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Friday, October 21, 2016

The very first bill being rammed through the Florida House of Representatives this year would allow guns to be carried on college campuses.

This screwball idea comes from Rep. Greg Steube, a young Republican from Sarasota. Remember his name in case he’s ever daft enough to run for statewide office.

In the macho comic-book world where Steube’s imagination dwells, armed college kids will stand ready to whip their pistols out of their book bags and shoot down crazed campus intruders with flawless aim.

This delusion has been nurtured by the National Rifle Association, which owns so many stooges in the Legislature that a dozen others would have been thrilled to introduce the campus gun bill, if Steube had balked.

Florida is currently one of 20 states that prohibit concealed weapons on university property, the wisdom being that firearms don’t belong in college classrooms, football stadiums or booze-soaked frat houses.

Most of the remaining states allow universities and colleges to decide their own firearms policies, and — no surprise — the vast majority of institutions don’t allow anyone but police officers to carry guns on campus.

Seven states do, thanks to the NRA. Florida is next on its list.

If Steube’s bill passes, it would open the way for firearms to be carried at private colleges as well as public universities, although each private school would be able to implement its own weapons ban.

Steube said he was working on his guns-at-college bill before the Nov. 20 shooting at Florida State University, where a mentally disturbed alumnus named Myron May shot and wounded two students and an employee at the school library.

Police arrived within minutes and killed May. Steube has speculated that an armed undergrad might have been able to drop him even quicker.

Or missed the shot completely and hit a bystander by mistake, which sometimes happens even when experienced police officers are pulling the triggers.

“School safety has always been the paramount issue I’ve dealt with,” said Steube, dead serious.

He’s eager to point out that only students with concealed-weapons permits would be allowed to pack heat. “These are 21-year-old adults who have gone through background checks, who have gone through training, who do not have a criminal record.”

Well, that certainly should reassure all worried parents, because 21 is the age of instant responsibility and maturity. Binge drinking, all-night partying, fighting — all that magically ends on a person’s 21st birthday, right?

And just because they lose their car keys now and then doesn’t mean they’d ever misplace a loaded Glock, or leave it out where their roommate could take it. You might wonder if Steube has ever set foot on a college campus. In fact, he has.

He graduated from the University of Florida, and stayed to get a law degree. During all that time in Gainesville he must have encountered at least a few fellow students who were unstable, angry, depressed, or battling drug and alcohol abuse.

In other words, troubled young men and women who shouldn’t be sitting in a classroom (or anywhere else) with a loaded weapon.

This would be a nightmare scenario for families who’ve sent their kids off to college believing they’ll be safe, at least while they’ve got a book in their hands. It’s also a nightmare scenario for teachers and professors, who’d be left to assume that every student in every class is armed. Would you give any grade except an A+ to a sophomore with a semiautomatic?

Most student and faculty groups are appalled by Steube’s campus gun bill, for good reason. It’s a recipe for another bloodbath.

A House subcommittee endorsed the measure last week, each Republican on the panel voting yea under the hawkish eye of the NRA. Luckily, there are more sane and cautious voices in the Florida Senate, where a similar piece of nutball legislation was snuffed four years ago.

At that time, John Thrasher, an influential Republican senator, opposed the push to put guns on college grounds. He had a friend whose daughter had been tragically killed in an accidental shooting at FSU.

Although Thrasher left the Senate last fall, he still has powerful friends in that chamber who pay attention to his opinion.

And they should, because Thrasher is now president of FSU. He started on the job 11 days before Myron May went to the library and started shooting.

The rampage didn’t change Thrasher’s mind about the danger of arming students. That’s because he lives in the real world, not the Bruce Willis fantasy inhabited by Steube and his reckless cohorts in the House.

Carl Hiaasen is a columnist for the Miami Herald. Readers may write to him at: 1 Herald Plaza, Miami, Fla., 33132.

Photo: kcdsTM via Flickr

  • FireBaron

    Back in the day of anti-war student protests, there was a damn good reason they did not allow us to have guns on campus. The fear was some pro- or anti-war zealot would take a gun out and start shooting at the other side.

    • Gary Miles

      That’s a great point.

      • Sand_Cat


        • Gary Miles


          • Dave

            I can tell that you are from the eastern side of Pennsylvania. I grew up on the western side near Pittsburgh and we say Jagoff instead Jackoff.

          • Gary Miles

            Yes, Pittsburghers have a unique dialect. A cross between Hungarian/Italian and Polish. I can always tell when I’m talking to one. I actually like the Pittsburgh dialect, it is quite special and I know of nowhere else in the world that has it.

          • Dave

            We moved out of “Da Burgh” ten years ago. We live in Winchester VA now, we have a lot of people down here from “Da Burgh” that have moved out of “Da Burgh” because of the lack of work in “Da Burgh”. When we go to the local grocery store and ask for “Chipped chopped ham” for our lunch meats they give us the strangest look, like what the hell are you talking about. I tell then it’s for my “sammitches” for lunch. My Grand Father worked in the “Da Stillmill” for thirty years it was in the “uptahn” part of “Da Burgh”, on Sundays we would always watch “Da Stillers” play football. My Mother would always yell at my brother and me by saying are “Yunz” doing outside playing in the dirt again and tell us to get in the tub and “worsh up”.

          • Gary Miles

            Went from Youngstown to Hampton Va (Langley AFB) in the early 80’s. They thought I was strange too calling “pop” pop instead of “soda”. I’m way North of Da Burgh, just 40 miles or so from NY border. A lot of weekenders from down there have camps around here, so we get lots of Pittsburghers around the area all summer and during rifle season (deer). Used to travel through Winchester often driving back and forth, Rt 17 was a great way around DC.

          • Dave

            Back in the 90’s I did some hunting in Marienville at a friend cabin, and just a little south of their in cook’s forest at another’s friends cabin. Are you familiar with that area?

          • Gary Miles

            Very familiar. I live near Tionesta. Marienville is about a 30 minute drive, Cook Forest about the same. Spent my childhood vacationing up here. Current residence we built from ground up and it borders 10K acres of lumber company land (managed by State Game Commission). Lot’s of Amish locally. Peaceful place to live. Right now it’s chilly, a crisp 6 degrees, up from 2 degrees.

          • Dave

            When my Wife and I were dating, we would go to cooks forest to get away and relax and have some fun on the weekends. We would go horseback riding and miniature golfing and some shopping at the local stores. The local businesses loved it when Hunting season would come in, they double their sales in two or three months time. Yes, it is a very peaceful place with some very good people. If you ever see a camp that has the name Camp Coffee is on, stop in, they are some good people and love to hunt and fish and tell some stories on how we all missed the BIG twelve point monster trophy buck with a 19.5 inch spread and weighed 250/ 300 pounds…LOL… With the temps in the 2 to 6 degrees, I hope that you and your family (yunz) stay warm.

          • Sand_Cat

            Sorry, but this intellectual discussion is just too much for me.

          • hicusdicus

            I can tell by the descriptive words you use.

        • idamag

          Am study came out, and printed in our newspaper: When you are faced with danger, the animal instincts to flee or fight kick in. During those few seconds your cognitive brain is not functioning. A letter, from a Seth Grover, appeared in our newspaper saying those seconds justified carrying a loaded gun with the safety off. First, this is Idaho. There isn’t a lot of violent crime. Judging from the newspaper, we are a bunch of drunks and druggies. Second, how many shots can a person get off before his brain kicks in? Recent example: the woman, in Hayden, Idaho, whose kid takes out her loaded gun with the safety off and shoots her. That bullet might have struck an innocent person in the store.

          • johninPCFL

            The bullet DID strike and kill an innocent.
            In the two weeks just past there have been at least two occurrences of children getting their parents loaded weapons and killing themselves or their siblings.

          • idamag

            Yesterday, a five year old shot his nine month old brother.

          • Dave

            Maybe we should have our schools work with the NRA to teach the kids firearm safety. The NRA have a program that’s called Eddie the Eagle gun safety program,it works with the little ones on what to do if they see a firearm.


    • Moshulu

      Can you imagine Kent State university would have turned out a little different than just the students getting killed by the National Guard if many of the students were armed?

      • Sand_Cat

        Yeah, probably 15-20, or maybe 100, would have died instead of 4.

        • idamag

          And you can bet, the students with guns, would have been jailed and maybe given the death penalty back then.

    • hicusdicus

      You have to be joking. Allow? If some one decides to shoot or bludgeon someone they sure are not going to get in a quandary about it being allowed.

  • Gary Miles

    My position is simple. If a person can get a license and can legally carry concealed, it should be allowed on ALL public property. I actually don’t think it will be a major problem for colleges, as the most likely to bother with getting a license at all are those who likely have a long history with firearms. The #1 reason to allow conceal carry on college campuses isn’t because of the far and few nut cases, but rather for women to protect themselves against rape. This appears to be a big issue with many on the Left, considering how some choose to lie about campus rape to bring attention to it. Want to stop rape on college campuses, empower women with the resources to defend themselves. Just the THOUGHT that a women may be armed could stop a great number of these attacks without the weapon even being drawn.

    • stcroixcarp

      The best way to protect women from rape is to raise your sons to be decent human beings who are in control of their beans and weinies at all times. Rape is caused by men. Men need to take responsibility for ending it. Promoting guns on college campuses is really not a good or sane idea. Mixing booze, raging hormones and guns…what could possibly go wrong?

      • Gary Miles

        Spare me the fear mongering. It didn’t come true in the past and not likely to come true in the future. I find it insane that those of you on the left don’t think people can be responsible, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

        • Sand_Cat

          YOU accuse someone else of fear-mongering? That’s rich.

          • idamag

            We have a host of belligerent, scared people, who used to be armed against home invasions and now they are armed against everybody. You talk about fear mongering. There is a good reason, not all of us, think everyone, who owns a gun is responsible. Aurora, Colorado, Sandy Hook, and Hayden, Idaho.

          • Gary Miles

            Shows your thinking skills, the Sandy Hook shooter was not the gun owner.

          • Sand_Cat

            No, but his mother was, moron. What the hell difference does that make. Your reply is totally unrelated to his post, anyway.

          • hicusdicus

            Their you go again, calling people unrelated names. Try and expand your vocabulary.

      • hicusdicus

        The first order of the day would be to remove their nut sack.

        • stcroixcarp

          It worked on the dog.

          • hicusdicus

            Do think it would work on liberals? Naaaa! they would still try and screw everybody.

    • Sand_Cat

      Your 3rd sentence is a bit too long: it should have ended after “I actually don’t think.”

      • idamag

        I have to agree.

      • Gary Miles

        Another brainless zombie from the Left with no critical thinking skills pretending to be wise. Then drags along another mental midget with it.

        • Sand_Cat

          You just don’t have the brains to write a rational and coherent reply, idiot.

          • Gary Miles

            Had YOU started our interaction in a respectful manner, you would have gotten the same in return, YOU didn’t. So, you got right back what you gave to begin with. Maybe you should try and be more polite to people, you might learn something.

          • Dave

            You have got to stop eating the biscuits in the litter box. They are not treats, They are rotting your brain.

          • hicusdicus

            Using the word idiot implies you don’t have a good grasp of the English language.

    • Insinnergy

      Or it could encourage would-be rapists to bring their own guns.

      Also many rapes happen when one or both individuals are drunk. Throwing guns into that mix would seem exceptionally dangerous, even for those with concealed carry permits and a long history with firearms. Impaired reasoning, reduced motor functions and access to a gun in your purse is likely to end poorly.

      Also unlikely to help with ‘date rape’ or stupification. Both substantial contributors.

      I appreciate your point and the idea of additional protections against rape being important. Certainly if I was female on a college campus I’d want to carry something (but most likely a stun gun just in case I screwed up). But the potential for outright disaster seems very high here. And with guns, if people screw up or make bad choices, they’re dead. No coming back.

      Is there a way to allow carrying, but manage to keep additional risk either minimal or zero, that you can suggest? I notice you seem to give well thought out answers, previously.
      I’d tend to lean towards banning all weapons, and working on a culture shift, punishments, and shaming of perpetrators as a less dangerous long term solution.
      However that obviously does not address the dangers right now.

      • Gary Miles

        Thanks for the questions. Let’s put things into perspective so I can better answer your questions, first let’s review your text ” But the potential for outright disaster seems very high here. And with guns, if people screw up or make bad choices, they’re dead. No coming back.” While technically correct, the reality doesn’t support the fear and statistics prove so. Most people who carry concealed are responsible adults who take the time to educate themselves. Basically, your “fear mongering” statement (not meant as a personal attack) is nothing more than what you have always read or heard, despite the factual evidence that is quite the opposite.

        Is there a way to allow carrying, but manage to keep additional risk either minimal or zero, that you can suggest? This is a good question, because it can be applied to most things we all do daily, without considering the risk. On a daily basis, we get in our cars and trucks and drive off to our desired location, not thinking that far more people are killed daily in car accidents than are killed in any other accidental way. Yet, many worry about the law abiding citizen with a holstered gun. That same person has a far greater chance at killing someone with his car than his gun. I equate the fear of terrorism much the same way, as a person is more likely to be killed by a bee sting than by a terrorist within our borders each year. Yet, the media promotes the terrorist, not the bee.

        You feel this ” I’d tend to lean towards banning all weapons,”. History, when understood, will always predict the future. In the 20th Century alone, governments who have banned guns have managed to kill close to 60 million of their own people, because they couldn’t defend themselves. Today is the 70th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp. The lead up to rounding up the Jews in Germany began with gun registration, followed by complete gun control (because they knew who had the guns, it was easy), followed by the holocaust. Stalin, Mao, and others have always enacted gun control, to eventually control and kill it’s citizens. One of the vents that led to our Revolution was the British wanted to disarm the Colonist’s, which led to our 2nd Amendment being part of the Bill of Rights.

        Denying the basic right of equal self defense is agreeing to slavery. I would suggest you think very hard about your inner thoughts. PEACE!

  • todoblue

    Carl Hiaasen,what you say is true,but the way you write?,I’m laughing man,thanks



    Once upon a time two presidential candidates saddled out to Iowa to enter the 2016 presidential race. And, the Iowans told them to get the hell out and sent them both home. Now what do Romney and Bush think about those apples?

  • idamag

    OMG does that make Idaho worse than Florida? How we have dropped. Against the wishes of all our college administrators, our dipped-ins legislators heeded the NRA and that has already passed in Idaho Idaho, the state where people carry loaded guns with the safety off in Walmart.

    • hicusdicus

      Safety off< I don't own a handgun that needs a safety. Safety's are dangerous.

  • Gary Miles

    NUGENT: I think if a person creates an environment where sheeple can be led to gas chambers, I don’t think the term subhuman mongrel is too outrageous. I don’t know if there is any English term, or any term available to mankind to adequately describe the depth of evil to a human who would deny good from winning over evil and with the insanity of our government, the insanity and the abuse of power, the runaway corruption deceit and dishonesty coming out of Barack Obama and Eric Holder and Hillary Clinton and Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi and the left, they really believe that they can take our tax dollars and hire machine gun-toting security guards while dictating unarmed helplessness to their employers. Can you think of a word that could be offensive enough to describe someone who takes your money to hire security people while passing laws denying you the right to be secure? So subhuman mongrel was probably much too delicate.

  • Gary Miles
    Law abiding gun owners on campus are not a problem, except for the whiny Left Wing sissy’s who are afraid of them.

    • johninPCFL

      Do they have to buy insurance policies to cover the medical costs of innocents they shoot during a confrontation? Are they exempt from charges should one of their drunken frat mates shoot himself or others?

      • Gary Miles

        You will be happy to know that students on college campuses permitted to carry concealed also fall under Pa laws concerning liability, accidents, etc. No insurance is a legal requirement in the State of Pa, nor on college campuses. Frankly, the idea is retarded when it comes to insurance, as there is not enough accidents to warrant a market for such insurance (the idea is coming from gun grabbing organizations, which would be unconstitutional anyway).

        I did do some research on colleges and their crime stats, which are required by Federal law to be reported and made public. Although CCP’s require some effort to get for college campuses, it’s nice to know there have been no accidents since the laws changed in 2012. Two significant changes were in robberies and sex offenses. Penn U. had 142 reported robberies in 2012, after law took affect, Penn reported only 9 in 2013. Kutztown U. reported 12 sex offenses in 2012, in 2013 that number was reported at 5. Crime rates were consistent with all 6 colleges I researched, including 1 private college where no guns were allowed at all, Robberies were down and sex offenses also were cut in half.

        Let me repeat, NO ACCIDENTS were reported in 2013 or 2014 involving legally owned/carried weapons. Sorry, but the Wild West/everybody will have an accident is all just gun grabber BS and fear mongering. Sorry to report, Obama is the best gun salesman ever and crime is dropping. All the Left Wing anti-gun BS is just that bullshit.

        • johninPCFL

          Good to know. All prognostications about future events are just guesses, whether good or bad. Happy that no colleges have had a blow-up.
          WRT insurance, it’s often the rare events that policies are written to cover. It surprises me that no colleges in CC areas require some added coverage, like MedPay on a car policy. Take a look at USCCA, which offers coverage for you in the event you’re involved in a shooting (as well as training, and a good ezine.)

          • Gary Miles

            Actually, I have insurance for such an event. Cheap and not likely to ever be needed were I live, but better safe than sorry. As far as training, well, I was a Combat Arms Technician in the USAF from 84 to 95. I trained USAF police and all members eligible for deployment in weapons safety, marksmanship and field strip/care and cleaning on 17 different weapons.. I help everyone I know learn to shoot straight and be safe. I also take any young person visiting, teach them weapon safety and teach them to shoot (usually a .22 rifle).

            I believe in training and practice. Here in Pa, most kids learn at an early age, at least outside the big cities. Young hunters must go through a safety course (which I have attended with several cousins, just to be there for them and help). Still, it takes personal responsibility.

          • johninPCFL

            Excellent! The training (or practice) part of the equation is what’s missing in most CCs that I’ve run into. Here, the instruction “only shoot at the target” comprises all of the weapons’ handling and safety requirements needed for the CC course. Most of the CC course time is spent analyzing the laws: what to say to avoid arrest.
            Once they have the license, the common sense and safety requirements for “personal responsibility” evaporate, and here you have the road rage shootings while claiming “fear for life”.
            Killers in FL don’t drink and run down their targets anymore. DUI death was common in the 1960s and usually netted a year’s jail time. Today the killer (now usually a gang member) finds their target in a bar and starts a fight. When they start to lose, they shoot “in fear for their life”. The defense has been successfully used over a dozen times in the last eight years.

          • Gary Miles

            Your Fla self defense laws are quite well known since the Zimmerman case. I have read about the gang bangers using the law in their favor as well. That’s Florida and it’s up to Floridians to fix the problems with the law. We have a Castle/Stand your Ground Law in Pa as well. My father and I went to a seminar last Spring that had the local Sheriff’s and Prosecutors who ran the hour long info program then answered questions for an hour. It was free and standing room only (they did another one in the Fall because of the response). Very informative and explained the laws quite clearly. Not surprisingly, most attendees were vets and the elderly. It was sponsored by our local State level HoR and Senator, who were both on hand and were mostly silent, except for the beginning.

            Education is vital, and it shows where I live, very little crime. I have not heard of innocent bystanders being victims of errant shots by gun carriers in any news forum in recent memory, I have heard of that occurring at the hands of the NYPD no long ago. There will always be accidents, but, there are deadly car accidents everyday as well, and driving is not a right, gun ownership is (unless your a certified nutcase or felon, which should change to a certain type of felon).

          • johninPCFL

            We have Marion Hammer from the NRA running gun policy here, so it’s unlikely that FL laws will change in the next decades. We have the best legislature money can buy!
            As far as felons/nutcases, they can buy all they want at Virginia and Arizona gun shows. Fake IDs are acceptable if accompanied by cash.
            Like you, I go to a CC program every 3-4 years to stay up on the changes, and like I said, the last one was a huge disappointment from the handling and safety perspectives. Most of the course was made up of what to say to the first responders, when to invoke the right to counsel, etc.

          • hicusdicus

            I don’t understand the liberals and their gun show objections. If somebody who wants a gun and can’t have one, all they need is to scour the want ads.The last few gun shows I have been to were mostly FFL dealers. The misinformation people have in their head about the right of lethal self defense is mind boggling.

          • johninPCFL

            Sure. Because everybody still gets a daily paper, right? (BTW here the gun and ammo ads posted (and printed) are pulled before the next printing.)
            But EVERYBODY knows that they sell guns at gun shows, right? So now it’s just a matter of figuring out how to make sure your FELONY CONVICTION doesn’t keep you from getting your gun. Well, VA and AZ have taken care of that for you. Buy your gun today and shoot your inlaws tonight!

          • hicusdicus

            Not here they are not. How do you know they are pulled? Do you even know what an FFL is? Do you know anything not related to your bias? Why are you so frightened of guns? Guns don’t kill, bullets do. Do you have some deep seated hatred for your in-laws?. Do you understand much of anything about the world you live in? Do you wear panties or a jockey strap? Oh! my mistake, to wear a jock strap you need to have balls.

          • johninPCFL

            What are you, eight years old?
            Come back when you grow up.

          • hicusdicus

            I will come back When you quit making senseless comments about things you are bias about and stop talking like a teenage girl who thinks a camel-toe has something to do with a dromedary. Your comments are strange and witless. As you are not eight years old, you could try to be a lot more entertaining..

      • Gary Miles

        If your in Panama City, had a great vacation there in 1988. Great fishing and very nice people. Wonderful place to visit.

        • johninPCFL

          TYVM. I’m in Pinellas County, further down the gulf coast.
          We have a couple of timeshares and vacationed on Panama City Beach this past summer. Visited the “Grand Canyon of Georgia” and hit PCB, TopSail Beach, and the Florida Caverns on the return trip.
          But – and I hesitate to say it – I still like Memphis better. There’s almost nothing like Beale Street at 2AM, especially after BB King’s (or Pig on Beale) ribs and a couple of Attitude Adjustments (a grain-alcohol smoothie) at Wet Willies.

          • Gary Miles

            One of my favorite places was Panama City, Panama! Talk about a party place on Saturday nights (their weekend is Sunday, most work 6 days a week). Then on Sunday, the local beach near Howard AFB was always packed. The open air bars on the beach were a blast. Fun days for 15 months, it was great to be single too!

          • johninPCFL

            Worked in lots of places around the world: Liberia, South Africa, Sweden, Japan, Taiwan, China…I always had a pretty good time, but never really wanted to go back later. Maybe I developed a work allergy?
            I was tossed out of Canada once. I decided not to wait for the elevator at the restaurant in the Skylon Tower and took the stairs down. It’s a LOT of stairs. Turns out, it’s also a pretty poorly marked fire escape and the door alarm rings up the constables.

          • Gary Miles

            Been to 17 foreign countries. Did Gulf war 1 in Saudi, no desire to go back there, ever. Most places were nice to visit, wouldn’t want to live there though, I like this country, despite it’s flaws. My passion is hunting whitetail deer and having a blast living that. This time of year stinks, quite boring. Can’t wait for Spring!

          • johninPCFL

            Yeah, I’ve been watching the weather through northern PA and western New York. Doesn’t look like much fun. Never had the desire to play in the snow.
            Stay warm and safe.

          • Gary Miles

            There is nothing more peaceful than hunting in fresh snow. I’ve watched mink in there winter white coats for hours, just amazed at the incredible color, like they glow white on top of the snow. Felt the wing tips of an owl this year in a tree stand, he landed just 5 feet away, never knew I was there. I’m always at awe over what I see when out in the woods, or sometimes out my windows. Killing is an afterthought, but quite successful and have plenty of venison in the freezer.

      • idamag

        I have to have liability insurance on my car.

      • plc97477

        That would be one way of getting some sanity in our gun problem. Everyone with a gun needs to have insurance in case they hurt someone mistakenly.

        • hicusdicus

          I already have that insurance. I also have funeral insurance if I get attacked and killed if I don’t have my gun.

      • hicusdicus

        You are what if, fabricating again.

        • johninPCFL

          Personally, I’m of a mindset to just let the chips fall and have a few multi-million dollar settlements cure the problem. Social Darwinism suggests that the first to fall will be the stupid ones, so it wouldn’t be a big loss.

          • hicusdicus

            You are correct in that assumption. Is there anybody who would miss you.?

          • johninPCFL

            We would miss you.
            But seriously, all of us become concerned when you talk to the mirror like that.
            You should seek professional help before you kill yourself.

          • hicusdicus

            Why do you have this obsession with killing people? The way you rant about guns is kind of scary. Maybe you are on of those folks who should have your guns removed from you possession . You are correct in assuming I talk to the mirror. Every time I look in it I see this unfamiliar old fart and keep asking him who he is and would he please leave. So far all he has done is pass gas and get uglier.

        • No, it’s not really a fabrication if you look at it in the right perspective.. It is however kinda out there in right field, sort of like a ‘nanny’ state. What all of us has to understand, Liberals are different from Conservatives only in that they concern themselves over others while Conservatives are concerned with their own actions.. It’s like a person can control himself while a group of people can’t always seem to accomplish this. Someone in the group may have the inclination to do what a responsible individual wouldn’t do.. Kinda confusing but still an outside fact in many situations and this outside fact is what the Liberal argues about. So while the Conservative says he’s in control of his situation, a Liberal isn’t quite certain that one (or more) in a group is capable of this thus they ‘what if’ in their conversations as the Conservative doesn’t. This then doesn’t mean the Liberal is in the wrong any more than it means that the Conservative is. What we really need to do is learn how to get along with each other, become united as we once were (before religion and politics got in the way) else our true enemies (the shadows) will have the opportunity to control all of us in the end given time because of this ‘separation’ and a mutual respect is always the first step.

          • hicusdicus

            I get along with dogs just fine. But humans, that is a real problem.

          • That’s really sad but on the other hand I understand exactly where your coming from.

          • hicusdicus

            I am an old person and have met all the people I want to meet. My perspective of life has really gone through some changes. This bitterness between Dem’s and Reb’s has gotten completely out of control. What both parties are doing to buy votes is going curtail America ability to maintain a prosperous stable and free country. They are both cutting off their noses to spite their face. This may sound strange but I am at the end of my life and it is interesting to watch the death of a nation.

          • Yeah, our parents would be rolling in their grave if they new what was happening to their country. Imagine what our grand kid’s children will be faced with. (I shudder to think).

  • palsifar

    Well then … if armed civilians are so effective at enhancing public safety, why not allow the public to bring their firearms into the Florida legislature while it’s in session …

    • johninPCFL

      Marion doesn’t want to get shot.

  • Whatmeworry

    Hmmm and for some reason the left wing loons have no problem with a call to evening prayer for moooslisms while having a gun is a constitutional right

    • Daniel Max Ketter

      A gunless society is a happy society.

      • Dave

        This year will go down in history . For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer our police will be more efficient and the world will follow our lead into the future… Adolph Hitler 1935… It sounds like you and good old Adolph have something in common.

        • DEFENDER88

          Don’t waste your time on Ketter.
          He is a brain-washed, zombie/automaton like, gun grabber- ALL Guns, Period.
          He “cannot” be reasoned-with in any way, shape or form.
          Nor will he add anything to a debate/discussion on the issue.
          He will reject/ignore any and all reason, and will not support his position.
          Kind of like talking to(more like “at”) an old, simple, robot.

          • hicusdicus

            Boy Howdy are you right about him. Absolutely useless, mundane, fabricator and boring. He is an ex union official. Left winged as you can get.

  • Whatmeworry

    Hmmm and for some reason the right wing loons have no problem with a
    call to evening prayer for mooslisms while having a gun isnt a constitutional right

  • Dave

    One of the great things about being an American and having the Bill of Rights, is it does not disseminate someone of their rights do to their age. We all have the right to defend ourselves by all means necessary. If an individual wants to carry a handgun concealed and has passed all the background check’s needed and has some training. No one should be able to tell them that they can’t carry a firearm for protection.

    When seconds count, the police are minutes away.

    • Wedge Shot

      You are not thinking clearly.. Just because you have passed background checks doesn’t show how you would react during a gun incident Trained police that have a weapon at their disposal every minute often don’t react calmly and rationally during extremely stressful gunshot situations. Many times they overreact and kill innocent bystanders. Now you want college students who often don’t react rationally to having to take a test to carry deadly weapons.
      If I were a college professor I would demand an armed security guard be with me at all times just in case a student confronted me because of a bad grade.
      Frankly, the more guns we have the less secure any of us are. Over thirty thousand people in the US are killed by gunshot every year. In fact, more people were killed by guns than in car accidents last year.
      What does that tell you?

      • DEFENDER88

        That tells “me” your data is skewed/flawed.

        20,000 of those gun deaths were suicides – not a real crime, personal choice we should all have. Now take out the drug trade shootings in the hood(90% here) and the number gets a LOT smaller.

        How many Licensed Conceal Carry people have you heard about shooting up a school? or anyone? Or even robbing a store?

        How many shootings you hear on your local news are drug related and in the “hood”? 80-90% here.

        ps1 “Trained Police often don’t react calmly and rationally during extremely stressful gunshot situations” – Actually “most” “almost all” don’t act “calmly”(not going to happen) but you train to learn how to deal with it as much as possible. Good training and “combat practice” is the key. Problem is – most police don’t train that much in actual “combat pistol practice”. They “Qualify” 2-3 times/yr shooting at stationary target that is scored. In the “Academy” they get some combat/sim training but that is usually a one time deal/event when they start.

        ps2 I can tell you exactly what will happen to you(mentally/physically/kinaesthetically) in a real gun fight, if you want to know. And how to learn to deal with it.

        • Wedge Shot

          You are delusional. We had a girl sitting at a bar recently killed by an officer that decided that 11 rounds should be fired to stop some gut waving a gun. He killed the girl but didn’t kill the guy waving the gun. !! rounds and the girl is dead and they guy lives. We’ve had several incidents where over a hundred rounds were fired by police officers trying to stop one vehicle. Rounds were going through bedrooms and living rooms in the apartment complex where many people lived. Does that sound like police can be rational? But yet you want average people untrained in the stressful conditions involving gun fire to join the in firing bullets.
          I think you are stupid!

          • DEFENDER88

            I did not talk bad about you, or call you any names but If you are going to “call me” names””stupid!” guess I will respond. In trying to discuss the issue – most everything I said was about being properly trained and why some are and some are not(which you clearly don’t have a clue about). Typical gun-grabber hype and dis-information, you cant even differentiate between suicides and real gun crime. You are clearly brainwashed, deep in the bowls of the anti-gun movement with your mis-leading, dis-information.
            Or maybe you are just clueless.
            So I think “you” are a danger to everyone and way more likely to get people killed than any police.
            Already wasted too much of my time on someone like you.

          • You can be ‘properly’ trained on the job but that doesn’t guarantee you’ll preform the work correctly every time. Emotion is the rule in stressful situations as are one-second decisions.. A person can be trained and pass the test but in real life situations, that one-second can ruin lives. You talk semantics in a reality that often have no time to deal with it. Even experts sometimes blow away cardboard innocents in test trainings. and as far as your ‘wasting your time’ on the argument.. doesn’t that just make you wanna pull your rod and blow the dummy to hell..

          • DEFENDER88

            If your point is – Anyone who owns a gun should be properly trained in its storage, access, use, etc including when Not to use it.
            Then I am with you.
            If you are saying no-one should have access to a gun for self defense, then I am not.

            Just owning a gun carries with it a big responsibility to be sure it does not get into the wrong hands and you don’t use it improperly, more.
            And actually carrying a gun for defense, is several levels above that.
            That is what Conceal Carry Permits are for – most states “do” give you a measure of training in how and when and when not to, including Back Ground cks.
            “I” think you should be required to have a Permit to even buy a gun.
            But the Concealed Carry record here is good – you never hear of a Conceal Permit holder commiting any crime. You do hear of them trying to stop them.
            Case in point – the guy(Conceal Carry) (Arizona Walmart) who was shot in the back trying to stop the Cop killers.
            As for “wasting my time” – I just don’t like being called names in an issue discussion.
            But not on a physical level. It exhibits a level of immaturity on his part.
            ps I am more fully trained in Defensive Combat shooting even more than most SWAT Police.
            I “know” how and when and when Not to use force.
            And I am fully familiar with the stress and mental challenges of a gun fight.
            And the challenges/dangers when innocent bystanders are present.
            I don’t have any “rods”. I do have firearms for “Self” Defense and sport.

          • Of course not.. I’m trying to say not everyone should have access to a gun (not including the obvious felon, maniac or gang member which is a gimme on anyone’s radar). Rigid psychological evaluation should be the definitive process on a one on one determination. The trainer should know who needs extensive tests and who knows the safety rules. Once this passes (which I’m sure it already has) then like any other privilege, there will be cheats and lacking processes. I’m saying we all need self protection but lets not make it where we need this protection from those who would use this as their courage. Conceal carry isn’t my argument, it’s the open carry that concerns me.. Going grocery shopping with my kid and noticing someone with an AK strapped over their shoulder.. That’s not a protective measure, that’s blatant exhibition and usually with a chip on the other shoulder.. I commend you for your extensive training as well as any other responsible carrier but not all people who will be allowed to carry will follow guidelines meant for safe and responsible use and though I would not openly protest, I would still be concerned as to who is actually a responsible owner and who isn’t.. Situations dealing with road rage (which is at present, a traditional pass time for some idiots) being my top most concern. Maybe I’m overly cautious, but in a dark theater, if a terrorist begins firing, who knows how many will react
            and how many will know which after blaze to fire back at. Bottom line, I would never protest your freedom to own or carry a fire arm but at all times I would be very cautious around strangers, giving me less freedom to pursue my happiness.

          • DEFENDER88

            Now that is more like it. A well reasoned discussion and reasonable concerns with at least some consideration that not all, in fact many people who “carry” for self defense are not “hot heads”.

            And at least you did not call me “stupid” like the other guy.

            For one thing when you go thru the permitting process you must handle a gun and shoot accurately to qualify, at least in this state(Tenn). AND you are interacting with a State Certified Instructor(Usually a Cop). So you get something of an evaluation of your sanity. Cops are usually pretty good on picking up on people who should not be getting a permit. Not infallible but at least some measure of review.

            As for “Open Carry” –

            I/we don’t like and worry as much about those guys as you do, maybe more.

            We think they do US more harm than good. You will not find a really “responsible” concealed carrier doing such a thing. For several reasons:

            – It gives away your tactical advantage of the bad guys not knowing who is armed.

            – Someone could grab/take you gun.

            – It harms the efforts of responsible carriers to make our case.

            – It scares people.

            – I am like you – scares me too – When I see a guy like that(open carry) I am glad I am armed:)

            The possibility of shooting the wrong person, ie hitting a bystander is covered and stressed in many ways in our Concealed Carry program. It is stressed that “you” are responsible for that bullet, wherever it goes. You “own it” until it stops(and maybe even after that). We must pass a stringent background check, get finger printed, the instructor must personally sigh off on/for your permit and other certification paperwork.

            This is also one reason why most all police and we also carry hollow point ammo for self defense – there is less chance of shooting thru a bad guy and hitting an innocent by-stander. Even though the ammo is more expensive.

            What we call a “Shoot-Thru”. Which we practice to avoid.

            Some (who don’t understand) think it is because we just want to kill everyone.

            When it is actually the opposite we are trying to do or not do.

            Since I have been shot-at 3 times and me with no gun – I got trained – figure my luck was running out:)

            I have taken this to many levels above the permit – I practice a lot on Dynamic Tactical Combat Pistol(NOT static stand and shoot a target) including how to NOT shoot a Non-Threat(Innocent). All this under induced stress, like a real gun fight(as much as we can make it anyway without actually shooting each other). It is a sport called IDPA(Intl Defensive Pistol Assoc) (Look it up). There are clubs all over the country doing this with a lot of good people doing it(we don’t allow “hot heads”, true Red Necks, mental cases, etc)

            Nurses, teachers, carpenters, engineers, you name it. Everyday people.

            We are ALL Permit holders and “strongly” encourage others to get theirs.

            We invite Police but not many come – its an ego thing. They don’t like being “out-shot”.

            We usually have 50-100 shooters every month. And that is just one smallish mid-south city.

            I shoot about 500-1000rds/month practicing, the normal cop shoots maybe 50-100rds/mo in practice.

          • Wow! Now who can argue with training like that? In Texas it’s now open carry .. I’m a Texan but have lived in Utah since Perry became head clown, now he’s gone and a whole new gaggle of crazies have taken over. This was my original argument and rightfully so (in my mind).. Didn’t have a clue that other states use this freedom for reasonable safety. This has become a dangerous society in all aspects and almost a necessity to carry arms, concealed being the choice. I don’t carry because I was once sentenced to 6 months state jail for having three doobies on my person (marijuana cigarettes to the novice) and am now considered a felon (for life) I can vote but not apply for food stamps where as a murderer or rapist can’t vote but can be approved for food stamps.. (just thought I’d toss that in for the irony of it).. Those who call others names have no right to reply to posts. Thanks for enlightening me on states that don’t think erratic concerning gun issues.

          • hicusdicus

            No where near as dangerous as third world countries. Most felony convictions are becoming ridiculous. I am starting to think it is just a backdoor gun control. Last but not least. Where ever there are humans there is danger.

          • DEFENDER88

            Ironic indeed.

            If I were Governor I would pardon you, wipe it clean. Seriously. See below.

            Never did the drug or alcohol thing but don’t really understand why any of them are illegal. They ALL used to be legal.

            Hell – FDR took Cocaine for his nasal condition right before his famous speech declaring war on Japan after Pearl Harbor.

            If you want to do Black Tar Heroin, or as the dealers say Ha’Ron , fine as long as you don’t hurt anyone else.

            I would legalize ALL of it – if someone wants to fry his brain he should have the right to do it. If I want to shoot myself I should have that right. As long as I am not hurting someone else. The only drugs I would declare illegal would be the psychotropic drugs(anti-depressants) that make young men go out and commit mass murder. In case you have not followed – ALL the mass murders – school shootings, even the FT Hood shooting have been done by young white men 16-26yo on anti-depressants. Our war vets are committing suicide at record rates – why? – you guessed it – they are now prescribed anti-depressants for PTSD and sent home. “Treatment” now days is – call me if you need more pills.

            Next school shooting – look for a young white man on an anti-depressant. It is not the gun it is the geeked-out shooter.

            Fundamentally it is a mental health issue with our now broken mental health system.

            The school shootings started in the late 1970’s about the same time we emptied the mental health facilities in favor of treating them at home on anti-depressants. So now they are out among us.

            When a drunk driver kills someone with a car, we don’t scream to ban cars – we punish the “person” for the “behavior” . None of my guns will ever wake up tomorrow, go down to the local school and shoot anyone.

            I have been trying for a while now to talk some sense about this issue in here but often get called stupid, etc. After the New Town school murders they even called me a Baby Killer in here. Because I said it was not the guns fault it was the mentality of the shooter.

            Plus his mother not securing her guns from her mental case son. But that is another American tragedy – the poor parents who are trying to deal with mental case kids and cant get help except to get psyco drugs for them.

            It is more a mental health issue than a gun issue.

            Factually – Gun ownership is way up but crime and gun crime rates continue to decline and have for several years.

            School shootings get the headlines but Most of the everyday US gun crime comes from the “Hood” and is drug trade related.

            The “root cause” of that is poverty etc. – not guns.

            Sorry for the rant but I don’t often find someone in here willing to hear my view point.

            And I am not guessing on my data, I have done my research – you can look up School Shootings etc on Wikepedia, etc.

            ps I am also a State of Tn Certified Conceal Carry Instructor.

            Sometimes I also help teach local Police to shoot(on a volunteer basis).

          • First off, my gripe.. Marijuana should never have been associated with a ‘drug’.. a drug is a substance that has been modified (ask any pharmacist) marijuana is an herb.. Marijuana is not a brain frier, only brainless dolts have that problem and it’s not because they light up but rather.. they are simply brainless dolts. Giving marijuana a class 1 rating (up there with heroin, morphine, LSD) is ludicrous and manipulative. It should have always been rated in the same class as alcohol but even THAT would be in error.. Anyway, that’s my personal take on it.
            As far as you go I have read nothing in your statement to
            give any indication that you’re not right on with your opinion. A weapon of any kind does not have a brain nor the inclination to go out and seek trouble, only the handler has that distinction and even then they would undoubtedly be manic if they chose to do such a thing (either full-blown or as most mouth pieces use as a technicality in court, temporarily insane).. Neither are legitimate, neither should have access to any weapon. Just like the corrupt cop who causes a tragedy which rebounds on every other cop, the armed nut job does the same to the responsible weapons carrier.. By the way, I do wish you were Governor, maybe you would fix it where (minor) felons could find real jobs and not have to watch their kid go to bed hungry because they can’t apply for food stamps.. Something I would never have attempted had it not been for the bias to felons in the work place. Thanks for your explanation and in return, for reading mine.

          • hicusdicus

            I will certainly listen to you point of view. By the way Hitler was dosed every day with methamphetamine the whole time he was fuhrer. That’s why he developed Parkinson’s and was diagnosed with only 5 years of active life left. He had nothing to lose so he destroyed his people.

          • DEFENDER88

            ps I did not mean “you” were trying to fry your brain, especially on just weed.

            I meant that for people in general with hard drugs.

            But I think they should be allowed to as long as they don’t hurt anyone else and we don’t have to take care of them.

            On the upside, this country seems to be headed toward making Marijuana legal.

            Long overdue.

            Perhaps there may be some means in the future for you to get some kind of pardon, clear your record, for a crime that should have never been a crime.

            Ill be pulling for you.

            You may have to move to another state.

            But I know if I was in charge(although I have no intention) I would pardon all those type offenses and clear out 1/2 the jail population in this country.

            Hell if we make it all legal it is a win, win.

            Save money not having to jail people who should not be there anyway.

            Make money by making it all legal and tax it like liquor.

            We could probably balance the budget.

            Of course the Puritans(Do-Gooders), Law Enforcement agencies who depend on dope money, Prison Contractors/operators, etc would raise hell.

            Its times like this when I wish I had tried to get rich and into politics instead of being a retired engineer and expert with weapons and self defense.


            Here is a self defense system I deploy and live by:

            It is a hirarchy of reactions to threats/States of Awarness that I go thru before drawing and shooting:

            1-White – Breezing along mindless with no care in the world. (I am never like this)(Rarely anyway)

            2-Yellow – A general state of awareness of your surroundings and potentials for danger/threats(my normal state)

            3-Orange – I have identified a potential threat/s and watching, also looking for avenues of escape if possible

            (Sometimes here I will look them straight in the eye(briefly) just to let them know that I know.)

            I have actually turned guys around by just doing this.

            4-Red 1 – I have been approached by a threat and feel threatened, My hand is “on” my gun but it is not out yet.

            5-Red 2 – I feel seriously threatened and “know” I am about to be attacked, my gun is out but not fired yet.

            ie they are coming at me.

            Normally I never “brandish”/show a weapon, but in this case it “can” prevent/avoid a shooting.

            6-Black – I am being attacked by one or more with threat of serious harm or death – “now” I am shooting.

            You can comfortably operate in the Yellow state for long periods of time.

            Orange and above – not so much.

            exa – If the road rage guy is yelling and screaming/raging at me – that’s Orange.

            I will be trying to escape.

            If he starts breaking in my car window – that’s Red 2 and if he does not stop than Black(he will be shot).

            In addition to being an expert at Combat with a handgun, I have studied/practiced:

            Street Fighting, Okinawa Karate, Russian Systema(Special Forces), Israel Krav Maga – Hand to hand systems.

            “If possible” I will do this before using my gun.

            I “can” disable, even kill quickly without a gun. Even big guys.

            I learned all this to avoid having to actually shoot anyone.

            Plus I often don’t carry my gun.

            If you cant own a gun – like you – you might want to consider some of these systems.

            I also have cameras and proximity sensors all around my house.

            Taught my wife to shoot and we have a “plan” should anyone threaten to come in here.

            And the best deterrent – we have a twitchy barking dog if anyone comes around:)

          • I didn’t take it that way in any sense of the word.. I just wanted you to know my frustration on the label that pot

            has been linked to for over 80 years and I was simply venting.. I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression.. Sounds like you’ve covered all bases for protection with what (could) be coming up soon.. I too know a few moves as I grew up in a martial arts studio (my parents) but even that is considered a lethal weapon because of my ‘tattoo’ (felon).. however I’ve rarely used them (except when I was in school) I also have cameras and safe guards and a very formidable son who doesn’t have a record and can use such techniques taught to him on some idiot’s brain pan as he can’t possess guns either because of my status..
            I agree, inmates are expensive to house, on average they cost more than a person making minimum wage on a job per year.. the harder cases and those who need protection from the general population (rapists and child murderers) cost even more (up to three times the average workers yearly pay) and as it has become privatized, the profit hungry vultures keep their prisons filled even if it means making up a charge to do it.. As far as the budget goes, take it from R. Reagan when he said, “g’ment never worries about the budget as it levels itself in time”..after all, (except for an open debt to China) the deficit is what we owe to ourselves. The politicians salivate over the deficit because it’s a good rallying point to collect votes.
            Anyway I regress.. Thanks for the conversation.. at least for awhile, I and hopefully you enjoyed this forum.

          • DEFENDER88

            Thanks for sharing and listening.

          • hicusdicus

            Prescription drugs kill more people than illegal drugs. Two doctors have told me that if pot were legal they would prescribe it instead of about twenty other drugs. I took up pot and quit taking five drugs that were causing side effects. Stress is the leading cause of health problems. Pot really does a good job of relieving stress. I have been in one gun fight and I lost. Pronounced DOA. I suffer from blind luck. Now I have a judge in every room of the house including the bathrooms. One in the shop and two hand guns in each car. My security system is 10 dogs [ I rescue strays] a goose and a lazy cat. I live on 50 acres. Martial arts do not interest me .I am 80 years old.

          • DEFENDER88

            A gun can be a great equalizer if you know how to use them. If not – they can get you killed.
            What load do you carry in those Judges?
            What is the average spread of a shotgun load at 10ft – normal “in house” defensive range.?
            How good are you with a handgun? What kind are they?
            How much pistol shooting have you done?
            How much under “combat conditions”?
            What are the 4 Rules for Handling Guns Safely?
            Do you have any physical limitations? Eyes, heart, limbs, memory, strength, etc.
            Do you have a carry permit?

          • hicusdicus

            Half of them are governors. The first one out for the house guns are rubber buckshot followed by staggered Hornady and Winchester. I have fired overall about 1500 times at 30 foot on my pistol range. I practice shooting from a laying down, walking and at targets behind me position. I aim for the throat, the .410 shoots a little high. I have never missed. That’s what is so intriguing about legal sawed off shot guns. Do I have physical limitations? I am 80 years old. If 9 .36 cal. balls plus 36 BB’s , 3 rds does not do the job, its my time to go. Of course if I completely panic there will be 18 .36 cal. balls plus BB’s and if my wife is there you can double it. I am of a mind that if someone is blind and in extreme pain their focus will shift. We both have had CCP for twenty years. We also have a pair of kelteck plr 16’s. and one plr .22 and 25000 rds of .22’s. Why all the guns? I am slow and want one always within reach. My wife and I are old white and slow moving victims. Getting killed is not one of my worries but I won’t let it be a freebee.

          • DEFENDER88

            Good for you.
            Sounds like you have done about as well as you can in being prepared.
            I asked about physical limitations since some your age are limited to walkers, wheel chairs etc and have limitations. Also some are too shaky or too weak to actually be able to pull a trigger and hit anything or more likely hit themselves.
            Also some are ignorant to what a “real” gun fight will be like and think since they bought a gun and shot 6 rds thru it they are “Ready”.
            Of course, you, having been in a gun fight, know better.
            Many who have a shotgun think it is going to spread a huge wide pattern in 10ft. They don’t understand you still have to aim even a shotgun especially at short ranges.
            I shoot 500-1,000 rds/mo in practice and competitions.
            Combat Pistol(IDPA) and 3 Gun.

          • hicusdicus

            Here is my take on a how gun fight goes down. Like a bolt of lightening on a clear sunny day. If you don’t no what you are going to do before it happens, you lose. I don’t expect to prevail but if I have a .410 revolver in my hand I will have company for the trip to where ever. Unless it is a head shot I will snap that hammer 6 times before I stop breathing. If it is federal that’s 24 .36 cal going their way. Try it. Fire a Governor as fast as you can loaded with federal 000 at a target 30 feet away. Then go and investigate the mess you have made. If you don’t agree I bet you will when you are 80.

          • DEFENDER88

            Good for you.
            I am 67 so not that far behind you.
            I am always, by far, the oldest guy at the competitions.
            I tell people I almost always win my Div (Senior)

            I am not going down easy either.

            I am going to try a Judge 1st chance I get.
            Always open to different things.
            But below is what I am doing now:

            From 30ft, I can put 6rds of 9mm in the chest ring in 1.5 seconds. Considered mortal shots.

            That does not include my “draw”.
            My draw takes another 1.5 sec.

            So 6 rds in 3sec including the draw.
            Actually my last time was 2.54.

            That’s a tot of 2rds/sec from the draw.

            4rds/sec from “high ready”.

            So I can put 17 rds down range(“accurately”) in about 4-5sec.

            It sounds almost like full auto.

            And I can reload a 17rd Mag in about 1.5sec.

            So I feel fairly comfortable with a 9mm pistol.
            I usually operate with 3 mags of 17rds each, at home.
            That’s 51 (Accurate) 9mm shots in about 13 seconds.
            If I cant get them with that, I deserve to loose.
            I am also pretty good and even faster with an AR.

            I also use a weapon mounted light like the SWAT guys.

            Who I sometimes help teach.

            I have shot a 454 Casull, and 50 Cal S&W pistols.
            Accurate but way too much recoil. Even “ported”.

            We shoot all positions, moving targets, moving while shooting, moving strong hand, moving weak hand, kneeling, prone,
            head shots, non-threats(no-shoots) mixed in – you name it.
            From cover, tactical priority/”slice the pie”, tactical sequence, more. Room Clearing, House Clearing, more.
            New scenarios, situations to solve(shoot your way out of) every month. Practice like it should be, like a real fight. Heart pumping, mind racing, 1/2 fried, geeked out, fast(light speed), etc. We “start” ea stage with that “bolt” you mentioned. From calm/.relaxed to light speed in a split sec.

          • hicusdicus

            The difference between 67 and 80 is like the difference between a .22 and a cannon ball. When I was 67 I could ride a bicycle 50 miles in under 4 hrs. At 62 I rode 1500 miles in 14 days. Now a trip to the bathroom is a challenge.

          • DEFENDER88

            I will take your word for it.
            Same thing I tell the 30yr olds I am shooting against.
            Difference between 67 and 30 is (as you may recall) significant also.
            So, yeah, I believe you.
            If I make it much further, I am going to remember your “Judge” advise.
            But before, I played golf all the time and got good at it.
            When I got to be about 60 I thought, hmm, not getting any younger.
            Maybe I should start spending my time on something I may really need someday.
            Like a fight for my life.
            So I started shooting, and not just a little, I mean 500-1000rds a month. Still do.
            All I can afford.
            So now, I can actually “compete” with and beat the 30yr olds.
            And not just target shooting, but active combat pistol, rifle, swat, etc tactics and equipment handling(Battle).
            In general, Self Defense carried to a really high level.
            Like I said I have been shot at 3 times, and don’t intend to sit there next time with no gun and just hope they go away or forced to retreat. Or face them down and just get lucky – like I have before.
            Take a shot at me now or threaten to and you can expect an accurate, sustained, combat response.
            And now I will be even more pisssed than before. And less afraid to die if I must.
            They are going to think they have kicked the top off a Special Forces Hornet Nest from Hell.
            I don’t plan to go out easy.
            I am a “sleeper” (like you) – The young thugs/predators look at us a prey.
            Boy are they going to be surprised.
            If they attack me and there are any of them left – I plan on them asking themselves – WTF just happened?
            Didn’t see that coming from that old F**k er
            I am also ready to take it to another level:
            I am also ready for multiples/gangs:
            I also have what I call a “Go to War” Box – Contains – Assault Rifle, Class IV(Ceramic Plate, Multi-hit)(Mil-Spec) Rifle proof body armor, MICH Helmet(Std Army Isssue), Several cases of Green Tip (Penetrator) ammo, Night Vision, Balaclava, Fire Gloves, Camo, Goggles, etc etc. And a couple high power, longe range sniper type long guns. And I practice with all that also. Plus other warnings and defenses, If a gang comes here, I am as ready as one can be. And not afraid. I actually started as a Sniper. So they are going to have to back-of quite a bit.
            Im not going to just shoot them, I am going to take out their vehicles so they will have to RUN LIKE HELL. Then warn others not to F**k with that old man down there.
            The “gun grabbers” in here say “what are you so paranoid about that you have to carry a gun”?
            I say – I am not paranoid about ANYTHING, I carry a gun for Gods sake.
            Why would I need to be paranoid?

          • hicusdicus

            When the time comes all I want is a governor in each hand a belly full of oxycodone and a joint between my lips. Its called passing on with a smile on your face. Anyhow who wants to die alone?

          • hicusdicus

            I have a CCP and I believe that open carry is the worst thing that has happened the pro gun people. It is just stupid and could cause the second amendment to be rewritten or gotten rid of.

          • I agree.. Open carry is nothing less than the extreme of conceal and has no relevance between the two. I had no problem with carrying until that showed it’s ugly face. Now the extremists will move to discredit both which is wrong in itself. In a perfect world, neither should be an issue but as this isn’t a perfect world, being selective or extreme on freedoms is simply dumb politics.

          • hicusdicus

            I think I follow you. Let me say that gun nuts are pro gun peoples worst enemy.

          • Indeed, and they make a farce of legitimacy.

          • hicusdicus

            If somebody scares me bad enough everything goes out the window and I will petition the governor to mediate the situation.

          • Wedge Shot

            We are supposed to live in a civilized society. Civilized people do not need to carry guns with them at all times. As for your comment on suicides your number is way to high and if the gun was not available people might have a chance to think about it before hand.. with a gun. Just a little flick of the finger and poof… you are dead. And how about the hundred or so people killed each month by someone carelessly handling a gun. I have personally witnessed trained police offices shooting holes in the patrol car floor due to carelessness. Every day in Orlando Florida someone is shot and killed with a gun. Some days it is more than one. Not all of these shooting involve drugs and criminals. Some are done by stupid bastards like George Zimmerman.

    • Wedge Shot

      You do not have the right to defend yourself by all means necessary. You can not use explosives to blow someone up just because you feel threatened. Get real!

  • Wedge Shot

    The NRA will not be satisfied until there are gun fights on the street every day. And then they will want to legalize automatic weapons and machine guns. Next up is allowing 10 year old’s to carry loaded weapons to school because you never know when they might encounter a bully.
    The NRA is out of its fuc*ing mind.

    • Dave

      The NRA has some of the best firearms training and trainers in the nation. They have set the ground work in teaching all of our Police and our Fire and rescue personnel firearm safety. They also teach all of our youth hunter safety courses across our nation. They set the ground work for firearm safety, and they set a very high standard for an individual who wants to be a firearms instructor, not all who take the classes move on to be instructors. I am in the process of taking the classes now to be a instructor, I have two more classes that I will be taking in mid February to be one.

    • It’s not arming citizens that the NRA cares about. It’s increasing the demand for bullets to the point that they sell for $100 a shot.

      The NRA’s con basically works like this:
      #1: Gut all restrictions so that 100% of all criminals and maniacs can buy as many guns as they want.
      #2: Oppose all security alternatives, including increasing police presence.
      #3: Wait for a massacre.
      #4: Tell the terrified masses that the only way they can defend themselves from well-armed criminals and maniacs is to get well-armed themselves.

    • DEFENDER88

      On the NRA.
      Since you are not in the NRA(and from what you “say”) you really don’t know what they teach or advocate – not really.
      You “Really Don’t Know”.
      The National Politics(which you object too) is one thing, the actual work they do on gun handling, safety and training is something else all together and is “by far” their primary emphasis area(98% of what they do). And is the U.S. National Standard for Gun “Safety Training”.
      If everyone in this country followed the rules of gun safety and handling they stress and teach no one in this country would be accidentally shot.
      The NRA establishes and maintains the rules for SAFE gun handling and instruction for the US. And they stress this most strongly.
      All Police, all Firearms Instructors in the US must go through the NRA Schools in Safety, Handling, Mechanics, Shooting, etc.

      • Wedge Shot

        When a bullet is fired there is no guarantee where it will end up. It can kill an innocent person just as easily as a bad person. Allowing students, which by virtue of their age, do not have the best cognitive behavior to fire a gun at someone is just asking for a disaster. If someone were to kill one of my kids because they thought they were John Wayne and fired in the heat of the moment, would face a wrath that likely would show them the error of their ways in a form that would instill in them permanently and finally how their actions were stupid.
        More people were killed in the US in 2014 by gunfire than by all of the auto accidents combined.
        We have now become the most stupid country on earth.
        Isis, the Taliban and all terrorist organization killings haven’t even come within 5% of killing the amount of people the US doesn’t with guns. When the hell does this country exist the 19th century?

  • Dave

    A University of central Florida student Sable Nehme says she’s glad that her father give her a hand gun to take to school after she needed one to confront two violent home invaders, who held her and her boyfriend at gun point and threatened their life.

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