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Thursday, October 20, 2016

By Lisa Mascaro, Tribune Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON — Intense opposition from the National Rifle Association has all but doomed prospects for President Barack Obama’s nominee for surgeon general, officials said Saturday as pro-gun Senate Democrats peeled away from the White House on a volatile issue in an election year.

Facing a potential high-profile setback for the president, the White House is not pushing for a vote to confirm Dr. Vivek Hallegere Murthy, a Harvard and Yale-educated internist and former emergency room doctor who has advocated for stricter gun control laws, the officials said.

Democratic leaders in the Senate have begun surveying senators to determine whether there is enough support to save the troubled nomination. Few Republicans are expected to back Murthy, and as many as eight Democrats also could be opposed.

“We don’t expect a vote to happen,” a Senate aide said.

The divide between the White House and the president’s party has widened in recent weeks as Obama’s low poll numbers leave Democrats increasingly concerned about their chances in the November midterm election and whether they could lose their majority in the Senate.

Earlier this month, Obama’s nominee to head the Justice Department’s civil rights division, Debo Adegbile, was rejected by the full Senate after several Democrats joined Republicans in opposing him.

Law enforcement groups had criticized Adegbile’s past involvement in the legal appeals of Mumia Abu-Jamal, who was on death row and is now serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole for killing a Philadelphia police officer.

Gun rights issues are particularly powerful in an election year, and the entrance of the NRA into the surgeon general confirmation opens a new front in the gun lobby’s efforts to halt any attempts at federal firearms restrictions.

In a letter to Senate leadership in February, the NRA warned against the confirmation, saying, “Dr. Murthy’s record of political activism in support of radical gun control measures raises significant concerns.”

In the past, the NRA didn’t venture into nomination battles beyond those directly related to Second Amendment issues, but the gun lobby’s letter suggested “the likelihood he would use the office of surgeon general to further his pre-existing campaign against gun ownership.”

A spokesman for the NRA said Saturday that the organization was simply responding to the White House decision to nominate a gun control advocate.

“We’re forced to get involved and voice our opposition,” said NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam.

Murthy testified last month at his confirmation hearing that he did not intend to use the surgeon general’s office as a bully pulpit for gun control. At the time, he was criticized primarily by Republican senators for having co-founded a doctors organization that backed Obama.

Murthy has expressed a desire to tighten restrictions on who can buy guns and how they can be purchased. Supporters say that most Americans support those views and that they are mainstream, not radical.

Heading into the November election, lawmakers are careful not to antagonize the NRA because gun rights issues particularly appeal to the white and conservative voters who typically drive turnout in midterm elections. Several Democratic senators face tough re-election battles in states that Obama lost in 2012, including Alaska, Arkansas and Louisiana.

Despite appeals from families of shooting victims, the Senate rejected White House efforts to tighten gun laws after a gunman massacred 20 children and six adults at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.

AFP Photo/Mark Wilson

  • Barbara Schutz

    This is absolutely outrageous.

  • paulyz

    Just why is the Left so against our 2nd. Amendment RIGHTS? If you pick away at 1 Right, you will lose another. The only conclusion is for Federal Government control & Socialism. They don’t care about you Liberals.

    • disqus_ivSI3ByGmh

      No one is opposed to 2nd Amendment rights to maintain a well ordered militia. What people are opposed to is the belief that any individual should be able to own assault weapons that have no place outside the military. A sportsman who cannot take down a buck with two rounds should not be allowed in the field. A sportsman who cannot take an elk with two rounds should not be allowed in the field. If you want better personal protection, demand better actions from the people paid to do so – the Police Department.

      • DEFENDER88

        The civilian version of the “assault rifle” is NOT the military grade weapon. It is no different, in functiion, than standard civilian semi-auto hunting rifles. Most civilians cannot buy and DO NOT OWN the military grade weapon.
        You really do have things backwards – you sound elite and entitled – the Police, God Bless them, CANNOT PROTECT YOU, then can hunt down the person who attacked you and put him in jail but they cannot “PROTECT” you from an attack, unless you live with one. If you want better personal protection, learn how to defend our Founders did. Take on at least some responsibility for your own safety and defense. I am not willing to pay for more Police if you are not willing to do your part in defending yourself.

    • Grannysmovin

      We are not against “our” 2nd Amendment Rights, but when that right was written they only had muskets and musket balls. We believe restricting assault style weapons and large magazines is a gun safety issue.

      • DEFENDER88

        Muskets were the Assualt Rifles of the day back then. And everyone had one for protection and hunting. And everyone came to Lexington and Concord and took a shot at the British. The 2nd Amend does not say the right to bear muskets! The Founders had enough foresight to develope the best Govt System in the world to date. You dont think the founders had enough foresight to see arms technology would advance in time? Guns dont “cause” violence. Violent behavior causes violence. In Africa they just use macheties to kill thousands, no guns needed. A large Harvard Law study shows that removing guns does not effect the level of violence or killing. People will find a way.

        • Grannysmovin

          Would not a well ordered militia refer to the police department, the National Guard and the Armed Forces? Why do we need citizens armed with assault weapons and large magazines? If you need an assault weapon with 50 to 100 rounds to take down a deer or an intruder you have no business owning a weapon. The founders could never have the foresight to imagine the weapons of today or our military capabilities. Guns are a means with which allows an individual to be violent and cause large numbers of death and injury in a matter of moments.

          • DEFENDER88

            Well Granny – I know you are well meaning but you have things backwards.
            Follow me now.
            A large Harvard Law Study says guns make no difference in the level of violence in a society.
            Take guns away and the level of violence is still there. The root problem is why the people have the propensity for violence in the first place. In Africa they just use macheties to kill – the level of “Violence” does not depend on guns being available. Think about it – if people are pissed and want to kill they will find a way. Take guns away from gang bangers and they will still kill people.
            Note 50 and 100 rd magazines are not used in defensive rifles – they jam too much.
            30 rd magazines are standard.
            Unless you have the skills of a Navy Seal you are going to need a lot of bullets to neutralize the threat if you are attacked by a gang. And the thieves, robbers and drug people do usually run in gangs now.
            Assault Rifles – the civilian gun looks like an Assault Rifle but it is not. It is not the military grade gun.I own a rifle that LOOKS like an Assault Rifle but is is NOT a true Assault Rifle.
            Most of the rifles everyone is calling “Assault Rifles” are not really Assault Rifles, even though they do look like one.
            I own several guns but I am not a violent person so they are not a problem or threat to our society. The last thing I want to do is have to shoot someone.

            But if I am attacked by a gang I am going to need a high capacity magazine since I am not a Navy Seal. I REFUSE to be defensless and let them have their way with me. If they attack me, they are going to think twice about attacking anyone else – I assure you.

            The Police CAN NOT “Protect” me from an attack. They can find them(maybe) later and put them away(maybe) but they cannot “protect” me and mine.
            And many of the gang bangers do have assault rifles and are not going to give them up and they dont do background checks.
            MY Defense is up to me alone. And I should have the right to be equally armed for my defense

          • Grannysmovin

            I am not concerned with the Harvard Study, but rather the real time deaths of innocent individuals by gun violence. You say you are not a violent person however the way you express your position is violence waiting to happen. We own guns, but they are hunting rifles and hand guns that hold no more than 10 rounds. Where is this gang attack going to happen? Are you carrying this weapon with you to the stores, church etc? You have the right to defend yourself, but where does it say you have the right to take out a number of people who may or may not mean you harm. No guarantee that you start spraying bullets at a “gang” there will not be collateral damage. We are talking about gun safety not taking away your right to defend yourself and your family.

          • leadvillexp

            The point is taking the guns away will solve nothing. You only have to look to the Boston bombing or the World Trade Center. Closer to American made look at the Murrah Federal Building. If guns are the cause of so much death and should be removed shouldn’t private ownership of automobiles? They cause so much more. Very few shootings are done with so called assult rifles. Most are done with handguns. The so called assult rifles are the same as your hunting rifles except for looks. I have one, and the New York State Safe Act says I have to register it. If I remove the compensator and bayonet lug I don’t. I am sure you understand how dangerous a compensator and bayonet lug are. I will soon take them off and my rifle will still shoot the same. The gun restrictions they pass are stupid and are done just to try to get reelected.

          • DEFENDER88

            If you are always safe and dont have to worry about thieves, burglars, etc good for you.
            If you dont need to defend yourself and If you dont need or want a gun, that is your choice.
            But many of us are not so lucky.
            My repelling a gang refers to MY HOME defense. I dont go looking for trouble.
            “I” have never “attacked” anyone. Since I am 66yo I dont think I will start now.
            But if they come here they will get it. Home invaders, thieves etc run in groups&gangs now.
            If 2-3-4 come in on me/us I am going to need more than a 5-6 shot revolver to deal with them. I am a good shot(I practice a LOT)(I shoot tactical pistol competitions) but under fire and stress I will likely need more shots. And if they have rifles I will need my rifle and more than 10 shots. In case you dont know, these thieves WILL KILL YOU. Even a Granny. They just dont care. Some, especially those on drugs will kill you for no reason at all.
            You apparently did not see the case in Conn where just 2 burglars came in, tied the wife and 2 daughters to bed upstairs, raped them, set them on fire and burned the house with them in it.
            I refuse to be a victim like this in my own home.
            But in public, I dont normally carry a gun to stores or in public, I dont want to have to deal with people like you who would probably sue me even if I saved your life. So if you get a good beat- down or shot out in public dont bame me for not helping.
            I do, now, carry in Church(Concealed) since “I was asked” to be on the Church Security Force. We are low key and blend-in but ready if needed. I also help(volunteer) train local police to shoot so dont try to tell me about shooting and what can happen.

          • DEFENDER88

            Does not really matter anymore what you or I “think” the 2nd Amend means. The Law of this Land – The Supreme Court, not long ago, *Ruled* – it means the right of *Individuals* to bear arms, not just a militia or Guard. LIke it or not – that argument is *settled law* now..

          • Grannysmovin

            This is what Justice Scalia said in his opinion:

            “On pp. 54 and 55, the majority opinion, written by conservative bastion Justice Antonin Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”

            “Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

            “We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller (an earlier case) said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time”. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’ ”

            The court even recognizes a long-standing judicial precedent “…to consider… prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons.”

          • DEFENDER88

            Thanks Granny, been a while since I have seen it.
            I have no problem with it.
            First note the rifle you are “calling” an assault rifle(but it is not really) is NOW the most “common” rifle in-use/owned in the US today.
            2nd I did not see Militia or Natl Guard or Military mentioned anywhere.
            I have no problem with regulating WHO can have a gun(No criminals, mental cases, etc) – in fact I agree.
            Prohibitions on carrying concealed – no problem – there ARE prohibitions already in place – I have a license to carry – having been checked by State, Fed & FBI, Background, Finger Print, etal

            Here is a video link (below) of an older couple at their apartment one night – She was seriously permanentaly injured and almost beaten to death and spent several months in the hospital.
            They should have know better I guess BUT alone(isolated) like this at night I sometimes put my pocket pistol in my pocket just in case.
            This was real and not faked.
            There are more.
            So you will be more aware of how quickly things can turn deadly. Like I said these people WILL kill you, they just dont care


        • stcroixcarp

          The Second Amendment says: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Actually, the 2nd doesn’t say anything about fire arms or guns. This amendment is about the right of the State to protect itself.

          • DEFENDER88

            You have your opinion and I have mine. What matters is the Law of the Land. And “like it or not” the Supreme Court(the law of “this” land) ruled the 2nd Amend means the right of “individuals” to keep and bear arms.

          • leadvillexp

            Not true. There is a comma after free state. The words that follow are “The right of the people to keep and bear arms.” The State does have a right to protect itself but so do the people. While you all want to disarm the people and get rid of the Second Amendment look and see what the legislators want to do to the First. It was recently proposed to create a FCC type of rule for newspapers. They would first read what was to be published. The legislators knew what would happen and dropped the idea. When the Second is gone the First will be next. Ben Franklin said “People willing to trade their Freedom for security, deserve neither and will lose both.”

          • stcroixcarp

            There are two commas. After State and Arms. And the word is people, a collective noun, not individuals.

          • leadvillexp

            You are right. I never said that the State meaning State, as in New York, should not have a well regulated militia. The people mean all people not just in the militia. At the time it was written the Forefathers were afraid of a too powerful central government and wanted to keep power within the States. They were correct. New York has a militia and it is not the National Guard which was Federalized.

      • DEFENDER88

        Like I said I think you mean well and you were probably traumatized by the Sandy Hook killing with a rifle.
        I understand that, who wasnt.

        But I am looking at the larger picture of Gun Crime overall in the US.

        Fact – 95% of gun crime is done with HAND GUNS not Rifles.

        Less then 4% is done with Rifles

        AND less then 1% is done with these Fau-Assault Rifles.

        Which are not even really Assault Rifles. They are actually Semi-Auto hunting and utility rifles.

        So – a ban on these rifles will have very little to no effect on the overall Gun Crime Rate.

        I assure you – one can do just as much damage in a school of small children with a pistol as with a rifle.

        And MOST attacks is schools have been done with pistols.

        These so-called Assault Rifles are not the real/larger problem.

        Violent Behavior and what causes it is the real problem.
        Limiting guns does NOT reduce the crime rate.
        The Harvard Study proved that

        • FredAppell

          I’ve been following your back and forth debate with interest, I appreciate that you have kept it civil and respectful. I don’t own any guns nor do I claim to know much about them. Though I wish guns didn’t exist, I have on occasion entertained the thought of buying one for the very logical reasons that you have expressed, I’m still on the fence with that one given the fact that I live in a very low crime area. All that being said, the article was discussing the unlikelihood of President Obama’s nomination for Surgeon General going through because of his own personal views regarding gun ownership. It’s really nobody’s business what an appointee privately thinks just as long as they follow what the law states. As you’ve said, “it’s the law of the land”. The Surgeon General does not make policy for gun control. Besides, I think the NRA will use any opportunity to stir the pot just the same as politicians using shootings as a rallying cry for gun control. The big difference is, the laws being past are mostly
          symbolic with no real power but the NRA are really getting people up in arms by creating hysteria.

          • DEFENDER88

            Thanks Fred. My objectives are to contribute what I know to discussions on gun issues and try to dispell false information – a lot of which is propogated in here. I always “try” to be civil – even-so I have been called a baby killer, racist and more in here.

            My bonefides – I am not in the gun business but I teach shooting some(on a volunteer basis) for local Sheriff(including SWAT) and gun permit classes. I am State & DHS licensed and fully checked by FBI, DHS, etc. I have been shot at a few times up in the mountains so I know what that is like also. It really is a more dangerous world/nation out there than it used to be. Thieves, burglars, gangs, etc (especially on drugs) will kill you for no reason at all even if you comply with what they want. We say “Comply and Die”. exa – 2 burglars came in on Dr. wife and 2 young daughters in Conn, tied all to bed, raped all, poured gas on all, set all on fire and left. This was a “low crime” area also – about 3yr ago.

            I shoot IDPA(Intl Defensive Pistol Assoc) competitions – Tactical DEFENSIVE Pistol training.
            Its like SWAT pistol training on steroids. Most SWAT people cannot shoot this well.
            You can go to the IDPA web site and find a club in your area and go watch a match. Good normal average people – nurses, engineers, carpenters, accountants, you name it – usually just good average folks. You could learn a lot there(talk to people) and watching is usually free.
            You would not believe how highly trained many normal non-Police(LE) people are trained now days. You have to shoot your way out of different defensive scenarios and NOT hit
            non-threats/hostages etc. Its an eye-opener.

            *Buying a gun* – To me just owning a gun brings with it a big responsibility to be sure you know how to handle, store, and shoot it and *do-no-harm* to anyone else.
            Includes learning/knowing how, when etc you can shoot in self defense and things like how to not shoot innocent people in the process should you have too, etc.

            So I would suggest – IF you are thinking about buying a gun – that you find a gun store where you can RENT a gun/s(there are some that have indoor ranges) where you can 1st get some training and some experience that will help you to make a purchase decision.
            Actually a good first move “here” would be to rent a gun then go thru the “carry permit” process which includes safety training, the law, and shooting qualifying, bkg checks etc. Although it may be different in your state. Even then you dont have to “own” a gun but would be certified/licensed if you did decide to get one. You normally dont have to do this for just home keeping and home defense but I still highly recommend it.

            As for the NRA creating Hysteria – we dont see it that way – seems to us the Hysteria is already there and the NRA is the only group defending our right to defend ourselves.
            Also like I have said the NRA developed and maintains the best and most complete set of standards, in the country/world on safe gun handling, safety etc and you have to take NRA Instructor Tests to be a certified instructor and that includes Law Enforcement. Ask your local cop how he feels about the NRA, and gun confiscation, etc.

            ps I actually voted for Obama twice but when I learned his people (behind closed doors) have taken on confiscation as the ultimate objective for gun control I have soured on them

          • FredAppell

            Funny you should mention Connecticut. I was born and raised here. Even though we’re a small state, I don’t live anywhere near Cheshire where those murders took place. If you heard rumors stating that the police were outside the home the entire time, those rumors are 100% true. Heads should have rolled for that one. Cheshire is also one of those nice safe little towns, so is Sandy Hook, both shootings occurred by men who lived in the very towns where the shootings took place. That’s why, as I told you earlier, I’m on the fence. I’m not concerned about drug dealers or gangs, my concern is of the less obvious. If I were to ever buy a gun, that would be the reason why but I generally don’t give it much thought. I live next door to an indoor gun range, it’s my understanding that it’s a bit expensive to shoot there
            so that would be out of the question.

            Thank you for all the information you’ve provided tonight. I learned a few things, I appreciate that.

          • DEFENDER88

            Big country, small world, I was born in Torrington, Conn but now live in Tn for the last 60yr.

            For home defense – you should have a plan(including all who live there) as to who is going to do what and where they will be, what you need to say to the police, etc. Normally the best thing to do is to barricade yourself in your bedroom(lock the door if you can) and call the police(tell them what room you are in). In your night stand always keep your gun, tactical light, cell phone, maybe a med kit, some water, etc. If you have kids etc sleeping in other rooms it is more complex – but even more need for a plan.
            And to be really ready – shoot some IDPA matches to practice tactical shooting:)

            A dog (even a small one) that barks if people come around is a great deterrent.

            Trying to “clear” a house is too dangeous for the untrained and could easily get you killed. Let the Police do that.

            Along the lines of “Hardening your home” from bad guys
            Outside you should have a sign posted that states *This Property is Under Video Surveilance*(they dont cost too much and you can find them on-line) even if you dont have the cameras(this a major deterrent to burglars), some lights that shine all night at least some motion activated lights(they are fairly cheap also). Clear all bushy shrubs bad guys can hide behind, etc. Secure all windows and doors especially at ground level, perhaps use bars for back windows and doors.

            Also be leary of people who come to your door and ask to use phone, pose as service people, etc. Dont let “anyone” in you dont know. ps most burglars come during the daytime. And some will watch your house for a pattern of coming and going.

            I have 6 cameras(with sound, motion activation alarms, night vision, etc) with 2 TV Monitors.

            I also recommend you get a good Tactical Light. One for the car and one for the night stand. Most good ones made here(U.S.) are $50-$100 but I found a good Chinese one that you can get on Amazon for about $20 (Light, Batt, charger) – look for Ultrafire WF-502B (5 Mode)(High, Med, Low, Strobe, SOS). In Strobe Mode you can dis-orient an intruder. It uses a thumb switch on the back end of the barrel. Also the front bezel can be used as a weapon and glass breaker. I have several – house, car, one for wife, wife car, emergency bug out bag, etc.(I also give as xmas gifts)

            Out in public I dont normally carry a gun.
            I am also highly trained in hand-to-hand combat and will just depend on that out in public.
            I shoot a S&W M&P(Military&Police) in matches and keep that gun in a box by my front seat in my van.
            So for home and car self defense I keep/have the same guns that I practice with all the time for competitions.
            I have another just like it that I keep under my night stand, I have a tactical gun mounted light on “it” in case I have to “clear” the house of predators some night. And so I can tell/ID wife from burglar:) Wife would prefer I not shoot her:) I want the same gun that I practice with all the time as my primary self defense weapons. I shoot about 500-1000 rounds/month. The avg Police shoot about maybe 50-100 rds/mo. I also have a small Ruger LCP 380 pocket pistol, I put it in my pocket for my church security sweeps.(Last Sun our Pastor said “I sure do feel a lot safer knowing you are out here”:) My wife carries a 5 shot revolver in her purse. It is a purse made with a gun pocket but looks normal.
            I also practice a lot with the Assault Rifle, in case I have to face down a gang *again*.
            I dont look for trouble and hope it does not come here, but if it does, I hope/try to be ready.
            I do know – I refuse to let them have their way with us.

          • FredAppell

            It sure is a small world. You have given me so info that it’s likely I’ll forget much of it but I will retain what I feel to be the most pertinent. I’ve softened a lot over the past year regarding private gun ownership especially in light of a few recent events. These events have convinced me that the most dangerous weapons on the planet are ourselves. As far as getting a dog or home security, that’s out of the question, I live in an apartment building. Even owning a gun may violate my lease, I’m not sure but I’m responsible for an elderly mother and we receive a lot
            of calls from ongoing scams and one never knows where that will lead. I work full time during the day so there are definite concerns when I’m not around. Moving is not an option either. Anyway, I don’t have any disposable cash lying around to even consider getting a gun licence and purchasing a gun at this time but maybe in a year or two when more of my debt is paid down I can consider it.

          • DEFENDER88

            Believe me I do understand not having any “extra” money.

            Considering that. Some cheap ways for you to upgrade your level of security/self defense at this time might include:

            A) Learn some effective hand-to-hand moves that can stop any threat that is close by
            B) Increased Awareness levels which I will explain below

            A) Hand to Hand Combat/Defense
            I am assuming you dont have money or time for 3yrs of Karate lessons. Dont worry I have done that too but this stuff/thing below is even better and a lot cheaper.
            Bob Pierce at has a video *15 Brutal Fight Enders* that he sells for I think about $15-$20 . Money well spent. Fight moves you can learn quick and will take down any size man.
            This stuff is brutal but I know that if anyone attacks me they are going to be willing to kill me to get what they want and might even kill me if I comply”Comply and Die”. So I am not going to be worried about how bad I hurt him. I will do enough to be able to escape. If someone gets in your face and stops you you can bet an attack is coming. Dont wait for it.
            Note this stuff is not for the normally good guy who is temporarily emotionally hijacked(pissed) because you cut him off in traffic and wants to fight. This stuff is for the “predators” who will kill you if they dont get what they want.

            B) Awarness levels(States of Awarness)
            Considering all the new threats out in public from simple robery to mass killings – I now live guided by a hirarachy of awareness levels when I am out in public.

            I try to never be in State 1 – White – Unless safe at home.
            In public, I try to stay in State 2 – Yellow – Awake and Aware of what is around me but relaxed and not worrying my self to death about it. You can comfortably operate in this state for extended periods.

            Levels/States 1-5
            My minimum “state” in pubic is now *Yellow*
            1 – White – You are cruising down the street looking at the trees and birds with not a care on your mind. You mind is elsewhere enjoying itself. You know – “Care Free”

            2 – Yellow – You are relaxed but aware of everything that is going on around you. You look at what people (even those in the shadows) are doing and wonder what they may be “up to”. You look for places (at least aware of) places where someone could jump you(dark lonely corners, behind cars at night, etc, etc) Look around before you leave a store and go to your car, etc.
            Look around before you leave your apt. And when you arrive and are about to approach and unlock the door. Scan the area. Are people(maybe “looking” casual) – but lurking anywhere?

            3 – Orange – I have seen a potential threat/s coming my way or I am approaching. Or a potential situation that could develop into a danger. I am looking for buddies, multiple threats that may be lurking.(they usually run in groups). I am looking for potential routs of escape in case I need too and can. I am assessing the potential threat looking for weapons, his strengths weakness/weak areas etc. (can I outrun him? – not likely) If I am with say my wife then I know I am going to have to “stand my ground”.

            4 – Red – I have been confronted with/by an imminent threat that I must react too – And deciding on either fight or flight. My hand is on my gun but I have not pulled it yet. I have decided what I am going to do if necessary to de-escalate, escape or neutralize him/them.

            5 – Black – I am/have been directly threatened and fear I could be seriously injured or killed. My gun is out and I am taking aim. If unarmed I am going to attack 1st – No nice guy, give him the first punch here(it could be the last thing I ever see). Never give them the first punch.
            After I have escaped – leave area(dont want to deal with his buddies) Call police asap make report of the incident. If someone gets in your face and stops you you can bet an attack is coming. Maybe a fist, bat, knife, gun, ?? Dont wait for it – hit first.

            In Summary – Try to be aware of things so you can avoid confrontations if possible.
            *The best fight or gun fight you can be in is the one you avoid.*

            My mom is 84yo and lives alone. I taught her how to handle and shoot a spare 38cal revolver I had(she was excited and very happy and said she felt a lot better/safer about living alone). Bought her a Tactical light and showed her how to use it also. Taught her how to go/retreat to her back bedroom, lock the door if possible but get low behind the bed, with the gun, light and phone and call the cops. Every time I visit her I run her thru the drill.

            I would suggest you get one as soon as possible(after you learn about them:)
            You can get a pretty good cheap 9mm or 40 cal gun for about $150. My standard M&P cost new $600. My Match M&P $1,200+.
            You can get a functional, cheap 9mm or 40cal for about $150. Brand is *HIGHPOINT* Heavy, ugly, called a Ghetto-Blaster(gangs use them), No respectable match shooter would ever own one but if it works and is all you can afford – it is better than nothing. For Mom(1st teach her) though I would recommend a good 5 or 6 shot revolver, 38 cal – you can get one on-line for about $500. You can also consider a shotgun(minimum 20gauge, 12 gauge better)(20gauge if mom is going to use it) for about $200-$300.

            My last note is on the NRA.
            Much of the info I have shared with you has come from my various Qualification courses(Gun safety, handling, storage, use etc, the law, ethics, etc) I had to take from the NRA to get my State/Fed etc Certifications. You see the NRA is actually necessary for and good at teaching gun safety info and is not all bad:)

          • DEFENDER88

            If you do try guns out. Dont let the salesman just “sell” you something.
            Guns are like cars – do you need a truck or a van or a race car? – he should ask you what you need it for and have a discussion about that.

            Generally I want:
            In the home – Full size semi-auto 9mm or 40cal pistol for in the home.
            In the car – Same as above.
            Concealed carry – Compact 9mm or 40cal usually 10-12 rds cap.
            Pocket pistol – 380 cal semi-auto pocket gun, usually 6rds cap.
            Competition – Full size, extended slide, adj sights, light trigger job, grip tape, tuned, etc.

            If I was told I could only own *1* gun – it would be an Assault Rifle (Civilian version). I could use it to hunt(large and small game) and for self defense. It is the best rifle for both. With 2-3 30rd magazines. How many rounds will you need if a gang of 5 comes to your home and they all have rifles? ps That happened to me.

            As for pistols – Old style Revolvers are good if “you” are good ie a VERY good shot and have advanced reloading techniques down pat and have been in combat before(but it beats nothing). Other-wise a good semi-auto in 9mm, or 40cal with min of 2-3 standard capacity magazines like 17rds for 9mm, 15rds for 40 cal.

            Pistols – Some good pistols(very depedable and not too expensive) – Smith & Wesson M&P(full size), S&W Shield(compact), Glock 23 or 22(lot of police carry). I shoot 9mm(since I shoot a lot of competition and its cheaper than 40 or 45) and has ok stopping power if you can shoot strait.

            Ammo – Most police now carry 40cal hollow point. Hollow points tend to stay in the threat you are shooting at and not over-penetrate/(shoot-thru) and hit innocent bystanders.

  • disqus_ivSI3ByGmh

    So far, the only candidates that the NRA has sworn to break that did break were candidates already so weak on their own positions that a a corpse could beat them. To quote Sarah Palin, “Grow a pair.”

    • stcroixcarp

      So the real health issue here is weak willy men who compensate with a BIG gun. The NRA are the Weak Willys.

      • DEFENDER88

        Yes there are some who think it makes them big and tough.
        Most of that kind dont have a clue what a REAL gun fight is like and would sh*t their pants. But most gun owners are good, honest, law abiding folks who just want to protect themselves if necessary. But, and it seems you and many others in here dont really have a clue here either who sets and maintains the standards for gun safety in this country. “LIke it or not” – It is the NRA, Even for Law Enforcement. Ask your local cop.

  • option31

    Agreed, this is outrageous! Guns are NOT a health issue. AIDS, obesity, diabetes, cancer, STD’s are, so why bring the gun issue in when NONE of these have are even close to be solved?

    • disqus_ivSI3ByGmh

      Considering gunfire is the prime cause of death of young urban males, I would say that guns are a health issue.

      • option31

        While each death is tragic, to state guns are a major issue is crazy. You are disregarding/minimizing all cancer deaths, AIDS deaths, diabetes deaths, and their associated health problems. The gun deaths you are refering to are mostly drug dealers/ users. So the solution to mitigating these deaths is to take the profit out of them by re-legalizing them. I’ll bet he’s NOT even close to putting that idea in the mix.

      • DEFENDER88

        The PRIME cause is VIOLENCE. And some 95% of gun crime is drug and/or gang related – ie your young urban males.

      • DEFENDER88

        If guns are a health issue and the Cause of crime, then we need to take them away from the Police.

  • Grannysmovin

    When will “we the people” start electing men and women to office who represent us and not special interest groups, corporations and BIG money individuals who are trying to purchase our Government. Does anyone in D.C. have the distinction of being honest and independent enough to stand up and say enough……and all you hear is crickets.

    • joe schmo

      When we start researching the best candidate for the job. That means not always the wealthiest or the person who has his hands in the Corps pockets. We can’t always listen to the media. Television knowledge gets us no where fast….

  • ps0rjl

    I am so sick of the NRA. A long time ago the NRA was a useful organization who spoke about gun safety and helped organize and teach gun safety classes. Now they are nothing more than a shill for the gun and ammo manufacturers. Look at their leadership. LaPierre is a great protector of our nation but when he was a young man he chose to avoid serving his country. Ted Nugent shit his pants to avoid serving in Vietnam and is now a right wing lunatic. The 2nd Amendment was written when we had a frontier to protect and as someone else pointed out we didn’t even have semi-automatic weapons let alone assault weapons. We definitely need a ban on assault weapons and stricter background checks. And before someone accuses me of being some bleeding heart liberal, I have two shotguns in my house and am a Vietnam veteran and proud Marine.

    • DEFENDER88

      Better background check system I could agree too but,
      If you are Marine then you should know the civilian AR is not a true Assault Rifle and functions no different from a stardard semi-auto hunting rifle. Most civilians do not own the Military Grade *Assault* Rifle. There already is and has been a BAN on military grade Assault Rifles.
      Would you arm 3rd Infantry Div with the civilian gun and send them against the Chinese, Russians with full auto AK’s? NO
      Back then(200 yr ago) the Musket.WAS the Assault Rifle “of the day”. And everyone had one. And everyone came to Lexington and took a shot.
      Apparently you have not taken any civilian or police gun safety training. If you had you would know The NRA still sets the standads for gun safety and training even for police..

      • ps0rjl

        I still stand by my original assertion that the NRA has become a mouthpiece for the gun and ammo manufacturers. The manufacturers are their main concern. I do know the difference between military assault weapons that are fully automatic and the civilian assault rifle, but I don’t think we need the civilian kind with large capacity clips. I also believe we need stricter background checks on people buying these weapons.

        • joe schmo

          So what! Just like Al Gore is the spokesperson for ‘Global warming,’ and he has made tons of money on your belief of it.

          Stricter background checks on people buying these weapons? Some states already are doing this. Do you really think criminals will follow suit? I rather doubt it. Just like the Liberals believe everyone would sign up for Obamacare and just like the Liberals thought that all the people in Connecticut would just register their weapons. Not! The officials were shocked. Life doesn’t ebb and flow around the Liberal agenda. Remember we live here too…..and obviously, we think different than you…

      • stcroixcarp

        Why would you send deer hunters into the woods with any kind of semi-automatic rifles? Isn’t hunting supposed to be a sport not a blood lust orgy?

        • joe schmo

          That’s not the point. The point is if you start with one restriction others will follow and that is what the Conservative side is against…

          • stcroixcarp

            Why are conservatives so willing to enact restrictions on voting, if one restriction will just lead to another? In my state the conservatives have tried to pass voter ID laws, and have actually restricted the hours and days that the polls can be open.

          • joe schmo

            …and in my state it is an illegal free for all. Where the illegals have more rights than citizens. Perhaps Conservatives are worried about more of the same old same old. Because we all know that many immigrants from south of the border are very ‘socialist.’ They will show up at the polls and vote for Liberals. They also sign up for every freebie available to them in this state. Give me a break! You have to live it to see it. So I believe there needs to be some restrictions. Whenever and where ever I am on line that seems to be one of the biggest issues: Immigration reform and the fact that we don’t want it on our end.

          • jmprint

            That’s a psycho mentality.

          • joe schmo

            I told you, you have to live it to see it. Apparently, you live in lalaland. We are amongst the nonnatives. We have been pushed out of jobs. We know the colleges cater to them. We know that even though they pull a paycheck they live for the freebies. They love getting free healthcare. They get more than we do. Is that fair? I know this because we have seen these things and also lived through them. Give me a break….psycho mentality. You don’t even know what you are talking about. Need to be in our shoes for awhile….believe me its an eye opener.

          • jmprint

            Are you in a red state?


      This writer seconds all above contents.

      • Paul Bass

        Wow, gun-owners who aren’t lunatics, how refreshing!

    • joe schmo

      Well, the US is looking more and more like a remake of the Wild Wild West everyday. Go ahead take away those weapons and see where it gets you. The criminal element will still have them and/or they will use baseball bats, knives and just about any other thing they can think of to kill or maim. Get real, it’s the mentality of people that commit these crimes and, of course, our Liberal laws. The only way people will get rid of their weapons is through force (then you have a suppressing Government at the helm) or when we can walk the streets of Watts or Compton at night and feel safe. How foolish can you be. No common sense…..and you are a Vet? Good Lord don’t you realize when they get rid of one weapon others will follow. Carving away little by little every once of freedom we have left. It is an amendment, it comes with the Country. Remember Love it or Leave it?

      • jmprint

        take away those weapons… who is taking weapons? And why would you think that if someone wants to protect their children (from weapons that are not meant for hunting), does not love their country.

        • joe schmo

          Psycho mentality! I beg to differ. Yours is a psycho mentality. You know damn well that this Country has a 2nd amendment. Seems you all want to change everything that was written in the original Constitution. The Founders wrote it the way they did because they knew these sort of issues would come up.

          Obama wants to ‘transform America.’ Yah, he sure has…into what? A dictatorship! A looser of a Country which when he gets done with it will barely be last rate. He wants us to be like Europe. No thanks. I know very well how Europe runs because I have family there. In the past, Europe always wanted to be like America because America was unique. Nowadays, do you really think America is respected internationally? Not at all.

          Everyone in this country has had weapons since it was Founded. It has never been an issue for decades and decades. Do you know why there is all this insanity going on? BECAUSE OF ALL THE LIBERAL LAWS. I can bring up statistic upon statistic proving that countries that have gun rights have far less crime than those who have none.

          You know what, Putin has a clue. He knows what the scoop is. He is a leader! Obama is a wimp and the beginning of the end. Get your head out of the sand. I see nothing that man has done, but set the wheels in motion in bringing us down. No, the joke is on you and you cannot even see it…. Geez,

          • jmprint

            Then move to Russia and take your shit load of guns with you. Your kind is not needed in this society, sociopaths are a dime a dozens. The only laws that have been passed are against women. President Obama is only doing what is better for this country as a whole and not just for the elite, as your cronies like to do.

          • joe schmo

            The other way around. Take your senseless Liberal/progressive agenda and take it to Countries that really need your help like….Mexico (where you can help the poor, organize and help clean the environment), Africa(where you can help the poor, clean it up, help save species from extinction and give direction), China(help clean the air), India (where you can help the poor). You want to change the planet go somewhere where they can use your help. We don’t want your stinkin Communism infiltrating this Country and changing it. Remember that type of socialism did not work in Russia.

            Huh? Against women? No, if anything empowering women. Doing what is better for the Country?….LOL Where is it better. It is going right down into the cesspool. An economic catastrophe.

            As for the 1%. I have repeated this countless times. You people have all the 1%. This is the biggest joke on you all that there is:

            And the three richest men in America – Warren Buffett, Bill Gates and Larry Ellison – all are liberals.

            This runs contrary to the media fiction that the rich people in America are Republicans. This fiction is repeated over and over in the
            media in order to win over ignorant people to the Democrat party. And there are plenty of them, mostly among the angry, envious poor; in the
            agitated and shrinking middle class; and in the perpetually enraged labor union movement.

            ‘Replacing the shrinking class of capitalist rich are the socialist rich who do not actually “make things” or “provide resources” that the
            society needs. In fact, the socialist rich largely shun production altogether. They are mostly urban elites (New York, San Francisco,
            Follywood) who don’t get their hands dirty building power plants or constructing homes or cutting trees or mining coal or building railroads.

            In fact many of today’s socialist rich are environmentalists who do not even believe in the extraction of resources. This happens even
            though they use more resources than anyone, like Oprah Winfrey flying around in her private jet while showcasing Al Gore on her TV show and
            supporting bans on oil production across the US.

            ‘These socialists do not get rich through wealth creation like Henry Ford did but by taking for themselves larger and larger chunks of America’s existing wealth through wealth appropriation. And they indeed are getting richer as America gets poorer.’


            Read the rest if you dare….LOL

            ….and you can take your one-sided narcissistic world view that has no regard for anyone who believes differently than you and stuff it.

            “A fool’s paradise is a wise man’s hell.” Yup, that just about says it all…..

          • jmprint

            No, I think I’ll just stay here in my country that I love and cherish and the people of God that help make it a better world for all. So you blow a little steam because OMG you have to live with other ethnic groups that aren’t as privileged as you, and since your job is to make others miserable then stay there in your black hole, with your little black heart, mean spirited, egotistic self…and God Bless, I will pray for you.

          • joe schmo

            Then stop complaining about the US and help us take it back to being what was America. You people always want to save the planet. Then start in a place where there is real devastation.

            Remember you are not the only ones living on this planet in this Country. Our ideals stand true to everything the Founding fathers wanted for it. You are the ilk that want to change what’s been working for over 200 years to our benefit, or have you forgotten that. Before the divide your Man has thrown in our faces.

            Bullshit on what you say about the ethnic groups…. Aren’t as privileged? They have more rights and ways to get ahead than they ever have. In case you haven’t noticed, we have some good ones on the Conservative side. They certainly have more common sense than you. I would vote for Allen West and Ben Carson in a heartbeat. Bobby Jindal is awesome as is Ted Cruz….. and you would call THEM names.

            Mean spirited and black heart? Not really. You assume to know how people are when you really don’t. Our problem with this situation is the fact that things are getting worse and worse economically and you still refuse to believe that Obama has made some major boo boos. Not what I grew up with.

            I do agree with praying. We better pray because, it is getting to the point, where there is not a way back….and who do you think is suffering the most….the very people you assume to want to help, namely, the poor.

          • jmprint

            You need to stop rambling, you are really starting to sound very, very sick, keep it up, maybe the man with the straight jacket will find you. You are a total idiot. Keep loving your Ted Cruz, Ben Carson, Bobby Jindal and beloved Allen west. President Obama is 1000 times better as a human being then ALL 5 of you put together. Now go get a life, nothing you say is worthwhile. (spit)

    • lemstoll

      ..a ‘ Patriot’s” weapon of choice…

    • bhaggen

      This just in. State Sen Yee (D-San Francisco) leading gun control advocate, was arrested at his home by the FBI on charges of illegal firearms trafficking.

  • Larry Cowden

    For a Marine not to know the difference between the rifles is incredibly rediculous. Assault rifles, those with full automatic fire, are completely different from the civilian versions of the AR15 and AK47. Furthermore, if you didn’t know before, a law abiding citizen can obtain the permits and license to own and shoot fully automatic firearms such as the M16A1, AK47 and others. And people do own and use them. And those legally owning such firearms have not committed any crimes. Background checks do not need to be tightened up or made more restrictive. It is proven fact criminals DO NOT buy directly from licensed FFL dealers that do background checks. Their guns are obtained in all cases illegaly by theft, murder or illegal channels. The 2nd Amendment was NOT WRITTEN BECAUSE WE HAD A FRONTIER! Jarhead! We still have frontiers! It was written to protect the rights of citizens to keep and bear arms to defend against any future oppressive government that may come to power domestically or from abroad. And it gave us the right to defend our lives, our homes and families from any and all threats to them. Guess it takes a Retired CPO to school you on that!

    • DEFENDER88

      Well and true said.

      • leadvillexp

        Well said. Also flintlocks were the assult weapon of their day. Should the American Colonists have been only allowed to have bows and arrows for hunting? If so we would still be under British rule.

  • ridemybroom

    as i have said many times in the past….let the mofos have their guns and what have you…but…take away all the ammo…this will not step on anyone’s constitutional rights if that even existed for people to carry weapons around….that was only in the constition in those days when there was no such force as police and what have you…today it is a different story…it ‘s an antiquated law that needs to be changed and i think the president should have that power to change that law…in this country it would be the right thing to do…we have all seen first hand what guns and people do when guns are in their hands and sometimes even in the right hand…one day comes along and you will see what happens when your brother…your mother , maybe even your father gets killed as a result of guns and im sure lots of you have seen this already and all too well…and your children as we have seen…its time to stop this obsession with guns and the likes…time to ammend that constitution with a new law that says if anyone get caught with a gun or similiar device they shall serve 5 years or better in jail and/or a fine up to 25,000 us dollars…thats what we need… not some gun toting Nikki Haley or Sarah Palin who sit in day in and day out to promote gun carrying in this nation….

    • DEFENDER88

      Totally ignores the facts on the ground, and the forces at work.
      Heart-felt I suppose but how simplistically ignorant. Take away the means of potection and defense from honest citizens who own guns for self defense and let the thieves, burglars, killers and gangs take over. Now theres a solution.

      • joe schmo

        Totally agree. It’s kind of like stating. We have to pass the law to see what’s in it. Looser mentality. No forethought or research goes into the emotional wits of a Liberal. Let’s just do it, full force ahead into LaLa Land…… then we the people suffer the consequences. Until there is not a stitch of crime in this Country, I will never think to give up the 2nd Amendment rights. Even then I wouldn’t. It is part of what we are. Get over it!

        ‘I don’t like this Uncle Sam, I don’t like green eggs and ham.’ LOL

      • lemstoll

        NRA weapon of choice:

  • jointerjohn

    All of us on both sides of this issue better wake up to reality. If we keep wasting our time arguing over guns while the corporations export our jobs and and finish destroying the middle class, guns will no longer matter. To my fellow liberals out there I say, let these boys have their blue-steel pacifiers and lets spend our political clout on the economy. Go ahead, fill you house up with guns and ammo if it makes you feel good. It won’t do a damn thing to get your kid a decent job that includes health insurance and a pension. This is one great big distraction to keep us bickering while the mega-rich make off with all the loot. Wise up you on the left and on the right, you’re both being played for chumps with this subject.

    • lemstoll

      Taking aim….

  • lemstoll

    Dr. Vivek Hallegere Murthy’s view of weapons of mass destruction used to create emergfency room patience that constitutes a national health crisis.

    • lemstoll

      The reality of the absurdity…

      • lemstoll

        Take your pick of the madness…

      • DEFENDER88

        Why do you people try to deceive like this?
        You show a huge death count here by Assault Rifles.
        This “Visual” represents a Bare Face, Flat out LIE.
        Rifles, as a group, account for less than 4% of gun crime.
        Assault Rifles as a Sub-Group of Rifles account for less then 1% of gun crime.

        The problem is definitely NOT “so called assault rifles” which we civilians dont have anyway.
        We have semi-auto rifles just like semi-auto hunting rifles.
        They just LOOK like Assault Rifles but they, in reality, ARE NOT.

        95% of gun crime is associated with drugs and gangs and is with hand guns.

        Attacking Assault Rifles and guns is a waste of time and resources. The problem is The Propensity for Violence.
        That, and its underlying causes, is where we need to concentrate our efforts.
        And you continue to attack the NRA when you should be using your intellect to concentrate on reducing the Violence and its causes that propagate Crime.

        • lemstoll

          No deception. Truth. Guns kill people. LIE: 95% of gun crime is associated with drugs and gangs and is with hand guns.

          • DEFENDER88

            No lies.
            I can respect someone who has an honest different opinion from me.
            But when you completely discount the facts and reason/logic, it puts you in
            the “I have an agenda to push category” for whatever reason(political I presume).
            Your agenda is even more dangerous then the actual killers.
            I will concede you are intelligent, clever and creative. I just wish you would use that to help solve the real root problems.

            The facts are:
            – Some 95% of gun violence is drug and/or gang related and by hand guns, not rifles.
            – And less then 4% of gun crime is by rifles. And less then 1% by fau-assault rifles.
            These figures are not “exact” but close.

            You intuitively know that the *Propensity for Violence* is the underlying problem with gun crime.
            It is the underlying problem with all murder and violent crime.

            This postulate has been substantiated in areas where guns were removed and did nothing to curb the rate of violence and murder the Rate stays the same or increases. True – the rate of “gun” violence dropped but so what? The violence and murder continues. Violent people just find another way. In Africa it is typically Machetties.

            So it seems you are not really against Violence and Murder – you are just against guns.

            I call that an Agenda. Not a solution to the killing and mahem.

            The millions on millions of honest gun owners in this country do not kill with their guns. Since they are mostly non-violent people and have them for defense only. Removing those guns WILL increase the murder rates and violence visited on the millions of honest former gun owners.
            The “Propensity” for violence by violent people does not change it will still be at the same level. AND they will then know that honest people will be unable to defend themselves.

          • lemstoll

            You “Stand your ground” in an obvious manner.

        • lemstoll

        • lemstoll

          “Defenders” of the 2nd Amendment….

  • charles king

    People you better start doing some (Critical Thinking)What? the hell is going on in this Country When? Your President can not get the Senate to pass a gun control law that is needed in the Country. Where? is your Democracy. What? are you the People going to do about a bunch of Plutocracts with MONIES controlling your Representives and Senators. Who? the hell is in charge. Why? can’t the State’s Commissioners stop this mis-directing, I Do Not -C- an out for the country that is Why? you the people better start using your only Hope are your VOTE and some critical thinking cause your Democracy is the only defense you have against these (greedy Capitalistic Pigs, Plutocracts, misguided Republicans and Democracts Representives) Thank You are the magic words in my book. I Love Ya All. Mr. C. E. KING

  • lemstoll

    Who benefits from assault rifles?

    • lemstoll