pointless or irrelevant. It was an analogy, and paralleling the Bundy case and your own position demonstrates how ludicrous your position is.

          Secondly, you don’t know which natives I know. I haven’t told you. What’s worse, you’re generalizing in a particularly racist way about “your own kind” (though anyone who knows the natives’ history knows how disparate the tribes were, each its own nation, with about as much in common as France and England).

          And all of this is because you’re an opportunist seizing upon the Bundy case as a lightning rod of anti-statist sentiment. It has nothing to do with land rights. It doesn’t even have anything to do with the Native Americans. This is about you and your handful of pseudo-libertarian butt buddies pushing an empty ideology that a teenager could deflate.

          And you have yet to back up anything. You “can”, huh? Prove it. Prove it without linking stupid cornball websites filled with rambling BS from a bunch of hacks. You can’t, can you? All you do is heap insults, and then heap more when I toss ’em right back at you. That’s all you’ve got, so that’s all you’ll get.

          You wouldn’t listen to the facts -anyway- since they contradict your fantasies.

          • And people, like Bundy, never hesitated to take land that the Indians were using and fencing it off from the Indians.

          • Yeah, I mentioned that to Colleen, it kinda didn’t matter to her/him. That’s how I knew Colleen is just another pseudo-libertarian hack.

          • If natives had any respect for the meaningless words and delusional ravings of pasty entitled colonialist illegal aliens, we’d be devastated you don’t approve.

          • Not really. Settlers were allowed in by that treaty, you know, the one the US government broke and that’s why the Shoshone are cool with the Bundys being there but not the US since they never paid rent on the land, don’t own it, and can’t charge rent on it. So they’re just thieving freeloaders extorting money out of other people masquerading as lawful citizens, kinda like you.

          • Colleen, it is true that our government did mistreat the American Indians. And it is true that some of them still do not trust us and are angry. If you are really Shoshone, from Nevada, you would have a reason to be angry. However, I am a bit doubtful as it was the ranchers who mowed down the pinion trees to facilitate their cattle grazing. Go back and study the 70s and 80s. It was the ranchers who thought they should freely graze on Indian lands. Yes, the first settlers were allowed to settle without being harassed. But, here is where you are short on history. The cattle ranchers built the fences that offended the Indians. Some of the Indians were forced onto reservations. Some of them were paid to go on reservations and some of them went willingly with promises that were not kept. And when oil was discovered on the reservation in Oklahoma. the reservation was moved. When land became scarce THE SETTLERS were allowed a land grab on the Cherokee Strip. So, you see, I am dubious about your claim as to who you are or you would know who the real perps were. Most Nevada Shoshones know who mowed down the pinion trees and ran cattle on their lands. If you are still seeking redress because of crimes in another century – That was your ancestors and mine and not us.

          • She’s still laboring under the assumption that any treaty between the federal government and Native Americans would treat settlers as sovereign citizens apart from our nation. That’s never been the way it works and, while I don’t doubt the Shoshone may have thought it was way back when the treaty was signed, a treaty isn’t going to change a core tenet of federalism. Treaties don’t trump the Constitution. Which means, if the treaty is as Colleen describes, then the Shoshone were deceived and lied to because the treaty’s parameters cannot even be legally fulfilled.

            No individual settler, including Bundy (who’s only a “settler” in the 20th century, his claims about coming in the 1800s were proved false), is above the federal government. They aren’t just settlers, they’re citizens. Even if they witlessly deny it.

            See, this is what the Sovereign Citizen movement doesn’t understand. If you want to ignore constitutionality and annex part of a nation, you have to be able to enforce your claim. They couldn’t, even if they got their paws on a nuclear weapon. They have no power without the rest of us. We ARE the government; they’re a bunch of spineless weaklings.

  31. Perhaps Bundy will hire all those “Negroes” he feels never lernt’ how to properly pick cotton, to work on his WELFARE PROVIDED land.

  32. Brian Sweitzer former governor of MT said, when he takes his cattle to market, slap a lien on them & take the money. Problem solved. But after reading an article this morning, the republican in congress are starting to back off. See Mr Bundy went on a rant saying the Negro’s should go back to share cropping & picking cotten.

  33. Costume party …that’s funny but true….these loser “patriot” cowboys just wanted a chance to wave their hardware in public….I would call them drugstore cowboys….but really they are more like liquor store cowboys….

  34. New update from Channel 8 News Now. There is a video released and it can be seen on The Daily Kos. You can be an eyewitness to what really happened. You can see the bundy thugs pouring lighter fluid on media vehicles and threatening to set them on fire. The thugs called the Holiday Inn 9 times and threatened to bomb it if they didn’t kick Federal Agents out. They told hotel staff they would be dragged out in the parking lot and shot. Thugs asked metro police sgt if he was ready to die. Like other terrorists they made demands of the government – they would start shooting if they didn’t leave. Since they surrounded themselves with women and children, law enforcement backed down, for now. Sheriff Lombards said, “We were outmanned and outgunned and there would not be good results from a shootout.” Now, I ask you, do you want our country to be governed by lawless gangs?

    • There’s more. My mother lives in North Las Vegas, not far from this, and she’s been relaying some of what’s happening to me. The militia thugs have been setting up CHECK POINTS. Guess they took a hint from other militant losers (like the Taliban). Parents are afraid to send their kids to school. I understand why the federal government defused the situation by backing away from a physical showdown, but I hope they settle it in court sooner than later. The militia whack jobs are a scary brand of idiot that may not leave until FBI snipers make them.

  35. I have a word for Colleen. You are a fraud. I just rerun my Robert Redford documentaries and there is no way a member of the tribe would defend a rancher after what they did to them. You might have some American Indian blood in you, but you are not a member of the nation.

  36. Possibly the worst thing about Bundy is Faux News. This channel typically supports the “worst of the Worst”. Everyone recognizes that Cliven Bundy is a racist idiot, but Faux should not and cannot be excused for their continually promoting the wrong point of view.

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