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Wednesday, March 20, 2019

Republicans were quick to distance themselves from the Nevada rancher after his remarks about slavery, but he points to a deeper issue with conservative policy.

It’s tempting dismiss Cliven Bundy – the Nevada rancher who last week suggested that blacks were better off under slavery – as a fringe conservative unworthy of any more airtime. But his remarks provide a window into the underbelly of today’s conservative movement and are worth a closer look.

Bundy was a little known entity until earlier this month when his two-decade long refusal to pay cattle grazing fees escalated into a face off between his own armed militia and agents from the Bureau of Land Management. The episode launched him into the national spotlight and endeared him to conservatives like Senators Rand Paul and Dean Heller, and Texas Governor Rick Perry, among others.

Bundy capitalized on his moment in the spotlight to expound on the grazing rights of his cattle, abortion, and slavery.  He suggested that government subsidies have caused “negroes” to abort their “young children” and “put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton.” He went on: “And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

Conservatives scrambled to distance themselves from Bundy by denouncing his comments as offensive and racist. But they were rather quiet on Bundy’s characterization of the safety net as a modern form of slavery. Their silence reflects a common ideology uniting conservative politicians to the likes of Bundy, one that lays the blame for poverty squarely on the shoulders of poor people – particularly poor people of color – and the government programs meant to support them.

And it’s hard to argue that the GOP’s recent social policy proposals aren’t fueled by the same fire that propelled Bundy’s diatribe. Rand Paul has equated universal health care and government programs such as food stamps to slavery. Congressional candidates from North Carolina to Arizona have argued that entitlement programs are simply a way for government to assert power over the people. Paul Ryan, whose latest budget slashes spending for Medicaid and food stamps, has warned that the safety net is on the brink of becoming “a hammock that lulls able-bodied people to lives of dependency and complacency, that drains them of their will and their incentive to make the most of their lives.” Mike Huckabee suggested that by supporting mandated contraceptive coverage, Democrats were suggesting women needed “Uncle Sugar” to control their “libidos or reproductive system.”

These notions have motivated conservatives’ strategic dismantling of the social safety net. Cuts to food stamps, with more to come should Paul Ryan have his way. Refusal to participate in Medicaid expansion, leaving more than 3 million low-income people uninsured. Rejection of the minimum wage increase. Opposition to extending federal unemployment benefits. Repudiation of equal pay measures. The imposition of funding cuts and regulations that have shuttered women’s health clinics across the country. And a government shutdown spurred by opposition to the ACA, specifically the law’s contraceptive mandate.

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148 responses to “Cliven Bundy’s Window Into The War On The Poor”

  1. Dominick Vila says:

    The fact that Republicans hate Affirmative Action is not a secret, and it is not even disputed by most conservatives. Their allegations that President Obama is a product of Affirmative Action help explain their hatred of a policy that helps ethnic minorities overcome the barriers that prevented them to get ahead for well over a century.

    • disqus_ivSI3ByGmh says:

      However, they love guys like Clarence Thomas and Allen West, both of whom admitted they would not have gotten to where they were without Affirmative Action. In Thomas’ case, Affirmative Action may have gotten him into college where he wanted to go, but his own intellectual abilities further opened doors for him. West – well, the less said about this disgraced former Soldier the better. He dishonored his uniform, then snowjobed his constituents – until they realized he made Michelle Bachmann look rational, and did the right thing politically.

    • angelsinca says:

      Conservatives don’t “hate” Affirmative Action. They dislike its inherent racist premise that an extra advantage should be given based on race, sex or religion.

      • johninPCFL says:

        Yes. They dislike the idea that after generations of being ignored (or worse) that black Americans should be at least judged rationally when applying for jobs or higher education. It’s very difficult to hire whites only when you actually HAVE to talk to the black applicant.

        • idamag says:

          Just because laws were made to protect people, does not mean it cured the underlying cause in the first place.

          • angelsinca says:

            Defending a practice that promotes discrimination doesn’t help much either.
            So what is the “underlying cause”?

          • Leftout says:

            Admittedly even, by the Left, Clarence Thomas , Allen West and others, took advantage of the Affirmative Action “Rights” and now are regarded as not adequate in their jobs, being Labeled Uncle Toms according to the LEFT. This proves that Affirmative action promoted the mediocre . Affirmative Action casts a pall of suspicion on its participants. Should I go to a Brain Surgeon who got in by Affirmative Action, or should I accept the theories of a President that knows nothing.
            Obama of course is an Exception since he is at least part Asian, which gives him some better cerebral matter, he has yet to tap into it.

      • Gimme a break. Conservatives “hate” the idea that black people might actually succeed if given just a slight advantage in hiring, admission to schools, etc., to make up for centuries of disadvantage. If black people succeed, it makes the cognitive dissonance of conservative racism more intense.

        I know a lot of conservatives; I grew up in a very conservative family and a very conservative neighborhood. Many, many, many people that I grew up with were (and are) racist. You can fool some of the people with conservative rhetoric about conservatives not being racist, boot straps, equality and all the rest of the B.S., but you can’t fool those of us who grew up in these conservative environments. We know that racism underlies most American conservative politics.

        • tobyspeeks says:

          I grew up in a similar situation. I know first hand of what you said. I still deal with it at 45 and my parents and older relatives are in their 70’s.

        • angelsinca says:

          Racism is definitely not exclusive to conservatives. We all share our lives with liberals and conservatives. Unfortunately, soem of them are racists. The conservatives that are racist tend not to deny it like the liberals that are racist. Just an observation. IOW, racism is not a political trait.

          • Mark Coonan says:

            To label it an observation suggests that it’s a matter of fact, rather than opinion, and it simply isn’t.

    • idamag says:

      Every Republican, I know, is against affirmative action and I live in the reddest state in the nation.

  2. Annemb says:

    I fail to understand why such people as Cliven Bundy are given so much press, news and Internet space! It would be more profitable – make more sense for the media to focus on building up the electorate, not catering to those destructive forces that would destroy our secular nation with their hate rantings.

    • disqus_ivSI3ByGmh says:

      Anne, hopefully articles like this will inflame the liberal portion of the electorate enough to go to the polls in November and render people like Bundy, and those who initially supported him, into insignificance.

      • Annemb says:

        I surely hope so. That would be an answer to my prayer.

        I’m sick and tired of the crap that has been coming out of D.C. since Reagan who embraced the right-wing i.e., “Christian” Coalition… It’s gotten worse, as has the greed!

        The Dems, liberal portion and progressives need to move their butts and stop retiring into their private corners and let the same happen this year, as happened in 2010. I remember President Obama warned us to get out and vote OR we would see a drastic change. Instead folks stayed home and didn’t vote, thus opening the door wide for the T.P.s who lied about jobs, to usurp the GOP and turn that once great Party into their puppet.

        • Mark Forsyth says:

          Don’t worry about the Progressive factor Anne,we’re on the job.To be sure,we will be at the polls.Too bad the Dem.Party faithful refuses to see anyone other than Clinton as a viable candidate for President.She is much too much a war hawk and her long standing corporate involvements lead many to believe that she would mostly maintain the status quo.

          • Annemb says:

            Your words are most encouraging, Mark. I agree with you that Clinton is “too much of a war hawk” and she is tied in with corporations. I’m afraid she would certainly keep the status quo. Damn!

            Personally, I like Bernie Sanders, who I heard speak, some seven or eight years ago when he came to Brewer Maine, just across the river from Bangor. Bernie is a true statesman, intelligent and caring man. BTW, I spoke with him after and got for his autograph. 🙂 But, he does quite well in the Senate and we need true representatives as Bernie with the courage to speak truth to power.

            Thanks!

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            Hi Anne,Yes,Bernie is a favorite of mine.I had contact with him many years ago in Amherst Ma. He is a true People’s Champion.What a wonderful team Sanders and Warren would make,or vice versa.Unfortunately,with all the money on Clinton,other viable candidates are not even giving it any consideration.And she still has not declared her intentions.

          • Annemb says:

            Hi Mark, I totally agree with you about a Sanders/ Warren ticket – even vice versa. You must have read my mind.

            I’m glad you met Bernie Sanders. I was extremely impressed with his knowledge, presentation and statesmanship. I’ve even contributed to his re-election campaign with a few dollars both times.

            Great post!

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            I get news from Sanders each week in my email.It is called the Bernie Buzz and has many updates about his activities both at state and national levels.Makes me think about moving to Vermont.

          • Annemb says:

            I subscribe to the Bernie Buzz too. He also asks our opinion, which I like.

            I attended a conference in Rutland, Vermont in 1999 and loved it. People, land – beautiful! Incidentally, I had to “junk” my Ford Escort in Vermont because a strut went kapoot while traveling on Rte 25 into Vermont. Some friends also at the Conference brought me back with them to Augusta.

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            Sounds like you got lucky after your car trouble Anne.I’ve been looking at my truckers road atlas and wondering where you got on to Rte 25 as it looks to be a good ways south of Bangor.Then it turns a good ways North through New Hampshire.I can see where you “might” have made your connections,but not sure.I have a long standing agreement with friends I’ve known from my early days in western Mass.,to join them one day to explore the Northeast Kingdom region on the upper Connecticut River between Vermont and N.H..

          • Annemb says:

            I lived in Augusta at the time and remember traveling on Rte 25 into Vermont. I remember taking a left in Vermont (just over the border?) towards Rutland and the Conference, but can’t remember the route I traveled on. Fortunately another driver stopped by, checked my car and he found the strut was gone. He told me it was dangerous to drive, but I needed to be very careful – that that I needed to dispose of the car, which I did in Rutland after emptying it of my stuff.

            Thanks Mark.

          • FredAppell says:

            Thom Hartmann used to have Bernie on his radio show once a week. It was my favorite part of the show.
            Thom would introduce Bernie as America’s Senator. Great show but I haven’t listened to it in a few years.

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            Thom Hartmann,now that’s a name and a person I haven’t heard or seen in a dogs age.

          • FredAppell says:

            Amen brother! She’s bought and paid for by the same Wall St. bankers who helped create this mess.

    • Grannysmovin says:

      The only thing that should be relevant about Bundy is when will he pay his back grazing fees, be arrested for obstruction of justice and bringing armed militia into our state and endangering those of us who live near his ranch or travel the road ways from Mesquite to N. Las Vegas.

      • Annemb says:

        I agree with you that he shouldn’t get away without paying his grazing fees, etc.

        • Independent1 says:

          A lot was made out of the Bundy stand-off for 2 reason: 1) the stand-off was a lot more serious than the majority of Americans realize and 2) GOP loving conservatives charged out to defend a quasi terrorist group – ignoring the fact that the Bundy group of quasi terrorists demonstrates what their 24/7 hate rhetoric is creating across America.

          See the DailyKos article at this link:

          http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/02/1296373/-Bundy-Thugs-Poured-Lighter-Fluid-Around-Media-Trucks-Issued-Bomb-Threats?detail=email

          • Annemb says:

            What you write makes sense. And, yes, I’m familiar with the article. I subscribe to DailyKos.

          • Independent1 says:

            Have you noticed too that the American media failed to accurately report the standoff?? Few Americans and several even posting on the NM were aware of the terrorist-type nature of what really happened.

            Just one more way that the American media is complicit in furthering the agenda of the GOP – by not accurately reporting the criminal nature of not only their rhetoric but the actions of many of their supporters.

          • Annemb says:

            Absolutely! In fact, I believe the media is “conservative” or as I say, “authoritarian”, not at all factual and that there is no investigative reporting any longer.

            Thanks so much.

          • angelsinca says:

            It’s not like LOVE is oozing from the Left, pard’.

          • Independent1 says:

            You’re wasting your time if you’re even remotely trying to compare the trickle of negative push back that’s now coming from the left over the right’s 24/7 destruction of everything America stands for – to the 24/7 hate rhetoric and fake scandal creation coming from almost everyone associated with the right (be it politicians, entertainers, media personalities, you name it) in an attempt to cover up all the destruction the right is committing in America.

          • angelsinca says:

            ‘Everything America Stands for’ is a moving target, depending on who is looking down the sights.

          • Mark Coonan says:

            Yeah, and that dialogue has been consistently dragged to the right since the early ’70s.

          • angelsinca says:

            “…that dialogue has been consistently dragged to the right since the early ’70s.”

            The moving target argument? Not sure about your respeonse. The past six years have been controlled by the new majority in politics and the media. . And, those voices have been echoing loudly since before the Irag war.

          • Mark Coonan says:

            No, not the “moving target” argument; the shifting goalposts and boundaries one. It’s straight out of the Lewis F. Powell playbook.

          • angelsinca says:

            I agree. Powell’s Memorandum describing The Left’s antagonism of free enterprise and capitalism has only increased with its rise to power during the past decade.

          • Mark Coonan says:

            Really? What, specifically, are you talking about?

        • angelsinca says:

          They should consider Bundy’s stewardship of the land to offset any grazing fees. What good is ‘public’ land if the public isn’t allowed to use it?

          • Annemb says:

            Use it? Yes, but responsibly!

          • johninPCFL says:

            If he were using other land in the immediate area, the fees that other ranchers charge amount to $16 per calf/cow. The fees he’s refusing to pay are $1.35 per calf/cow. How much theft should he be allowed?

          • angelsinca says:

            If the president spends $6M to raise money for the DNC that is used to challenge the GOP, how much theft of public monies should be allowed?

          • johninPCFL says:

            Reagan added $4T to the national debt and governed while incompetent. GWB started two unfunded wars while taking 1/3 of his time off on vacation. How much theft of public monies should be allowed?

          • angelsinca says:

            Maybe Obama should change his name to Barrack Reagan Bush Bush Obama since he can’t seem to stand alone without being compared to the misdeeds of his predecessors. Do previous wrongs really make it right? Really? Compared to Wayne Gacey, Ted Bundy wasn’t that bad. Besides, he was more likeable.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Simply pointing out the hypocrisy of another far-right loon. GWB takes a third of his time off, goes AWOL from his “let’s just skip this Vietnam thing” post, and not a peep. Reagan took Carter’s $400B debt and ran it up to $4T buying $1200 toilet seats, $700 hammers, and Nicaraguan death squads, and not a peep.
            Obama spends $6M and the firestorm erupts. Comparisons can be elucidating. For the math impaired among you, that’s one one-thousandth of GWBs numbers, and half of what Boehner spends EVERY SINGLE MONTH in the House.
            Six-sigma quality improvement programs teach that the best place to put cost reduction efforts are on the most resource-intensive processes. On this scale, widely adopted worldwide, controlling Boehner’s spending is MUCH more cost-effective than worrying about Obama’s spending.

          • angelsinca says:

            Not worried about Obama’s spending. In the scheme of the rising national debt, it doesn’t matter much anymore. I was commenting on the argument that Bundy’s actions were costing the taxpayers a seemingly huge sum of money. That argument makes little sense when compared to the sums of money thrown around by the stewards of taxpayer $, such as the amount given to The Congo.

          • Mark Coonan says:

            Yet this is exactly the sort of supposed logic you used to dismiss Bundy’s transgression as negligible.

          • angelsinca says:

            I did not say the supposed ‘transgression’ were negligible. I said the amount of land affected by the grazing of Bundy’s herd vs the amount of land controlled by the BLM in NV barely registers.

          • Independent1 says:

            Let’s see the facts that Obama spent $6M raising money for the DNC!!!

            Are you aware that whenever the President travels for anything other than “government business” that he pays for everything but the plane fare which is needed to take along the security contingent that is REQUIRED BY LAW?? And that every month, the president gets a bill for all the food used in the White House that was not bought to say dine a visiting dignitary?? And that at the end of their time in office, the Carters had to almost declare bankruptcy because of all the debt they ran up while in the White House.?? So when Obama goes to Martha’s Vineyard and rents a cottage, HE pays for the cottage and everything associated with the vacation except for the plane to get there.

            And are you aware that Bushie Boy spent more money flying 78 times back and forth between Washington and his Texas Ranch, than Obama has spent on all his less than 100 days vacation??? And that as John pointed out, Bushie Boy was on vacation more than 950 days in 8 years in office sucking up taxpayer money for his salary while he spent days playing golf, hunting and clearing brush on his ranch in Texas.

            A ranch which cost the American taxpayers millions to upgrade so it was suitable for a “2nd White House”? And are you aware that of the last 6 presidents, that it’s only 4 Republicans who have had the American taxpayers spending millions to fix up “2nd White Houses”?? And Nixon was the worst, we had to pay to fix up TWO “2nd White Houses” for him – one in Florida and one in California.

            You don’t want to get in being snarky about what presidents are spending, because just like the spending our money like drunken sailors as part of government business, EVERY GOP PRESIDENT THAT HAS BEEN IN OFFICE SINCE FDR HAS SPENT TAXPAYER MONEY LIKE DRUNKEN SAILORS EVEN ON THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!

          • angelsinca says:

            Nothing new there, again. What does it cost to take AF1 for a political joy ride? The ‘they did it too’ argument doesn’t acknowledge or exonerate misdeeds by either party.

          • angelsinca says:

            The previous-wrongs=today’s-rights argument is still bad math. Thanks for dusting off another old talking point.

          • awakenaustin says:

            Next time I go to a public park here, I will just take over half of it for my own use without getting a permit or paying any fees and tell the police they should appreciate my stewardship rather than kicking me out and taking me to jail.

          • angelsinca says:

            Of the 71 million acres comprising Nevada, the BLM controls almost 48 million of them. The land used by Bundy doesn’t even register. We really don’t see the public (or anyone else) being excluded from using any land due to Bundy’s occupation of the desert patch.

          • awakenaustin says:

            Per your analysis, my individual littering does not matter – it is only one piece of litter, my dog crapping on the public street doesn’t matter – it is only one dog, my stealing a little bit of money from the bank doesn’t matter – it has a lot of money. This could go on but I bet you are rolling with it by now.
            The 600,000 thousand acres of grazing used by Mr. Bundy since 1993 seems like a relatively large number of acres (Puts my 13.5 acres W.V. hillside to shame, not to mention the lot my home sits on in Austin). The money he owes in fees, fines and otherwise, more than a $1,000,000.00 is a relatively large amount of money.
            Mr. Bundy is just a thief. A man intent on getting something for nothing. He is a con man and he has conned you. Or maybe not, maybe you are puffing him for your own purposes.

          • angelsinca says:

            DIdn’t say Bundy’s land use didn’t matter. Said it hardly registers. The scale of protest over his use is not commensurate with the reaction by the government. It seems the main point of contention here is that your camp feels permission has to be granted for everything we do, we say, we think. Freedom feels better.

          • awakenaustin says:

            Yes you did. It doesn’t register equates to it doesn’t matter in the context and manner in which you used it, and that is what you intended until I pointed out the sloppy thinking underlying it.
            Your assertion of what I and “my camp” might believe is based on nothing more than your own desire to cast those who disagree with your assessments in some unfavorable light viz your own personal beliefs.
            No one I have read in this string has said anything remotely suggestive of harboring a belief that one must seek permission for everything one does, says or thinks.
            Because you like to view yourself as on the side of freedom and liberty, you try to cast other’s views on issues, when they are contrary to yours, as anti-freedom and anti-liberty.
            So your thinking on this as best I can ascertain it, is that since you are “pro-freedom” everything you think and every view you espouse is “pro-freedom” and everyone with a different view is “anti-freedom.”
            This is not a lot different than wrapping yourself in a flag and proclaiming yourself as a “real American” and implying all your opposition is anti-American. It is simple demagoguery.

          • angelsinca says:

            it is possible to discuss the topic without analyzing the commenter. This is exactly what I meant (and not ‘implied’), when I mentioned that we are told how to think and what to say. Please don’t put your words in my mouth or pretend to know what I think just to produce what you want to hear. Thanks.

          • Independent1 says:

            Well, I’m not making those comments about your intelligence based purely on your recent comments but rather on your history of consistently making unfounded, unresearched and obviously unknowing antagonizing comments that you have a history of making on this blog site.

            And here are some of the specific allegations that conservationists are making about Bundy’s insistence on grazing his cattle in many places that they have no business being grazed – and more often than not, he grazes them in places where the BLM would not give him a permit – at least not at the time when he wants to graze them there:

            The nonprofit Center for Biological Diversity stated, “Despite having no legal right to do so, cattle from Bundy’s ranch have continued to graze throughout the Gold Butte area, competing with tortoises for food, hindering the ability of plants to recover from extensive wildfires, trampling rare plants, damaging ancient American Indian cultural sites and threatening the safety of recreationists.”[22]

            Rob Mrowka, also with the Center for Biological Diversity, said that the BLM “is allowing a freeloading rancher and armed thugs to seize hundreds of thousands of acres of the people’s land as their own. It’s backing down in the face of threats and posturing of armed sovereignists.”[65]

            Environmentalists held that the BLM’s withdrawal sent the wrong message to law-abiding ranchers who do secure grazing permits and operate within the law.[65]

          • angelsinca says:

            Thanks for the info. The copied text mostly answered the 2 questions I had from a conservation radical’s point of view. I wouldn’t expect anything different from the bio-political CBD, They are a lawsuit mill that uses the court system to bully the public and government into accepting an extreme green ideology Those folks won’t stop their relentless lawsuits until the planet has returned to its natural state, or until mankind no longer exists.

            On a personal note, It isn’t difficult to present information or make a point without the personally insulting commentary about intellectual worthiness. Insults don’t win arguments. They only reveal one’s nature.

          • Mark Coonan says:

            Freedom to steal is an inalienable right?

          • angelsinca says:

            No. Stealing is not a freedom nor an inalienable right. The thievery argument isn’t as effective as the racist one. Though both are pretty hollow. Independent1 still has the best offering that the threats posed by armed Bundy supporters that endangered those at and near the site had caused unnecessary angst. Though it was a bit extreme to label the incident as ‘terrorism’. The actions by the feds had way too much force behind them. Prior negotiations would have worked better than bureaucratic armed response. A cooperative government fares better than a bullying one.

          • MJRinPA says:

            And that makes him right in refusing to pay grazing fees, and to comply with the court orders?
            Should we all be allow to select which laws we’ll follow and which we won’t folow? That’s anarchy.

          • angelsinca says:

            Pretty sure the PotUS and AG would argue the point about anarchy.

          • angelsinca says:

            No. The bullying actions of the government doesn’t make anything ‘right’. What would yo call it when our own president is allowed to select which laws we will follow and which ones we won’t? As much as I dislike the snarky and overused term, I have to ask, “Hmmmmm”?

          • Independent1 says:

            That’s exactly the point, if terrorists like Bundy are allowed to use the land free to grass their cattle 24/7, no other Americans will get to use it. That’s exactly why the government has established guidelines and fees for using public lands: SO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC CAN USE IT AND NOTJUST THIEVES LIKE BUNDY!!!!!!!!!

          • Annemb says:

            Amen!!!

          • idamag says:

            And if bundy is allowed, then all ranchers will want to be allowed. There will not only be a great loss of revenue to the United States and the BLM; but the wars will erupt between the ranchers. Might will defeat right. And after they have proven they can take and kill, when will all other people be safe?

          • angelsinca says:

            A ‘great loss of revenue? Not so much. The annual grazing receipts by the BLM for the entire US was less than $13M for 2012. Last year, the Obama administration gave away $210M to The Congo.

          • Independent1 says:

            More lies huh!! I’ve done a number of searches and there are no stories about Obama giving the Congo any money last year. Let’s see the proof?? Of course I noticed you’ve been skipping around my request for proof on the 6 million of taxpayer’s money that Obama has supposedly spent in raising money for the DNC. You’re just cementing your record of being a pathological liar that is typical of Republicans.

          • angelsinca says:

            Thanks for the Kerry offering not-so-Independent1. So Democrats are buying elections all over the world. Sorry, that was The ‘Democratic Republic of Congo’ I referenced. Here’s another table showing that give away as $236M. The ‘pathological liar’ accusation is unfounded. You sound more like Russell “whacko” Byrd now.

            http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/here-is-foreign-every-country-that-gets-more-federal-aid-than-detroit

          • angelsinca says:

            Bundy a’ terrorist’. Really. That’s not an extreme position. Not at all.

          • angelsinca says:

            “The Federal Land Policy and Management Act (FLPMA) of 1976. This act declares that, with the exception of individual tracts that may be disposed of in the national interest, it is the policy of the United States to retain its public lands in Federal ownership.”

            The guidelines and fees administered by the BLM are for the preservation of the FLPMA charter, and NOT for the “American People” to go prancing in the tulips on the prairies.

          • Independent1 says:

            It doesn’t include the American People prancing through the tulips on the praire?? Then why is one of the initiatives in the BLM’s mission protecting public lands for the publics’ RECREATION???

            See This:

            The BLM’s multiple-use mission, set forth in the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976, mandates that we manage public land resources for a variety of uses, such as energy development, livestock grazing, recreation, and timber harvesting, while protecting a wide array of natural, cultural, and historical resources, many of which are found in the BLM’s 27 million-acre National Landscape Conservation System. The conservation system includes 221 Wilderness Areas totaling 8.7 million acres, as well as 16 National Monuments comprising 4.8 million acres.

            The BLM does its complex and challenging work with an annual budget of more than $1 billion and a workforce of about 10,000 full-time employees. The BLM is one of a handful of Federal agencies that generates more revenue for the United States than it spends. For example, in Fiscal Year 2012, nearly $5 billion will be generated by activities on BLM-managed lands, including an estimated $4.3 billion from onshore oil and gas development, with about half of those revenues going to the states where the mineral leasing occurred.

          • angelsinca says:

            Nothing new there, but thanks anyway.

          • Independent1 says:

            Yeah! I know. The facts I posted are too much to grasp by people with an IQ of around 50.

          • angelsinca says:

            Not too much to grasp at all. Its all been rehashed to the point of boring. Please keep the unnecessary offensive personal remarks to yourself. Thanks

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            And you are one of his cow patties.

          • FredAppell says:

            Cow patties? Really Mark? You’re too funny.

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            Well Gee, it seemed appropriate.

          • FredAppell says:

            Oh it was, but I’m used to seeing you go for the throat with a follow up to your insults. I recently told you that when angelsinca and I debated, we ended it amicably. I never thought he’d defend scum like Bundy. It just goes to show that you never know a persons real politics until a story like this occurs. Did you see the link that Independent1 provided? I did and it was disturbing. Conservatives always claim that they’re all for “law and order”, I guess that depends on whose “law and order” we’re talking about. I’m shutting down for the rest of the night so have a great night.

          • angelsinca says:

            Interesting how you single out one person to carry the full burden of rants toward Conservatives. Silly, if not bigoted and myopic of you, Fred.

          • FredAppell says:

            Bigoted and myopic? I hardly think so. Every time you post here I have left you alone, I’ve never joined the pile on that your comments incur, that’s not what I’m here for. Contrary to how it may seem, I find something useful with some of your talking points, I may not agree with them but I respect them. This time however, you disappointed me with your defense of Bundy, he is the lunatic that he is accused of being. I’ve also made the distinction that not all conservatives agree with him, I thought you would be one of those conservatives.

          • angelsinca says:

            Thanks for the reply Fred. Not sure I actually defended Bundy. I questioned the actions by the BLM and suggested stewardship by the rancher might offset grazing fees. I have not defended what he said or what he did. Yet, most here felt it appropriate to attack me personally, including yourself for not joining the mob condemnation of the offensive, law breaking Bundy.

            I was not surprised to see the Bundy issue ignite attacks by the left toward ALL things conservative. Yet the conservative blogs seem to confine their attacks toward the illegal actions by both Bundy and the government, and the racially offensive comments made by Bundy. It’s easy to see where the reasonable ones sit. Thanks again.

          • Independent1 says:

            What are you calling “stewardship by the rancher”??
            You mean the ranchers allowing their cattle to destroy the environment?? Is that what you’re calling “stewardship”??

            Are you even remotely aware of the damage those cattle do to the environment?? Not only do the destroy the river banks as they tromp in and out of the streams and rivers they also pollute the streams and they destroy many endangered species of plantings and even the lives of some endangered animals; including the habitat in which even more animals live. Believe it or not clueless, ranchers are allowing their cattle to graze in places that they were never intended to be such that the animals living in these areas are endangered by the cattle and the cattle may even be eating plants that some animals have learned and need to live on.

            All these reasons are why the BLM tries to control the grazing!! The planet and other animal species don’t want them there!! I realize this is a lot to ask of someone as simple minded as yourself to understand, but it would do some good if you did a little research before you come onto the NM and start blathering about issues you really know nothing about.

          • angelsinca says:

            The issues are fully understood. Duh. Please show proof that Bundy’s cattle destroyed that land. Also, please show proof that the actions by the BLM weren’t anything more than bureaucratic power play. The more you call people stupid, the dumbER you look. Again.

          • FredAppell says:

            My apologies for the “cow patties” incident. I own it and make no attempts to defend it. Now you know why I don’t visit conservative sites. I’m much more far left than most of the people on here in spite of appearances. Could you imagine the attacks I would receive on those sites for posting my opinion “ouch”.
            Your comment about where the reasonable ones sit is a bit inaccurate only because we all think we’re more reasonable than the next person, it’s a human flaw.
            Rest assured though, I won’t pull that little stunt again on you or anyone else, you have my guarantee. Thanks.

          • angelsinca says:

            Nah, Mark Forsyth owns it. It was rather witty and funny, not to mention inaccurate. You’re a decent and likable soul Fred. Thanks

          • ralphkr says:

            Oh, Mark, you are giving angelsinca far too much value. Cow patties are very useful as fuel but angelsinca is merely a chasm across the road to knowledge or static encountered in the broadcast of truth.

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            Yeah,I thought I detected a vacuum,or was that a black hole.

          • angelsinca says:

            What happened to your official attack dog? I think I hear barking in the distance.

          • angelsinca says:

            Cute as a fart Ralph.

          • angelsinca says:

            pffft

          • angelsinca says:

            Really, Forsyth.

          • Sand_Cat says:

            “Stewardship”? Most of those who use government land grotesquely abuse it, overgrazing far beyond what they would on private or their own land. The GOP, which has fought to lower use fees still further and remove what few limits there are on the abuse, then turns around and complains about the government’s poor management of the land.
            Is there nothing the GOP and racist extremists do that you won’t defend?

          • angelsinca says:

            Surely you can produce one lucid comment that doesn’t become another pedestrian rant about supposed GOP racism from your extremist vantage point, sand_box. By doing so, you are missing out on the latest war against Lies That Get Democrats Elected.

          • angelsinca says:

            Lowering use fees for the private public sounds like a swell idea. Especially since the BLM is collecting more than it spends. Unless revenue is its goal. It was nice when we could stop in at the Grand Canyon without paying for the privilege to visit it.

          • Allan Richardson says:

            The point of grazing fees is precisely to encourage stewardship instead of mutual destruction by the destruction of the “commons” (an economist’s term for resources that are inherently held by everyone and by no individual; this also includes the air, the oceans and rivers, the aquifers, the radio spectrum, etc.).

            If Bundy were allowed to graze his cattle on public land for free, then anyone else could do the same. But if anyone can, then too many will do so, and as a result, destroy the resource. There are two ways to prevent this “tragedy of the commons” in economics: either divide the land up and allow users to use only the land they have bought, or the land someone else has bought and offers to rent for a fee; or to have the entity representing all of us owners of the commons rent the land for a fee, limiting the total amount of use allowed in order to conserve it. As we have seen by actual numbers, the government charges about a tenth of what the private landowners in the West charge, and a fifth of what the State of Nevada charges.

          • angelsinca says:

            How much they charge isn’t the point. It’s they are flexing their bureauratic muscles unnecessarily to prove they are in control. Such as destroying Bundy’s livestock. Look, Bundy is wrong and the gun toters are wrong, Their misdeeds don’t make the governments actions anymore palatable. Hopefully this Bundy Incident will result in BETTER policy by the BLM that is friendlier to the people that rely on public lands for their livelihood, not to the bureaucrats that rely on authority to intimidate.

          • Mark Coonan says:

            Theft isn’t stewardship.

    • Dominick Vila says:

      I wonder often about the issues that dominate the media and public opinion, and whether or not it is part of a strategy to distract us from what is really happening and ensure we do not take effective steps to keep control of the Senate in the upcoming election.
      From Benghazi, to the IRS “scandal” involving Tea Party organizations caught lying in their application for tax exempt status, to morons like these two bozos, it all seems to be part of a well orchestrated strategy to keep us entertained while Karl Rove and the rest of the gang make sure their candidates are elected in November. If we don’t wake up soon, get control of the agenda, and put together an effective campaign to ensure our candidates are elected, the last two years of the Obama administration will be limited to welcoming visiting dignitaries.

      • Annemb says:

        You make valid points. For years now, especially more recently, I have wondered if the purpose of some t.v., cable “shows” are made to “entertain” and mesmerize / distract the electorate from what is really happening around them in our country and the world. I, myself, have no patience but I am irritated with these programs that are facades of phoniness and cover.

        So many – too many – don’t have a clue of what’s happening. I recently told a friend that we need to overturn Citizens United & McCutcheon. She didn’t know what I was talking about – so I explained it. She was surprised.

        Another friend didn’t agree with raising the minimum wage to $10.10 because it’s “too much.” I told her that it will be a gradual increase. She then agreed with the increase. However, $10.10 is nothing compared to the real need. My first job in 1952 paid me $.75 an hour. So, what’s a mere raise to $10.10 in 2014?

        • Independent1 says:

          Anne, next time you meet your friend, tell her that there are numerous states that already have minimum wages over $9/hour and that job creation in at least one of them, Washington State whose minimum wage is about $9.75, exceeds the national average and has a lower unemployment rate than the national average.

          Also, more than 600 economists have pooh poohed the notion that raising the minimum wage will have a big impact on jobs. There may be a slight drop initially but history has shown that raising the minimum wage does not result in losing jobs or reducing job creation; that’s just one more GOP fairytale.

          And one last point, the minimum wage in Europe is $12/hour, and the McDonald’s outlets in Europe are more profitable than their outlets in America. And I believe that’s because, more of McDonald’s customers can afford to order the more profitable items on their menu and don’t have to simply buy things off what was the $1 menu which were not very profitable; and that includes the McDonald’s workers themselves.

          Remember, Elizabeth Warren demonstrated that McDonald’s could afford to raise its employees wages to $10.10/hr by adding just 4 cents to the cost of ONE combo meal. And virtually every other business with a relatively large product base and customer turnover can do the same by only adding pennies to the price of a selected number of the items they sell. Businesses adamantly opposing the min wage are doing so not because they couldn’t afford it, it’s because they want to keep a labor force they can hire on the cheap.

          • Annemb says:

            Thanks so very much for going into detail to prove your point! I’ll be sure to keep them on hand for me to use when necessary.

            BTW, didn’t Seattle just raise their minimum wage to $15. an hour?

          • Independent1 says:

            The Seattle $15 min. wage is a bit complicated. People earning min wage for companies with 500 employees and more wouldn’t see the $15/hr till 2017. I was a little high on Washington min wage, it’s the highest in the nation now at $9.32. So it would progress up from there to $15 over the next 3 years at large companies. The min wage at smaller companies would phase in later. It’s not something that’s going to happen this year or next year. The plan has broad union and business support though.

          • Annemb says:

            Thanks again for clarifying.

      • Mark Forsyth says:

        I think it will be most important for campaigners to control the conversation,not sure exactly how they will do that but I believe it is crucial.

      • Mark Forsyth says:

        You don’t have to wonder about it Dominick,you ascertain their ploy correctly as it is a prime component in their well used “divide and conquer” strategy. They use it liberally and is their only use of liberality at all.

    • Jambi says:

      I agree…Bundy and his phoney Patriotic thugs love the word HATE and Hate the word HELP….what a waste of media time…

      • Annemb says:

        They tire me as nothing else in my entire life has. Personally, I no longer recognize the country I grew up in!

        But, we can’t give up! If we give up, we lose.

      • Independent1 says:

        Jambi, what they really love is a free ride. Apparently they’re not even willing to pay the modest charge the BLM has set up for grazing cattle on public land which is a fraction of what they’d pay to any other landowner. The cattlemen involved with Bundy are just a punch of cheapskates who are upset because the Feds won’t let them graze their cattle for free and whenever they want for as long as they want.

    • idamag says:

      That press is going to expose those terrorists.

      • Annemb says:

        I appreciate what you wrote.

        I wonder, though, if the Press REALLY would expose them. The Press doesn’t do investigative reporting as they once used to.

        • idamag says:

          That is true. Real Journalists must be a dying breed. Life Magazine brought an end to lynching and Jim Crow Laws by exposing what was happening. It is a sorry thing when news reporting has been replaced by commentators with little or no experience in investigating those comments.

          • Annemb says:

            Wise words indeed. Today the media is corporate owned … and they all [usually] say the same thing. So what we get is repetition – nothing of substance. I also wonder if reporters are afraid to tell the truth — they are told what to focus on or they might be fired…It’s indeed a sad day, and not good for a democracy, although we are now an oligarchy. I don’t know, idamag, I don’t know, but I do think about it.

            Blessings… and thanks.

  3. ps0rjl says:

    Cliven Bundy can see where the poor are now living off government subsidies but he sees himself as some patriot standing up to the government even though he was using the government land to feed his cattle and wasn’t even paying for that right for twenty years. Basically the government subsidizes ranchers by allowing them to use government ground. True they charge a grazing fee but using the land is still subsidizing their cattle ranching. The man is no patriot. He is a hypocrite and thief.

    • Independent1 says:

      Unfortunately, Bundy’s a lot more than a thief, he borders on being a terrorist. See these excerpts from a DailyKos article on how Bundy’s standoff with the government really went:

      Within the past few days, local 8 News NOW received Police Reports and other information that show Bundy’s Anti-American, Anti-Government thugs:

      – “poured lighter fluid around” news trucks,
      – Issued “bomb threats” against Hotels where Federal employees were lodging,
      – told hotel staff they would be “dragged out in the parking lot and shot”
      – Bundy thugs asked Metro Police Sgt Jenkins if “he was ready to die”

      SHERIFF LOMARDO: “We were outgunned, outmanned and there would not have been a good result from it.”

      As is the case with many terrorist organizations who hold people hostage at gun point, terrorist leader Cliven Bundy issued “demands” to the United States government in exchange for releasing law enforcement from gun point and threats.

      Cliven Bundy gave the US Government one hour to meet his demands and if the Government did not meet his demands his thugs would continue to terrorize law enforcement, federal employees, News crews and hotel staff.

      Here’s the link to the full DailyKos article:

      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/02/1296373/-Bundy-Thugs-Poured-Lighter-Fluid-Around-Media-Trucks-Issued-Bomb-Threats?detail=email

      • idamag says:

        Anyone can watch that film and see exactly what he is. Do we really want out country to become a “mob rule” country.

        • FredAppell says:

          Great point. That’s why we have representative government instead of a true Democracy. The founders believed that absolute Democracy would in essence be “mob rule”.

      • Sand_Cat says:

        Why isn’t the man in custody, at least, if not in a penitentiary? GOP presidents believe in cheating the government, but how did this man get through years of Democratic control? This is yet another reason why the Republicans and their lunatic supporters have zero respect for the government, especially when it’s run by Democrats.

        • Independent1 says:

          Sandy, it’s really complicated and has been going on for decades. Here’s a little flavor of how it was going back in the 1990s:

          March 18, 1996: The federal government, which owns 87 percent of the land in Nevada, is still worried about potential violence if they try to remove illegally grazing cattle from protected land. Two more pipebombs had exploded in Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management offices in the past two years. The Justice Department has 12 lawsuits pending against Nevada cattle ranchers. A federal court in the state struck down the Nye County ordinance that caused trouble the year before. Not that ranchers took that as reason to stand down, however. One local resident told USA Today,”A single district court decision in one district doesn’t settle it. It’s just a single day in the year of a revolutionary war. We’re going to continue on with the fight.” Bundy is also continuing to graze on federal lands. “I’m still saying the state of Nevada owns that land, and the federal government has been an encroacher. I’m not moving my cattle. We have … rights.”

          Bundy states that his rights derive from the fact his Mormon ancestors were using the land far before the federal government claimed authority over it. One Elko County rancher, Cliff Gardner, has decided to take his case to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, arguing that states’ rights mean the federal government has no authority over the land where his cattle graze.

          If you’re really interested in the long winded history, here’s the link to more than you wanted to know about Cliven Bundy:

          http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

    • idamag says:

      And a terrorist.

  4. Mark Forsyth says:

    Bundy is little more than just another shit kicking,redneck son of a bitch.He has been poking cows so long that it has destroyed the one brain cell he had.

    • Independent1 says:

      That could be true, but he and his little band of thugs called a militia also border on being terrorists. See this:

      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/02/1296373/-Bundy-Thugs-Poured-Lighter-Fluid-Around-Media-Trucks-Issued-Bomb-Threats?detail=email

      • Mark Forsyth says:

        Thanks Indy,I saw the article earlier this morning as the dailykos was the first email I received.And to think that so many folks consider major media to be too liberal.I never saw a bit of this little scenario on the nightly news.

      • FredAppell says:

        Now that’s scary. I can’t help but wonder if his lack or oratory skills were due to nerves or if he really does sound that ignorant. Personally, I wouldn’t let this guy anywhere near a microphone but his followers seem to hang on his every word. It sure doesn’t say much for the collective I.Q. of that bunch but that’s also what makes them so dangerous.

        • Mark Forsyth says:

          I’m not knocking the South but when I lived down there I used to encounter that type frequently.Now that I live in the North again,I know that southern states have no monopoly on ignorance.If it would stay in one place it would be easier to wipe out.

  5. jointerjohn says:

    If this crowd truly believes that SNAP cards, subsidized housing, etc. are forms of slavery, why are they not also condemning church charities, homeless shelters and food pantries? Slavery is the process of withholding basic food and shelter from a person to force them into one’s service, not the unconditional offering of it.
    The answer of course is quite simple. Once again and now on a habitual basis, the American right-wing uses projection to belittle its opposition and does so without s single shred of sincerity.

    • idamag says:

      And they never complain about the big takers.

      • jointerjohn says:

        In their twisted view of the world there are no big takers, only those at the bottom are selfish, lazy, slothful and a drain on society. They call the wealthy “job creators”. Then they have the audacity to accuse us of engaging in class warfare when we call for a progressive tax system. They worship the wealthy, no matter how immoral they may be, while they revile the poor no matter how blameless they may be. After all that they claim to be the party of “values”. The only value they respect is denoted by $.

    • Annemb says:

      In Maine, LePage wants the Food Stamp cards to have photo IDs. I understand this is against federal law, but knowing him, he doesn’t give a damn about any law – it’s “my way or the highway” with him. We’re working hard to get him out of office this November!

  6. Canistercook says:

    Perhaps Clive Bundy used poorly chosen words but perhaps even he can see that the future of our country may be not rosy if we continue to grow the single parent population and the number of people on government subsidies of some type, Affirmative Action should mean that we will not discriminate for or against ANY individual due to their race, religion or background but judge them by their honesty, integrity and abilities.

  7. FredAppell says:

    Bundy has it all wrong it isn’t entitlements that enslave people, it’s corruption at every level of government and finance that enslave people when they are forced to seek help outside the private sector. Even then, it isn’t easy to receive help unless people meet the criteria. There is a minimum standard in place that determines how much help, what kind of help if any at all. I know this because I have family members who meet the requirements, and they all work for a measly wage. Their not moochers nor unmotivated, they’re having a hard time getting by due through no fault of their own. Oh, and we’re white and pay our taxes.
    It’s very easy to denounce right-wing stereo-types with facts but convincing right-wingers of this is damn near impossible.

    • idamag says:

      And that corrupt terrorist is walking around with a sense of entitlement to that which is not his.

      • FredAppell says:

        I made that very point the first time the memo ran a story on that windbag. I don’t thing all conservatives agree with his entitlement, he’s an anarchist, not a conservative. He’s as far right on the spectrum as one could be. I’m not defending conservatives but I can’t lump them all into his kind of crazy.

        • idamag says:

          Definitely. Crazy people are born all the time. I didn’t think the appearance of hitler was strange. Everyone knows someone who is over the edge. What I couldn’t understand is how people looked up to him and followed him. Bundy, like any maniac, has appeared on the scene. I don’t understand people following him.

          • FredAppell says:

            It isn’t such a stretch when you consider a couple of things.
            1) We all tend to gravitate towards like minded people, it’s tribal thinking and we’re all hardwired that way for survival.
            2) It’s an expansive and very rural part of the country where people live far from government by choice, they want to live by their own code.

            I guess Hitler was charismatic although I have recently learned that not as many Germans were as enthralled with him as history has led us to believe, it wasn’t just the Jews. Much of what we saw in news reels was painstakingly staged and choreographed. Anyone who didn’t participate had the Gestapo to deal with.
            Bundy has none of the traits of a charismatic leader but he possesses a strong defiance to authority that endears him to some Americans.

        • Independent1 says:

          Yeah! Maybe not with these crazies, but how about the crazies in North Carolina? Have you watched the Rachel Maddow special on how the GOP is doing an imitation of when Hitler overtook Germany?? If not, watch for 11 minutes and let me know if you don’t get the feeling the GOP has taken NC back to the 1930s:

          http://thebigslice2013.org/how-hard-is-it-going-to-be-to-vote-in-north-carolina-let-rachel-maddow-show-you-video/

          • FredAppell says:

            Thank you for the link. I do see a troubling parallel between Governor McCrory and Hitler’s tactics. I admit, at first I was surprised that there was no equivalent to Hitler’s Brown Shirts to intimidate the protesters until Rachel had mentioned the hundreds of arrests. I didn’t hear mentioned whether or not the protesters had secured a permit to assemble, not that one would have been issued anyway but if they didn’t
            than that could have led to the justification for the arrests. That being said, you and I both know that it was politically motivated and not due to some oversight of the law.

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            I’m kinda late getting to this specific comment Indy,but I thought I would offer a response that might be of interest to you.
            Koch Bros., who as you know are related to the infamous husband and wife Nazi Commandants of the Buchenwald Death Camp, helped fund efforts to undo a model diversity policy in the Wake County,N.C. school system,effectively resegregating the district – part of a larger campaign to weaken the public school system and pave the way for widespread privatization.Meanwhile,there is Art Pope,a millionaire,who created and underwrites the Civitas Institute.He now is N.C. Governor Pat McCrory’s budget director and has authored some of the most extreme anti civil rights legislation since the dawn of that movement.Civitas Action is known for running virulent attack ads,often disengaged from fact, against Democrats.
            Clearly,North Carolina is a battleground between the forces of ignorance,hate,and suppression and those of progress,civil rights,and Democracy.

          • Independent1 says:

            Thanks for the info!! I guess all we can do is hope that at some point in time the people in NC will wake up to how they’re being misled by the GOP on so many things that impact their lives: like global warming, Obamacare, Medicaid expansion, voter suppression, etc. etc.

          • Mark Forsyth says:

            One thing down there that is encouraging are the Moral Monday protests.Moral Monday was founded by Disciples of Christ minister William Barber and has grown exponentially since he was elected president of the N.C. NAACP in 2005 and began building a multi-racial coalition.
            My sister lives in Chapel Hill and often gives me updates on the Moral Monday thing.She says that there is a lot of room for hope,not only from the M.M. group but she also cites major communities around the state including Asheville and others with large populations of people with progressive attitudes.So we might say that all is not lost in the Tar Heel State.

  8. Mortalc01l says:

    Bundy’s just another right-wing taker, who is too dumb to see that he’s not only on welfare, but he is refusing to pay his taxes. He’s EXACTLY what the Republicans CLAIM they hate; a moocher, who is worth millions of dollars, but refuses to pay his legal obligations in terms of his grazing fees.

    He is in essence stealing from us; Ronald Reagan was the one who is responsible for the BLM grazing program and Bundy probably worships Reagan.

    Every other rancher who uses those lands is paying the absurdly preferential fees for their grazing, why not Mr. Bundy? Mr. Bundy is an entitled, spoiled brat who refuses to see that HE is the problem here; a millionaire moocher of epic proportions, a cheapskate welcher who wants for free, what everyone else pays for…. the very definition of a welfare recipient, only instead of a few hundred buck a month, he’s bilking us out of THOUSANDS and MILLIONS.!!

  9. Allan Richardson says:

    This is a replay of Shay’s rebellion and the Whisky rebellions, the latter having been quashed by forces of President George Washington. These idiots claim to admire the “Founding Fathers” but they are acting exactly like the malcontents who forced those Founding Fathers to get tough.

    Still, the government strategy could use some tuning: instead of showing up with guns to collect the cattle, simply hold the “foreclosure” sale in absentia and transfer the title to the buyer. Then the buyer will have to invoke the County Sheriff to serve notice and seize them. Since these folks have CLAIMED they recognize the legitimacy of county sheriffs and their own state governments, just not the federal government, would they shoot at the deputy sheriffs and state National Guard troops (the “constitutional militia” they claim to respect)? If they do, and those police or troops shoot back, the federal government has nothing to do with it. And besides, the PRIVATE buyers who would then be the legal owners of those cattle will put pressure on Fox and other supporters of these anarchists (that is actually what they are, anarchists living off the public dole) to quit supporting them or risk a lawsuit for interfering with peaceful transfer of property.

  10. Joann Roxbury says:

    Although it can be humiliating, civilization’s preservation and advance, along with our own personal preservation and advance, depend upon learning from our inevitable accidents.

  11. commserver says:

    Bundy and conservative politicians are forgetful of the fact that there are many whites who are getting some type of support.

    How about farmers who get subsidized to grow nothing? Is Bundy one of those?

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