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Friday, January 18, 2019

WASHINGTON — President Obama went big in offering a remarkably comprehensive plan to curb gun violence, and good for him. But his announcement Wednesday is only the beginning of a protracted struggle for national sanity on firearms. Extremists have controlled the debate on guns for many years. They will do all they can to preserve a bloody status quo. The irrationality of their approach must be exposed and their power broken.

Far from acting as if his work was now done, the president made clear that he is fully invested in seeing his agenda realized — and fully prepared to lead a national movement to loosen the grip of resignation and cynicism in the face of brutality and carnage. Gun violence is not some “boutique” issue, as it is occasionally called. We are in danger of having mass shootings define us as a nation. As a people, we must rise up against this obscenity.

This fight is especially challenging for many who view themselves as “moderates” or “centrists.” Moderation is a thoroughly honorable disposition, and Obama’s proposals are moderation incarnate. By international standards, they are very cautious. The president did not call for registering all guns or confiscating assault weapons. He strongly endorsed the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Second Amendment right to bear arms. He is operating within a broad consensus about what is possible and what can work.

An assault weapons ban received 38 Republican votes in the House in 1994 and is backed by 58 percent of Americans, according to a Washington Post/ABC News poll. Were those Republicans outside the mainstream? And what about that 58 percent of Americans? The poll also found that 65 percent favored a ban on high-capacity magazines, another part of the Obama plan, and 88 percent favored closing the gun show loophole, part of the effort to make sure there are background checks for all gun purchases.

But the lobbies that purport to speak for gun owners (while actually representing the interests of gun manufacturers) don’t care what the public thinks. They tried to pretend the president’s ideas are radical. And it shows how perverse our national conversation can become when those who speak in the name of civility, reason and bipartisanship give in to timidity.

Too often, moderation has become a synonym for cowardice. Too often, moderates lack the guts to define the sensible middle of the road themselves — as Obama has done on the gun issue — and then defend it. Instead, they yield to the temptation to calibrate where everyone else stands before deciding what they believe. This allows extremists who lack any shame to drag our discourse off the road entirely, into a ditch of unreason, fear and invective.

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285 responses to “Obama Takes On Extremism On Guns”

  1. rustacus21 says:

    This was the most intense press conference yet, if only b/c of the backdrop of the NRA commercial now being aired, attempting to further divide America against itself. The fact that the NRA has fashioned itself as ‘king-maker’, has no morality, no shame, no humanity, if they can resist the urge to be ‘human’ enuff to involve themselves in resolving a problem they created. They are unDemocratic in every sense of the word, protecting derelicts & psychopaths, over law-abiding, responsible gun owners (such as myself) & rejecting universal purchase screenings, that prevent murderous kooks access to guns. But the lowest point is how they continue making themselves the ‘victim’, obsessing about the Second Amendment, when this doesn’t interrupt in ANY FORM OR FASHION, gun owners, collectors or sport competitors who SIMPLY, sanely adhere to America’s LAW & ORDER imperative. Were we to assume the NRA would approve of New York’s new gun laws? They chose to avoid whatever input may have been relevant, tho I doubt they would have been helpful in keeping things at a ‘CONSTRUCTIVE’ debate/dialogue level. But the commercial, a despicable, monstrous piece of trash, will appeal to the normal suspects in stocking their hate, paranoia & racism. America has reached a shameful low, not just for what we did to OURSELVES during the 2001-current period, but allowing this ‘manufactured’ anarchy that is now an increasing menace to our Democracy, if we fail to support our President, Democratic/Independent Senate majority & by voting overwhelmingly in 2014, to rid ourselves of the curse of (neo-con) conservatism in American politics, once & FOR ALL!!!

    • BuzzLOL says:

      .. Hey! Pres. Obama insisting on armed guards for HIS kids in school, but against armed guards for OUR kids… is FAIR GAME to mention…!!

      • oldtack says:

        You illiterate dumb Ass. Protection is afforded for All children whose father is President. He doesn’t insist no more than the Speaker insist on a private plans – it’s the law.

        • BuzzLOL says:

          .. You uneducatedly dufusly missed the POINT! WHY is he AGAINST OUR kids having the SAME protection???

          • Right on BuzzLOL! If you are wealthy or important it is ok to have armed body guards. But it is not ok for ordenary fokes to be armed to defend our children.

          • neeceoooo says:

            No you missed the point, we shouldn’t need armed guards in our schools to protect our children. These types of weapons should not be in the hands of anyone especially someone, who is a danger to the children or anyone else for that matter. This has nothing to do with whether our President has security for himself and his children, this is about our children.

          • lana ward says:

            Criminals will Always have guns no matter what laws are passed. Our kids should be protected, they’re more important to us than Obamas’ kids are

          • TZToronto says:

            I think the simple fact that children are not being murdered by the dozens in schools every day suggests that armed guards are not needed there. What’s needed is a way to keep the crazies from killing people in schools, theaters, hospitals, shopping malls, political rallies. Some of these killers are criminals, true, but the ones who commit mass murder often obtain their weapons legally. . . . Of course, if you’re concerned about unemployment, then hiring security guards for every school in the USA would cut into that problem in a big way. The fact that a lot of crazies would apply for the jobs shouldn’t be a concern, should it?

          • lana ward says:

            There aren’t that many mass shootings, but more poor blacks were gunned down last year in Chicago than all of the mass shootings in the last decade. The MSM and Obama have no interest in banning the hand guns responsible for those murders. Why? If gun bands save lives, why not those guns? Why band the guns that haven’t killed as many???

          • TZToronto says:

            Good point. I don’t think a ban on assault weapons will mean that those who already own them will have to give them up. I also don’t think that a ban on handguns will force the people who have them to give them up either. Sadly, the gun violence that the U.S. has seen (and perpetrated) for years will continue. The only way to reduce the number of guns will be to ban sale of guns to the public as well as the inheritance of guns. When you die, your inherited guns must be turned in. But that ain’t gonna happen. So get used to violent crime among young black men and the occasional mass murder by deranged killers.

          • So you want to take the guns from the responsible citizens so only the crazies ans criminals are armed. Am I missing something?

          • VulpineMac says:

            How many of those murders in Chicago have seven bullets in every victim’s body?

          • lana ward says:

            No matter, they’re dead

          • VulpineMac says:

            It matters very much; all those dead in Chicago are NOT the results of mass murder.

          • lana ward says:

            More poor blacks were gunned down in Chicago last year(506) than in ALL the mass shootings over the last decade. So WHY isn’t omuslim and the MSM interested in banning those hand guns??? Hand guns have killed more people

          • VulpineMac says:

            Still doesn’t change the fact that those were one-on-one encounters done over a period of a year, vs nearly 100 killed or injured in Colorado and 20 killed in Connecticut over the course of only a few minutes each. I’m not saying those deaths in Chicago are not important, but those are 500 separate crimes where 20% of that number were killed in just two separate crimes. And exactly who were the targets in the majority of those Chicago murders? Were they innocent moviegoers? Were the schoolteachers and children? What were the other factors of those 500 killed in Chicago? Was it a single shooter just wandering the city killing at random?
            What I am saying is that it is two completely different kinds of crime and these mass murders simply shouldn’t be happening–especially when in each case the hints were in plain sight to people close to the case. You want to stop the murders in Chicago? Try getting your community together and petition your city legislators to put more effort in law enforcement. There are dozens of gun control laws already on the books. Enforce them! Guess what? That means more cops. More cops means more salaries. More salaries means more taxes. Are YOU willing to pay more for your safety?

          • lana ward says:

            That’s why everyone should be armed. Defend yourself. Criminals will always have guns

          • lana ward says:

            Check out–NACHUNLIST

          • TonyinMO says:

            TZ the problem is that everything that 0bama has done by exec. order will do nothing to stop the problem.

          • TZToronto says:

            You’re not wrong.

          • neeceoooo says:

            It is very unfair to say who’s children are more important, they are all important. You of all people should know that.

          • old_blu says:

            If your kid and my kid get kidnapped although it would be horrible the ransom is not going to be in the form of something nuclear that can destroy the world.

          • lana ward says:

            So Obamas’ kids aren’t more important to him than are kids are to him?? That’s what you are saying

          • TonyinMO says:

            What has 0bama done with these exec orders that will protect our children. Please name one thing?

          • VulpineMac says:

            Maybe you should read those executive orders for yourself. While no law will be perfect, better enforcement of existing laws would be an improvement, no?

        • lana ward says:

          Hi oldtrack!! Type in,–The United States program for general and complete disarmament in a peaceful world,–and–Freedom from war 1961. See if you think it’s true-let me know!!

        • TZToronto says:

          Not only that, but the Secret Service guards are trained–extremely well trained–to protect those whose lives have been entrusted to them. If they ever had to stop a potential killer, they’d know what to do, and they’d do it well. The security guard at the local elementary school is more likely to get killed himself–or kill some kids accidentally–than he is to stop a determined mass murderer. And in stand-your-ground states, the guy delivering bread to the school cafeteria is likely to get blown away if he’s not the usual delivery guy, just because a trigger-happy security-guard-wanna-be-cop felt threatened.

      • lana ward says:

        Check out the site–Alex Jones’ Infowars,there is a war on your mind. This will tell you what Obama plans to do to all Americans!!

        • truthhunter13 says:

          Ma’am, please do something productive. Nobody in here will listen to you. Why don’t you just go outside and hold a sign that says how much you hate our President.
          You are a product of faux news.
          Your kids are more important than my kids?. Wow!!. That only goes to show how heartless you are.

          • lana ward says:

            Are Obamas’ kids more important to him than our kids are to him??? I would think so, wouldn’t you??

          • lana ward says:

            What is heartless, is murdering babies before and while they are being born, as Omuslim loves to do. Now that is heartless!!!!

          • truthhunter13 says:

            Now I know why Fern picked on you. You are being consumed by hate and bitterness. Please seek help!!. Bye!!

      • frida says:

        Do you possess any firearm? If yes, you must be on top list of those to be checked their mental health. What you have written here gives an hint about the state of your head.

      • rustacus21 says:

        Hmmm… The PRESIDENT of the United States. A BLACK guy. The target of irrational, non-policy opposition the LAST 4 years. Opposition that could VERY WELL be racist inspired. A nation w/a history of irrational extremists threatening/carrying out violence against popular representatives & supportive citizens. I don’t know what country or even what part of the country U’r from, but U seem particularly susceptible to rite-wing propaganda to suggest such inferences of ‘why’? W/as much info & history U COULD HAVE ACCESSED B4 repeating, almost WORD 4 WORD, the NRA ad & w/all due respect, there’s only 1 President(ial family). Does that not qualify him/them to NEED – in this poisonous political atmosphere in this country, to ABSOLUTELY NEED… oh never mind… No wonder conservative law makers can’t get their act straight – their voters are Pavlovian “whistle” experiment lab animals that ‘bark’ & ‘salivate’ rite on cue… Just like above…

      • thebunt says:

        Do you believe that the President of the United States needs the secret service to protect him? If so, you must believe that every person in the United States deserves a secret service to protect them. Just following your logic …..

    • Anybody With Good Sense Can See What The NRA Is All About MONEY And That’s Where It Ends!! The Bullshit About The President Kids Is Just As Stupid Asshole Remark Just To Get The CRAZIES To Buy More Guns !! Only The Dumb Brainwashed Idiots Hear Will Fall For Their Bullshit!! Their Answer To Everything Is To Buy More Guns How Stupid Can One Person Be Not To See Thru Their Bullshit!! All Presidents Kids Have Protection!!! Still None Of This Control Action Is Taking Away No Ones Guns But Trying To Put A Stop Or At Lease Slow Down The Killing Done By The CRAZIES!!! ::::::::::: Now You All You Dumb Ass Racist Obama Bashing, Koch Brothers Ass Kissing CRAZIES Think Before You Hit My Reply Button !! Or Get Ready For The Ass Ripping Of Your Life!!!!!!! I Don’t Play With TROLLS!!!! Know That!!!!!!!

      • I am not an NRA member nor do I support the NRA. The NRA ad points to the hypocrisy of the Washington Elitist.

        • lana ward says:

          Type in –Alex Jones’ Infowars-there is a war on your mind. This site will tell you what Obamas’ plans are for Americans. This is the beginning of his confiscation of all guns!! PS- stay away from Fern Woodfork, she is the nastiest person you’ve ever heard if you disagree with her!!!!!

          • old_blu says:

            lana I’ve been on here along time and I’m pretty sure the people on here agree with Fern more than they agree with your right winged rhetoric tea bagger BS. (im just say’n)

            I hear WND calling your name.

          • lana ward says:

            Type in,– Freedom from war 1961, it is a document from our Government. As you will see, it’s very interesting. They may agree with her, but you have to admit, she is one nasty skank!!

          • And You Are A Racist Cock Sucking, Trailer Trash ,Lying Nose Picking ,Koch Brothers Ass Kissing, Cave Dwelling, No Life Having, KKK Stank Troll, You Too Should Have Been Aborted, You Lying Low Life Rush Limpball Nut Licking, Cross Eyed Werewolf Looking, Airhead BITCH!!! Just Keep On With Your Bullshit You Just Might Wake Up And I’ll Be At Your Cave And You Can Bet I’m There To Whoop Your Stink Ass Just Keep Talking To Me Or About Me Cave Dwelling Bitch !! Matter A Fact I Will Call The Animal Police On Your Ass!!! No Way Your Dumb Ass Is Taking Care Of 33 Cats Without Abusing Them!! One Day You May Find The Animal Police At Your Cave And Now You can Get Jail Time For Abusing Animal Bitch!!!

          • lana ward says:

            Call the police!! My cats are fixed, declawed and eat better than I do. And they are taken BETTER care of than your kids!!!Idiot, snitch bitch!!LOL

          • FUCK YOU CRAZY BITCH!! No Way In Hell You Can Take Good Care Of 33 Cats With Your DUMB ASS!! YOU COCK SUCKING BITCH YOU <Most Likely Eating Those Cat!!

          • lana ward says:

            My pets are BETTER taken care of than your kids. Much better looking too!!!!

          • neeceoooo says:

            Just so you know, Alex Jones is not different than Rush Limbaugh and they are both idiots. So why would any intelligent person want to listen to either of these morons let alone, take any advice from either one.

          • FRED says:

            Ignorance knows no bounds–
            If one of your loved ones was injured/killed–PERHAPS–then you understand what President Obama is trying to do.

          • lana ward says:

            My son was shot and killed in a home invasion, I wish to God everyday he had had a gun!! What Obama is doing, is the beginning of complete disarmament. I can’t believe you fools are so taken by this America hater!

          • disqus_9i6pUJ4xMT says:

            ok why didn’t he had a gun. Could he get one or was deniel. He could have gotten a gun for home protection, background check and everything that goes with it.. And by the way Obama is not an America hater. People like you will believe Rush and Jones of their lies just to cause trouble. Sorry for your lost but he could have gotten a gun a while back. And beside he is not taking it away from American people, he is just trying to do something to help curve the violence that happen at Sandy Hook, Colorado, and other mass murders.

          • neeceoooo says:

            Thank you

          • William says:

            I’m a gun owner and I consider myself a moderate, I cannot understand how anyone with a brain in his head would ever want to endorse or in any way align themselves with someone like Jones. He dose not speak for me or anyone I know.

          • I’m A Gun Owner Also !! And What These American Taliban Members Are Spiting Out Of Their Asses Is No Way What The Real People With Any Kind Of Sense Feel!!! They Are So Full Of Shit It’s Sicking!!! 🙁

          • lana ward says:

            More poor blacks were gunned down last year in Chicago than in ALL the mass shootings over the last decade. The MSM and the WH have no interest in banning the hand guns responsible for those murders. Why?? If gun bands save lives, why isn’t Obama banning those guns???

          • nobsartist says:

            Big deal. We have been killing over 500 per year here in detroit for over 40 years.

            this is because the government is paranoid that there might be a revolt soon.

          • lana ward says:

            It is a big deal to those whos’ family member is murdered. You’re heartless!!

          • nobsartist says:

            And you are a fucking idiot but I dont go around publicizing it.

          • lana ward says:

            I’m an idiot?? Did you see omuslim voters gushing how great the inauguration was when it hasn’t even happened yet??? LOL LOL!!!

          • With Her Crazy Ass For A Mother He May Have Killed Her Ass With It!!! When You Teach Hate, Hate Is What You Get In Return!!!

          • neeceoooo says:

            Lana, I am real sorry that you had this tragedy in your life which has made you very bitter but you have to take that bitterness and turn it around or it will eat you up. I know that is probably easier to say than do but for the sake of your sanity, you must. Barack Obama is a wonderful president and if he were not black, I am sure you would probably agree.

          • FredAppell says:

            Neeceooo, it already has affected Lana’s sanity. Every word he/she speaks is full of hate and fear.

          • neeceoooo says:

            You’re right and neither you or I can change that.

          • FredAppell says:

            Neeceooo, i’m not so sure that I was right. I was getting ready to leave work when I was typing. On the way home I reflected upon what I said and it wasn’t right. I let my mouth run afoul in my haste and I am not usually like that. When Lana dropped that bomb about her son I immediately understood so much more about her than she probably intended for us to know (assuming it was true). I don’t regret saying what I did about the train remark because a month ago she told me to step in front of a moving train, I guess something I said must have struck a nerve with with her at the time although my comment wasn’t directed at her. She clearly needs some help and I hope for her sake she gets some. She is listening to all the people that are perpetuating her negative feelings toward the rest of us. I especially like your comment to her when you gave her your condolences, it showed real strength of character on your part.

          • I ‘m Sorry For Her Lost Also!! But lana Is Still Full Of Shit Cause She’s A Racist Gutter Tramp!! And Know How These Thugs Operate This Too May Be A Lie!!! Maybe We Should Look This Up On Pat Dillard Or The Other Hateful Website This Racist Bitch Always Want People To Go To!! I’m Amazed Why The Crazy Bitch Keep Coming Here With Her Bullshit!!

          • FredAppell says:

            I think I got the answer to that. She replied to me as well and admitted that she thinks Liberals are low life scums and she is trying to convert all of you. Well, I was going to try to open up some sort of dialogue with her but it probably isn’t worth the effort. Have a good night Fern.

          • lana ward says:

            I would have loved to had Herman Cain as my President. But he was railroaded just as ALL black conservatives are!!!

          • VulpineMac says:

            You say you wish your son had a gun during that home invasion; why didn’t he? Could it be that HE believed a gun wasn’t necessary? If so, owning a gun would have had no effect on the outcome.

            Or was there some other reason why he didn’t have a gun? Before blaming gun control, maybe you should try to understand WHY he didn’t have a weapon. I’m almost certain that it wasn’t because anyone had taken his guns away.

            I am sorry it happened the way it did, but to blame our government for some individual’s personal choices only belittles that person while making you out as a small-minded, bitter reactionary.

          • lana ward says:

            He didn’t own a gun because he didn’t think he would need one, like many people think. More poor blacks were gunned down last year in Chicago than in ALL the mass shootings over the past decade. The MSM and the WH have no interest in banning the hand guns responsible for those murders. Why?? If gun bans save lives, why not those guns???

          • VulpineMac says:

            Then why gripe when he made his own choice. Again, I am sorry he died that way, but he made his choice and lived the life he wanted.
            As for the guns, have you even looked at the many Executive Orders the President issued. You should be writing your Congressmen to support those orders because THOSE will have far more impact on the handguns most criminals use than any armed guard in our schools. Meanwhile, those laws will also make it harder–note I didn’t say “impossible”–for the mentally unstable to purchase any firearms, including the type used in Newtown.

          • Lana, then you of all people should understand and support background checks, which might have saved your son. Listen to the children and parents of Sandy Hook.

          • lana ward says:

            Criminals will ALWAYS have guns. Do you think they will have background checks?? If those teachers had been armed, those kids would still be alive.

          • nobsartist says:

            I think you are lying.

          • bjbstarr11 says:

            Lana, I am sorry to hear of your loss. I pray you will let the bitterness go. The President is not trying to disarm Ameriica and he is not a hater. You really sound like a racist like some others on this site.

          • lana ward says:

            Thank you!!

          • puzzled21 says:

            How would you propose that he accomplish his goal of confiscating all of our weapons? Will he conduct a door to door search of every home, garage, shed, bunker, barn, cave in the woods etc. Please explain to me the logistics of this plan. Why is it so difficult for those who think as you do to look at a situation from a logical perspective? What you and whoever you have been duped by, are presenting is impossible.

          • William says:

            Its not impossible, its happened in other countries, that being said I don’t believe the President wants to do anything so extreme.

          • puzzled21 says:

            As someone who has been blessed to travel extensively through out the world Ican’t think of one country where the populace have no weapons/guns at all. I am interested to know if there is one though.

          • thebunt says:

            I would announce a buy-back of guns by the government at realistic prices. After a stated time the buy-back would change so that the person that reports a weapon that had not been sold back to the government gets the ‘realistic price’, not the owner. Let the greed of money do the work.

          • lana ward says:

            Go to –The U.S. program for general and complete disarmament in a peaceful world.—Complete disarmament has been done in many countries-America is next

          • Bitch Go To Hell!! You Dumb Ass Cock Sucking Racist ASSHOLE TROLL

          • puzzled21 says:

            It is not possible to have complete/total disarmament. Even if the Government had the capability to search each home individually, it still wouldn’t work. Just consider the people you know that own weapons and what their attitudes are, how easy would it be to get their weapons? They would do whatever they had to do to keep them, bury them in the back yard, hide them in the woods, a cave, conceal them in the very walls of their homes, etc. Besides, the gun manufacturers would never allow this to take and have the goose that laid the golden egg killed off.

          • FredAppell says:

            You think Fern is the only one who gets nasty when someone disagrees with them huh? I haven’t forgotten when you told me to step in front of a train. I have decided that I will take that step only if you hold my hand and step with me. You are a frightened little extremist who sees the world changing and you feel powerless to stop it. I am well aware of Alex Jones and have been for years. He depends heavily on people such as yourself to prop him up to give him credibility. He does it by playing on your fears and exaggerating perceived threats to your liberty’s. I used to be just like you, I believed in every conspiracy theory there was. Once I learned to think for myself I was able to give up those fairy tales. You don’t have to like Liberals or anyone else left of center but remember, you’re the one who came looking for a fight when you signed on to a Liberal sight.

          • neeceoooo says:

            Those are some very good words, Fred. Thank you

          • lana ward says:

            I don’t remember telling anyone to step in front of a train, you have me confused with someone else. That’s the way my brother-in-law died. Your right, this is a liberal site. I try to convert people, but they are SOOOO nasty, I end up getting nasty myself!!. Liberals really are nasty lowlife!!

          • FredAppell says:

            I’m pretty sure it was you that made that comment to me but in case I am wrong i’m sorry. Lana, you really shouldn’t expect people on this forum to be nice to you when you start throwing around insults. If I were to visit a site with opposing political views I would expect to get the same treatment. It is not your place or mine to convert anyone. I have a lot of conservative friends and family who all know where I stand and they all respect me and I them. You get what you give. The Liberals are
            not low life. There are low life that happen to be Liberal but the two are not mutual.

            There are low life in all walks of life. You just need to be willing and able to figure out the difference. I am sorry about your brother-in-law and you have my deepest sympathies for the loss of your son. I can’t even comprehend what kind of hell that is. But that doesn’t excuse you for the way you treat people on this sight. Come here as often as you please but try to be the sensible person you claim you are and see what happens. Have a good night.

          • You Mother Taught Me Well Sea Hag!! You Ass Just Don’t Seem To Get Enough Ass Ripping Sorry Pussy Sucking Nose Picking Ass Digging Bitch!! FUCK YOU!!

          • lana ward says:

            To save America–PRAY omuslim meets his maker SOON!!!!!

        • old_blu says:

          You don’t think that all Presidents kids are protected more so than yours? I’ll bet everyone of them have been, and I wonder why no one yelled about those kids. Back in 1994 no one yelled about the Preidents kids being protected when the same ban was put into effect.

        • mavilasr says:


          • TonyinMO says:

            0bama is a thief too, so what’s your point?

          • mavilasr says:


            You could never understand any point except to make broad unsubstantiated general statements. Giving additional explanation to you will fall on your very deaf ears–thus it’s useless!!!!! It’s best to leave you in your “SOUND AND FURY!!!!”

          • lana ward says:

            If those teachers had been armed, those kids would still be alive.

        • srgm says:

          The DIFFERENCE is that the President’s children are TARGETS, as he is. (And that holds true of ANY president, and their families.)
          No one is looking to kill my children, unless of bona fide crazy decides that today is a good day for SOMEBODY to die, and my kids happen to be in the area. If you are looking for hypocrisy, i think that’s where you should start.

          • lana ward says:

            That day was the day that a bona fide crazy decided that someone was to die and those kids happened to be in the area.–Had those teachers been armed, those kids would be alive

      • sigrid28 says:

        Every war needs it Joan or Arc, and you are ours, Fern. That doesn’t mean we have to sit back while the crazies try to set you on fire. I hope you get to see Rachel Maddow’s troll, so you have an image to associate with the hair-on-fire variety of troll that shills for the NRA. I thought E. J. Dionne gave a just and very heated defense of the president: good for him. Ever since the president’s announcement came out yesterday, I’ve been so relieved. I woke up this morning and said, “The sky this morning is blue shirt blue.” The orders and legislative proposals were comprehensive, far-reaching, and elegant, with lots of moving parts that the mouth-breathing gun enthusiasts won’t understand until they go into effect.

        For example, I heard a Colorado sheriff on CNN this morning, who said he would not enforce any of the president’s mandates. When the anchor said she thought he was not responsible for enacting federal mandates, he acknowledged that, well, that might be the case. “Won’t fewer lethal weapons make it safer for law enforcement? You’ll still have to respond to gun violence in your county won’t you?” Which he also acknowledged.

        The beauty of the president’s action and the legislation proposed by Biden’s committee is it protects us all in spite of our stupid, broken, weak selves–even the trolls.

        • I Have No Problem Speaking Up On Whats Right!! My Parents Raised Me And All The Cussing And Ebonics Is Done As A Warning To No Good Liars!! In No Way I Can Talk Like This Or Write Like This On My Job!! I’m A Nurse!! The Way I Talk Or Type Is The Way People Need To Do If They Want To Get Rid Of Lying Assholes Who Are Pretending Like Their Care!! I Got A Great Job I Make Enough Money To Make Me Happy, Believe Me I Had Lots Of Chances To Dig For Gold But I Rather Take Care Of My Own Ass!! Two Players For The Bears, One Bull Player, Three Millionaires!! But That’s Not How I Was Raised Mo Mom Teacher my Dad Police Force Raise Me !! What Make Me Cuss These Airhead Assholes Out Is The Fact That I Asked Them To Many Time Stop Pushing My Reply Button Talking Out Of The Side Of Their Necks I DON’T Care To HEAR THEIR GOP/Tea Party Brain Washed Bullshit I Don’t Play Well With Racist Assholes NEVER!!

          • old_blu says:

            And that is why you are our bouncer, and a damn good one too my friend. : ))

          • sigrid28 says:

            Dear Fern, The heart wants what the heart wants. We all count on your authenticity and solid liberal bona fides: your unique voice.

      • TonyinMO says:

        STFU you whining douchebag

    • empiremed says:

      Other Tyrants Who Have Used Children As Props

      Obama’s shameless exploitation of children as set pieces is hardly new or original. In fact, tyrants and dictators have used kids as props down through the ages.

      Here are a few more recent examples:

      The Soviet Union’s Joseph Stalin

      China’s Mao Zedong

      Germany’s Adolf Hitler

      Cuba’s Fidel Castro

      North Korea’s Kim Il-sung

      Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez

      Dictator Obama Exploiting the Children for Executive Action on Gun Control

      They are Pro Abortion ,yet they claim they love children ,they prostitute the innocence of children for their own selfish Political gain ,then when they reach Legal Age, they send them off to be slaugtered and maimed in spurious Wars ,manufactured by the lying propaganda machine ,then when they return home from the wars, dont want to know them ,dont support them and treat them like dirt

      • manfred says:

        Guess you left Bush II out, he kissed babies and started an unnessessary war sending soldiers to Iraq with inferior Humvees!

      • lana ward says:

        You need to check out –Alex Jones’ Infowars, there is a war on your mind.”—This is the beginning of Obamas’ confiscation of ALL guns.

      • neusa says:

        I think that you are a little confused, it was Mr Bush who sent our boys to war (an unnecessary one by the way) , not Presidente Obama.

      • robert says:

        empiremed: add one more: George W. Bush looking as if he wanted to run while in that classroom reading to little children on the morning of 9/11. . . Well, he did run immediately after he left the classroom and he and Cheney went into hiding. My bad.

      • William says:

        I agree with you on one point, both sides are trying to use children to prove their point. Its the GOP that is so pro life, at least until you are born, that is where it ends for them. The GOP has never seen a war it didn’t like and when you come back from war the GOP is the first in line to cut your benefits because you are no longer of any use to them.

    • nobsartist says:

      I think they are more concerned with an armed insurrection than they are about these murders. Dont forget, all of these parasites are experts in lying out of both sides of their mouths.

      With all of the working AMERICANS getting fucked on a daily basis by the banks and the governments, they better be concerned.

  2. nobsartist says:

    I would like to see the same action to help the 50 MILLION AMERICANS that have been FUCKED by the banks on mortgages.

    Until then, I really do not give a shit about abortion or gun laws.

    • bjbstarr11 says:


      You are a very foolish person. You would be singing a different tune if the tragedy at Sandy Hook happened to one of your children. This is a very serious matter and you need to get involved.

    • ALTreality says:

      Here, Here!!! If we could only direct some of that paranoid, useless, self-defeating rage against REAL criminals and REAL problems, just think how much we could accomplish! These faux-reality shows brought to you by Corporate America to distract the ADHD-riddled masses from what’s really going on!

  3. Dave says:

    How dare the President try to protect children — doesn’t he know that preventing unregulated gun shows, where criminals can openly buy guns, will lead to our downfall?

    • BuzzLOL says:

      .. But Pres. Obama only wants to protect HIS kids, NOT OUR KIDS/the Sandy hook kids…!!! He acts like Sandy Hook shootings could never happen…

      • ChristoD says:

        BuzzLOL, you need to get a brain adjustment. His actions ar ALL about protecting ALL of our children. Stop taking the GOP untruth serum and get back to rational thinking…..if it is at all humanly possible for brainwashed lemmings like you. I really am NOT about name calling but in your case I am making an exception.

        • BuzzLOL says:

          .. The fully automatic and big bullet weapons the Secret Service and guards at HIS kid’s school use are illegal for the guards at OUR kid’s schools to use… so don’t be such an anti-gun lemming/parrot…

          • ChristoD says:

            I have noticed that whenever someone criticizes ANY position of the radical right, in this case AUTOMATIC weapons, you folks forget what is being criticized and either change the subject or EXPAND it. In your case you state ‘don’t be such an anti-gun lemming/parrot’. I am a triple gun owner and therefore, by definition am not anti-gun. What I fully support is over the top weapons that belong ONLY in the hands of soldiers or law enforcement people hands. I fully agree with the Presidents position on them being banned.

            By the way BuzzLOL do you own an assault rifle or two or three and if you do you own them for the eventual rise against our government because you disagee with its’ legally passed legislation on our behalf ? If you do, YOU are the ENEMY not our government.

        • TZToronto says:

          I think the gun nuts posting here must have taken Weird Al’s song Everything You Know is Wrong to heart. It seems that they spin everything President Obama does to make it appear the opposite of what it really is.

      • BuzzLOL says:

        .. You forget the Secret Service has fully automatic weapons available to protect Pres. Obama’s kids… weapons he won’t let the people who would protect OUR kids use…!!!

  4. BuzzLOL says:

    .. Pres. Obama takes the “extremist position” of ‘gun violence’ insinuating guns pull their own triggers, instead of admitting that deranged religics like himself are pulling the triggers and killing innocent kids… if Pres. Obama was only interested in widening background checks, that would be one thing, but he has 19 things he’s trying to change..!!! 18 of which make no sense… except to 1930’s NAZIS…

    • VulpineMac says:

      Maybe you should read those Executive Orders again. Every one of them is designed first to keep guns out of the hands of the irresponsible–by expanding on the information those background checks have available. Outside of that, he has asked Congress to review and consider a ban on a specific type of weapon–not all weapons–and has no wording in any of it to confiscate any existing weapons from the hands of legal owners.

  5. The NRA should not have issued the ad, Obama using children in his presser was equally as vile.

  6. gahoof says:

    Gun advocates shout “right to bear arms” as a rallying cry; guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Let’s not forget that when the constitution was written, guns (arms) were single-shot muzzle-loaders (capable of mass-killings? I seriously doubt it.)
    I have no problem with common sense restrictions on the owning and use of machinery that is specifically designed to kill living things.
    Reasonable proposals should include:
    1. There is no need to have assault weapons in the hands of private citizens. They should be banned.
    2. There is no need of high-capacity magazines in the hands of private citizens.
    3. If a private citizen wants to buy a gun, then the rest of us should determine if that request will pose a danger to the rest us. Universal background checks to keep weapons out of the hands of violently mentally ill persons or people who already have a criminal record is not unreasonable.
    Other than that, if somebody wants to own a gun (for hunting or for target practice, or just because they’re cool machines, I have no problem with that at all.

    • Reply to # 1 what is your definition of Assult weapon?
      #2 as a private citizen are now required to have a government background check for most gun purchases.
      #3 the government makes that determination for the rest of us.

  7. The NRA also never released the ad, it is only on their web.+

  8. gahoof says:

    There are states like New York where gun owners still have their hunting guns and do not have a problem. So, what is the problem with the NRA leadership? Why the extremism? Is there another issue they don’t want to talk about?

    Almost every day, somewhere in the United States, we hear or read about somebody who has gunned down either a girlfriend, some other man or his own family, or some group in an office or business. Is this the right that the NRA leadership is fighting for? The right to create mayhem when they can no longer deal with life issues?

    • BuzzLOL says:

      .. Those are deranged religics, not guns, that are pulling the triggers and shooting those people! Blame/ban evil psychotic conscienceless religion addiction mnetal illness, not the guns..!!

  9. Dukester says:

    Excellent synopsis Mr. Dionne. Here is the gun lobby’s essential argument: “we want to make it as easy as possible for anyone to purchase any weapon they choose. If that makes it easier for criminals & the mentally unhinged to get them, so be it.” I, for one, surely hope that most Americans will reject that absurb stance, which primarily serves to fill the financial coffers of the gun manufacturers.

  10. AlfredSonny says:

    All those denials by the public, especially the legislators, remind me of Americans, including FDR, denying the reality of Holocaust.

  11. AlfredSonny says:

    Is NRA a Nazi organization?

    Who makes laws ?
    Who manufactures guns?
    Who makes profits on gun sales?
    Who collects taxes on gun sales?
    Legislators, Gun makers, Gun dealers
    and Uncle Sam are only ones who can
    stop violence in the schools

  13. option31 says:

    It is time for a serious discussion on gun control. YOUR government killed 14 million Indians in the 19th Century, YOUR government still operates Indian CONCENTRATION CAMPS – you call them reservations but they are CONCENTRATION CAMPS – 280 still in operation today! YOUR government during WW2 put the Japanese in CONCENTRATION CAMPS – stole their lives, property with NO COMPENSATION. The only significant difference between what your government did and Hitler’s did was your government did not gas anybody!

    It is time you defend these actions. Standing on the graves of children and using them to further your agenda is not short sick. What do you people say about the below?

    December 29, 2012 marked the 122nd Anniversary of the murder of 297 Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. These 297 people, in their winter camp, were murdered by federal agents and members of the 7th Cavalry who had come to confiscate their firearms “for their own safety and protection”. The slaughter began AFTER the majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms. When the final round had flown, of the 297 dead or dying, two thirds (200) were women and children.

    Around 40 members of the 7th Cavalry were killed, over half cut down by friendly fire from the Hotchkiss guns of their overzealous comrades-in-arms. Twenty members of the 7th Cavalry were deemed “National Heros” and awarded the Medal of Honor for their acts of cowardice.

    We do not hear of Wounded Knee today. It is not mentioned in our history classes or books. What little does exist about Wounded Knee is normally the sanitized “Official Government Explanation” or the historically and factually inaccurate depictions of the events leading up to the massacre on the movie screen.

    Wounded Knee was among the first federally backed gun confiscation attempts in United States history. It ended in the senseless murder of 297 people.

    Before you jump on the emotionally charged bandwagon for gun-control, take a moment to reflect on the real purpose of the Second Amendment- The right of the people to take up arms in defense of themselves, their families, and property in the face of invading armies or an oppressive government. The argument that the Second Amendment only applies to hunting and target shooting is asinine. When the United States Constitution was drafted “hunting” was an everyday chore carried out by men and women to put meat on the table each night, and “target shooting” was an unheard of concept, musket balls were a precious commodity in the wilds of early America, and were certainly not wasted “target shooting”. The Second Amendment was written by people who fled oppressive and tyrannical regimes in Europe, and refers to the right of American citizens to be armed for defense purposes should such tyranny rise in the United States.

    As time goes on the average citizen in the United States continues to lose personal freedom or “liberty”. Far too many times unjust bills are passed and signed into law under the guise of “for your safety” or “for protection” . The Patriot Act signed into law by G.W. Bush, then expanded and continued by Barack Obama is just one of many examples of American citizens being stripped of their rights and privacy for “safety”. Now, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is on the table, and will, most likely be taken away for “our safety”.

    Before any American citizen blindly accepts whatever new firearms legislation that is about to be doled out, they should stop and think about something for just one minute- Evil does exist in our world. It always has and always will. Throughout history evil people have committed evil acts. In the Bible one of the first stories is that of Cain killing Abel. We can not legislate “evil” into extinction. Good people will abide by the law, defective people will always find a way around it.

    And another thought Evil exists all around us, but looking back at the historical record of the past 200 years across the globe, where is “evil” and “malevolence” most often found? In the hands of those with the power- governments. That greatest human tragedies on record and the largest loss of innocent human life can be attributed to governments. Who do governments target? “Scapegoats” and “enemies” within their own borders … but only after they have been disarmed to the point where they are no longer a threat. Ask any Native American, and they will tell you it was inferior technology and lack of arms that contributed to their demise. Ask any Armenian why it was so easy for the Turks to exterminate millions of them, and they will answer “We were disarmed before it happened”. Ask any Jew what Hitler’s first step prior to the mass murders of the Holocaust was- confiscation of firearms from the people.

    Wounded Knee is the prime example of why the Second Amendment exists, and why we shouldn’t be in such a hurry to surrender our Right to Bear Arms. Without the Second Amendment we have no right to defend ourselves and our families.

  14. lana ward says:

    Type in—The United States program for general and complete disarmament in a peaceful world. Obama is starting the beginning of a gun grab. The Government is going to confiscate ALL GUNS so we will all be defenseless. Those who resist will be shot. He will be our dictator in a one world order—READ IT!! before you yell at me,cowards

    • VulpineMac says:

      Ok, I looked. It’s a wish-list of things to try and make the entire world a safer place. While many of the first-stage events have occurred, not all nations have adopted the policies recommended so obviously not even the first stage is complete even after 50 years.
      Stage two is dependent on stage one. While some nations have started stage two, in all honesty stage two can’t be fully implemented until stage one is policy world-wide.
      Stage three essentially requires that stages one AND two are completed. To even attempt most of the items in stage three would make the adopting nations vulnerable to any who have not fully implemented the other two stages. I can promise you that no American President would even begin that stage until the rest of the world ratifies the previous stages.

      As I said, it’s a wish list. As long as we have nations and militants opposed to peace in all its aspects, stages one and two can never be completed–preventing the implementation of stage three. Maybe in another 50-, 100-, 200 years we might reach that point, but certainly not now. What President Obama is doing is no more than what previous Presidents have tried–including Republican President Ronald Regan–to reduce gun violence in our own country. He’s not trying to take guns away from Americans, he’s only trying to take one specific type of gun off the market.

    • thebunt says:

      I think you are safe, Lana. Who would bother yelling at an inbecile?

  15. robert says:

    It is clear that Obama/Biden is sticking within the boundaries of the law. Legality, especially constitutional law, is set in stone. We live in a nation of laws, thus it is hard for the gun lobby and NRA to rationally dispute what Obama/Biden is fighting for. Parochial arguments such as “The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun!” “We should have more armed police is schools. Arm principals and teachers!” and now the sad and sorry analogy that the president has armed Secret Service agents protecting his children, so why can’t we have the same!’ is the lowest of lows. Obama/Biden has made it clear that the effort is not to violate anyone’s 2nd amendment rights, but that the government has a contract with its citizens to guarantee their freedoms and safety. Many, many innocent people are being killed on the streets in our cities from drug wars, being mowed down because criminals can’t control ther weapons. Far too many of these innocent people are children. Nothing was being said about tat before the Sandy Hook baby killings in Newtown from military styled weapons with high capacity clips. Because it was done in a single moment in a single heinous incident, it made it grievous to us. Let us add the number of innocent babies being shot on our streets by cowards using military styled weapons that they have either bought from gun runners, corner groceries, clandestine hate groups, or that they rob off of “good guys with guns” and end this violence and blood shed once and for all.

    • FredAppell says:

      Even though you made your comment 4 days ago I want to thank you for helping me see this issue from a different perspective. I support Obama’s ban on military assault weapons but I also support the 2nd Amendment. I was feeling deeply conflicted but you helped me to realize that the NRA paradoxically knows full well that there is nothing unconstitutional about what Obama is proposing and so they keep trying to railroad his ideas in the hope that they can turn public opinion against Obama there for defeating his Gun Control Bill. I also want to add that some of the Walmart’s around the country sell the AR15, at least they did up until the Sandy Hook tragedy. Please keep up the good work.

  16. neusa says:

    I hope you are right and Pres. Obama confiscate all the guns from civilians. He has to do something right since his antecessors didnt have the guts to do it.

  17. robert says:

    Bob Brindel, man, what hypocrisy? Every president and his family since the assassination of James Garfield in 1881 has been protected by the Secret Service. Why is it an issue now? That commercial is a disgrace to this nation and an embarrassment to us as a people. What elitist are you referring to, the Republican/Tea Bags who are sock puppets of the gun lobby and the NRA? If you are an American, you should be ashamed of yourself.

  18. FRED says:

    No civilian should be able to purchase/own an assault weapon.

    • option31 says:

      YOUR government killed 14 million Indians in the 19th Century, YOUR government still operates Indian CONCENTRATION CAMPS – you call them reservations but they are CONCENTRATION CAMPS – 280 still in operation today! YOUR government during WW2 put the Japanese in CONCENTRATION CAMPS – stole their lives, property with NO COMPENSATION. The only significant difference between what your government did and Hitler’s did was your government did not gas anybody!

      Oh and let’s not forget the college students murdered by US Government troops at KENT STATE or the WW1 bonus Army in which tanks were called out to keep WW1 vets from marching.

      Just whee do you draw the line from free person to slave? Slave are not allowed to own unless their owner says so, free people do just buy and sell what they want. Slave are granted privileges they have no rights.

      • thebunt says:

        Approxiamately how many lives would have been lost if the Kent State students had been armed and at war with the National Guard?

    • truthhunter13 says:

      You are absolutely right!!

  19. lana ward says:

    How is Obama going to be sworn in?? He has to swear to protect and defend the constitution. He CAN’T say that!! Right now he is trampling on it!!!!

    • VulpineMac says:

      Is he? How? Exactly what part of it is he trampling on and exactly how is he trampling on it?

      If you mean his gun legislation, I certainly don’t see where he’s taking a single one of our rights away from us–only recommending that one specific type of weapon is removed from the market.

  20. Not until 2014, unfortunately.

    The G.O.P. has consistently proven to be impervious to reason. Instead of conceding that their platform had problems or were unpopular when they lost the presidency, lost Senate seats and lost House seats in November, they have convinced themselves that Obama stole or purchased the elections somehow and doubled down on their idiocy.

    The NRA is no different. Like the G.O.P., they know what the problem is, but are completely unwilling to concede to it, or even let anyone so much as talk about it, because the problem is making them money.

    So the needed change will only come when the NRA runs out of money and their G.O.P. lapdogs get voted out of the House.

    Best things we could do at this point would be to encourage NRA members to cancel their memberships and organize boycotts of the NRA’s top corporate sponsors and the stores that carry their products. The only language these people understand is money, so the only way you can get them to talk is to take it away from them.

  21. robert says:

    old_blu, LMFAO! Good one!

  22. robert says:

    option31, FYI, indigenous Americans have gained sovereinty since Wounded Knee and given reparations for the wrongs done to them in the past. They aren’t called reservations, they are sovereign nationalities with their own laws. The government has since apologized to its patriotic Japanese citizens for the wrong that was done to them in 1945. They have since been given reparations and subsidies to reclaim their lives and the businesses they lost. What about Africans in America whose sweat, blood, and free labor for five hundred years built this nation, has fought and given sacrifice to this nation in every conflict, has prtoven themselves over and above to be true patriotic Americans, and have been denied, murdered, imprisoned, rejected, and disparaged over and over again and has been refused the apology, reparations, and honorable equality they deserve? I notice you didn’t mention that. Try to be a little more accurate when you attempt to quote history to justify your point. . . Just saying, okay.

    • option31 says:

      So the Indians gaining sovereignty after Wounded knee makes the previous murders okay? As far as the Japanese most of the internees that were put in concentration camps were no longer alive when the compensation took place. As far as the blacks, go read the black laws pushed through by the KKK in the south to keep blacks from owning firearms. And the same blacks are targeted by government today – they are by far the majority of people with records and setting in jail

      And honestly as far as the Indians, do you remember what happened in the 70’s and Russel Means? If the Indians declared true sovereignty they would be invaded over night.

      Check your facts I checked mine.

      • robert says:

        Man, option31, you’re as dumb as a rock. You sound just like a funky, weed headed Tea Bag full of your drunken self righteousness. You’re reversing the history of persecution of Africans in America to fit your silly, child-like arguments. It wasn’t the government who disarmed Africans during Black Codes, idiot, it was KKK, white supremacists such as yourself who disarmed them under Black Codes Laws. Today, it is hate groups like the KKK gun running and selling drugs to African youths in order to criminalize them and have them re-enslaved in the Criminal Justice Plantation under the exact same manipulation from the Black Codes. The same hate that went on then is the same hate that is going on today, and you’re a part of it. You’re so twisted and misinformed, you should be checked for mental illness or either your stupidity is stupendous! Much of the wrongs of the past that was rectified and redeemed by the American government still stands, and the wrongs done to Africans in America will be rectified and redeemed as well. You can’t see it or refuse to believe because of your own blind ignorance or the racism that is choking your brains. You’re a traitor to your own country, a low life coward. If you hate your country that much, why don’t you pack up and ship out back to wherever it was you came from? You’re useless dead weight to America and Americans’ forward movement.

  23. TonyinMO says:

    0bama is the extremist!

    I stand firmly against this measure & I hope he fails at passing this piece of misguided legislation. Moral decay is more to blame for Sandy Hook. This legislation is a feel good, knee-jerk reaction to a social problem that will have very little effect on stopping violence. Sandy Hook type events have more shock value than anything. Gun violence is not an epidemic, intoxicated vehicular homicide is an epidemic, suicide is an epidemic. We need weapons in an America where foreign powers have entirely too much influence over matters of our National security & sovereignty. You just can’t predict the next 20 years of our national comfort and American citizens owning very powerful weaponry is a major deterrent of enemies foreign & domestic.

    Pay attention to what else he is doing besides what the media tells you.

    President Barack Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act of 2013 on Wednesday January 3, 2013, giving his stamp of approval to a Pentagon spending bill that will keep Guantanamo Bay open and make indefinite detention for US citizens as likely as ever.

    The president inked his name to the 2013 NDAA on Wednesday evening to little fanfare, and accompanied his signature with a statement condemning a fair number of provisions contained in a bill that he nevertheless endorsed.

    Before the 2013 NDAA was finalized, it was reported by the White House that Pres. Obama would veto the legislation over the provisions involving Guantanamo Bay. Similarly, the White House originally said the president would veto the 2012 NDAA over the indefinite detention provisions, although he signed it regardless “with reservations” on December 31 of that year.

    Since authorizing the 2012 NDAA, the president has been challenged in federal court by a team of plaintiffs who say that the indefinite detention clause is unconstitutional. US District Judge Katherine Forrest agreed that Sec. 1021 of the 2012 NDAA violated the US Constitution and granted a permanent injunction on the Obama administration from using that provision, but the White House successfully fought to appeal that decision.

    Commenting on the latest signing, American Civil Liberties Union Executive Director Anthony Romero says, “President Obama has utterly failed the first test of his second term, even before inauguration day.”

    “His signature means indefinite detention without charge or trial, as well as the illegal military commissions, will be extended,” adds Romero. “He also has jeopardized his ability to close Guantanamo during his presidency. Scores of men who have already been held for nearly 11 years without being charged with a crime–including more than 80 who have been cleared for transfer–may very well be imprisoned unfairly for yet another year. The president should use whatever discretion he has in the law to order many of the detainees transferred home, and finally step up next year to close Guantanamo and bring a definite end to indefinite detention.”

    • VulpineMac says:

      Let’s go back to your first paragraph:
      “Moral decay is more to blame for Sandy Hook.”
      Please explain. Exactly what “moral decay” caused Sandy Hook? How did our government cause that incident? You present a lot of arguments against the aftermath, but say effectively nothing that indicates any kind of lead-up to a mentally-challenged young man killing his mother and taking a LEGALLY OWNED (by her) weapon to that school and killing teachers and children.

      No, your argument is far more the knee-jerk response than anything President Obama has proposed.

      • TonyinMO says:

        Look if you can’t see the moral decay in this country it’s because you aren’t looking or you are simply in denial. As far as the mothers guns, there are already laws on the books against supplying a gun to someone not legally entitled to own one. There are also laws against killing teachers and children. I’m pretty certain they don’t apply to dead people. Do you think if we had a double secret law that would have stopped him? Kind of like double secret probation in the Animal House movie???

        FYI Presidents Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and George W. Bush have each vetoed an NDAA during their administrations. The House & Senate never overrode their vetos.

        • VulpineMac says:

          You didn’t answer the question. Exactly WHAT moral decay caused Sandy Hook? How did our government cause that incident?
          You didn’t answer, because you can’t. You only have a ‘feeling’ that moral decay and our government caused it. That’s not good enough.
          I don’t care which emotional side of the argument you are on, emotions trigger knee-jerk reactions when reasoned, unemotional thought is needed. Yes, there were issues that led to the incident, but what issues? Which laws failed? Which laws weren’t strong enough? What else could have been done to prevent it?
          Banning guns isn’t necessarily the answer, but when a certain type of gun is the most commonly used, doesn’t it make sense to prevent civilian access to that type of weapon? Sure, it wouldn’t have stopped the shooting, but it would have slowed it down and perhaps saved some of those lives. Worse, certain laws failed because they simply weren’t enforced.
          I’m no fan of walk-in inspections of a private residence, but there are laws on the books that require firearms be kept under lock and key with some sort of keyed trigger locking mechanism to prevent someone from simply grabbing an available weapon and using it. Were his mother alive, it is highly possible that she would be facing charges for not securing her weapons. But again, that isn’t enough.
          The young man had a known mental problem that might have prevented his mother from being able to purchase those weapons. She may have believed she was teaching him responsibility and the difference between right and wrong. However, his doctor might (I said might) have seen hints of something deeper that could have gone into his medical record to prevent anyone at his address from purchasing weapons in the first place. She may have been trying to be a father to the boy, but maybe the boy’s father was right and didn’t teach his boy how to shoot for a reason. We simply will not know.
          Again, emotional reaction throws all logic and common sense out the window. There are too many incidents where otherwise apparently “normal” people are doing stupid things. Some may be due to a “Me, too” complex where they see the attention some individual gets for performing a certain type of crime. Others may be due to an in-excisable mental problem that simply makes them violent. Yet others may develop these issues based on their upbringing, their environment or other circumstances around them. Worse, some of these might even be that final lash back at the perceived bullying they received all their lives or maybe they were the bully themselves, suddenly finding themselves the victim rather than the antagonist.
          Armed guards in schools is the mere beginning of a “Minority Report” type of society where an individual is arrested and convicted of a crime before it happens. It is the beginning of a SpetzSnatz (whatever the German spelling really is) on every street corner questioning the activities of innocent passers. It’s the justification for people like that man in Florida who–despite instructions to the contrary–followed and confronted a young man simply minding his own business–to that young man’s demise.

          • TonyinMO says:

            I didn’t answer because it’s obvious to anyone paying attention, but since you are intellectually challenged I’ll spell it out for you. Manners define a culture. The higher they are, the more refined – and elevated – are a country’s public morals. For centuries, Americans understood this. No longer. In movies, television and music, swearing is rampant. Hours are spent social networking and “texting.” Social skills, however, are eroding. Handshakes, politeness, proper greetings, civilized decorum and courteous behavior increasingly are things of the past. Many people are unable to speak proper English. They simply grunt and talk in half-sentences, usually adding adolescent phrases such as “you know” and “like.”

            Children are spoiled and overindulged. They lack basic respect for parental authority – never mind for neighbors and strangers. They are conditioned that they must have the latest consumer goods – from Juicy Couture to iPads and iPhones to Gucci. Hence, we are raising an illiterate, narcissistic generation who think being rude and coarse is chic – sorry, “cool.”

            America is sliding slowly into a cultural abyss. This is a betrayal not only of our children and grandchildren, but of our forefathers. Since 1776, Americans have expended precious blood and treasure to sustain our experiment in limited government and individual liberty. We did not make such sacrifices so that Hugh Hefner and MTV morality could triumph. In front of our eyes, a social revolution is taking place – one that threatens to drown us in a moral cesspool.

            You claim: “Banning guns isn’t necessarily the answer, but when a certain type of gun is the most commonly used, doesn’t it make sense to prevent civilian access to that type of weapon?”

            It’s common knowledge that the percentage of assault type weapons used in violent crimes is 2%, had you had anything other than an emotional knee jerk response to my comment you would have gathered this information and responded to me intelligently. Better luck in the future now go educate yourself. Start here:

            Gun-related violent crime in Virginia has dropped steadily over the past six years as the sale of firearms has soared to a new record, according to an analysis of state crime data with state records of gun sales.

            The total number of firearms purchased in Virginia increased 73 percent from 2006 to 2011. When state population increases are factored in, gun purchases per 100,000 Virginians rose 63 percent.

            But the total number of gun-related violent crimes fell 24 percent over that period, and when adjusted for population, gun-related offenses dropped more than 27 percent, from 79 crimes per 100,000 in 2006 to 57 crimes in 2011.

            The numbers appear to contradict a long-running popular narrative that more guns cause more violent crime, said Virginia Commonwealth University professor Thomas R. Baker, who compared Virginia crime data for those years with gun-dealer sales estimates obtained by the Richmond Times-Dispatch.

          • VulpineMac says:

            And there you go again trying to combine the banning of one type of weapon into a conspiracy to ban all types of guns.
            While you are correct with some aspects of your argument, you are grossly wrong about others. I do agree that swearing and overall lack of discipline is one factor–but the reason for that lack of discipline is tied hand in hand with the threat of Child Abuse charges if a parent so much as bare-handed spanks their child–much less using corporal punishment that fits the age and the severity of the incident drawing the punishment. If children are not taught right from wrong in their formative years, then they develop the belief they can do no wrong–until they wind up either dead or in jail.
            However, leaving the discussion at “moral problems” with no clarification in your previous statement left itself wide open for many, MANY interpretations that even you would disagree with.

          • TonyinMO says:

            Please provide proof of how I tried to to combine the banning of one type of weapon into a conspiracy to ban all types of guns.

            Who exactly are you to tell me I’m wrong? What proof do you have to dispute my facts? All you seem to be capable of is a bunch of EMPTY baseless accusations.

          • VulpineMac says:

            I made it specifically clear that I was discussing a single type of weapon; you chose to include all firearms in that discussion with this statement: “It’s common knowledge that the percentage of assault type weapons used in violent crimes is 2%, had you had anything other than an emotional knee jerk response to my comment you would have gathered this information and responded to me intelligently.”
            You have chosen to base your argument on the entire field of firearms and “violent crime” vs “Mass Murder” which this entire discussion is all about. I don’t dispute that more guns in the home has resulted in lower “violent crime”, but I do argue that access to modern military-style weapons has made it easier to commit Mass Murder–which you seem not able to wrap your abusive, narrow mind around.
            Oh, and don’t even bring up that “culture” argument again. All I have to do is look at nearly every one of your other arguments throughout this forum to show you, not I, are the more antagonistic and as a result more violent individual. I now believe I would win that duel as you would be trying too hard to show off to your friends.

    • charleo1 says:

      What the Right Wing you listen so closely to will never tell you, is Congress specifically
      forbid the closing of Gitmo in the military appropriations bill. The President has no
      authority to unilaterally change any part of a bill. Only to sign it, or veto it. The problem
      with anti-Obama people is they continually claim he is acting like a monarch, but claim
      he is being deceitful on a matter like Gitmo, when he refuses to cross the Constitutional
      bounds of the office he holds. Yes, he could have sent the bill back to Congress, and
      the troops he sent into harms way, would wait for the necessary items also contained
      within that legislation. He decided aganist that, and not for keeping Gitmo open. You
      need to listen to Obama. Something else the Right Wing refuses to do. He said he still
      believes the prison in Cuba should be closed. It is too expensive, and in his opinion
      is one of the best recruitment tools the terrorists have. But I find an extraordinary amount
      of hypocrisy contained in the situation where a leaderless, political organization, the
      GOP, continues to call on this President to lead. Then objects, and characterizes his
      every stated goal, or policy, as a threat to God, democracy, and the American way of life
      as we know it. So on and, so forth. And so it is with Gitmo.

      • TonyinMO says:

        Since I’m not and don’t listen to the right wing I suppose your statement is null and void.

        The Senate by a vote of 67 to 29 approved a measure that would keep Gitmo open among other things. Do you think first of all we want these people infecting our prisons or worse our society upon release? Closing GITMO and dispersing these prisoners in our country is probably one of the stupidest ideas the community organizer has come up with.

        The Senate had approved a measure that voids parts of the 2012 NDAA, but the White House said they planned to veto.

        Just hours before lawmakers in the US Senate overwhelming voted in favor of an amendment that will challenge controversial provisions in the National Defense Authorization Act, or NDAA, the Obama administration cited seemingly unrelated sections of the annual Pentagon spending bill as the reasoning behind a planned veto.

        Last year, staffers working directly under Pres. Barack Obama said they’d recommend the commander-in-chief reject the 2012 NDAA because of certain provisions that provided the Executive Branch the power to indefinitely hold any US citizen in military prison for mere suspicious of ties to terrorism. Despite his office’s assurance that the NDAA would not be authorized as written, Pres. Obama signed his name to the bill on December 31, 2011, all the while acknowledging that he had reservations about the sections that stripped away habeas corpus from US citizens. Even still, the White House has been adamantly fighting in federal appeals court for the right to continue having the ability, despite a district judge having already called that part of the act unconstitutional.

        His signature means indefinite detention without charge or trial, as well as the illegal military commissions, will be extended.

        • charleo1 says:

          You’re all over the place here. First you claim the Senate overwhelmingly voted for
          an amendment challenging the Presidential powers to indefinitely detain. If that were
          so, how did the unpopular statute remain in the bill? That would mean all these
          Senators agreed to change their minds, and include the provision. Given the behavior
          of the Senate recently, does that sound even possible? And as to bringing the detainees
          to the U.S. if they cannot be repatriated, because their country of origin refuses to take
          them. They could be housed for half the cost at a super-max. But then you jump from
          these prisoners being transfered to the U.S. would somehow lead to their release into
          the streets of America. Which is absurd. And I’ll tell you something else. If the bill
          hadn’t have needed some Republicans to pass, the provision that has you so incensed,
          would not be in the bill. Remember, this provision was included by a Republican
          led Congress directly after 9/11, which originally gave these powers to Bush. So it
          wasn’t just Obama’s signature here. George Bush actually ask for, and was granted
          this provision.

          • TonyinMO says:

            If anyone is all over the place it’s you. I suggest you go back and re-read the nonsense you just posted. I’d also suggest you go back and re-read what I posted, you missed the point completely.

          • charleo1 says:

            It’s not my job to educate you on the subject. Like the majority on the Right. You’ve
            got your, “facts,” and, and your nice little story, and damed if you’ll listen to any Liberal lies? And I’ve got better things to do than argue about your facts all day.

          • TonyinMO says:

            It’s obvious you’re clueless and don’t know what you’re talking about. Thanks for your offer but there are many places I could go to get faulty information if I wanted a head full of sh!t like you. I do give you credit, you were smart enough to see that I presented “FACTS” which is more than I can say for your post.

          • charleo1 says:


          • TonyinMO says:

            Thanks for proving my point.

  24. The NRA is only four million members. The LGBT community dwarfs the NRA in membership so do Latinos Blacks Indians (Casino) Indians (Slurpee) Chins on-and-on.

    Who gives a damn what an armed extremist group wants. Those of US that are gun owners & responsible too mandate controls mostly over the kind of nut jobs that join the NRA.

    I won’t even engage them in a dialog any longer. I just can’t carry on a conversation with someone who can only quote NRA bumper stickers.

    • VulpineMac says:

      I am not a member of the NRA; I used to be.

      I, personally, believe in the responsible ownership of weapons for sport and self defense. I am NOT in support of stockpiling weapons and ammunition on the mere paranoia that our country will be invaded by outsiders or taken over by aliens. To me, paranoia is one of those diseases that invites the kind of mass attacks we have seen recently. However, I will also note that few, if any, mass attacks have been carried out by paranoiacs.

      Responsible ownership is the collector who keeps weapons under lock and key–even when on public display.
      Responsible ownership is the homeowner who ensures the weapon is safe–until needed. Note I said NEEDED. Keeping a gun loaded in the home simply invites trouble.
      Responsible ownership is not firing a gun into the air in celebration–for any reason. Those bullets can fly a long way and can injure or even kill an innocent downrange (as happened on this past New Year’s Eve when a 10-year-old girl in Maryland was hit by a falling bullet and died three days later.)
      Responsible ownership is protecting the lives and rights of others while recognizing that not all people agree with you.

      It’s not just knowing HOW to shoot, it’s knowing when NOT to shoot.

  25. puzzled21 says:

    You do realize that anything can be altered to appear as something it is not. If it is a Government document how was it attained?

  26. puzzled21 says:

    You are obviously an A–hole. If you can’t post something intelligent, put your helmet back on and go sit in the corner.

  27. puzzled21 says:

    You and those like you couldn’t protect yours or our children if you had a tank. I own a weapon and I am not against owning them. Since I am no longer a member of the military I don’t require a weapon that will discharge 30 rounds in a minute. To protect my home the shot gun and hand gun will suffice.

  28. Using Kids by persuasion to enlist them to form opinions on issues they have no understanding what the gravity of the decisions they are requesting in the near future or restrictions they will have in the future as adults, is disgusting , low life manipulation of our weaker mined, gutless citizens who are nearly children them selves. Not that we truly haven’t had our rights taken away, like privacy , trial ect… hope the commies die

  29. puzzled21 says:

    You are truly an idiot. Read your own response. Read each one carefully to get the full affect.

  30. Okay, America, stand up and be counted. I don’t know about you, but I NEVER voted for the NRA. They are the most disgusting group and need to be taken down a peg. They are for nothing except SALES of guns. Period. Their motto: Kill more kids.

    • option31 says:

      YOUR government killed 14 million Indians in the 19th Century, YOUR government still operates Indian CONCENTRATION CAMPS – you call them reservations but they are CONCENTRATION CAMPS – 280 still in operation today! YOUR government during WW2 put the Japanese in CONCENTRATION CAMPS – stole their lives, property with NO COMPENSATION. The only significant difference between what your government did and Hitler’s did was your government did not gas anybody!

      Oh and let’s not forget the college students murdered by US Government troops at KENT STATE or the WW1 bonus Army in which tanks were called out to keep WW1 vets from marching for the bonuses they were PROMISED by the US Government when they signed up. And you expect people to trust them????

      NRA has killed nobody!!!!

      • HistoRet says:

        In the entire history of North America north of the Rio Grande it is unlikely there were EVER 14 million native Americans. In fact there are probably more now than at any previous time. You are monumentally ignorant and apparently run solely on your own imaginings. Please check your facts. Try detailing even a sizeable fraction of what you claim. You cannot do it.

        • VulpineMac says:

          Why do you doubt there were ever 14 million Native Americans? What evidence do you have that this land could not have easily supported that many or that the true number was any less? Just because they didn’t live in big cities doesn’t mean they weren’t here and there is certainly evidence of large communities consisting of many hundreds and even thousands of individuals. Not all Native Americans were migratory, after all. Some actually liked the area they lived in.

          • HistoRet says:

            Because I have never posted here before, I’m not clear on precisely how the process works and do not know whether you are the person whose original post I responded to. That person asserted that European-derived folk murdered 14 million native Americans in the 19th century. That is patently absurd and entirely out of keeping with the historical record, bad as it was.
            When I studied history and anthropology in college before beginning a 40-year career as a professor of history it was commonly asserted that the total pre-Columbian population of North America was probably less than 2,000,000. Later scholars bumped that up to several million.
            As you note, many of the pre-Columbian inhabitants were in large population centers, though none so large north of the Rio Grande as those cities of Tenochtitlan and other sites of meso-America and western South America. If one applies the demographic formulas developed by my old friend the late Professor Josiah Cox Russell to the Cahokia and other mound-building cultures of the Mississippi River area, he could arrive at impressive total populations, but nowhere near so large as the populations encountered by Cortez and Pizarro.
            Unfortunately disease vectors introduced from Europe and elsewhere decimated those Mississippi basin populations well before European human settlers ever reached them. Untold numbers died from common diseases like measles. There were also documented instances of deliberate biological warfare, but the effects do not appear to approach the scale of the totally unintended spread of epidemic diseases.
            And that exchange of disease vectors operated in both directions. Some of Columbus’ sailors contracted syphillis and brought it back to Europe with them where it spread like wildfire. It was flourishing in the Vatican and even in China within a few decades, having gone to France where it was called the Spanish disease and from there to England where it was called the Frech disease, etc. , etc. etc. Shakespeare had the grave-digger of HAMLET refer to it when he spoke of how quickly the “pocky corpses” buried in recent years rotting almost before he could get them in the ground. Syphillis was the “great pox” as opposed to the smallpox of great fame.
            Over the centuries since I have no doubt that gift from the native Americans to the rest of humanity has killed far more than 14 million people worldwide.
            All of these matters are much more complicated and more interesting than the ranter who posted the message to which I replied could ever have imagined.
            Anything else?

          • VulpineMac says:

            It seems your study of history is seriously lacking. No, I’m not the person you originally replied to, but your arguments do show a distinct lack of knowledge.
            A.) The US Army specifically sent blankets known to be infected with the Smallpox virus to a number of posts to give out to native Americans as “peace offerings”. That alone accounted for thousands–perhaps hundreds of thousands of deaths as the native Americans had no resistance to the disease.
            B.) More than once, Army commanders like General George Custer attacked native American villages without provocation, killing not only the men, but women and children as well.
            C.) Attacks such as described in B. took place east of the Mississippi as well as entire native American communities were wiped out to “stop indian raids on American settlements.”
            D.) Aztec-style ruins have been discovered in a number of American locations. One of the most notable (and most covered up) is a community not far Dahlonega, GA. If they lived that far north, what’s to say they didn’t have communities elsewhere in the country as well–far, far north of the Rio Grande.
            The point is that your argument of the murder of 14 million native Americans as “patently absurd” is itself, patently absurd. You can’t know how many native Americans lived on this continent prior to Columbus so your blatant dismissal of the other poster’s argument itself shows a prejudiced and argumentative viewpoint.

          • HistoRet says:

            PAY ATTENTION! First ~ I characterized the claim that 14 million native Americans were killed by Americans in North America in the 19th century as patently absurd. It is still patently absurd that ANYONE killed 14 million native Americans IN THE 19TH CENTURY or indeed all the centuries of American history combined. You are rapidly proceeding from simple IGNORANCE to blatant STUPIDITY. George Armstrong Custer was a brevetted Brigadier General for a few months late in the Civil War. As an Indian fighter he never held such a rank. The Aztec-style ruins you allude to are some of the remnants of the mound-building cultures I mentioned earlier. “What’s to say” anything about events of unrecorded history is careful research and reasonable analysis. Please don’t respond to statements I never made. I assure you I am more familiar with the relevant information than you are. Forgive me if I fail to reply again until you withdraw from THE PRETENSE THAT 14, 000, 000 NATIVE AMERICANS WERE KILLED BY AMERICANS IN NORTH AMERICA IN THE 19TH CENTURY. Your mindless iteration defending that claim has gone beyond the endurable.
            You don’t prove anything by merely speaking in hyperbole. Great wrongs were done to the native Americans, but you don’t make a stronger case by competing to see who can tell the most exaggerated tales. You can actually learn REAL FACTS if you just stop relying on imaginary conclusions arrived at without fear or research. As a professional historian I never had that luxury.

          • VulpineMac says:

            You are so stuck on your old history that you taught for so long that you are completely unaware of new discoveries that have taken place as recently as 5 years ago and later. You know what you were taught, but by the sound of your own responses, you have not bothered to keep up with modern research. The specific community discovered in Georgia offers a direct relationship — an almost perfect match in all but scale to known Aztec sites on the Yucatan Peninsula.
            As far as my argument about the 14 million native Americans, my original argument was the fact that you even consider the possibility absurd, an extremely prejudiced viewpoint. Whether they were killed in the 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th centuries or all combined is beside the point; the fact is a vast number of native Americans WERE killed–far more than are still alive as members of their Nations today. You are not and will not be forgiven until YOU at least choose to do some real research and discover the truth.
            I’m even willing to bet that you refuse to believe Europeans–even Englishmen, walked on pre-Columbian America. These facts have been established.

          • HistoRet says:

            To my knowledge there are no AZTEC sites on the Yucatan Peninsula. There are MAYAN sites on the Yucatan Peninsula. The AZTEC inhabited what is now central Mexico, not the Yucatan Peninsula. That is not exactly what you could dismiss as a mere quibble. Where did you learn all these non-facts?
            Cite me one recognized scholar who has published that Englishmen “walked on pre-Columbian America.” Just one. A book or journal citation would be nice, as well. John Cabot (actually an Italian named Giovanni Cabotto) was the first to make an English voyage to within sight of North America, and he departed England in 1497, five years after Colombus’ 1st voyage and therefore by definition not PRE-COLUMBIAN. Of course I’m leaving out the Great Pumpkin and Leonardo Da Vici who stopped by on the way to painting a picture on the moon. Oh ~ I forgot. Leonardo was also Italian.
            You can be sure that many more native Americans DIED than were KILLED as a result of the coming of the Europeans. As much as 90%+ of the native population of some of the West Indian islands died in the first generation, overwhelmingly from disease.
            In the deadliest of all North American wars about 600,000 people, give or take 60,000, died altogether. About half of them died of disease. More reportedly died of diarrhea and dysentery than died from gunshot wounds. Ah, the glory of war ~ shitting oneself to death!

          • VulpineMac says:

            Ok, I got the two reversed. Honestly, that’s beside the point.
            And considering the information is televised on the History Channel every week with new information, I honestly don’t remember the author’s name.
            As far as your attempt to make this conversation ridiculous, quite honestly you’re destroying your own argument as a result.
            And don’t forget, you, yourself even described the US Army’s biological warfare. Now, maybe those native Americans didn’t all die of gunshot wounds, but disease itself makes a powerful weapon when the population isn’t immunized against it–which the Army already knew. So again I ask–are you absolutely certain “there were never any 14 million native people in America” as you originally stated in this discussion?
            By the way, think of the names of three Florida tribes that lived in the vicinity of Mayami–Yes, my misspelling is intentional; those three tribes all had Maya as part of their names. Coincidence?

          • HistoRet says:

            Confusing Aztec and Maya when one is talking about Aztec-like buildings is hardly beside the point. It is the kind of error a scholar would rarely make. It might be considered a solecism, the sort of mis-statement that reveals shallowness of understanding or an insecure grasp of information.
            I am, whether you wish to concede it or not, a scholar. It is my training, my life-long career, and my inescapable mind-set. No scholar would cite The History Channel as a source, with or without details, and expect to be taken seriously. For God’s sake, they talk about finding the mythical Noah’s Ark! By the way ~ I once flew over Mt. Ararat and couldn’t find a trace of it.
            Beyond that ~ impressed by your tenacity, I finally found the way to revisit the thread where I posted my first message and followed it. I read lots of your other postings and have become convinced that you are not one of the fools or one of the bad guys posting on The National Memo. There are a lot of both, you will no doubt agree. Poor Lana Ward! I wish she would just quit revealing her unbalanced mind. Reminds me of those horrible pictures of Britney Spears strapped to a gurney being hauled off to a mental facility. How cruel a thing to do to any fellow human creature! How pitiful when someone continues to make a similar spectacle of one’s self.
            I’m not going back to the beginning to quote precisely, but I BELIEVE what I said was that “it is doubtful there were ever 14,000,000 Native Americans north of te Rio Grande in pre-Columbian North America.” I know that’s so because I know lots of people who doubt it. I further said “it is patently absurd to assert that the US Army murdered 14,000, 000 native Americans in the 19th century.” That declaration is STILL PATENTLY ABSURD, and you will not find any scholarly support for such an outrageous assertion. Bet you a bundle on that.
            Without doing further research, I have to say I don’t recall that the US ARMY ever used the infected blanket gambit to murder Indians, although it’s possible. I read of British agents and free-lancers doing it, but not ever on a grand scale. If you want to research it, please observe the rules of evidence before you convict anyone of such heinous crimes. With us professionals you would be obligated to display what researchers sometimes called “the impedimenta of scholarship” if you are going to expect any critical audience to accept your conclusions. You know ~ all that footnote and bibliography stuff that publishers like to leave off but which scholarship requires ~ that’s the “impedimenta” I’m talking about.

            I wouldn’t mind extending our colloquy privately. Do you know how to take this conversation off The National Memo?

      • VulpineMac says:

        Option, you’re only hurting your own cause with arguments like that. While I don’t disagree with your points, all you do is emphasize why your statements should be ignored by the mere tone of your argument.

  31. Lulie Frye says:

    I love that speech he gave…. Shows what a Well educated, well informed, and calm man can do and sound like. He has the credentials of knowing the constitution after all that is what he majored in in Harvard Law. Plus he had the backing of the Vice President who has extensive experience in gun control issues. The panel of people called to work the problem of massive gun violence in our country was top. I am impressed that he included the voices of our future, our children. Those in this country that think he used the children as pawns are deluded. He is in my history of being alive the best president to date…. You can’t judge the deficit by him because the congress is responsible for that. 82% of the monies spent in this country was spent by the republican side of the government, and then they turn tail blaming the president and the people blame the president. I have a desire for individuals to stop their emotional chaotic delusional thinking and calm them selves, study. KNow the facts…. You might be surpised that this American born nonmuslim president is on your side. Who are you going to listen to…. the extremists and crazy folk like Michele Bauchmann and Sara Palin… The NRA that is supported by congress, and happily funded by gun manufacturers and circurlarly funded if you think about it by the congress because they are scared of the NRA? Really? I have a thought, maybe a silly one, but to me in the history of human beings, the most chicken shit weapon made was a long range one. guns, missels, bombs….. It enables you to take out your enemy if you will without even seeing them, their faces. If there were no guns, if there were no long range warfare items to be had, where would be? In a much better place… A place where problems are dealt eye to eye. Up close so you can really see the issues, not far away like a Monet painting, It looks like YOU want it from a far doesn’t it. YOU can put your delusions to work and catastrophize the issues without getting up close to see them…… I know that would be quite the Utopia wouldn’t it… TO live in a world where honesty had to be because you were close enough to see the truth… No fish stories, just the truth with clear vision…. all I can say is … I pray that we as a nation will be honorable, calm, and well studied on these issues before we start screaming nonsense and the potential for another tradgedy like Sandy Hook, or the like to occurs again………

    • option31 says:

      I agree with this statement… “I have a thought, maybe a silly one, but to me in the history of human beings, the most chicken shit weapon made was a long range one. guns, missels, bombs….. It enables you to take out your enemy if you will without even seeing them, their faces. If there were no guns, if there were no long range warfare items to be had, where would be? In a much better place… A place where problems are dealt eye to eye.”

      I’m guessing you wrote the President about the drones the US is using to murder innocent children in Pakistan and elsewhere that are controlled far from the battlefield and how wrong they are and he should executive order that they be stopped, since you both are so peace loving.

  32. montanabill says:

    Speaking of ‘small minded political points’, E.J., what were those kids doing behind the President?

    I can’t too excited about the 23 Executive Orders, simply because most of them were ho-hum theater. I will say that I’m not going to tell my doctor if I own a gun, even if he were silly enough to ask. The tail end orders were the ones that should have been first. Those dealing with mental illness.

    Just a tip for the CDC when they begin searching for the causes of gun violence. How about mentally disturbed and violent people?

    One more thing. Why did he have to clarify that the Affordable Care Act doesn’t prohibit doctors from asking their patients about guns in their homes? Didn’t he read it?

    • VulpineMac says:

      Why? Because there are those who want to prohibit doctors from asking those questions.

      • montanabill says:

        I don’t know that anyone wants to prohibit doctors from asking about a gun. They can do that today. I can see where a therapist might ask relatives about guns if they suspect a patient is not mentally safe around them, but your doctor? I know a number of doctors, and I will ask them if they now plan on asking their patients about guns, but I’ll bet I can already guess the answer.

        • VulpineMac says:

          It is obvious you don’t know the difference between a Therapist and a Doctor. Whether a person is a psychiatrist, psychologist or simply your home-grown MD, they are all doctors; a therapist operates at the instructions of a doctor. Just this past year there was quite an argument about whether doctors should be prevented from asking questions about guns in the home no matter the mental state of the patient. By preventing the question, you prevent the doctor from potentially saving others’ lives if a mentally unstable patient either owns or can gain access to weapons.
          I’m fully aware of the Hippocratic Oath and the requirement to not reveal the things a patient might say while in the doctor’s care, but it is also up to the doctor to advise and report when it is felt that the patient is a risk to self or others. By actively preventing a question like that, you actively prevent the doctor from saving lives.

          • montanabill says:

            There are many kinds of therapists: occupational, speech, physical, et al. They may or may not be operating under instructions from a doctor. Some may have doctorates, many have masters degrees. You apparently are a little slim on information.

            I never indicated that I was for preventing a doctor asking about guns. But his patients are not obligated to answer. My doctor could ask last week. There was no law preventing him or requiring him. There is no law requiring me to answer.

          • VulpineMac says:

            I never implied that the patient had to answer, but the doctor should certainly have the right to ask if he feels the question is important. Meanwhile, as I said before, there have been bills IN CONGRESS designed to prevent a doctor from even asking.

          • montanabill says:

            I believe the rational for those bills is because with Obamacare, the doctor is required to report the information to the government. Seems to be a loophole created to get around HIPAA.

          • VulpineMac says:

            If you study it again, I believe it says the doctor would be required to report it, *IF* he feels a factor in the safety of the patient or others. If that fear goes down in the doctor’s report on paper, then by all means it should be reported to the feds. The doctor doesn’t HAVE to ask, nor does the patient HAVE to answer. But if the question is asked and answered and there is a believable risk of life from that answer, I would rather remove the means to that risk.

          • montanabill says:

            Who gets to decide ‘believable risk’?

          • VulpineMac says:

            If the doctor writes it into the patient’s paperwork, then HE believes it’s a risk. If the patient later attempts to purchase a weapon and gets refused, then he should have the right to challenge that diagnosis.

          • montanabill says:

            No problem with that, at all.

          • VulpineMac says:

            Thank you.

  33. VulpineMac says:

    You are right, criminals will always have guns; however, by making it harder to commit mass murder, lives are saved… maybe even your own.

  34. VulpineMac says:

    Of course, who would pay for those hired guards?
    That’s right, you would. Are you ready for a tax increase?

  35. VulpineMac says:

    Tony’s not right, either. If current laws are properly enforced, then there will be some effect.

  36. VulpineMac says:

    No, it will only tell you what HE THINKS Obama plans.

  37. VulpineMac says:


  38. VulpineMac says:

    Don’t forget the irresponsible who simply fire their guns into the air for no reason, then hide when their careless action causes the death of a child.

  39. Let US give all the crazies guns with 50 round magazines & endless supplies of ammo.

    Oh wait, that’s the NRA.


    PS GO pack your weapons sonny boy. They’re comng to git them. ONLY people with a valid firearms permit may possess weapons how’s that grab you gun nuts? How many of the gun nuts could pass a detailed check eh?

  40. latebloomingrandma says:

    30+ years ago, John Lennon was killed by a nut with a gun. For years prior to that, John tried to get the Aunt who raised him to visit America. She would not, because she saw our country as full of people who go around shooting each other, and she was terrified to visit. Imagine when she got the phone call. So—-what has changed since then?

  41. riobob111 says:

    everyday we hear about shooting and gun violence. The NRA has always been a great lobbyist and controls the GOP with monetary donations. Why is it so easy to purchase assault weapond when the ones buying are using them violently and Yet nothing has been done. I support Obama and believe He is a just man, We need to eliminate corruption in government and make Congress work for the people

  42. thebunt says:

    Years ago at a 4th of July Parade in Northern Idaho, the NRA was handing out their latest newsletter. On the front page was a story that said that when the Australian Government bought up all the weapons in the community, the murder rate increased by 1,200%. I took the newsletter back to Australia and showed it to my Member of Parliament. He just laughed and said they had seen it and to ‘consider the source’. I later sent it to a talk-back radio station and they had a lot of fun with it. It even showed up on tonight-type TV show. Australia has less than 40 million people, but I can assure you, they all were laughing at the NRA and the USA.

  43. option31 says:

    Well I would like to thank the operators of this board and National Memo for letting people like Robert and HistoRet name call insult etc… while not publishing my civilized response that did not name call but just presented facts and directed them to my sources. While I have not always agreed with EJ Dioone I have read his columns and had respect for him. I will have to re think that as for him to be associated with a organization that lets people name call and insult and then censor a civil reply stating facts is dis heartening. As a journalist – somebody that is to be for the free flow of ideas to censor my replies to these attacks is a travesty for the 1st Amendment and his reputation.

  44. FredAppell says:

    I think everyone is missing the point here. When most school shootings happen, the guns are usually bought legally. Most of the time the shooter is a kid. Imagine that, kids killing kids. We don’t have a political problem, we have a social problem and nobody has the answers in spite of what is being fed to us. As long as we keep looking at the issue all wrong then we will never find a solution.

    • VulpineMac says:

      Then can I assume you support President Obama’s Executive Orders that emphasize determining the cause and trying to find some way to reduce that risk?

      • FredAppell says:

        Admittedly I am not familiar with that Executive Order but as long as there isn’t any hidden agenda then yes I do support it. For what it’s worth I don’t believe the problem stems from popular media such as video games, music, t.v. and movies ect. I think it has more to do with improper parenting but since i’m no expert I could be wrong.

        • VulpineMac says:

          The listing of his recent Executive Orders are readily available online. I highly suggest you read them for yourself before you make any decision about his agenda. You might discover that the people you have been listening to are wrong.

          • FredAppell says:

            Thank you, I will. As of lately I have been trying to stay away from any news sources and I absolutely refuse to listen to any political personalities both conservative and liberal. Most of the time I won’t comment on this forum if I feel that I don’t know the subject matter. My biggest asset that I pride myself on is my ability to sit back and observe but sometimes I let my emotions cloud my judgement. I like Obama, I voted for him twice but my expectations of him are going to be much greater his second term. In other words, I will not give any of our leaders a pass any longer simply because I believe in their politics. I want to be as objective as possible, not for anyone else, but for my own growth.

          • VulpineMac says:

            I give you kudos for actually choosing to think for yourself–unlike so many who automatically believe whomever says what they think ‘should’ be the truth rather than the truth itself.

  45. DEFENDER88 says:

    A question.
    Does anyone dispute the following facts?

    1 – Of the 11-12k gun killings in this country every year, only about 300 are by rifle and even fewer by assault rifles

    2 – 75% of gun killings occur in ghetto type areas of our major cities, mostly drug related crime and most of those are by hand-gun and mostly by young men in early 20’s

    3 – Most of the “mass” murders have happened in “Gun Free Zones”
    Columbine, VT, Ft Hood, Aurora Theater, Sandy Hook,
    And mostly by young white men in early 20’s and on drugs. All “clearly” disturbed/crazy.
    And the VT and Ft Hood killings were done by hand gun only.
    Ft Hood was done by a middle aged Al Qaeda terroist, supposed psychiatrist.

    4- There are millions of assault rifles out there already and the gangs already have many of them

    5- Of major cities – Chicago has the highest gun crime rate in the country even with a ban on guns.

    6-There are roughly 70million legal US gun owners.

    7-There are roughly 250million guns out there in the US already.

    If these “facts’ are not true then I would be interested in knowing.
    I dont need any opinions, either way, we can do all that later, just trying to establish some facts we all know and agree to that may be relevant to this issue.

    You dont know where I am going to come down on this issue so dont start.

    • VulpineMac says:

      You only left out one point about item 3: every mass murder EXCEPT the two you specifically listed was carried out with a civilian version of a modern military rifle. If we go farther to list the 2011 murder of teenagers in Norway, that too involved a variant of a military weapon.

      • DEFENDER88 says:

        Thanks for the additioinal info.

        Since I am a gun owner I can not say anything in this open forum without my inbox being filled with hate mail.

        Maybe you can be reasoned with?

        Just as much damage can be done with a hand gun, especially at the preferred close ranges of these crazies.

        Do you agree ?

        See my qualifications to know below.

        Considering “just that”, I fear a ban on Rifles will make people feel better that something was done but dont think it will actually help much in limiting or stopping the killing.


        Seems to me the most sure and immediate way to limit or stop the killing is to provide adequate security in these Gun Free Zones.

        They are the chosen areas of the crazies because they know they can do maximum damage there un-challenged.

        Most of them arent just crazy and dumb, most of them are actually quite intelligent and have carefully planned their rampages.

        There is a reason they are choosing Gun Free Zones – this is no coincidence – that should be really clear.

        Do you agree with this logic?

        So – I think they will continue to plan their attacks and choose Gun Free Zones and a ban on assault rifles will have little effect on that.

        1st There are millions of rifles out there already and a ban would take many years to have any real effect.

        2nd They can use hand guns and do just as much damage.

        I dont think they care what they use as long as they can kill all they want then themself.

        Agree here?

        As for a ban having any real effect overall – in the very long term it “might” but there are already so many out there it will take many years. The horse is already out of the barn on this. Plus – a “ban” will not remove the rifles the gangs have. It will likely only affect law abiding owners who are not the real danger to society. Actually we gun owners do serve as a deterrent to the thieves and gangs – that is what interviews with prison inmates say anyway.


        Some background on me ie where “I” am coming from:

        I have been shot at 4 times, all in State or Federal Parks ie Gun Free Zones.

        Twice by assault rifles. Fortunate for me they could not shoot worth a dam.

        The 1st 2 were medium to long range stuff ie Rifle Range distances.

        The 1st 2 times I was unarmed and experienced the feeling of total helplessness and fear in not being able to defend myself.

        That is when I said, if I am going to continue to go into wilderness areas I better get an assalut rifle for these kind of attacks.

        It was more then one person, it was several.

        The 2nd 2 times I was armed and drove the bastards off with my assault rifle.

        Red Necks up in the mountains mostly.

        Interesting how you can just return fire near them and how they fall all over themsleves trying to get away.

        Coward bastards.

        Most of these type are. In the citys also.

        They are brave shooting at you but if you return fire (even just one shot) they fall all over themsleves to escape.

        One of the guys who shoots with me was in a Church in Texas where a mad man came in and killed 7-8 and he says(like me) that he never again wants to be put in a position like that again, totally defensless and vulnerable.

        Some other reasons I feel the need for an assault rifle:

        Given the state of our economy and disfunction in DC I think there is a good chance, in the not too distant future, we may be facing a period of sever social unreast and perhaps upheavel and near anarchy in this country. Gangs would then rule. etc and having an assault rifle will be the best defense against them.

        An AR15 “Assault” Rifle is the most versatile rifle for self defense, hunting, sport, etc.

        It is used a great deal in sport shooting.

        In spite of all the talk – they do make good hunting rifles.

        But, most other “hunting” rifles are actually much more powerful than an AR15.

        More on me – QUALIFICATIONS :

        I am a competitive pistol shooter IDPA (you can find it on the internet or UTube).

        The police dont try to compete with us much since they usually finish last.

        They can Out-Police us but not Out-Shoot us.

        The Sheriff uses our gun club range for training and we interact with them a lot and train with them some.

        I am licensed and permitted, including the shooting qualifier, well trained, FBI Background checked, finger prints etc

        “I” shoot about 1,000rds/mo in practice. The Police shoot about 100rds/mo in practice.

        ie I practice, roughly, 10x more than the police do.

        My mental state – the last thing I ever dont want to have to do is shoot anyone.

        But if those bastards in the mountains try to kill me again, I am going to shoot back again.

        It is a big responsibility carrying a gun – that it why I very rarely carry mine.

        I have multiple security systems, and layers, to be sure no-one else can get them.

        Let me know

        • VulpineMac says:

          I have to say that I’ve been fortunate enough to have never been at the receiving end of a bullet; I’m sorry that you’ve run into some of those careless and irresponsible owners.
          That said, I would far rather have the accuracy of an M-14 with its .30cal bullets than an AR-15 with its .223 bullets. I prefer to hit what I aim at and with an M-14 I can hit a human-sized target in the kill zone at 300 yards. Should I choose to use a bolt- or lever-action rifle I should do just as well. If you truly practiced as much as you claim, I am a little surprised you didn’t hit your assailant. As even the NRA says, “If you’re going to pull that trigger, you better be prepared to kill what you aim at.”
          But that’s really beside the point.

          For almost 5 years now, we’ve heard nothing but arguments about how we need to cut taxes and cut spending. Now, those same people still insist on cutting spending, while demanding we put security guards in our schools. How do they think those guards are going to get paid? Where is the money to pay them coming from? You can’t have your cake and eat it too, as the old saying goes. Want guards? Authorize the funds to pay for them. The worst choice is to expect volunteers because they simply won’t be as reliable in the long run.
          You see, I do try to look at the “big picture”, which certain individuals and groups don’t seem to understand. For every action there is a reaction. If our country is to grow, it must mend the tear caused by partisan politics and truly begin to work together again.

          • DEFENDER88 says:

            I “basically” agree, the big picture needs to be considered vs knee jerk solutions that sound good but probably wont do much.

            And I finally like talking to someone not calling me a paranoid nut job who needs mental help – like many in here do.

            I am about done trying to have a reasoned discussion with these people and just go on over to the other side ie the Repubs.

            I have been a good Dem most of my life but hearing the crap in here is pushing me the other direction.

            I am 65 yr old and have seen a lot and been around also.

            And an M14 is a good, classic choice for longer range work.

            My encounters were in heavily forested, with foliage East Tn And N GA mountains at long ranges. Actually the first time they shot at me I was in my kayak navigating a white water river. That was the scariest, like a pumpkin sitting on a log.

            1st shot 10′ in front of me, 2nd 3′ – glad I went around the bend before he could shoot again.

            You have to imagine sitting there waiting for that 3rd shot.

            The second encounter in camp at dead of night with no moon total dark. They hit us with a shotgun that time but long range and did not fully penetrate our heavy clothes.

            The other 2 – I only got very brief glimpses of the threats at long range under cover, thick woods, etc.

            Also was years ago and did not have the optics I have today. In fact I had no optics back then.

            Best I could do was squeeze of a couple in their direction. So mountainside and did not have to worry about collaterals.

            Assuming we both understand that no solution is going to be 100% but that solutions need to be installed “asap” not 1 yr from now.

            I did not say all schools should necessarily have “paid” security. But I know the SRO(School Resource Officer) program has worked well here. I “think” that is one thing the NRA is also proposing.

            That is “one”, immediate solution to limit the killing, in the short term(ie something that can be done soon).

            As for paying for it – to me – that would be another cost of having children.

            A lot of school systems are beginning to look at(actually working at) arming teachers to conceal carry level and above.

            That also seems a potential good solution that can be done relatively soon. “That” “could” be done in say 1 month.

            I like that potential better than paid security and think it would actually help with school security and individual teacher security.

            That would put multiple and immediate armed resistance, defense and challenge at the point of attack.

            And the teachers would be better served/protected from a self defense standpoint in their everyday life and at home.

            Not force teachers to do it who dont want too, but assist those who do.

            Guns could be kept in finger-print safes at their desk.

            It is not a 100% solution but nothing else is either.

            I am seeing that concept take hold in several parts of the country.

            For other parts where that may not work maybe paid security.

            Or “Fortress” Schools like I have heard about in England(High fences, metal detectors, advanced design, etc).

            Or some mix of all.

            As for other Gun Free Zones(Theaters, churches, malls, etal) – Allow(Actually encourage) Permitted Conceal Carry people to be armed.

            A deterrent and defense at no cost. Plus a designated armed security presence, in case no conceal carry people are present.

            Conceal Carry people “have” had results in limiting the killing by just “showing” a challenging gun to the crazed perp’s, like the Oregon mall. I understand a conceal carry guy drew down on the guy and he immediately shot himself thus limiting the killing.

            So – overall ie the big picture – I think we should concentrate on solutions that will acutally help and can actually be done in the very near term.

            I know you agree – we dam sure dont want to see another one of these child massacres which I fear we will if something is not done very soon to increase security.

            And, long term, install systems/procedures etc that get and keep assault weapons, well all weapons, out of the hands of the “bad guys” including the crazies to the maximum extent possible. But not “dis-arm” us good guys.

            As a nod to the gun control people, I do think we should include a physc test as part of qualifying for a permit.

          • VulpineMac says:

            No wonder we think so much alike; we’re both Tennesseeans. So I also have some idea of the countryside you’re talking about. What’s funny is that you’re a Dem leaning Repub and I’m a Repub honestly embarrassed by the Tea Party. They have been so counter-productive in our Congress it’s ridiculous!
            I’ve been reading a fair about of commentary about the SRO program and it does seem to be fairly effective–at least from the people who are commenting. I’ll admit I don’t have any experience with one and to tell you the truth, where I’m living now school discipline seems patently lacking even though Maryland schools maintain some of the highest rankings in education across the country. Yet again there’s a Maryland teacher vying for National Teacher of the Year. I don’t know what it is, but they’ve got to be doing something right.
            Still, you may not have read about it, but a 10-year-old girl was killed by a bullet fired into the air at midnight on New Year’s Eve–so obviously one of our biggest problems is owner responsibility. Much of what Obama has put into his Executive Orders has not been gun control per se, but rather seeking ways to keep guns out of the hands of those most likely to cause events like Aurora, CO and Newtown, CT. Again, nothing is going to be perfect–especially not any kind of gun ban–but if even one mass murder incident is prevented, it will have succeeded.

          • DEFENDER88 says:

            Yup Tenn mountain man with a masters deg.
            I know – sounds counter-intuitive:)

            Tea Party
            I do agree with the basic principal of fiscal constraint.
            But I despise their methods and actions.
            They shouted down anyone who may have had a different view – that started with the Town Meetings.
            They did not allow any debate on the issue. They WILL NOT compromise – that is the basis of our system!
            And because they Signed the Grover Norquist pledge so they could get money for re-election they vote according to what will advance their career(ie so they dont upset Grover) but not what is best for the country – I despise them for that. In the last Debt Level round they caused our/US Credit Rating to be down rated, which cost us all. A hidden cost we all pay.
            So while they have good fundamental principals they have become – Self-serving, blood sucking, dick heads.

            I believe there is at least a 50/50 chance they will shut this country down (The Fed Govt) in the next round.
            If the Tea Party and Obama both dont compromise it is likely. And that is how it looks.
            And that is only a month or two off.
            That could get ugly.
            ie Another need for Assault Rifle? No police, no military?
            A civil unrest nightmare?
            Hope I dont “need” them but glad I already have my guns and ammo anyway.
            So, I pray not.

            It has worked well here, Chattanooga.
            With several side benefits.
            The kids look on them as role models, father figures, etc.
            But a smart attacker could take him out first then wreck havoc.
            If however several teachers are also armed a “mass” murder would be much less likely even if the SRO is not available.
            Several pissed off teachers with guns protecting their kids:) I would not want to face them.
            Also there is always the problem of financing the program.

            ps Israel had the same problem with school massacres by terrorists. They solved it by arming all teachers with assault rifles! Of course all people in Israel are already trained military, since all must serve, men and women.

            I contributed to Hillary, she said support him so I have.
            BUT – I was furious about his non-support of the Keystone Pipeline – well “he” does not have to buy gas so what the hell.
            He said he would not let politics interfere with what was best for the country. But I think he deferred it to placate the tree huggers before the election.(ie get that vote) I have actually fought a couple major enviro battles against the “machine” so I am not against enviro causes and good mgt.
            Also disappointed with his lack of support for the Bowles Simpson Plan (which he set up). This plan could get us back on track.
            Its a sh-t sandwich but at least “everyone” has to take a bite.
            Now gun control(rifles)- ugh.
            I dont have a problem with measures like better background checks, etc.
            But these people in here will be going after pistols next.
            Some already are.

            In Tenn Conceal Carry courses you are taught you are responsible for that bullet until it stops moving, whereever it goes, more. Also must qualify shooting, FBI Check, etc Could be a good model for all states. All paid for by applicant. Most courses taught by Police. My instructor was SWAT Trainer/Commander.

            PIERS MORGAN
            He has not lived the American experience like we have. Now he comes over here and tries to tell us how screwed up we are?
            Spreading dis-information and only allowing argument that helps his views.
            F him.

          • VulpineMac says:

            1.) If you ask me, the Tea Party was hijacked to make it an extremist political entity. I am a Republican and honestly I hate what they’ve done to the party.
            2.) If Hamilton County weren’t so big, 450,000 residents or more, we might know each other. I used to go up to the range at Ocoee to shoot.
            3.) Putting armed guards (SROs) in schools seems to be a popular idea–especially for Tea Party; but turn around and they refuse to finance better law enforcement. Better enforcement alone could reduce some of what we’ve seen lately.
            4.) Personally, I’m opposed to the Keystone pipeline for one very specific reason: the planners are using Right of Eminent Domain to steal the land the pipeline crosses–not paying reasonable rates per acre to cross prime farm land. This is no better than the old land grabs by the railroads back in the late 1800s. Be fair to the people whose land you’re crossing, and I’d have no problem with that pipeline–though I have other complaints about the source of the oil it will carry.
            5.) Firing bullet in air; I’ve already commented about what happened mere miles from where I currently live. The bad part is that the celebrant has NOT owned up to his mistake, which makes the crime far worse. However, I’d also like to point out that this weekend alone has seen 5 people injured by the accidental discharge of firearms within three different gun shows in three different states. Worse, on the very day of the “Gun Appreciation” celebration. Rather than advancing their cause, these accidents have made gun owners look stupid and careless. If you think Tennessee’s ownership laws are strict, you should see Maryland’s. All potential first-time gun buyers MUST take several hours of classroom-type education as well as direct live-fire training by State authorized instructors prior to taking delivery. Naturally this increases the cost of that first weapon, but I strongly approve–though it doesn’t seem to help when that training is ignored. Some people just have to be idiots.
            6.) I’ll admit I’ve not paid attention to Piers Morgan, so I have no idea what he’s actually said. However, I’m not going to fully disagree with him when incidents like we had just yesterday–Gun Appreciation Day–pretty much prove his point. I do not advocate a ban on weapons as such, but I do believe that careless actions should result in disciplinary punishments for the owner/user. Just yesterday I watched a video montage of “firearm bloopers” where many of the individuals shown should lose their right to own–at least for a period of time to emphasize gun discipline. Shooting when drunk, having a loaded weapon in the home–and honestly one shotgun wielder who suffered a hang-fire and looked down the barrel? That one nearly had his head blown off! Stupidity like this is what Europeans are seeing and why people like Piers Morgan are saying what they do.

  46. onedonewong says:

    Its a shame that as Barak pursued his law degree that he failed to take any classes on the constitution. Every time he opens his mouth he really personifies why quota degrees are always a bad idea

    • VulpineMac says:

      Apparently you didn’t know Obama majored in Constitutional law. He probably knows more about the US Constitution than any person commenting on this forum.

      • onedonewong says:

        Sorry he majored in air guitar, the degree he received was a quota degree which is the equivalent to a white mans GED

        • VulpineMac says:

          That qualifies as libel, you know.

          • onedonewong says:

            Got any creditable evidence to prove me wrong?? Everyone has asked for his college records but he’s refused to produce them. Amazing that Romney and McCain and W had no problem producing them

          • VulpineMac says:

            It is not for me to prove you are wrong; it is for YOU to prove you are right.

          • onedonewong says:

            Barak has been given plenty of time to show that the allegations that have been made by eye witnesses were in fact incorrect. He’s refused so then we are left with no choice but to believe the truth tellers

  47. emadis41 says:

    Apparently the NRA value their guns more than their children. I urge everyone before he write anti-Gun-Control opinion to see the pictures of the Newtown’ s 6 and 7 years old and their teachers who were murdered by Adam Lanza who started his assault by killing the owner of the guns he had to use, his own mother; an NRA member and gun lover, who had 12 guns in her house. He managed to spray his victims with more than 7 bullets each, killing 20 child and six educators before ending his own life.
    The NRA always ignore the fact that the public had spoken, and they support Gun-Control by more than 80%. Their solution to these tragedy is guns and more guns! The USA has the highest number of gun per household in the World, and the highest number of gun related murders in the World. There is 200 million guns in the Country (FBI), but only owned by less than of 10% of the 115 million household, many of these household have children and many have been killed by the guns they own. The actual number of household gun owners is not well known because gun purchase is not controlled and many guns are sold without the proper registration, there are only 4 million registered owners.
    Do more guns save, or guns in the hands of the good guys stop a bad guy in time?
    Did they hear about the 32 killed in Virginia Tech, which do have good guys with guns! Did they see if the malls guards in CO and WA stopping the killing there? The bad guys always will inflict more damage before they mostly kill themselves or be stopped; they always come prepared, as long as they can buy guns and thousands of rounds on the Internet, why not? It is a total anarchy, as the NRA likes it?
    Another issue they always throw at us, the 2nd Amendment, and while it specifically calls for the right of the citizens to arm themselves, and to form militias, neither of this is needed now, the British are not coming anymore!

  48. Pamby50 says:

    Wow. So many people thought the President wouldn’t do anything at all. If he did anything, it would be a token. Pass a bill, move on. Not me. This time it is different. Why can’t we have back ground checks before you can purchase a gun? Why can’t we ban armour piercing bullets? Why can’t we do something regarding mental health? Why can’t the CDC study gun violence? So many things we can do and yet the NRA & the republicans feel we should do nothing. As for the NRA running that despicable ad, yes the President’s children need secret service protection. You all assume that the only reason they have protection is so that they won’t be shot. Wrong. You have nuts out there who would have not problem holding those children hostage. That is why they are treated differently. As for why kids can’t be protected in their own schools, you obviously didn’t hear the President say he wants funding to protect your kids. I’m wondering if the republicans will do that as they don’t believe the government should fund anything.

  49. charleo1 says:

    If you think the Right is nutty about their guns. Talk to them about their religion. Or, immigration.
    Or, The Federal Government, the debt ceiling, the debt in general, Taxes, Jobs, Unions, the Press,
    Job Creators, Communists, Socialist, Maoists, Welfare Queens, Food Stamps, Public Education.
    Compromise, Or anything having to do with either, Barack Obama, George Soros, or George Bush.

  50. puzzled21 says:

    It’s impossible to do because people like you ànd I will never willingly surrender our weapons.
    You could never say with a reasonable certainty that every person in the country was without a weapon. Think about it, when was the last time we counted every person in the country in our census?

    • VulpineMac says:

      Roughly 8 years ago?
      I do agree that people in the US have always had the right to own weapons and that some of those people do own weapons–but maybe happily it is not a law that every person MUST own weapons; we might be in real trouble then.

    • VulpineMac says:

      Roughly 8 years ago?
      I do agree that people in the US have always had the right to own weapons and that some of those people do own weapons–but maybe happily it is not a law that every person MUST own weapons; we might be in real trouble then.

      • puzzled21 says:

        When you say eight years ago, are you referring to a total census? Believe me there has never been a total census. At last count, and we know statistics can be manipulated, there were 146 million gun owners in this country. Approximately 4 million are NRA members.

        • VulpineMac says:

          Every 10 years, by law, there is a census of the United States. By law, everybody is required to enter their names, addresses and the names of any others living within that residence. As such, there is a “total census” taken every 10 years. If you have not filled in that data or responded to a census taker’s questions, you are by law an illegal resident.

          Sure, statistics can be manipulated–just by changing the parameters of the researched data. But when that same data is available to everyone, then somewhere in there is the real truth.

          4 million NRA members is a far cry short of the roughly 800 million American citizens. They’re nowhere near a majority.

  51. montanabill says:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    “I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”
    George Mason

    “And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …”
    Samuel Adams

    “Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    George Washington

    “Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
    Patrick Henry

    “The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution.”
    Thomas Jefferson

    Where in any of the Constitution’s words and our founders’ thinking is the thought that the government may regulate the kind of arms we may keep? This article liberally uses the phrase, ‘extremists’. Is not an extremist one who disagrees with the Constitution or seeks to modify its meaning?

    • VulpineMac says:

      Careful what you say there; it’s an established fact that certain parties continually try to change our Constitution–and they’re not in the Democratic Party.

      • montanabill says:


        • VulpineMac says:

          Now who doesn’t pay attention to the news? How many different Amendments have certain individuals proposed in things like changing the First Amendment? Changing the Second Amendment (such as banning ANY gun ban)? Changing election rules as pertains to who can qualify for President? In the last 5 years specifically I can’t remember ever hearing so many Constitutional challenges coming from Just One Side of the aisle!

          • montanabill says:

            Who has proposed changing the first amendment and what was the proposal?

            The second amendment, “… the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” has been violated by every single gun control law passed. People often mention bazookas or machine guns as legitimate bans. But I submit that there were cannons during the time the amendment was passed and it specifically does not forbid people to own cannons. So how does one contort Arms to not mean certain weapons?

          • VulpineMac says:

            You seem to forget that it is possible to purchase full-on military weapons for personal collections–with requisite paperwork, of course.

          • montanabill says:

            I didn’t forget that at all. It is the ‘requisite paperwork’ and a $200 fee that constitute ‘infringement’. Certainly, New York’s new laws (and old laws) constitute ‘infringement’ and I suspect when they are challenged in court, they will be struck down. Since the Constitution defines owning arms, it is a federal purview, so individual states and cities enacting any law which could be construed as infringement should be struck down.

            Now having argued in favor of bazookas and machine guns, I will say that I approve ownership limitations. Paperwork, if not arbitrarily disapproved or requiring unreasonable approval, is permissible. A $200 charge is not. Think poll tax.

            However, the ludicrous laws trying to define some types of semi-automatic weapons as ‘assault weapons’ and limiting clip capacity are nothing but props for showboating politicians.

          • VulpineMac says:

            So you support higher taxes on everybody to pay for the manpower and research necessary to approve and license an owner. What do you THINK that $200 is for? I personally know a collector who is licensed to own machine guns and I know how he secures them. Believe me, a $200 fee is nothing compared to his security setup.
            And maybe you should look at the current definition of Assault Rifle; you might find that it narrows the list down pretty quickly to modern military-style rifles like the M-16 and M-4. As we’ve already seen, because of their shorter overall length (especially in the case of the M-4 and later) they’re remarkably easy to conceal in a simple overnight bag or under a jacket. And honestly, what hunter needs a 20-round clip or larger to shoot deer? One Shot, One Kill if you’re any good at all. At most you should only need a second or third shot. Maybe a 10-round clip is too small when you’re talking about plinking with a .22, so how about a compromise at 15 rounds–which used to be a standard magazine size for those .22s?

          • montanabill says:

            If the $200 is to pay for processing the paperwork, it is woefully inadequate. So it must simply be a tax designed to discourage submitting the paperwork. I told you to think of ‘poll tax’.

            So if I take off the attached pistol grip and use a rifle style pistol grip, remove attachment railings so I can’t put something so sinister as a flashlight on the gun, use a custom sized stock instead of the villainous AR sliding stock, make sure the barrel length is 16″ or 18″ instead 14.5″, I won’t have an assault rifle? “The evidence is in on the effect of her ( Feinstein’s) previous assault weapons ban: zero, zilch, nada, as the saying goes. The ban made no perceptible difference in the gun violence statistics when it went into effect, and no perceptible difference when it was allowed to expire 10 years later, in 2003.”….Peter Ferrara

            The Second Amendment makes no mention of hunting.

            And yes, if I’m out in the desert hunting jackrabbits, I’ll use a larger clip on my .22 or .223.

            What person familiar with clips, can’t change a clip in 1 or 2 seconds if they practice? Do two clips taped together count as one clip or two?

            Will stopping 32 0z soft drinks lead to skinnier people?

          • VulpineMac says:

            Well, you did hit on one accurate point; making sure it’s a fixed stock instead of a collapsable stock is a factor. Changing the pistol grip to a more conventional Monte-Carlo stock is a factor, too. Now, how about removing that lug for a bayonet?
            Here’s the thing: In Aurora, CO, the shooter had a 100-round magazine on his rifle. Had it not jammed, he would have killed far more people than he did. According to some commentary, nearly every victim–teacher and child–in Newtown had seven (seven) bullet hits in their bodies; had the shooter been forced to swap magazines more often (even if taped together) fewer bullets would have been fired and a better likelihood that the shooter could have been tackled or shot while reloading.
            By the way, how many militias (outside of the National Guard) exist in your area? Based on that argument alone, nobody outside of a Trained Militia should own a weapon. I don’t agree, but the Second Amendment could be taken that way very, very easily.

          • montanabill says:

            How many AR’s have you seen with a bayonet? Why does that make the gun more ominous than a Knights of Columbus ceremonial sword?

            Actually, having a large capacity magazine jam is pretty much the norm in my experience. That is main reason why I don’t normally use them. You are into conjecture concerning the Newtown shooter. Even if he had been forced to swap magazines, he still had plenty of time to do that. He also had additional guns to use to keep people at bay while he changed magazines if he had needed to do that.

            What does a ‘trained militia’ have to do with anything? As the founders wrote, they considered the militia to be all the people. Maybe a little like the Swiss where most men undergo some military training and then keep the militia weapons in their homes. They also carry them out in the open and practice with them a lot. They seem to be a little more ‘well regulated’ than we are.

            Here’s an interesting opinion you might want to read:

            larrycorreia dot wordpress dot com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/

  52. charleo1 says:

    What if I’ve lost my tin foil hat? It seems like Obama’s plans
    for the Country are pretty much like the plans he had for the
    South Side of Chicago, when he took his Ivy League law degree,
    and his unpaid student loans, and took a $13,000 per year
    job helping some of the poorest people in America find healthcare,
    and child care, and job training, and a way out of poverty.
    Now, what did you do after college?

  53. charleo1 says:

    That’s rich. The Republican Party don’t want your guns. They’ve already got your
    freedom, and are working on your kids, and grandkids future. And, all the guns in
    the Country didn’t even slow them down.

  54. TZToronto says:

    Don’t worry. By the time your guns are taken away, you’ll have been dead for a long time.

  55. blueskies13 says:

    If the majority of Americans favor gun control, an easy fix would be to vote out of office any representative who takes money from the NRA. Next election cycle, problem solved. The country is being held hostage by the NRA. It’s what’s known as a DEATH GRIP.

  56. lana ward says:

    Since Omuslim thinks our first task is “protecting children”, then it’s time he proved it by passing a sustainable plan to reduce the deficit!!!!

    • VulpineMac says:

      He has. The Tea Party *Just Said No.*

      • lana ward says:

        No he hasn’t, he’s a liar

        • VulpineMac says:

          Prove it. The simple fact that this most recent Congress was the LEAST productive in American history, exactly who was preventing any kind of progress?

          • lana ward says:

            Omuslim won’t compromise with them on ANYTHING. He wants everything completely his way, and when he doesn’t get his way -he blames the Republicans. Republicans and dem Presidents have ALWAYS compromised!!! Until this phony happened in there. He’s a horrible spoiled brat!!

  57. lana ward says:

    Omuslim cut school training, security equipment and police resources to the tune of 200 million for the school safety funding program!!! Why?? The school protection program which provided 800 million to place police officers inside our schools, Omuslim eliminated it. Why?? He doesn’t give a rip about our kids, or he would have kept these programs in place!!!! It was more important to send that money to mosques around the world, and give the UN BILLIONS!!!!

    • VulpineMac says:

      Who did? Are you sure? Here I thought it was the Tea Party that cut all the appropriations for better schools; better security; better law enforcement.

      • lana ward says:

        Omuslim has been sending MILLIONS of dollars to mosques around the world and is giving BILLIONS to the UN. This is probably why he cut school security programs. Look it up!! IT IS TRUE!! Then he acts like he cares about our kids!! Biggest liar, phony ever!!

        • VulpineMac says:

          You do realize the US owes a significant amount of money to the UN, don’t you? It’s not like Obama created THAT specific debt, or the trillions of dollars wasted on two decade-long wars that we never should have instigated in the first place. Or have you forgotten that our economy AND our nation’s budget were ‘in the black’ before a certain Republican took office?

  58. It is saddening and scary how far this devil spawn obammy will go to make everyone belive he is creditable sane. He is a fool. The worst un-American muslime that was ever born. Other leaders of the world are calling for his removal from office to keep him from causing a nuclear war.

  59. The national memo is a liberal, communist rag and should be outlawed.

  60. mavilasr says:

    The idea of arming teachers is ridiculous. Of course, it falls in the category of wealth for the NRA. They are rejoicing that they do have staunch backers until they fall victims of ASSAULT WEAPONS/MASSACRE. We are now living in an unregulated industry while our children die of gun violence needlessly. No one is against the purchase of guns. However, there is nothing wrong in regulating the use of guns. The use of Vehicles are regulated. You must meet certain criteria to get a license and to use a vehicle. The majority of Americans want a comprehensively thought of regulation in the use of guns–especially those assault weapons built to kill as many as quickly as possible. The next victim might be you or a member of your family unless something is done about this SICK MADNESS!!!!!!!

  61. bchrista says:

    Once again oleTony and Bob answer with their asine remarks anyone with common sense knows that the President doesn’t have a choice as to who guards their family and themselves but they keep trying to muddy the issue by interjecting wise ass remarks instead of being part of the solution they try to create confusion by taking the NRA’s position and they guys claim to have a family with kids and also own guns, well here is a good one for them since the Newtown slaughter and all the gun nuts screaming about not surrending their guns we hae seen a car lot shooting, three people dead one of them a seventeen year old girl a shooting at a mall a shooting at another school a teacher, plus a couple more shootings and now we hear that five people were shot at of all places at gun shows and by people that claim to know how to operate a weapon. Let see one was a dealer that shot someone accidently he didn’t know the gun was loaded another was getting ready to show a deputy sherriff a shot gun another was at a gun show exhibiting a shot gun and all at gun shows in Ohio, Indiana, and the last in North Carolina. Now these are people that claim to be trained to handle guns and they are still having these accidents what about a person tyhat has never handled a weapon and is talked into buying a gun for the first time what can we as the public expect from this person, will we have to send the emergency vehical to his house for an acccidental gun shot and that can also happen to the experience gun handler I would be listening to the Presidents statements it might someday save a loved one.

  62. bchrista says:

    Like I said before Lana Ward is a lying bitch, she, (if sheis a she) wouldn’t know the truth if it hit her between the eyes and the same goes for TonyinMO that last remark where he called Obama a thief what planet did he get that one for. apparently he doesn’t understand the workings and the meaning of the Constutition of the United States, the only people that can dip into the till are the Congress the President can only submit bills to the Senate who in turn pass on them and then they are sent to the Congress and if the Congress passes them then they go to the President for his Signature, at no time does the President touch any money. I wish TonyinMO would explan to us where did he see Obama steal anything I mean that could get him impeached and then TonyinMo would be happy along with his girlfriend Lana Ward and the reat of the leaches that hate Obama they would be rid of him, but I can go to bed confident that my President will wake up in the Presidential Suite. You know one of these days all these lies will catch up with these people ad I would like to be there when they have to pay the Piper becaue what goes around comes around.

  63. bchrista says:

    You know it must be hell when you can’t come up with something original on your own and that happens to be the case with Lana Ward now she has latched on to the often repeated theme which was to arm the teachers, lets see here we have the teachers wearing side arms like Wild Bill Hickock and practacing their fast draw and they accidently shoot one of the children, now comes the good part the parent starts screaming asking why did the teacher have to have a loaded gun in the classroom and she is told the gun is to protect the kids against some crazy coming in to the school to shoot up the school. Mark one for the nobrainer, that’s one, example number two they finally get a crazy in the school of course the crazy is not suppose to know that the teachers are armed to the teeth how many kids do you think will get hit by a stray bullet and remember the crazy is armed to the teeth himself and he’s not coming there to take names and count heads, he’s coming to start raking his Uzi or what ever other automatic he’s carrying the teacher could get lucky and get him with one shot but what if the teacher doesn’t are you willing to gamble your kids life on luck I don’t think so. Remember if the gunman is aware of the armed guards he’s going to be ready we’re not talking about a hobo or homeless that has never used a gun were talking about an intellegent individual that has been planning this attack for God knows for how long and is ready to die as a martyr, he’s beyond reason. Keep listening to the NRA and get ready to stock piling the bodies because it will get worse before it gets better if we keep going the way we are going now, and the next dead child could be yours.

  64. bchrista says:

    You guys keep missing the point Lana Ward has already made up her mind that nothing you guys say means anything shes got a one track mind and that’s all she’ll follow. She doesn’t follow the rule of protocal Obama couldn’t ban all guns because the people using guns to commit crimes either steal their guns from the very people that claim they won’t give up their guns on get them through the underground route, and the underground route is endless and the people that operate these buy world wide they have an endless supply of guns one would have to take all the guns in the world and that’s a tall order right now the President just wants sensible gun control. But the assualt weapons must go.

  65. bchrista says:

    I have been reading the comments written on this chapter of The National MemoIam amazed at the amount of hatred exhibited towards President Obama nothing has met their approval he has been accused of being everything from a muslin to something just of being a human. He has been accused of being a thief, a commie, a muslin a child molester, a person that twists the Constitution to serve himself, he has been accused of not following the Constitutionbecause he didn’t know what was in it this accusation from a person I feel sorry for some one should watch over, the person obviously wasn’t aware that the President majored in the Constitution of the USA and later went on to teach it I would veture to say that all the pundits that comment here added IQ still wouldn’t match his there has been only one President that people considered to not having a great degree of intellegence, Cheney made most of Bush’s decision for him if you ever watched Bush give a presidential speach you would notice how he struggled with his Vocalbulary it is evident that this country is in deep trouble from within, the line of thinking expressed in this Chapter of The National Memo’s is really scary, the line of subjects and how they think the problems should be handled runs parallelwith what the Republican are already doing to this country. These people have been brian washed by the thinking of the Fox News, Beck, limbough, Rove and the rest of the Radical right and to top it off one of them had the balls to state that The National Memo, now stop and think here’s a person that no one begged to come on board posts a comment and in the end states that TNM should be considered illegal to read, is that cohoneys or what. If you want to ban a news media go get Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdock, an Englishman that was run out of his own countrybecause of certain illegal dealings and he came here and started Fox News and continues to spew nothing but lies and made up bullshit that have no factual truth to them. Yes I watch Fox News three times a week when I go to the GYM and exercise on the treadmill for the 30 minutes I do on the TMand I catch up on the lies they have for that day some I find funny as hell that someone would go to such extremes and they use people that couldn’t hold a decent job with a decent TV station the last guest I watched was none other than Ollie, Oliver North here was a guy that was run out of the Service in shame for violating the Service Code of Ethics like that morris guy that told Fox’s viewing audience that he had checked and that Mitt Romney would win the election by a landslide Fox hasn’t used his services since then.

  66. puzzled21 says:

    As someone who has spent some time working as a census employee in LA, in the Comton/Watts communities, I can assure you that not everyone in the country is counted. A lot is estimated. As far as my comment about the NRA it was to point out that they don’t speak for the majority of weapon owners as they would have you believe. I was trying to convey to Lana the impossibility of disarming every person in the country.

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