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Saturday, October 1, 2016

New Yorkers will see insurance premiums that are at least 50 percent lower than what they currently pay when the Affordable Care Act takes effect, Governor Andrew Cuomo (D-NY) announced Wednesday.

As House Republicans prepare to vote Wednesday afternoon to repeal both the individual and employer mandates of Obamacare, this “triumph” for the health care law shows exactly why the individual mandate is crucial to bringing down high health insurance prices.

New York State already has both “community rating” and “guaranteed issue,” which means people cannot be charged more or turned down for coverage based on an existing condition or health risk.

Likewise, Obamacare ends the ability of insurers to deny coverage or charge more based on “pre-existing conditions.” But New York didn’t have a requirement for people to be insured. Thus private insurance companies took on the risk of covering the sickest New Yorkers and in return, they passed the costs on to those who could afford to purchase coverage. As a result, the state’s rates could be as high as double the national average.

“If there was any state that the ACA could bring rates down, it was New York,” said Timothy Jost, a law professor at Washington and Lee University.

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In May, Deloitte had predicted that the average individual would see a 13.9 percent reduction in rates. But even with a 50 percent reduction, the cheapest plan in New York City is still $359 a month, the Washington Post‘s Sarah Kliff notes, before government subsidies.

  • Lynda Groom

    In bazarro world such news can only be bad.

  • Dominick Vila

    This is the reason the GOP is in a frenzy in their attempts to repeal Obamacare before it is fully implemented. The likelihood of lower insurance premiums resulting from a larger pool of insured and the use of exchanges is poison to those who only see evil socialism in everything related to government.

    • paperpushermj

      Keep in mind the Insurance cost for 2014 are just projections at this time. You might want to hold off your critique of those of us that don’t believe Politicians
      Promises, until these cost are written in stone.
      Better yet wait until 2015 when the adjustments in pricing takes place to cover the reality seperating what they hoped would happen vs what is happening.

      • bikejedi

        This is true and until it is set in stone no one should believe anything they say . But be careful if you speak against this they will say you are being paranoid about Socialism or label you a racist

        • edwardw69

          How is it Socialism, when it is a mandate to buy insurance from private, for-profit companies? And how many times have you been asked to explain that?

          • Mark Forsyth

            Don’t you know? Anything that comes from the gubment and is designed to help the general populace is Socialism.
            The above statement is made in a low croaking voice-ribet.

          • Justin Napolitano

            I guess that includes Social Security, right? If you don’t like it refuse to accept it. No one is forcing you to collect.

          • Mark Forsyth

            Do you even understand my statement? I am not the one who is complaining about the social programs.You should make sure that you are wide awake before posting comments.

          • bikejedi

            First I didn’t say it was Socialism . I said if someone speaks out against it then they would be accused of not liking it based on the fear of it being Socialist .. Then they would be called a racist …No one has ever asked me to explain it until now …What I would say if asked is…. It isn’t ” totally ” Socialist YET ….The Problem is that they designed the bill to epically fail . You can’t fund it on the backs of young working people who don’t get sick and will opt for the TAX PENALTY instead of 10 to 20 k for an insurance policy . These young people probably enjoy health care from their employer now , but due to Obamacare their Companies will take the opt out the Dems built into the law …I mean think logically , a Company will have the option to pay ever increasing premiums to insure their employees or opt out and take a hit on their Corporate taxes …Currently the estimates to cover the employee range from 8 to 20 K and the max Tax Penalty is 3 K …Do the math the Companies have been given the INCENTIVE to opt out . And before you or the Occupier wing of the left blames greedy Capitalists remember it was the DEMs that gave the Companies this INCENTIVE to not insure their employees … That isn’t greed that is common sense …When their Companies cut their healthcare that will leave young yuppies with the choice of buying insurance themselves or the pay the Tax Penalty so their money can be redistributed to people on entitlements. Redistributed in the form of a new benefit . What do you think a healthy young person is going to do ????? 10 to 20 k for insurance or 300 in a Tax Penalty …These Yuppies are going to be mad too . they will have seen their bennies but while they pay a Tax Penalty so people on entitlement get something they think is free and from Obama …Of course it isn’t free but if it gets them to vote Dems the left will be happy Meanwhile you will have a net increase in the number of Americans who don’t have any coverage . The difference is that the people who aren’t covered will be working people who deserve it .. So after it becomes apparent that Obamacare could never fund itself in this incarnation the Dems will scream single payer and then it becomes Socialist . Look if you want to insure most Americans which might not be bad they should of done it using a 1% National Sales Tax . That would’ve been easily absorbed and assimilated to by Americans . It also means EVERYONE would be paying into it ( a REAL Fair and Balanced plan ) . Not just workers in the Private sector and their employers who abhor the economy crushing bill . Thank You for the civility Edward

          • edwardw69

            Healthy young people may wish to spin the cylinder of a six-shot pistol, with only one bullet loaded, and when they hold it to their head and pull the trigger….. they hope it isn’t them that gets cancer at the age of 28, or has a near-fatal auto accident with a year of expensive recovery, or….well, name the catastrophe that can happen to the young.
            It’s insurance. They should pray they never need it, and thank Mr. Obama if they do.
            And thank you for your civility, Sir.

          • bikejedi

            I agree especially since the young tend to take more risks …just keep in mind that the way the bill is written pre existing conditions have to be covered … I’m envisioning Insurance packages springing up that you can have a phone app for ….Ok so now the young man gets in a crash and the ambulance scrapes him up …he is on the way to the Hospital and takes out his phone and scrolls down to the BUY INSURANCE NOW app …and walla he is insured ….It isn’t Healthcare that I am against …This bill just plain sucks …My idea as I said would have been a 1% National sales tax and as I said I think that is a much fairer solution ..

          • edwardw69

            Well, I do not have any idea if a 1% sales tax would cover everyone. If it did, I would be in agreement. It seems simple, but why hasn’t it been considered? What is the argument against it?

          • bikejedi

            I don’t know if the 1% would cover it either but I think someone at politicalmath or Investors Business Daily crunched the numbers and said it would work . I will try to find it …tell you the truth I am going to have to see if I can remember where I saw it . I did however like the concept and personally think it would work . I believe that businesses armed with the knowledge that they don’t personally have to figure out the complexities of ACA and how it was going to effect their bottom lines would start hiring immediately. I also believe that armed with the knowledge that they ( the Companies ) weren’t going to have to pay for it….. and that is was going to be based on a sales tax… I think they would hire immediately . I think the original argument against it was when the bill was being written , the economy was sucky at the time . We can debate the reasons forever but lets just acknowledge that is was a bad economy at the time the law was being written .” I ” believe both the Dems and Obama didn’t want to put a new tax or raise taxes on Americans when they wrote the bill . One of the ways they tried to sell it is by saying they could do it by not raising taxes . So they came up with the current incarnation . I think they should just take a look at other avenues and this sales tax is one I could live with . I think Companies relieved of the stress and accounting while also having a” rules ” book that they knew was stable would hire immediately and that would be good for everyone . It would also increase the pool of tax payers while decreasing unemployment …I think all of this is win win and I wouldn’t care If Obama took full credit for it ..In fact if he got them to switch to this he would deserve the credit . You ask why hasn’t it been considered and I think at the time it was because Obama promised he wouldn’t raise taxes and wanted to keep that promise …And I would say at least you and I are considering it so that’s a start …talk to your friends I’ll talk to mine … I believe there is a perception on the left that the right would oppose ANY Healthcare bill and I’m here to tell you that’s just not the case . I also am not concerned whether or not Obama gets the credit . I think most would start to like him better if this were a success and actually had the benefit of jump starting the economy to boot . Think about this also…it would take away the whole Obamacare is Socialism right out of the equation . I think this idea should be revisited and the time is now . By the way I do lean right . But unlike a lot of people on both sides of the coin I read the National Memo …Why ? I like to see how the other side thinks ..I may not agree with it, but if you don’t look at the other side how will you know what they think and why …A lot of times when I post here it becomes name calling because some people don’t want to here a dissenting view and also I admit I can get snarky … So anyway TY for the conversation

          • edwardw69

            I steer clear of the comments sections of CNN and Fox. The back and forth vilification is numbing and uninformative. I like this site, because I do lean left-of-center and like to have my convictions sustained. However, I am open to ideas that are reasoned and detailed, and do change my mind on certain occasions. I am one of those who oppose ACA because it doesn’t go far enough.

            I admit that I believe in a government that is democratically socialist, with a well-regulated capitalistic system as an economic engine; for example, the Scandinavian countries.

            I am retired from the US Army.
            Thank you for the civilized conversation.

          • bikejedi

            Thank you for your service …My problem with the Scandinavian model or the other European models is that they will all eventually run out of funding …Remember that these Countries can do a little more Socialism because they don’t have a defense budget ..There’s this big Country across the pond giving that to them through NATO … In the end I am of the mind that Democracy and Socialism don’t last together because eventually you have people willing to give up their freedom in exchange for being sated ….then they start voting for more sating and that is when the Democracy part of it ends …You then have people voting instead of working and they outnumber the workers …at that point it really isn’t a Democracy like we would define it …Of course that is my opinion but I base it on what happens in all Socialist nations eventually

          • edwardw69

            The Scandinavian experiment is still running: no way to know what will ensue. They are still doing some fine-tuning.
            Sweden has a strong military: even the Nazis wouldn’t mess with them. But no, no one has what we have–including more Admirals than we have ships.
            As for “all Socialist nations,” I have no knowledge of which they were:
            the Soviet Union? Wasn’t.
            National Socialism? No.
            Cuba? Hardly.
            They can call themselves whatever they will, but that doesn’t make it so. Totalitarianism is the antithesis of Socialism.
            I agree about sloth vs. work. We agree on that.

          • bikejedi

            I think if the Nazis would have wanted to go into Sweden they would of steamrolled them But that is neither here nor there ..I Think time will tell on the Scandinavian experiment but I don’t think history is on their side

          • edwardw69

            Yes, they would have steamrolled them. But the Nazis would have come out with their shorts in tatters. The same with the Swiss. But, we digress.
            As for the Scandinavians, they were practically the only ones not affected to any great degree by the economic turndown of 2007. Banking regulations, perhaps?

          • bikejedi

            perhaps

          • Mark Forsyth

            You hit on the crux of the matter edwardw69.So many people these days,mostly younger,cannot differentiate fascism from socialism or communism.Witness the further dumbing down of America.One might think that these fools who want to do away with funding for public education would want the up and coming generations to at least know who to point their guns at.

          • edwardw69

            Too bad the kids don’t have to answer some basic questions about history and geography in order to open Facebook.

          • Mark Forsyth

            Hell,that should be a requirement just to get on a computer,minus the games and for information purposes only.Remember encyclopedias?

          • edwardw69

            I cut my teeth on those, and National Geographic–when they had few pictures, and those were black and white.

          • Mark Forsyth

            I can’t recall when I did not have a few copies of Nat Geo in the house.Don’t laugh,but I still have the sixties and seventies version of World Book Encyclopedia in its own bookcase.Hell,my folks bought that for me way back in 1963.I still reference it from time to time,mostly to make comparrisons to contemporary sources of info.

          • edwardw69

            American Peoples Encyclopedia. I still have volume #1. 1954.
            I ate them all. But, there was a small black/white TV that got three channels, but I preferred to read. Is it worse now? I am not the judge.

          • paperpushermj

            Yeah I have one on my Computer.

          • paperpushermj

            There you go again Mark blowing Smoke about something you know nothing about. We want Well Educated Citizen in Our Future. We see Government Schools aka Public Schools failing in certain Places such as Inner cities and are willing to say they are failing, so lets try something else that has a good tract record at achieving the results we desire. Well Educated People

            It’s Our Birth Right to Them.

            ._____________________________.

            “One might think that these fools who want to do away with funding for public education would want the up and coming generations to at least know who to point their guns at”.

          • paperpushermj

            I Challenge this Statement and ask you what scale you are using. Is it as simple as Communist think Socialist are to their Right? You used the word Antithesis which means the opposite.

            Don’t mean to be picky but I’m Boggled !
            ._________________________________________.
            “Totalitarianism is the antithesis of Socialism”.

          • Allan Richardson

            Most people want to work, and want to earn enough to have a decent life. I understand that you LEAN right, and on some issues even liberals do. What disturbs me is the number of voters who are willing to give up not only their POLITICAL freedom but turn over their ECONOMIC freedom to corporations who are NOT democratically elected, trading their votes not for an ACTUAL reward but for the ILLUSION of freedom and opportunity when their economic situation is rigged by those who are ALREADY rich (I compare that to allowing the winner of the Superbowl in one year to write the rules, hire and fire referees and the Commissioner, and change the rules to their advantage in the middle of any game in the next season; would any other team EVER be able to win it again?). You seem to be smart enough to recognize that many of your fellow conservative voters are voting to give themselves a Raw Deal.

          • bikejedi

            Corporations wield influence on both party’s …The Dems like to claim they are for the little guy and Obama lost that argument for your side when he chose to delay implementation of the ACA for Corporations and didn’t extend the same thing for the individual …The House just voted to extend the same thing for the Individual ( read middle class tax payers ) So that you guys need to work on that within your own side ..and anyway this will take it way OT

          • Lynda Groom

            You have to ask yourself why the administration listened to business and delayed their mandate. The bill passed into law made implementation of the employer mandate unnecessarily complicated for both employers and the administration. The House plan would have allowed employers with 50 or more workers to contribute a portion of their payroll to covering their employees, and would have been less difficult to implement than the Senate version that became law, which requires companies to offer coverage to employees who work 30 hours or more a week.
            We should all be pleased that the administration indeed did listen and understand the difficulty upon employers. When government listens and works with the private sector we just might all win out.

          • bikejedi

            I’m cool with that post and statement . Although I think they did it ( the delay ) not for the companies but for self serving political considerations . ( IE the mid terms ) I also don’t like the fact that under the Obama Dem Delay they only favored the Corporations and didn’t extend that delay to individuals in the middle class . The the GOP fixed that in their version …Not trying to argue …Just saying ..

          • paperpushermj

            We want a smaller Government which I believe leads to the very goal you seek, that being the demise or at least a big reduction in what I believe is Crony Capitalism.

            Getting Money out of the System, can only work one way and writing more rules or regs will not work because who writes the Rules?. Washington’s power is for sale to whoever has enough money. The only why that will work, is to diminish the product that’s for sale. The less a government official has to sell the more irrelavent they become. You see I/We want a smaller less Intrusive Government and it wouldn’t hurt if it ran more efficiently either.

            A smaller Government leads to your goal.

          • Lynda Groom

            Here the average amounts spent per person in Denmark, Norway, Sweden and the USA.
            Denmark $3,108
            Norway $4,328
            Sweden $3,012
            USA $3,426
            The first three countries nearly all are covered, not so much in the United States. They all have better overall outcomes than our system. So far there is no sign that Scandinavia is going broke or running out of funding for their healthcare system. We’ve been hearing such claims for decades and we still are not seeing such results. Indeed they have their own set of problems, but as of today none of our competing nations have been rushing to set up our system in their countries.

          • bikejedi

            Im a little confused . By better outcomes are you saying if you had Cancer or Heart disease you would rather go one of their hospitals ? Because our survivability rates are much better in the US . You also wont have to wait a year and a half in the US to get a broken foot taken care of like my ex girl friend is in Canada .
            While you have valid points only time will tell about the Scandinavian system . You also have a valid point about none of these Countries rushing to our system ,but also take into account that the US , because of our system , has always been the leader in medical technology and research so there are trade offs .

          • Sand_Cat

            Sweden isn’t part of NATO.

          • bikejedi

            Yes but they are in Europe so they know… the US through NATO has their back . My point is that they know the US and NATO would not let them fall without some response . You point is noted however

          • Mark Forsyth

            I’m no expert,but why do they run out of funding.I wouldn’t slam them too hard for not having a defense budget[are you sure about that?] It seems maybe that their priorities are focused more on peace than they are on war.

          • bikejedi

            They run out of funding because most Companies will take the Tax Penalty rather the buy insurance . The Opt out is much cheaper then the insurance hence they incentivized Companies to opt out . Others will cut their employees to part time and this is why last week all the Unions who supported the Dems and the ACA now want exemptions and they have sent Obama an open letter claiming that the ACA will result in the end of full time employment for the middle class . They now oppose the ACA . More part time workers equal less collected taxes and less ability by these people to not only be able to pay their bills but to fuel the economy through their purchases . Individuals who are now covered will have their company supplied benefits ( of course this wont affect all the people in Govt Public Unions because we pay theirs ) Anyway when these people lose their coverage they will be forced by Mandate to purchase Insurance or opt out and pay a Tax Penalty …The Tax Penalty is far cheaper and young people think they are invincible so they will opt out . Because of Companies and the young being incentivized to opt out not enough people will pay in and the whole thing implodes due to lack of funding . As for your assertion that these other places are focused more on peace I agree …But most of these Countries ( at least the one in Europe) know they don’t have to worry about defense because we have their back

          • Lynda Groom

            The word tax was enough to kill any such discussion for portions of our elected leadership.

          • paperpushermj

            Good question why don’t you ask the two people who gave a thumbs down on the idea where they find fault for the answer?

          • Sand_Cat

            It isn’t healthcare you’re against, just healthcare supported by Democrats, or that actually provides “care.”
            If you don’t like it, and think it sucks, go scream at Romney and the Heritage Foundation. It’s their plan.

          • bikejedi

            Sand Cat do you buy that Line ????? If so you should examine the differences and then factor in that the model that was Mass under Romney in no way resembles the whole of the United States …thank you for being civil

          • Sand_Cat

            Well, I wasn’t very civil, but you’re welcome, anyway.

          • Dominick Vila

            When was the last time you read an opinion in this forum accusing people that oppose ACA of being racists? The 20 million plus people that currently don’t have insurance coverage and use Emergency Rooms when they are in desperate need of medical care include members of every ethnicity in our society. The same goes for recipients of MEDICAID services, welfare and food stamps. You are as likely to find them in parts of Alabama as you as in Texas, California or Illinois.
            Poverty is not limited to certain ethnic groups or states. It can be found everywhere and it includes members of all ethnic groups. As a result, it would be illogical to accuse anyone of being racist unless the rationale used by the ill advised individual encompasses the human race as a whole, in which case that person should seek professional help immediately. Needless to say, there is also another group that prefers ER freebies for reasons other than poverty. That group, who I suspect is influenced by greed and irrational ideological leanings, opposes personal responsibility in favor of socialized medical care at Emergency Rooms, and then claims that a program that includes a mandate to get insurance coverage from for-profit insurance companies is evidence of socialism!

          • bikejedi

            News just in ……The House Republicans just answered and are putting up for the Little Guy and Middle Class . They have agreed with Obama ( see not obstructing… see ) on the delay of Obamacare and have extended that delay not only to Companies but to the PEOPLE also ….moving right along …..

            Dom to answer your question above … it happens to me everytime I post on here no matter the topic …not from you but other posters . That is why I am trying my best to just have conversations with people who don’t resort to that ..

            At the end of your post you used the point that it cant be Socialism if you are having to get Insurance from a private company …In my post I logically pointed out that most wont buy , nor get , Insurance and the reasons for it . Also I did point out that one of the hallmarks of Socialism is the redistribution of wealth …the ACA does that in spades and will have the added negative consequence of those who are producers paying tax penalties while losing coverage . I also pointed out that the very easy to predict implosion of Obamacare will result in the Dems going for single payer …These are the reason the right sees Socialism …On to what you posted We all know the problems that you just posted about . I never even mentioned anything about emergency rooms Medicaid etc ..Nor did I post about ethnic groups or any of that so I am having a hard time with your correlations ..I was replying to what you asked …I was replying to the delay of implementation …I was trying to display the way the right thinks on this and the reasons they think the way we do . … With what you posted You seem to be trying to make the case for a Healthcare bill and As I pointed out we on the right aren’t necessarily opposed to that …So Ok we both know what you posted are reasons for a Bill ..What I posted was the reasons the ACA will fail why it hurts America and I also gave suggestions as to a better method … I understand that your post revolves around the need for a bill I don’t understand the relevance as most on the right aren’t opposed to a bill we just think this one sucks and wont work …I think I laid out logical reasons why it wont ..Can You answer if and why you think it will ? By that I mean how the funding will ever work ?? Also What do you think of my proposal of an alternative ?? Thank You

          • Dominick Vila

            Are you insinuating that House Republicans embrace bipartisanship because supported President Obama on his decision to capitulate and delay one of the most important facets of ACA? Their latest move simply confirms that our President has a tendency to succumb under pressure, and when he does the GOP is delighted to solidify their legislative victories.
            ACA has nothing to do with redistribution of wealth, a more accurate example of that practice involves what happened during the occupation of Iraq, when billions of dollars were given to corporations such as Halliburton, Bechtel, Blackwater USA and others after awarding sole source contracts for projects they seldom completed.
            Using taxpayers money to support programs the general public – the American society – benefits from is the centerpiece of the concept of government and the very reason we all pay taxes. Giving it to 1% to our population, or to foreign government to ensure the geopolitical or economic goals of a tiny elite are protected – is a more accurate example of redistribution of wealth.

          • bikejedi

            No I was just pointing out that the Obstructionist talking point is just flawed on so many levels that is becomes laughable . I was also factually pointing out that Obama ONLY exempted Companies in his decision to delay the bill . He didn’t once think about the common man . So my point was two fold , but mostly I was pointing out that the old argument that the Dems and Obama are for the little guy and the middle class while the GOP is only for Corporations …..Well please don’t use that anymore . I didn’t come here to argue about ideology and this conversation will devolve to that if we go OT ..While you may have some points about defense contractors ….well those guys always win when there is a war going on …and really that has nothing to do with the ACA …I guess what Im saying is this will just devolve into an srgument if we go OT and Im not trying to be an A by saying that ..and once again TY for keeping it civil …We can have those philosophical debates another day .

          • jmprint

            Your opinions are just that, not facts, most of your postings are based on assumptions. Congress is already re-distributing our wealth, they take our taxes and pay for their health plan. Is that fair to the person that can not afford to pay for insurance?

            I can’t afford insurance, so I can’t get a colonoscopy, I am suppose to have one every three years. I am at my third year. If I don’t get this done chances are I will end up with colon cancer. This in the long run will cost the American people more money, because I will be using the emergency room as needed. I too am waiting for an insurance I can afford. I have been a responsible person all my life, since I was fifteen years old, have always paid for my own insurance, until I just couldn’t afford it anymore. I am not the only one in this situation, there are millions of us. We need affordable health care. We need a start. What have you to loose personally, besides your ideology!

          • bikejedi

            Yes but they are logical assumptions . Also I’m not trying to argue ideologies , that would just bog the whole thing down . My point is that the ACA cannot succeed from a funding standpoint and because of that I believe we should look at a better fairer more logical way to do it . I think a lot of people on the left have invested so much effort defending this Bill that they are invested in that ideology . These people don’t want to stray from that out of loyalty to ..I don’t know …maybe Obama or the lefts own ideology that they don’t want to look at other and better alternatives to fund it . And by the way , unless you are on entitlements or can get into one of the State Pools you Insurance cost is going to sky rocket . That isn’t my opinion it is what is already happening in response to the law . And no , I’m not trying to rain on the parade of those who support the ACA .

          • paperpushermj

            What a cheap way to dismiss your protagonist points… It’s just opinion not fact. The way to counter points is with counter points not to shuffle them off into the ” It’s just your Opinion” column.

          • jmprint

            Oh the teabagger is here to tell me how to communicate. Too bad you think your ears not worthy of my drama. Can you answer this question? What have you to loose personally, besides your ideology!

          • paperpushermj

            It’s difficult to respond to a post when it starts with name calling.
            Not telling you how to communicate just seeing it for what it is, a dodge, a way of not responding by dismissing it.
            Sorry about you health care problems but in sharing that you unwittingly gave more proof that the ACA as written is financially unsustainable. If you care?
            Come jan 1 you I’m sure will buy the cheapest plan available that covers your medical condition, that care will cost I dare say far more then what your premiums put in. Giving weight to the argument that come jan1 Millions of people with pre-condition will show up on the rolls of the ACA. All paying less into the system then what will be pouring out for their care. This is a house of cards built on sand and will fail, but i don’t think poorly of you, your just trying to grab what you can while you can.

          • jmprint

            boo hoo, you might have to pay into a tax system that provides help, I feel for you. Isn’t it funny how the price of gasoline goes up every time there is an assumption.

          • paperpushermj

            After that Boo Hoo Response It dawned on me what Is Blocking Up your Colon.

          • jmprint

            See that’s your whole problem, you are not a nice human being.

          • paperpushermj

            Not sure… Are you playing Jewish Guilt or Catholic Shame?

          • jmprint

            Neither, just stating my opinion as you do. Not facts, just opinions!

          • jmprint

            You that’s what wrong with you, you are not a nice person.

          • Allan Richardson

            When a healthy young person gets sick (and people DO get sick at a young age, check out the patient list at St. Jude’s; a few people used up their LIFETIME insurance maximum just getting out of the NICU at birth) or gets messed up in a car accident or doing some Jackass movie stunts, and he or she has no insurance, the rest of us have to pay for ER care; and if ER care cannot fix the underlying problem, then “give them charity or give them death.” Most young people who CAN get insurance and CAN pay for it do so. Obamacare will make it cheaper by providing BOTH an incentive (the penalty) AND assistance so that almost all people will be able to get insurance. Most conservative plans to get people to do something provide ONLY the incentive penalty with NO assistance. Like throwing a life preserver on a 50 foot rope to someone who is drowning 100 feet away.

            I do not like everything about Obamacare, but it certainly beats the “hope someone will sell it to me” system we have now. I would have suggested using the penalty tax AS a premium and have them covered automatically. I would have preferred single payer (not that it would stop you from buying EXTRA insurance if you can afford it; that would cover the VIP Suite in the hospital). If a one or two percent sales tax, or a voluntary extra Medicare payroll tax, would cover everybody, I’m all for that. I don’t even care if you call it “socialist.”

            The word “socialism” has become as cheap an insult as the word “Holocaust” becomes when it is used in reference to anything less than the World War Two genocide of the Nazis. Not all government-run programs are socialist; socialism is an economy in which ONLY the government is allowed to become a major player. The fact is, some things ARE better done by government, for reasons of fairness (what if the “police corporation” had a quota of arrests and a bonus if they exceeded it? oh wait, in some states they do) or efficiency (really, would a for-profit corporation do a better job than the VA for our veterans?), or because something in our “commons” needs work, and no individual wants to be the one to pay for it (or can afford to), such as roads, parks, libraries, and public schools. Other things are better done by the profit motive. But even those need some safety regulation: bought any UNINSPECTED meat lately, or would you even want to?

            I am glad that you are more reasonable than I thought at first. It has been good conversing with you. Now if only your political leaders would become a little more reasonable, we could make some progress on our common problems. The political leaders on my side mean well, but they are so over the top “reasonable” that your leaders walk all over them.

          • bikejedi

            Thank You ..and I see that you posted reasons for a Bill… Will anyone admit that the ACA cant work for funding reasons or tell me why you think it will work ? ……Both of you do know the selling points of a Bill neither has addressed why you think the funding will work . In the Socialism issue .While Dom gave the point that just because you are forced to buy from private companies I countered with the logic that few will buy it or be able to afford it . The funding will fail . The next step will be a single payer that would be Socialist but I’ll table that . The wealth redistribution if the ACA … taking money from producers and giving it to people on entitlements is classic Socialist . I’m not saying that taking care of people isn’t necessary but they can pay in too With the sales tax idea they would and this would shut up one of the concerns of the right . It would also be fairer … You see I’m from Chicago where we recognize this . The goal is for a single payer with the expanding Govt and the influence consolidating command and control . I am glad we can have a discussion …What do you people think of the alternative I listed of a sales tax to fund it …no one has addressed that ? And one thing I will strongly disagree with ….your assessment of your rulers . I don’t think they have mine, yours, or the Country’s best interests at heart . A Representative Republic combined with Free Market Capitalism has brought us the greatest Nation on Earth . It has brought the greatest amount of prosperity and opportunity to the greatest number of people on Earth …is it perfect ? No its just the best system this planet has ever seen …so when you want to change that to a model that has proven to be a failure then your leaders aren’t well meaning . They are looking for a way to build fiefdoms and legacy seats like in Illinois .. That is one of the reasons for the expansion of govt and entitlements …They will make a majority that will never vote any other way….. just so they keep power .My side is not much better …TY

          • paperpushermj

            You’re reasoning is correct unfortunately you’re asking to much of people. Evidence being no one has Answered you request for dialog. Facts do not pass through to the bumpers sticker people. Now If you could reduce all you said on to a bumper sticker, your in Business.
            .
            PS: try this one i have it on my Car
            THE BIGGER THE GOVERNMENT THE SMALLER THE PERSON

          • edwardw69

            Yes.

          • paperpushermj

            No you didn’t bring up Socialism, but they needed to change the subject to divert away from answering your pointed questions they found to hard to answer.

          • bikejedi

            True

          • Justin Napolitano

            Are you stupid or what. Companies offer health insurance to attract employees. If they stop offering it many will move to a company that does. Millions of people stay with a company because of the benefits. If they get rid of the benefits they will lose many of their most valued employees. A company thrives or fails based on the people that work there. I don’t see many companies cutting their own throat.

          • bikejedi

            Wow it didn’t take you anytime at all to show your intelligence level or intolerance with your name calling . To answer your question have you seen the job market in the private sector ? Do you work ? And if no Companies are offering a package what difference does it make ? Have you read the survey that the WSJ and Inv Bus Daily did ? They already show 37% will cut coverage and the pain hasn’t even started

          • Dominick Vila

            Either the people who refer to ACA as a socialist program don’t have a clue what socialism is, or they are simply using the term as an insult rather than a reference of fact.
            Examples of socialized healthcare can be found in several Western European countries where service providers (doctors, nurses, lab technicians and other medical professionals) work for the government, and where the government owns the hospitals and labs. Consistent with the essence of socialism, private practice and for profit institutions are also available in most of those countries for those who prefer individualized and more dedicated attention.

          • paperpushermj

            What other Goods or Service will be mandated for purchase? Surly you don’t think this new power to force citizens into a contract against their will, will stop with Healthcare do you?
            Its like giving a Thief a Gun

          • edwardw69

            Who is talking about any other good or service? And surely I do think it will stop with healthcare, since it is about healthcare. Unless, of course, we come to our senses and adopt Universal healthcare, and cut the insurance companies out of it. Medicare for all: VA, Medicaid, CHIPS, and all other programs rolled into one.

          • paperpushermj

            So you think this new power will stop with Healthcare and you base that on HOPE ?

            I share no such hope, mostly because this power is to important to Government to not use it now that the precedent has been set.

          • GreginPottsville

            Like I told the person above, if Obama wants to push a bill thru that every homeowner MUST “purchase” solar panels or face a big “tax” in order to save the planet, what is to stop him if Congress passed such a bill?

          • paperpushermj

            Now with the Supreme Court Ruling on the ACA … NOTHING !!!

          • Justin Napolitano

            The President does not pass any laws Congress does. And it was congress that passed the ACA law.

          • GreginPottsville

            Yeah, no kidding. Notice I didn’t type anything about the President passing anything. I wrote “push a bill thru” and wrote “if Congress passed such a bill”. So I have no idea what your reply to my post is trying to get at.
            Just a side note. The Senate didn’t actually pass the ACA bill. They “deemed” the House version as passed. But hey, who cares with something that big how it passes, right?

          • paperpushermj

            Oh you are a true believer, which is Ok, no Imagination but a true believer though.

          • GreginPottsville

            It opens the door. What if Obama wanted everyone who owns there home to purchase solar panels to save the planet or face a fine? How can anyone stop that?

          • charleo1

            What other goods or services do you think we’ll be ordered
            to purchase next? Being a Liberal/Communist, I would
            mandate all T-Party members purchase old Obama campaign paraphernalia, and be required to wear it all times. Until such
            time as they make a formal apology to the Country. Especially
            the women of the Country. But giving guns to criminals, is
            already been covered by the NRA. Sorry!

          • paperpushermj

            How about mandating citizens purchase a life insurance policy with the proceeds going to Social Security as a way to help cover the large disparity of what you pay in vs what you takes out. In most cases a retiree recoups all the money supposedly placed in their account within the first 3 to 4 years in retirement.

            As a self professed progressive you pen well the Authoritarian
            nature of your credo.

          • charleo1

            Actually, Social Security is solvent for the next 35 years,
            if no changes at all are made. Presently the cap on SS is
            at, I’m sure I’ll get corrected on this. But at about $107,000.
            Which hasn’t been raised since $107 thousand was big
            money. Without getting too far into the weeds. Raising the
            cap a minimal amount could secure SS for the next 80 years.
            Yes, today’s SS recipients depend on today’s worker’s
            contributions. As tomorrow’s, that’s you, will depend on the
            next generation. Did you know that before SS 67% of all
            Americans, over the age of 65 died without a cent to their name? Now, think about that for a second. SS has been
            the most successful anti-poverty program ever instituted
            for the working class ever. In spite of that, the GOP has
            been aganist SS, just like they were aganist Medicare, in
            the 60s, and healthcare reform today. Just like they took
            ACA to the Supreme Court, and lost. They took SS there,
            at it’s inception, and lost. Ask Seniors where they would be today, if not for these two programs. What do you think
            80/90% of them would tell you? Do you want to know the
            real deal? The real deal, is you can let these politicians
            talk you into dispensing with SS, and Medicare too.
            Turn both over to Wall Street. But, remember this.
            These guys got no skin in the game they want you to play.
            And they never will. Only one or two of the 530 some
            serving now, are not already wealthy. But, even if they weren’t, their retirement, and healthcare are guaranteed.
            And as sure as you think I’m a Liberal loony, fixated on
            living off someone else’s dime. Some f these guys will
            free market your butt to the poor house. And never lose
            a minutes sleep over it.

          • paperpushermj

            First that SS 35 year solvency you quoted includes the basements full of Bonds that Washington replaced for the surplus cash that flowed into the treasury. Where does Washington get the cash to redeem those Bonds?

            Second you completely Misrepresent either on purpose or through ignorance the Rights position on SS and Medicare. These are seen as important social programs but they are in trouble and need intervention to keep them running for future generations. You yourself acknowledged this problem when you offered up your solution by raising the $107,000 income cap. So if you are claiming those who understand that SS and even medicare need some course adjustment to survive, are in fact against those programs …Include yourself.

          • Justin Napolitano

            Where does Washington get the money to redeem the bonds that China, pension funds and other countries buy?
            By the way SS money help pay for the Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan wars. So SS recipients are entitled to the money since they paid into the fund. Tax the filthy rich, raise the SS contribution, I don’t care. Americans paid in the are entitled to receive benefits.

          • paperpushermj

            “Tax the filthy rich, raise the SS contribution, I don’t care. Americans paid in the are entitled to receive benefits”.

            ______________________________.
            It’s quite evident you don’t care as long as you get what’s available from the Government grab bag.

          • Justin Napolitano

            That is not true. Have you forgotten that Social Security funds are invested and always have been. The fund receives interest income every year. Therefore, money paid into the fund over 40 years earns income which is compounded. It takes more than a few years to receive all of the money that accumulated.

          • GreginPottsville

            You are really sad.

          • charleo1

            No. Actually I’ve got the best of everything a person could
            ask for. My health, my freedom, and the love of my family.
            And the great good fortune to have had one of the wisest
            men in the world for a Grandpa. I’ll share with you, what
            he told me as a young man. He said, “Happiness is not a
            goal, it’s a by product.” I’ve kept those words taped to the corner of my bathroom mirror, for almost 40 years.

          • GreginPottsville

            And all this time I thought you were a 18-20 year old know nothing. You are actually like a 50 plus know nothing. Makes it even more sad.

          • charleo1

            Well, keep posting Tiger! Maybe you can teach the world
            something!

          • bikejedi

            Hey ..That’s a good philosophy

          • paperpushermj

            How about mandating all Republicans where an armband with a big R on it?

          • bikejedi

            Seeing as women have fared the worse under Obama income equality and Jobs ..I think you owe them an apology . And the right has nothing to apologize for . We are trying to save your kids from the crippling generational theft and debt that his Socialism is going to saddle them with …I wonder how you people will explain all of that to your grand kids ???? I’ll bet you will still be blaming Bush ..hahah

          • GreginPottsville

            EXACTLY!

          • Mark Forsyth

            Provide something something better than empty comments,maybe?

          • Dominick Vila

            No, unless the guys that decided to make it as easy as possible for thieves to get guns are in power.
            The most important roles of government are to protect our national security and preserve or improve the welfare of the people it represents.
            Social Security provides adequate, albeit insufficient, income to senior citizens to help them live with a modicum of dignity when they retire. Typically after many years of contributing to the contract.
            MEDICARE provides healthcare to senior citizens at affordable prices. Beneficiaries contribute to the program throughout their professional years, and continue to pay fees after we retire.
            MEDICAID helps senior citizens with the cost of nursing homes and hospices when they can longer fend for themselves. It also helps people who for a variety of reasons cannot find a job or have such a low income that they cannot pay for the medical care and other services they need to survive.
            ACA is designed to help the uninsured, make preventive medicine accessible to ALL Americans, lower insurance premiums, reduce the cost of medical care in the USA, and eliminate insurance clauses that have affected millions of Americans during the past several decades.
            NASA allowed the USA to put a man on the Moon, it helped us learn more about the Universe and our own planet, and it generated incentives that lead to technological and process improvements.
            Our traffic control system is second to none.
            The Center for Disease Control has managed to prevent the spread of diseases in the USA in spite of continuous budget cuts.
            This is a small sample of what our Federal Government, and government in general can and had done to improve quality of life in the USA and helped us become the economic and military powerhouse we are today. If you can think of a more effective and efficient system, let’s hear it.

          • paperpushermj

            I agree with the first part but not so much the second part. Where in the Constitution do you get the responsibility of Government is to improve the welfare of the people it represents?

            ._________________________________________.

            “The most important roles of government are to protect our national security and preserve or improve the welfare of the people it represents”.

          • Dominick Vila

            The “general welfare” of the people clause is mentioned twice in the U.S. Constitution. First, in the preamble and again in Article 1, Section 8.

          • paperpushermj

            The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes,

            Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

            ._____________________________________.

            My reading of that section is the Constitution is telling Congress what its responsibilities and powers are. Congress is to pay money for Debt, Defense and General Welfare.

            What prompted my response to your post was this ” Or Improve the welfare ” Those 4 words are not found in the Constitution.
            The Founding Father where very specific about the Power gifted to Congress and in Section Eight where not shy grating the power to Regulate.

            “and preserve or improve the welfare of the people it represents”.

          • Justin Napolitano

            Well, I have a list right now: Car insurance; Homeowners insurance;
            Liability and worker compensation, if you have a business; and Health insurance if you attend a university in Florida. Also if you have a trade you must be licensed, by the state, and insured and in many cases must purchase a surety bond. Also in Florida you must file an annual report and complete 14 hours of continuing education every two years.
            Should we do away with those requirements?

          • paperpushermj

            and who dictates which insurance Co. will sell the Insurance and what is in those plans?
            Sounds more Fascist then Socialist.

          • edwardw69

            Ah, what?

          • Sand_Cat

            Can you even define either one?
            But since Obamacare is pretty much Romneycare, a Heritage Foundation plan, maybe you’re right about its sounding Fascist. If you don’t like it, go yell at Romney and the Heritage Foundation. Most of us wanted a better plan, but this one looks better than the other Republican plan (well summarized as “don’t get sick, and if you do, die quickly,” “financed” by tax cuts for billionaires and tax “rebates” for corporations which already pay none).
            When are you Republicans going to get it? Never, I guess.

          • paperpushermj

            You’re laying Obamacare at Mit Rommey’s door is pure propaganda . Other then both being healthcare programs that require citizens to have Insurance where is there a similarity.

            Yes I know the difference. Fascism is a step child of Socialism just with some different bells and whistles. Suggest you read F.A. Hayek.

            .”When are you Republicans going to get it? Never, I guess”.

            Answer; Just about the time you acquire Humility.

          • Sand_Cat

            Yes, your humility is impressive. And of course I can say anything is “pure propaganda” without knowing the first thing about it. How does it differ?

          • GreginPottsville

            Humility? You should try it sometime.

          • Sand_Cat

            We can both try it together.

          • paperpushermj

            Then point out the similarities between Romney Care and obamacare to prove your point that “obamacare is pretty much Romneycare”. If you can’t ,then what you said is pretty much regurgitated spin from the 2012 election. Propaganda

          • Mark Forsyth

            Fascism is a step child of Socialism? Really? What pile of crap did you scrape that off.Socialism,a type of which is a fully functioning Democracy has nothing to do with the totalitarian methods of fascism.The present day gop/t baggers are closer to fascists then anything that has existed since my Dad fought in the Battle of the Bulge.

          • paperpushermj

            Sorry your Wrong ! My comment was directed toward the Economic not Political underpinning of Fascism. You’re also wrong in your efforts to place space between Fascism and its mother Socialism.

          • Mark Forsyth

            I’m not wrong!!! I’ve made a lifelong study of Fascism which started with my fathers teaching me about them after his WW2 experiences.You are like so many other trolls on this page who fail to recognize the differences existing among socialism,communism and fascism.If you had a solid grasp of history,the differences would be obvious to you regardless of the underpinnings.What stupidity you prove to say that socialism is the mother of fascism.You might as well say that ducks are the mothers of cows. Now if you had said that greedy corporatism riding the coattails of failing capitalism is the mother of fascism,then you would have been on to something.However you are pissing into the wind.

          • paperpushermj

            An expert you say? Then you’ll recognize Mussolini’s quote?
            Mussolini on occasion acknowledged that Fascism was perceived as a movement of the Right” but he never failed to make it clear that his inspiration and spiritual home was the Socialist left.
            “You hate me today because you Love me Still” he told Italian Socialist.
            “Whatever happens, you won’t lose me”Twelve years of my life in the party ought to be sufficient guarantee of my Socialist Faith.Socialism is in my Blood”.

            “You think you can turn me out, but you will find i shall come back again. I am and shall remain a Socialist and my Convictions will never change! They are bred into my very Bones”

          • paperpushermj

            Mark … What’s the matter cat have your Tongue!!

          • Justin Napolitano

            It was all doublespeak. Hitler was an expert and even took the name National Socialist Party; NAZI. It had nothing to do with Socialism and everything to do with taking over businesses and supporting them in order to support a war effort. Hitler was a master at saying one thing and doing something else.

          • paperpushermj

            Still waiting for a response

          • paperpushermj

            Explain how people wanting smaller less intrusive Government found in the T party are labeled with wanting the very opposite … Totalitarianism.
            There is no their There with this, but it does do, is satisfy your need to throw Pejoratives as a substitute for thought

          • Mark Forsyth

            Geez! Why don’t you make it easy? I have no need of pejoratives.but if you insist— Look who and what the t-baggers support.Show me one of them that does not favor those politicians that promoted the fascist piece of crap called Citizens United.If any one needs to think, it is you.That is of course assuming you support the concept of Democracy.You do understand that there are different types of fascism that all boil down to the same thing don’t you? Or that there is no one size fits all definition of socialism? Hmmm….

          • paperpushermj

            I’m trying to give you the benefit of doubt here, but first you say no problem in explaining( Which you Didn’t ) how a group of citizens wanting Smaller Less Intrusive Government want the very Antithesis of that… Totalitarianism. Then you launch into using a Pejorative when you used t- baggers which you said you didn’t need, followed by a typical Screed found on MSNBC.

            ” Geez! Why don’t you make it easy? I have no need of pejoratives.but if you insist— Look who and what the t-baggers support”.

          • Mark Forsyth

            I won’t be baited into delineating things for you.Why should I go to the trouble.I’m quite familiar with troll methods.You address nothing and are a waste of time.

          • paperpushermj

            Yeh don’t you just hate it when your mind gets boggled, trying to explain the unexplainable.

          • Mark Forsyth

            Whatever helps you sleep at night!

          • paperpushermj

            Sounds like you have exhausted you’re supply of talking points on this issue. Have a nice day

          • Mark Forsyth

            Not at all.I’m simply not interested in trying to inform the willfully ignorant or having a battle of wits with someone who has no ammunition.Have a nice day.

          • GreginPottsville

            You really think the comment section of a left wing website is anything more than a waste of time?

          • Mark Forsyth

            Your presence here is proof that it is more and your presence here is proof that you are not.

          • paperpushermj

            Is fun seeing how vapid their arguments are. Most never answer any challenges to their belief system.

          • bikejedi

            The Tea Party supports Smaller Govt , Lower Taxes , Lower Spending Less Debt , Less Intrusion , and the Constitution . Is see nothing wrong with any of that and yet the left vilifies them . And it seems you are ok with the Public Unions donating what is essentially our Tax Dollars in an incestuous way to the very people that set their pay and bennies yet you find it unfair for a private Company to donate their OWN money to candidates and causes they support . Do you know that Corp donations went to Obama at a 2 to 1 clip ? Do You know that while Corporations will pick and chose from both sides and have a history of that , the Govt Unions don’t have that kind of record ? And yet you think Citizen United is wrong ….Gee that doesn’t sound very fair

          • Mark Forsyth

            I don’t know how you can claim that the T-party supports smaller government when so many of them support legislation that denies a woman the right to make her own health decisions or those programs that are designed to be of benefit to the public.

            Do you understand the concept of corporate fascism? That is what Citizens United exposes us to.Instead of government of,for, and by the people we could easily become government that is strictly of,by,and for the corporation.How would you like it if your vote never counted for anything,that is provided that you still had a right to vote.Maybe you already feel that your vote does not count or perhaps you don’t vote at all.

            Most of the people spouting off about how they support the Constitution have never even read the document.I have three copies of it in my house.I receive a new one every year to cover any amendments that have been made.

            You don’t qualify your statement about two to one corporate donations going to Obama so I will ignore that as possible opinion.Are you aware that corporate officials have been trying to turn our government into a fascist regime since the 1930’s.or that their efforts to do so are consistently supported by republican politicians.

            Presently corporations are not legally required to disclose the source of their political contributions.How would you like it if your candidate were defeated by money that came through a corp. but originated with a group whose primary purpose is the destruction of America? Wouldn’t you rather know that your candidate won or lost by a fair share of the popular vote,or would you prefer to have yourself and other Americans disenfranchised by anonymous individuals hiding behind closed corporate doors who don’t give a rats ass about the kind of government that you or I want.

            I think that you should study up on fascism and its implications before you come on-line in support of the piece of trash called Citizens United.

          • bikejedi

            Even though this has nothing to do with the ACA let me try to address that . 1st all of that is fear mongering and doesn’t reflect the reality of Political Donations . The best and most current data and numbers were crunched by zerohedge.com and their findings were as follows

            Yeah, look at all that special interest money going to Republicans. Ten of the top fifteen political donors in the past 24 years are unions, and their average donation percent to Democrats is 82.2%. But yeah, corporations are not people and their donations should be capped. Unions, however, are people and they should not be limited.

          • Mark Forsyth

            If you want corporations to be on the same level as unions then let them change their structure and start representing people instead of their special interests.We know who the unions are.We know who the members are.We know where the money is coming from and how much.Didn’t you say it is 82.2%. Unions,unlike corporations such as Appalachian Mountaintop Destroyer Massey Energy,do not force their members to attend rallies and campaigns and make large donations to candidates they oppose at the threat of losing their jobs.

            A growing number of state legislatures have already signed on in support of an amendment to repeal C.U. That alone would raise questions and generate investigation into its soundness as law.
            If you were as familiar with history as others are,you just might realize,providing that you are not among the willfully ignorant,that opposition to C.U. is no simple matter of posturing and fear mongering.The threats are real and we have been warned countless times that the greatest threat is internal and is represented by the special interests that seek to wrest the power of government from the people.

          • Mark Forsyth

            Let me know how you feel about it and tell me that it is all fear mongering when an anonymous special interest cause a simple stroke of the pen to be made that inhibits or destroys your ability to vote.Yes I am one of those who puts people first before corporate profits.Without government in the hands of the people,you have totalitarian tyranny.

          • paperpushermj

            Mark do you really think the Government in Washington is in the hands of the people?
            Whats behind the Whole T-Party Movement is millions of Citizens working for that very thing. We think Government has grown so big and separated itself for the People. If your goal is to keep citizens in the loop then join us at the next rally. I think you will be surprised how much you will find in common.

          • Mark Forsyth

            So,are you telling me that yourself and the party oppose the undue influence upon our government by the likes of ALEC and the Koch Bros.,the intrusion of legislation by republican politicians that prevents women from making their own health decisions,or removes the right of collective bargaining from teachers and public servants? How about the nefarious methods of entities like Monsanto.Bayer,Dow and others.I could go on about the long list of objectionables but those are just a few things you would need to oppose in order to be In League with me.And mind you, that is neither an arrogant nor egotistical statement.
            I don’t go looking,nor do I see evil everywhere I look,but I have not lived six plus decades and failed to know the difference between shit and shinola or to know that few to none issues are black and white. I seldom if ever give carte blanche to anyone.

          • Mark Forsyth

            In reply to your question I would say that the people still wield some power in government but that I am not content that the power should reside only in the vote.Politicians of every persuasion should live in fear of the peoples wrath.

          • paperpushermj

            No Mark I’m telling You Social Causes fall outside the purview of the T-Party interest. We are concerned citizens who focus on Government and good Governance. We see Crony Capitalism drawn to Washington because thats where the power is. The more power that accumulates in one place the more people will try to access it. Why do you think we call for smaller Government?

          • paperpushermj

            I’ll make a deal with you Mark, you condemn Soros for his financial support of Progressive causes and I’ll condemn the Koch Brothers.

            Of course I don’t believe for one second you would do that because you would see Soros motives as unselfish Philanthropy not based on greed or selfishness.

            You and others like you have claimed the morel high ground by thinking only your side is motivated by what’s in the common good and those why oppose you, can only be motivated by personal gain born from selfishness.
            You have painted yourself into a rhetorical corner.

          • bikejedi

            Well one thing is for certain . With the Unions we don’t even have to wonder what and who their special interests are . With Companies that compete with one another those special interests will probably not always be the same .

          • Sand_Cat

            The government may be by and for the Corporate, but it most certainly is not OF the corporate.

          • Mark Forsyth

            And let’s make sure that it never is.

          • bikejedi

            Yeah someone explain that to me too

          • Justin Napolitano

            The T party wants a smaller government as long as it doesn’t effect anything in their lives. The T party just wants every one but themselves to sacrifice. Further, the T party takes the short view in that the results of their policies would adversely effect those things that allow an economy and a society to advance. I truly believe they have a lot in common with the Taliban in that they want to go back to some mythical society that never existed thinking somehow we can forget about the common good. It is as if they want a system where every person is on their own. Social Darwinism would be the best way to describe their politics.

          • Sand_Cat

            Of course, humility is a Republican trait, right? One of your best features. While we’re talking about personal and political traits, I’ll say that honesty seems to be a liberal “fault,” at least from the Republican view: certainly very few of you seem to suffer from it, and then only sporadically.

            But to your point, you keep saying ACA is so different from the Heritage plan and Romney’s implementation of it. So what, exactly, is different, aside that it was signed into law by a Democrat with the wrong skin color? Propaganda is a tool Republicans wield extremely well: are you sure you aren’t the one being taken in?

          • charleo1

            You are aware, all health insurance not provided by the
            government, is underwritten by one of 5 major cos.?
            Different co. names, give the appearance of competition.
            Did you know, health insurance cos. are the only business
            other than major league baseball, exempt from anti- trust
            laws? So, unlike airlines, oil cos. bus lines, and banks.
            Insurance cos. may collude to do everything collectively.
            And over the last 20 years, they have ruled the roost.
            They set compensation prices for doctors, hospitals, labs.
            Before ACA, they decided everything. Who they would cover
            What they would cover. How much they would cover.
            And whether they legally had to cover a person at all.
            If a mistake was made at application. Even if their agent
            made it. They were off the hook. Standard practices.
            But you’re pretty sure, anything that changes any part of
            that, sounds, “more Fascist, than Socialist?” Okay.

          • paperpushermj

            So now all those icky things you mentioned about Insurance co. will now be made by Government. Just a basic primer on the economics side of Fascism. Private ownership was left in place but how to run the business was directed out of Rome through laws and guidelines, Which sounds similar to what the ACA is doing: Hence the comparison to Fascism

          • charleo1

            Do you think NFL Football is Fascist? Not the game. The
            business. If the business of pro football didn’t have rules,
            what do you think would have already happened? Business
            has to have rules. All governments in every Country in the world tells their businesses what they may do, and what they cannot. Capitalism can be a good system. But it needs a hugh degree of regulation. Of course they don’t don’t like it. They don’t like taxes either. But we can’t have a first rate Country without them. Bear with me one more second, and I’ll give you an example of what I’m talking about.. We all know drug cos. make a lot of money on products that are widely prescribed. And, we also know there are rare diseases, rare cancers, mostly in children that these drug cos. have a patent on. This particular kind of chemo doctors know often helps. Drug cos. charge pretty much what they want. And, $100,000 per year is not uncommon. The drug manufactures explain, they don’t sell much, and it’s expensive to make, so it is what it is. Free market Capitalism makes no allowances for children. But the government does. It mandates these cos. make enough, so a child doesn’t die unnecessarily. Even as they claim, they make little profit
            on the production. They’ve went along. India, another democracy, told their drug cos. to make it or they would.
            But, not long ago a group got he idea to, “invest,” some
            money by buying up all of the supply of one of these chemo
            drugs. And, when doctors started calling their usual distributors, they found their orders had not come in. Long
            story short, the investment group that bought all of this medicine, of which the hospitals had on hand less than a
            week’s supply. $5000 dollars per dose. That’s what they
            wanted. These people that had bought 100% of the supply.
            The insurance cos. refused to pay. Parents were scared to
            death. That my friend, happened. It is 100% free market, unfettered, Capitalism. I’d be interested in your solution,
            It’s a complicated world.

          • Justin Napolitano

            The best description of Facism is: Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. that sure sounds like the Republican/tea party to me.

          • Justin Napolitano

            Wrong again. Any insurance company that adheres to the standards set forth in the ACA can post their rates online and sell their insurance. If a company refuses to offer insurance that is mandated they can just sell their stuff like they do today.

          • paperpushermj

            edward why did you inject Socialism into the conversation? It seems you wanted to change the subject. Besides what difference does it make whether someone calls it socialism or chopped liver to our argument that the ACA is a train wreck. So far we have outlined why we know it fiscally can’t work with out touching on the subject of how this law will effect Doctors and how they will be forced to adapt to how they conduct health care delivery

          • Justin Napolitano

            It is not a train wreck except in the minds of narrow minded, I have mine screw everyone that doesn’t.
            50 million Americans will now be able to have health insurance and care. How is that a trail wreck?
            80 percent of the bankruptcies in this country are related to health care expenses that can not be paid. Millions are just one illness away from financial disaster.
            I am deeply sorry that you are such a non-caring person. I’ll bet you go to a church every week to show what a religious and caring person you are while at the same time you advocate for doing nothing for those that have less.

          • paperpushermj

            The train wreck quote comes from a ranking Democrat who helped write the ACA.
            The rest of you post doesn’t warrant a response.

          • paperpushermj

            FYI the “Train Wreck” opinion of Obamacare is from Max Baucus a senior ranking Democrat that wrote the ACA bill.

          • Dominick Vila

            I have been asking that question for months, and I am still waiting for an answer. I suspect they use terms like socialism as an insult or as a way to scare people who see evil in anything they don’t understand, not because they believe ACA is a socialist program which, obviously, it is not, at least not based on the interpretation that most people have of socialism.

          • paperpushermj

            How is it Socialism you ask after saying it is Mandated to buy a goods or service? Well you answered your own question when you admitted it is MANDATED.

            mandate |ˈmanˌdāt| noun1 an official order or commission to do something:

          • edwardw69

            Good heavens, do you even know the definition of socialism? It has nothing to do with mandates. It has to do with ownership. The government (the people) does not own the private insurance companies.

        • paperpushermj

          I understand and except that Reality.

      • Dominick Vila

        I understand that and, as you said, time will tell. However, all the feedback that is coming from the insurance industry suggests that insurance premiums will drop.
        What is unquestionable is the fact that those facets of ACA that have already been implemented have made a tremendous difference for millions of Americans. They range from the elimination of the pre-existing condition clause, to insurance caps, to wellness care for women among other societal and medical improvements.
        Unfortunately, corporate greed and politics are likely to interfere with progress, the delay in the implementation of the so-called mandate is an example of that. Like all other social programs, ACA is far from perfect, and improvements and adjustments will have to be made to make it run as effectively and efficiently as Social Security, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is a step in the right direction.
        The previous healthcare system was grossly inadequate, not only because of cost considerations, but because it is an exclusionary and uncaring system that rewards those who can afford to pay high insurance premiums, or have the luxury of enjoying company-provided healthcare insurance, while millions of American depend on trips to Emergency Rooms when they have a serious problem, and where preventive medicine is not part of the program.
        I think it is amusing to hear people refer to ACA as a socialized program, and ignore the ER freebies put in place by Reagan, which are paid for with Federal government subsidies and with high premiums by those who can afford to pay for the care they get.

        • paperpushermj

          ” However, all the feedback that is coming from the insurance industry suggests that insurance premiums will drop”

          ._______________________________________.

          The only feedback I see coming from the insurance Co. is Raising Rates. Maybe you need to focus on what is instead of what you want it to be?

          • Dominick Vila

            Insurance premiums have been going up for decades. For self-employed people, those premiums are unaffordable. That is one of the main justifications for ACA. My comment, based on what insurance companies are saying if everything goes as planned and ACA is fully implemented in 2014, is that premiums will go down for the first time in decades as a result of a higher customer base and the creation of exchanged. Needless to say, whether or not that actually happens remains to be seen.

          • paperpushermj

            Then you admit Insurance Rates are going up uncovering one of the faults claims that under the ACA they will go down. If you dig just a little further you will uncover another faults-hood about the cost of the ACA, which was sold to the American people at around 900 Billion over 10 years. Well where now approaching 2 Trillion.

          • Dominick Vila

            I guess my ability to communicate effectively and clearly has taken a turn for the worse. I admit that insurance premiums have been going up since I got my first job in the 1950s, and they are still going up. The effects of the Affordable Care Act on this specific issue will not be felt until that legislation is fully implemented in 2014.

          • paperpushermj

            No Truer words ever spoken.

            “The effects of the Affordable Care Act on this specific issue (Cost) will not be felt until that legislation is fully implemented in 2014”.

          • Independent1

            Not True!! ACA has already reduce premiums. Studies have shown that premiums over the past 3 years have increased at the slowest rate in 15 years (since ACA was enacted). Estimates of industry analyst indicate that premiums would be 25-45% higher today if ACA had not been enacted. What Republicans seem to fail to recognize is that the insurance industry would be really upset if they repealed Obamacare – their effort to do that is anti business friendly – Insurance companies are chomping at the bit for the individual mandate to take effect which will bring them millions of new customers. The GOP’s effort to repeal ACA is just one more example of the stupid party acting stupid!!!!!!

          • paperpushermj

            Studies my Aunt Norma’s Back Side. Lets stick with whats Real and happening Now. Rates to those who buy their own Medical Insurance for themselves are going through the Roof, same for Business big and small that provide their workers with medical Insurance

          • Dominick Vila

            You are 100% correct insurance premiums have been going up at an out of control pace for years, and they still are. Thank you for confirming why the Affordable Care Act must be implemented in 2014.

          • bikejedi

            Dom …yes they were going up but nowhere near the rate they are now

          • paperpushermj

            Don’t thank me Dominick I don’t believe you premiss. But believe what you want for I never challenge ones belief because it’s not based on rational thought and defies any kind of Proof. Example: Ones belief in a God.

          • Dominick Vila

            I am an agnostic leaning atheist.

          • bikejedi

            paperpushermj
            I think we are starting to find out why real logjams exist in Govt . I don’t think the people we are talking to are willing to even consider looking at an alternative . That may be because they have been defending this bill from itinception that they are invested in it . Another reason might be because they think if an alternative is proposed it might affect how people view Obama . to that I say Obama didn’t write this bill anyway and lets face it . Not a single one of them has given logical reasons why they think Obamacare can fund itself

          • paperpushermj

            I fail to understand it myself? Although it might be nothing more then tribalism, you know my team can’t do anything wrong and the other team is, well You and I and can’t do anything right. Anything critiquing or disagreement is plasterd over because they see us with impure reasons as in Greed and selfishness behind any opposition We can never be seen as working for the greater good because they see us a consumed only with Greed and personal gain. They listen to their team leaders who say this is where we are going and hear’s why. To many just throw out comments they hear someplace in defending the team ,

          • bikejedi

            They also fail to see that the policies their guys follow have produced the likes of Detroit and Illinois . Maybe they don’t realize that…… if you live in Illinois you recognize everything Obama is doing is trying to do that Nationwide and it doesn’t work

          • paperpushermj

            California here and I understand

          • Dominick Vila

            You are, obviously, convinced ACA will cause medical costs to go up, I believe the opposite is true. What we are going to see and feel is a reduction in desperately needed premium reductions. The reason for that should be evident to everyone, the number of people insured will go up dramatically when, and if, the mandate to accept personal responsibility is ever implemented. A larger customer base will allow the insurance industry to lower premiums, the same way stores like WalMart rely on volume to reduce expenses and offer products at a lower cost. The creation of exchanges will allow self-employed and small business owners who currently pay exorbitant premiums to bargain for lower premiums.
            Personally, I would have preferred a single payer system – without the insurance companies middlemen who are milking the system and contribute nothing to the process – but in the absence of that alternative, ACA is the best option at the moment.

          • bikejedi

            Domincik most are convinced cost will go up . 1 they already are . 2 Name me one Govt program that has ever came in at cost . 3 The funding doesn’t work and the State pools are going to have to rely on State funds …In Cook County …our County Care Program is already overwhelmed …As I have logically pointed out the ACA is not the best option it is NO option because it wont have the funding . And before you get mad at me first try to convince your side . Pelosi’s district read it and wanted out . they got exemptions . The Private Unions who support the Dems and Obama read it and they want out . They even rightfully pointed out it would result in 29 hr work weeks and the death of the middle class . So Im not trying to pick a fight , what I did was spell out the reasons why this bill cant work . I then agreed a plan is needed , put forward a plan and asked what you people thought and if you have any alternatives .

          • paperpushermj

            Some good point D but I see some fuzzy thinkings on this point.

            “A larger customer base will allow the insurance industry to lower premiums, the same way stores like WallMart”

            You assume more customer will lower cost or as you said Premiums.. This not always the case, you see the price of a goods or Service depends on many factors. Basicly you add up all your cost, add in profit , that determines what the Price is.

            The Problem facing the Insurance Industry is they have lost control of what the product will be, as it is being dictated from Washington. Washington tells them to offer 3 plans and what is in each plan.

            I think it way to early in the game for you to assume just maybe there will be enough new people will be sending in their money each month to cover all the money going out. If not then Premiums will have to rise to bring in enough money to cover what’s going out. Make Sense?

          • Dominick Vila

            I don’t think there is a point discussing the dynamics of business, including the factors that contribute to a solid return on investment any further. You have made up your mind, and so have I.

            Regarding the impact of “millions” of people with pre-existing conditions destroying the insurance industry if they are allowed to get insurance coverage as a result of the ACA mandate, that does not make sense. People with pre-existing conditions gained access to healthcare insurance coverage almost 4 years ago, when President Obama signed ACA, and the insurance industry continues to post profits. The ones that will gain access to healthcare insurance coverage are those who for a variety of reasons, ranging from being unable to pay premiums to personal irresponsibility and a feeling of invincibility, do not have health insurance at the moment. That large segment of our population currently uses Emergency Rooms and get free care subsidized, in part, by Federal Government subsidies, and by those who have health insurance in the form of higher premiums.
            If ACA is implemented next year as planned it should, theoretically, result in lower insurance premiums and a more inclusive system that benefits everyone, instead of the system we still have which leaves 20 million Americans without preventive medical care, forces those with a sense of personal responsibility to pay high insurance premiums, and is a burden on those employers who provide healthcare coverage to their employees.
            I would love to continue this discussion AFTER ACA is fully implemented, when facts are available to confirm one way or the other who was right and whether or not the new program benefits our society.

          • bikejedi

            Didn’t they push it back until 2015 ?

          • bikejedi

            But they are delaying it until 2015 aren’t they ?

          • paperpushermj

            You mean the Employer mandate? If Yes then Yes they are delaying the enforcement aspect but what a employer needs to do to be incompetence still stands.

          • paperpushermj

            So everything in your plan depends on convincing Young people to buy Medical Insurance… Right? Good luck with that!
            Just what would you say to them that would convince them?
            Hey Ladies and Gentlemen I want you to spend $100-150 a month for Medical Insurance. Something you have shown you don’t want because chances are you won’t need it. Besides with the No existing Condition thing, you can buy the insurance when needed. Yeh great sales pitch that one would be. Would love to be there

          • Dominick Vila

            No, everything in “my” plan (thank you for the compliment) does not depend on convincing young people to get medical insurance. If nothing else because I am much more appreciative for facets of ACA, such as ending the pre-existing condition and insurance caps, than giving access to preventive medical care to people who think they are invincible. Moreover, the millions of Americans who do not have healthcare insurance and rely on Reagan’s socialized freebies at Emergency Rooms include more than just young people. The majority are people who cannot afford to pay $700 or more in monthly premiums.
            Needless to say, those who are healthy don’t see a need to pay insurance premiums, and that is not surprising. My only concern is what will those people do when they are afflicted by a serious illness a couple of years from now? Will they seek insurance coverage in blue states, or will they accept their fate in their beloved red states?

          • paperpushermj

            I too benefit from the no prior condition clause in ACA. I have two sons with medical conditions.With that said, that clause is the stone in Davids Sling to the Goliath ACA. I have no doubt that this option will have to be revisited by the Regulators for adjustments because it endangers the financial integrity of ACS that needs to have enough money coming in to cover costs.

            ACA needs young healthy people on the rolls paying for Older citizens who are not as healthy and in fact are huge users of medical care. Without the young this house of cards crumbles

          • Dominick Vila

            Senior citizens do need a lot more medical care than young citizens, but the cost of that is covered by MEDICARE and does not impact ACA. As an aside, I believe the need for increased screening and medical procedures, with special emphasis on technology and effective processes, should be a high priority if we are truly determined to reduce Medicare outlays.
            I agree with what you said, the only way ACA will work is if all the uninsured – including the young – apply and get insurance coverage. Federal government subsidies are not enough to cover expenses. The dichotomy of claim to be champions of personal responsibility, while fighting to preserve a system that encourages not sharing the burden of paying for healthcare insurance premiums and using ER freebies instead is baffling.

          • paperpushermj

            “I agree with what you said, the only way ACA will work is if all the uninsured – including the young – apply and get insurance coverage”
            .______________________________.

            So everything depends of getting people to do something they don’t want to do and in fact don’t have to do. What are the chances of that happening?

          • Dominick Vila

            The chances of uninsured Americans taking advantage of a program that helps them get access to preventive medicine they currently don’t have at an affordable price are excellent. The only thing that is needed is an ability to think logically and make rational decisions. Depriving yourself of the care you need to live a healthy and long life is only an option for those who either believe they are invincible or want to end their lives as expeditiously as possible. The other category are Republicans determined to continue getting Reagan’s socialist freebies at Emergency Rooms.

          • paperpushermj

            “The chances of uninsured Americans taking advantage of a program that helps them get access to preventive medicine they currently don’t have at an affordable price are excellent.”

            ________________________.
            Maybe maybe not ! it will depend on how many people want to stop to buy their Insurance policie on the way to the Hospital.

          • Dominick Vila

            To be very candid with you, I think it depends on whether or not the mandate is implemented and ER freebies are discontinued when ACA is fully implemented next year. Some of those who currently don’t have coverage because they know they can get free medical care at ERs will much rather spend their money on a new cell phone or a 3-day cruise to the Bahamas that accept personal responsibility for their well being and pay insurance premiums like most of us do.
            I hope the mandate stays in place, and I hope those who do want to have the health insurance needed to get the preventive medical care they need to live a healthy life step up to the plate and act like mature individuals instead of a bunch of parasites.

          • paperpushermj

            The money from the Feds will never be stopped for this reason.

            The ACA is not and I feel confident in saying It Never Will be self sustaining. The Insurance Co. will have one or to ways to make up their short comings. Raise Rates! or keep the door open from the Federal Treasury. This could lead to the biggest SUCKLING SOUND the World has ever heard.

          • Dominick Vila

            I agree with the first observation. Taxpayers monies will be needed to keep, not only ACA, but every program that benefits our society in place. Ultimately, it is our choice to decide whether or not we want to pay for the things we need and benefit from. There are no free rides, and Republicans, of all people, should be sickened by the existence of the current socialized Emergency Room freebies, which are much closer to the spirit of Marx and Engle’s philosophical social ideas than the Affordable Care Act is.
            On the issue of insurance company premiums going up, I believe the opposite is true. The insurance industry had a major role in drafting ACA, and they made sure provisions were put in place to protect themselves. The mandate is one of them. They are counting on a larger pool of customer to offset increased disbursements, and if everything goes as planned and the GOP does not undermine the viability of this desperately needed program, they will continue to profit for many years to come. That, by the way, is the reason so many Democrats are disillusioned with ACA. Many of us believe the solution to our escalating medical costs is to eliminate the middle man and the profit element in the current program. The insurance industry does not contribute to improvements in the medical industry. In fact, they do not add anything positive to the system. We would not be in the mess we are in, from a healthcare system perspective, if it wasn’t for the fact that we are supporting the for-profit insurance industry, getting nothing in return for our contributions.

          • paperpushermj

            Interesting point.

            . “Moreover, the millions of Americans who do not have healthcare insurance and rely on Reagan’s socialized freebies at Emergency Rooms include more than just young people”.

            You do realize the ACA moves the financial burden from the Government ( Taxes ) coughing up the extra money for those Emergency Room Visits, from them, to YOU, through higher Premiums you’ll pay for the Insurance you are now forced to purchase. You do know that Right?

          • bikejedi

            The rates are sky rocketing . Can you name one Govt program that has held costs down when other peoples money is being used ? It is only logical common sense then to believe that these costs will sky rocket also

          • Justin Napolitano

            Medicare. I have Medicare and love it. Medical providers also love it even thought the reimbursement rate is lower than some insurance plans. The combined medicare and supplemental insurance policies I have provide the best insurance I have had in 25 years. And I am paying less than I did before I went on Medicare.

          • bikejedi

            Maybe you misunderstood what I was getting at . That would be the fact no Govt program ever comes in at the cost projections they have for it . I also think Medicare is a good program but funding for it is becoming problematic . It is especially becoming problematic because Obamacare raided it for funds and will have to do it again and again . Also a lot of Dr.s are no longer accepting patients or are retiring because of the slow reimbursement of those programs

          • Justin Napolitano

            There was not one dime taken from medicare funds. The providers of Medicare services, including hospitals are charging less for their service and that is where the reduction are coming from. Additionally, since less money is being spent the Medicare fund is now solvent for many more years. I fully expect that once Obamacare is fully operational there will be even lower rates for health care recipients and lower costs for everyone.

          • bikejedi
        • GreginPottsville

          What in the world are you talking about?

      • bikejedi

        This is what I’ve been trying to convey . You definitely cant count on Govt cost projections especially on something this big …The cost projections have already been revised upward 3 times by the CBO and it hasn’t even started yet

    • bikejedi

      I think Obama is more in a hurry to do that then the GOP and he wants to do it before it is implemented . Didn’t he just delay it until after the midterms because he knew it would cost them every seat that was up for election ?

      • Dominick Vila

        Please help me out. Are you saying that President Obama must be in a hurry to implement ACA, because he delayed the mandate to get insurance coverage?

        • Sand_Cat

          He’s saying anything he can think of to avoid facing facts.

        • bikejedi

          Dom thank you for the civility …

          I guess what Im trying to convey is that Obama himself knows that it is a train wreck and that is why he is delaying implementation . Dominick ..You seen intelligent …Ask yourself in the current configuration can Obamcare succeed ??? I mean the working young ( who think they are invincible ) will pay the Tax Penalty opt out and not have coverage . That will shrink the pool of those covered not increase it …Next The Dems Conveniently wrote the bill to incentivize Corporations to STOP covering employees …Think about it ?…Current projections show that its going to cost between 8 to 20 k per employee to cover them and to opt out a Corporation would have to pay the IRS a Max of 3 K ….this is a no brainer . They will opt out to stay competitive in the market place ,
          and just to save money on the balance sheet .. Before anyone on the left gets apoplectic and blames that on Greedy Corporations remember it was the Dems that incentivized that …It isn’t greed it is common sense … So who is going to pay for this since Obama exempted Public Unions and those on entitlements ??? It wont have the funding to succeed and it will implode …If you grew up in Chicago you would recognize this ploy . They want it to fail and then will say …See we needed the single payer all along …That my friend on the left is where the right sees the Socialism …. because we know where this is going …It is plain to see that is what they have always wanted and when you factor in that this bill will never have the funding it needs then you can see their ulterior motives …We see this all the time in Illinois . We on the right see the ACA as an epic failure …It doesn’t need to be repealed it is doomed already … OK now before you go thinking that all of us on the right just want to see this fail because we hate Obama ….. Most on the right aren’t necessarily opposed to a Health plan ..In fact maybe you on the left have gotten us used to the idea …It is in the implementation that we disagree with this …They made the revenue function based on Tax Payers in the Private Sector and the Companies that employ them …..then they gave both , avenues to opt out …and then not have coverage .,.While both ( Companies and Producers ) would be forced to pay Tax Penalties , neither would be buying coverage …Common sense then says a net loss of people covered and paying into it . I am having an enlightening discussion with Edwardw69 on this very topic … You might be surprised to know many on the right aren’t opposed to a Healthcare bill …We just hate this one …Why not just make the revenue function of this bill based on a 1% Nationwide Sales Tax ? That” IS “a Fair and Balanced plan this one is not …That way everyone pays into it … even the poor on entitlements buy things …so they would pay …and of course those evil rich people would pay a lot more because they buy more . The 1% would be easily acclimated to and assimilated . Companies relieved of the burden of the complexities and costs of the ACA would start hiring immediately …One of the biggest complaints business has with Obama and the Dems is that they don’t know what the rules are and what the costs are going to be to do business .. Most are afraid they wont be able to stay in business with the costs of the ACA …Take that away and I think you will agree that Companies will start to hire and that is good for the whole Country . And No I Don’t care if Obama takes all of the credit as we both know he would …You see all the perceptions people on the left have about the right are mostly untrue …We don’t hate Obama because he is black we hate the disruptive policies . I think a Nationwide sales tax is the way to go . I think Companies would start to hire having a rule book and a level playing field . I think we would have more Tax Payers and less people on Entitlements …this would increase the collected tax revenues and maybe we could work on the Deficit and the coming collapse of Social Security …
          Now let me ask you what you think …wouldn’t this be a much better plan ? …wouldn’t it be fairer to everyone ? …I mean the current plan just taxes people in the private sector while the Public Unions are exempted and the entitlement people get other peoples wealth and production redistributed to them in the form of a new entitlement program…Do you see why people on the right abhor it now ??? Can you see why we see it as a Socialist ploy …from those by their ability to those by their need ????
          One other thing ..about the delay in implementation ..if you are fair you will acknowledge that is because Obama knows the fecal matter is going to hit the oscillating device when it is implemented . Companies will revolt and the bill will be exposed . He doesn’t want that effecting the mid terms ( and he knows it would ) . One other thing ..You on the left are always touting that Obama and the Dems are fighting for the middle class and the little guy …While the GOP only cares about greedy corporations …Well this blows that argument out of the water don’t you agree ? …Obama exempted all those greedy corporations while shafting the middle class who still have to pay for it . Why aren’t you people all railing against Obama and the Dems for that ??? Why aren’t those on the left railing against Obama favoring the rich and greedy Corporations ….???Where are all those Occupiers ??? Where’s Liz Warren ??? I’m just wondering and no I’m not trying to be snarky ..What I guess Im getting at is why aren’t we hearing any npise from the left on all of that ??? Thank you for the civility and whatever thoughts you might have .

          • Allan Richardson

            It won’t be a train wreck unless certain groups of people pull up the tracks or sabotage some switches.

          • bikejedi

            No one needs to sabotage it . It will not work for funding reasons . If you can refute the reasons I put forth earlier or you think the funding will work I am willing to listen to your theory . I think my reasons for saying it wont work make perfect logical sense . I didn’t even factor in that if you look at the history of these types of bills the cost always are always higher then they tell you …already the Dems and the CBO in particular have risen those cost projections three times and it hasn’t even been implemented…So please tell me why you think this can work and your reasons ..I listed what I thought and why and I think it and I think my reasons are logical …Let me know what you think

          • paperpushermj

            What you said makes sense to me unfortunately the 3 that gave you thumbs down failed to take up on your challenge save one who says I will benefit therefore it will work.

          • paperpushermj

            Ah “Hope Springs Eternal” ! For that’s all your above post is “Hope” the ACA isn’t a train Wreck.

            Unfortunately your Hope does not trump those familiar with the plan, saying it is going to be a train wreck.

            Evidence of the Correctness of that perception: The Year long extension on Business to comply, plus all the Unions and other friends of the Admin who received relief from compliance.

          • bikejedi

            Thank You . It seems the people who are supporting the ACA are basing that on only Hope in spite of all the evidence and logic that says it can’t work . None of them have laid out why they think the funding will work . None of them will help come up with alternatives as I have tried to do …

          • Michael Christy
          • Allan Richardson

            You sound like one of the people who WANTS to pull the rails up. I repeat, if ACA becomes a “train wreck” it will be ONLY because of sabotage by those who WANT it to be so. Tell me, do you think it is a morally positive thing to want:

            (1) babies who used up their LIFETIME insurance getting out of the NICU to be FOREVER UNABLE to insure their own health?

            (2) persons who have insurance at their jobs being intimidated out of leaving it, even for something better, yet afraid of LOSING the job, not just for the money, but because they have developed a condition that would not be covered by a new policy?

            (3) people without insurance being treated a the ER, at the expense of all of us, but ONLY to the point of being referred to their “own” physician for followup, knowing they have no way to get the followup care, and will die without it?

            (4) people without insurance, or with inadequate insurance, unable to get the rehabilitative care, prosthetics, glasses, hearing aids. cleft palate surgery that would make it POSSIBLE to get a higher paying job and pay more taxes?

            Would you have left the wounded man lying on the road, like the religious leaders (protecting their ritual purity), or would you have helped him, like the outcast, heretical, halfbreed Samaritan?

            In other words, do you have any compassion in your heart, or are you a cold, calculating machine?

          • Dominick Vila

            Obamacare can succeed and can be of tremendous help to our society as a whole, as well as to our business community. I have six grandchildren, all but two are working. One is still in elementary school, another is handicapped and paralyzed from the waist down. Three of them do not have healthcare coverage, not because they don’t want it, but because they cannot afford the premiums. All three have been waiting for the implementation of ACA to get the coverage they need to get the preventive care that – and in one case, their spouses need.
            There may be young – and not so young – people that will reject ACA in favor of getting free medical care at Emergency Rooms, but most will not do that. The wife of one of my grandsons have serious problems that prevent her from getting pregnant and that compromise her health. The present ER services for the uninsured don’t cover her problems. She and her husband work in the hospitality industry and the owner of the country club where she works offers healthcare coverage to their employees. Unfortunately, the premium is $700 a month for each of them. The salaries they earn are not enough to pay such high premiums and pay for the basic necessities of a married couple. There are millions of Americans in similar circumstances. They are the ones that will be denied what should be one of the most elementary rights of a human being, the right to a healthy and productive life.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Obamacare Cuts New York Insurance Premiums In Half Before Government Subsidies

          • bikejedi

            Well the business community disagrees with you and if you look at the things the ACA incentivizes it wont be good for business . They will opt out . They will hire only part time employees and if they are close to fifty employees they will cut heads to get under that number so they wont have to incur the rising costs of Insurance , And as I rightly pointed out you cant blame a business for trying to be efficient and cost competitive with their competitors . You have to look at the way the law was written to incentivize the Companies to do these things and then put the blame on those who wrote it that way . Once again this isn’t my opinion it is what businesses are already doing and what they report they would do when the law went into effect . The WSJ and Inv Bus Daily have both surveyed Companies and this is what they say they will do . It is also the biggest reason Obama delayed it because he knows this will happen .
            You mention the $700 per month cost for your family members insurance plan. Ok right now Insurance premiums are sky rocketing and the reasons are obvious so how does this CURRENT plan fix that . This is why I’m here . Not to argue with you but to show that there are much better alternatives . Alternatives that two lay people like you and I can think up together they we both know are much more viable alternatives then this bill
            I saw Coumo’s account and like the California one which was proven to be accounting by Crayola so will that one be exposed . Either by a real accounting or in time when the bill is implemented . That is if it goes in in this incarnation . I am willing to bet you on this if you like a friendly wager …What im saying is Coumo is either just trying to shill for the law just like Cali did or he is using funny math or he is just plain wrong …Knowing that nothing the Govt does ever comes in at cost projections and seeing the complexity of this bill ….would you like to take me up on that wager ???

          • Dominick Vila

            Bear in mind that opposing legislation designed to benefit ALL Americans without offering a viable alternative is not a solution, it constitutes obstructionism and represents an uncaring attitude towards those who need help.
            The fact that the GOP wants to repeal ACA is not a secret, it is, in fact, the centerpiece of Republican obstructionism and their almost exclusive focus. What has been missing from the debate is what does the GOP want to replace ACA with? Are they saying that the most exclusive and expensive medical system in the world is preferable to one that includes all members of our society and reduces cost?
            In all fairness, what is becoming apparent to me is that a deal has been cut behind closed doors, and that both sides have agreed to the implementation of some facets of ACA while rejecting the most essential to influence lower insurance premiums: the mandate to get coverage from for-profit insurance companies.

          • bikejedi

            The GOP has offered alternatives and they were rebuffed by the Dems . That isn’t my opinion it is what happened when the law was being written . I myself have offered a better alternative . It isn’t my idea but it is one I support .
            You said something about insuring everyone and reducing costs . Well the ACA was NEVER designed to cover all Americans and it cant . It was designed to insure approx. 17 million Americans who currently don’t have healthcare . Or more accurately Insurance . You do realize that if you have Insurance and not enough Dr.s you don’t have healthcare right ? The AMA report that we already have a Dr shortage and a lot of them are retiring because as they reported at the AMA meeting …They have had such bad history getting paid by the Govt that they would rather retire .
            Moving right along you said bring costs down and already the Insurance costs are sky rocketing so there is nothing affordable about this plan . the insurance costs will sky rocket more as the companies have to raise premiums on everyone to cover those with pre existing conditions . This is not only a logical premise but proven out with the sky rocketing premiums that we are currently seeing . And don’t blame the insurance Companies for that . It would be illogical for them to niot have to rase premiums when they have to cover the expense of people with pre existing conditions ..That isn’t greed it is accounting and billing appropriately so they can stay in business

          • Dominick Vila

            The only alternative I heard from Republicans on this issue is keep the most expensive and exclusive medical system in the world in place, and Ryan’s plan to dismantle MEDICARE. Neither are viable nor logical options.

          • bikejedi

            Well it appears this isn’t going too well . No one wants to answer the question of whether or not they think Obamacare can fund itself with the more cost efficient opt outs they built into the law . As I said I don’t think it can fund itself in its current incarnation and I pointed out the logical reasons for my position . No one wants to answer that or comment on my proposal or make one of their own that would be more workable …
            Now you don’t have to try to convince me of the merits of a Health Bill . It seems that you are all just trying to sell me and others on this bill . That isn’t going to happen and its not because I am opposed to a bill because Im not . You cant convince me this is a workable bill ..Hell you cant convince your own team it is . A majority of Liberals hate THIS bill . The ones in Pelosi’s district wanted exemptions and got them . Many large companies that support Obama also got exemptions . The Public Unions only support it because they get Tax Payer funded health care and don’t have to pay for the entitlement people because they have insurance . Now the private Unions don’t like it either and have given Obama an open letter explaining that it will be the end of the 40 hr work week . The fact you cant even convince your side should tell you something . Now Im not here to argue ideology . I gave my reasons Obamacare wont work and the Private Unions agree with my assumptions . I gave a proposal …Do any of you have thoughts ????
            Well I don’t want to turn this into a debate on Ideology however , Obamacare already guts Medicare of over 700 Billion or is it Million I cant remember which and Ryan rightfully pointed that out . Ryan’s plan does not do that and the only people that bought that were the people who believed the misinformation that the Obama Campaign put out during the Campaign . Ryan’s Plan was only one proposal by the way .

          • Dominick Vila

            Of Course ACA will not fund itself and cover expenses by waving a magic wand. Neither do the insurance industry, not Reagan’s ER freebies. There is nothing free in life, not even death. The reason for ACA is not because the American people deserve a free healthcare program, but because the current program is broken, because it is expensive, and because millions of Americans are uninsured as a result of not being able to afford the high premiums charged by the insurance companies.
            We tried a system run by insurance companies and for profit service providers. It didn’t work inasmuch as it is unaffordable and exclusionary. Why not try something different?
            I don’t expect ACA to be 100% perfect, in fact, I anticipate adjustments to make it more efficient and cost effective as time goes by and we learn more about its strengths and weaknesses. That’s the way most major programs, and even corporate policies work.
            As for using the out of control medical costs as an example for why ACA is not working, may I remind you that the cost containment part of the program is scheduled to be deployed next year? You are 100% correct, we cannot afford the cost of the old healthcare system, that’s one of the most important justifications for the upcoming implementation of ACA.

          • bikejedi

            Ok we are making a little progress . I think we both agree this bill cant fund itself . I also contend the way it funds itself is unfair and just wealth redistribution . Some wealth redistribution I could live with but this whole bill is funded that way in its current form . I think the idea of a consumer tax would be much fairer . I don’t like the idea of just trying to tweak this bill as we go along I would rather see it replaced with something a whole lot less complex . One of the biggest drivers of cost in the current system is the mal practice law suits and your team didn’t want to address tort reform

          • Dominick Vila

            The idea that a social program designed to benefit the general populace should magically fund itself is ridiculous. Every program, in fact every enterprise regardless of whether it is private or public sector needs funding. The question is whether or not we, the people that benefit from the services provided by a program run by the government, is worthy of funding, and whether or not there are more cost effective and efficient ways to get those benefits. There are no free rides, our options is to pay for what we need or do without. That is, unless we prefer to borrow and bankrupt ourselves and our country because we would rather spend our money on frivolous things than on the things that keep us safe and healthy.
            Repealing or dismantling social programs is not the way to go. If there are flaws in a program, correct those flaws, find better ways of doing things, but don’t just say I don’t like it, I am getting rid of it, without offering an alternative.
            The old system was, by far, the most expensive and most exclusionary in the world. Its limitations and draconian clauses resulted in millions of Americans not getting the preventive medical care we all need to live a healthy life. Its cost contributed to our business community not being able to compete effectively against other industrialized nations, and from a moral perspective it represented the worst a civilized society and people who purportedly embrace Christian values should offer.
            Frivolous malpractice suits should be eliminated, but that is not the main cause for our escalating medical costs. Greed by all segments of the healthcare industry, fraud, ineffective use of technology and existing concepts, redundant testing, a reliance on prescription medications to correct problems, such as obesity, that could be treated by changing our habits, all contribute to the out of control costs we have seen for decades. We simply cannot afford it, and that is one of the most fundamental goals of the Affordable Care Act.

          • bikejedi

            You say that “The idea that a social program designed to benefit the general populace should magically fund itself is ridiculous.” to that I say its going to take a whole lot of hocus pocus to do that with the ACA . It probably will; need to rob medicare of even more funds and require a tax on the middle class to fund it . Coupled with the current funding principles of this bill which is just wealth redistribution from the middle class to others then you see the problem . What this will do is cause economy strangling strain in the middle class and make them poor . The 29 hr work week will be the norm and they will be taxed almost all of their smaller pay checks to pay for it . None of that is fair balanced or workable and none of the left even want to consider a plan that can be work and is fair

          • Dominick Vila

            Most Western European countries have healthcare and pension plans that make ACA look like a pauper’s dream, and they enjoy a higher standard of living than we do. BTW, with the possible exception of Greece, the fiscal and economic problems afflicting a few European countries have little to do with social program, and a lot to do with banks investing in derivatives and taking risks they should not have taken, people borrowing to buy expensive condos and cars during the economic boom they enjoyed from the 1980s to 2007, currency pressures, and economies fueled almost entirely on agriculture, tourism and construction. Economic recovery is being impacted by the fact that two of those economic pillars collapsed. It is also important to remember that most of the money borrowed from the EU has been used to bailed out banks rather than pay for social programs.
            Financial re-distribution of wealth implies the transfer of money or property from one segment of the population to another. An example involves what happened in Iraq when we spent billions of dollars rebuilding what we destroyed, and awarded sole source contracts to companies that seldom completed their contractual obligations. In that case, taxpayer’s money was redistributed from the public sector to the private sector and, to this day, I don’t hear anybody complaining about it even though it involved an incredible amount of money and the recipients were those who already own 2/3 of our national wealth. The money being distributed to the Affordable Care Act comes, in part, from tax revenue paid by the public to provide services to the public. In other words, we are paying for something we need, as it should be.

          • bikejedi

            . I think we both agree a plan is needed but for some reason the people on the left are so invested in defending this train wreck that they wont look at better and fairer alternatives …You then want to blame everything on the GOP the Tea Party and Conservatives and call them obstructionist rather then work or even discuss a better plan . My presence here is to try to show that a lot of the right is not opposed to a plan but that this one sucks . It sucks so bad all of the people on the left want exemptions or have already been exempted . It seems the left just wants the right to pay for it and I know that is an oversimplification but name one group on the right that has gotten an exemption ….Im sure 100% of the people on the right who see what this bill is would want an exemption but cant get one …and then who would pay for this train wreck anyway ….but if course we cant get that . We aren’t Liberals in Pelosi’s district who voted for that agenda and then wanted out .And of course about the only people in the know who support this current plan don’t have to pay for it ( Public Unions , those Liberals and their companies that have gotten exemptions ) and of course the entitlement people who not only get something for free in this wealth redistribution scheme but also don’t have to pay in . My point is it isn’t about being compassionate or not compassionate for the needy its just that this plan is totally not fair . One of the biggest problems the right has with it is that it basically just revenues the private sector while exempting all the Liberals who voted for it but dint like it . It also asks nothing of the Public Unions who supported it and enjoy Tax Payer funded plans …all the while those Public employees make double what their Private Sector brethren make ..None of that is fair or balanced or workable and that is why even the left hates this current incarnation. It is designed to fail on purpose to pave the way for a single payer . I know that is what you want anyway …So lets go Single payer and appease the left . BUT lets do it in a way that is fair and where everyone contributes to a plan that everyone benefits from

          • bikejedi

            On the Europe stuff you brought up .Well we can argue Europe all day long and none of that is the USA or has anything to do with the fact the ACA cant work and should be replaced with something that does . By the way my contention would be that NO country has the Standard of living we enjoy in the USA or everyone would be flocking there instead of here . Also how many of those half Socialist Nations over there are in financial trouble ? I think all of them are… with the exemptions of Great Brittan and Germany …the others are circling the drain ..Portugal Spain Italy France Greece all are screwed as we speak …Maybe we , through the IMF will give them even more of our Tax Dollars

          • Dominick Vila

            Most European countries are doing very well. Germany is, by far, the European economic power house, the UK not so much. By the way, you may want to add Ireland to the list of countries that experienced a severe economic downturn in 2007-08. All Scandinavian countries are doing great, and so are The Netherlands, Belgium (albeit for cultural tensions), Switzerland and other countries. This may surprise you, but lots of immigrants from just about every corner of the world are moving to Europe instead of the USA. We are no longer the only destination for people seeking opportunities. The fact that the GOP has been obstructing progress is not a secret or a hypothesis. People like Mitch McConnell acknowledged, very proudly, that they have been doing that and the reasons why. Trying to negotiate alternative to ACA or any other plan with people that acknowledge their goal was to ensure President Obama was a one-term President, and now that he was re-elected by a comfortable majority, remain engaged in obstructionism to damage our President’s accomplishments and undermine Hillary Clinton’s chances in 2016, is a non-starter. Attempting to do so would be like trying to buy life insurance from a guillotine operator.
            ACA is not a train wreck, it is a viable alternative to the old system. The facets of ACA that have already been implemented (ending the pre-existing condition clause, eliminating insurance caps, women wellness, and a few other medical improvements) are all working very well. In fact, they are working so well that the GOP has no choice but to demonize the entire program because they fear their position on this issue may become an albatross in future elections. What the GOP is afraid of is not that ACA my prove to be too expensive, but that its benefits may be so great that they will end up with egg on their faces.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Obamacare Cuts New York Insurance Premiums In Half Before Government Subsidies

          • bikejedi

            The ACA is a train wreck . Before you try to convince the people on the right of that try at least convincing the people on the left . How many Senators did they bribe to get it passed ? Ok how about all the Liberals who wanted out from jump . They must’ve been warned by the very people who were writing it to ask for exemptions and that could only be for one reason . 29% if the exemptions are in Pelosi’s own district …they must’ve got not only a heads up but then were granted exemptions . What about all those Dem loving and campaign donating Unions who don’t like it want out and have warned it will be the end of the middle class …And when that happens from the ACA and the opt out for part time employees you people will blame that on Bush . You keep trying to sell it out of misguided loyalty though . Do that instead of talking about alternatives at a grass roots level and trying to effect change through opinion

          • Dominick Vila

            Most European countries are doing very well. Germany is, by far, the European economic power house, the UK not so much. By the way, you may want to add Ireland to the list of countries that experienced a severe economic downturn in 2007-08. All Scandinavian countries are doing great, and so are The Netherlands, Belgium (albeit for cultural tensions), Switzerland and other countries. This may surprise you, but lots of immigrants from just about every corner of the world are moving to Europe instead of the USA. We are no longer the only destination for people seeking opportunities.
            The fact that the GOP has been obstructing progress is not a secret or a hypothesis. People like Mitch McConnell acknowledged, very proudly, that they have been doing that and the reasons why. Trying to negotiate alternative to ACA or any other plan with people that acknowledge their goal was to ensure President Obama was a one-term President, and now that he was re-elected by a comfortable majority, remain engaged in obstructionism to damage our President’s accomplishments and undermine Hillary Clinton’s chances in 2016, is a non-starter. Attempting to do so would be like trying to buy life insurance from a guillotine operator.

            ACA is not a train wreck, it is a viable alternative to the old system. The facets of ACA that have already been implemented (ending the pre-existing condition clause, eliminating insurance caps, women wellness, and a few other medical improvements) are all working very well. In fact, they are working so well that the GOP has no choice but to demonize the entire program because they fear their position on this issue may become an albatross in future elections. What the GOP is afraid of is not that ACA my prove to be too expensive, but that its benefits may be so great that they will end up with egg on their faces.
            In any case, instead of speculating, why don’t we resume this discussion next year, after the system is fully implemented and we can debate its benefits or detriments based on fact rather than what the administration or clowns like Limbaugh have to say one way or the other?

          • bikejedi

            There you go again just railing against those evil people in the GOP…If you look at the discussions we are having right here on this issue and then you extrapolate that and say this is probably happening the same way in DC …What you have is me trying to reach a consensus with you people on the left and all Im being met with is its the ACA or the highway ..and then you would call me an obstructionist because this law is so bad no one ….Even the people on the left like it . So Mitch McConnell happens to make one stupid statement and because of that the people oin the left wont let it go …You do realize it is ALWAYS the stated goal of the opposition party to try to make the other side ONE term no matter what office …You do realize that right ?? So why keep bringing that up ? And the US is still the number one destination . People are changing that pattern only since Obama so stop blaming the GOP and start blaming the guy at the top.
            It seems you don’t want to discuss any other option then this bad one and you wont address the stuff I brought up probably because you know it makes too much sense .If your leaders are acting the same way in DC it is they that are being obstructionists and not the GOP . And then they are shifting the blame and calling the GOP Obstructionists . I think I will just withdraw from this as all you want to do is go to the Lib Talking Points and say everything is the GOPs fault . All the while neglecting the fact that if Obama were a good leader ( say like Bill Clinton ) he might be able to find a way to work with the other side It seems that Obama has taught you on the left one thing and that is to do what he does …Just blame the other guy . Seeing as you just want to blame the GOP and not talk about the issues and how to make a workable plan what makes you think your leadership isn’t doing the same thing . When they were writing the Bill they didn’t want any GOP input into it at all and now you want to say they are obstructionist . That is excuse making and blame shifting 101 and it is counterproductive and obstructionist in nature .

          • Dominick Vila

            A selective interpretation of what is being said seldom produces good results. If you read the responses I have given you, you will find that I acknowledged that ACA is far from perfect and that changes will have to be made as we learn more about its strengths and weaknesses, and what can be done better.
            The party is that is in minority often oppose the policy proposals put forth by the majority, but not to the extent of what has taken place during the last 4.5 years, and never acknowledged by a political leader as the centerpiece for their political agenda. Yes, that was a stupid statement for a senior politician to make.
            Both parties worked towards compromise when Reagan and Clinton was in office. In fact, Democrats rolled over and let W get away with murder during his first six years in office, something I am not too proud of.

          • bikejedi

            Ok I acknowledge that you say the ACA is far from perfect …You know what ? I acknowledge nothing this big would please everyone so maybe that is an admission from me that any bill would have problems . To your point that changes will be made… I will contend that it will happen too slow to fund it and it will be broke before it can be fixed
            And both party’s worked together under those Presidents because they had executive skill sets that Obama’s life experience didn’t come with . They knew bipartisanship was the key to getting agreement in DC as well as forming better consensus among the citizens . Obama is the one who if you ask me is saying its my way or the highway and that was fine when he had bullet proof majorities on both sides ..In that case you can be arrogant and throw your weight around but when the power shifts back the other way you have pissed off the other side . You don’t get cooperation from the other side by pissing them off . If Obama had come with an executive skill set he would have had the foresight not to do that . Clinton didn’t …One other thing at least you and I are talking civilly even if we don’t agree …Maybe they need us to show them how its done

          • Dominick Vila

            It is the very gracious of you to acknowledge that something you oppose is imperfect because it is too big.
            President Obama’s skills and, most importantly, his character and commitment are the reason the international chaos that prevailed before he was elected is down to a trickle, it is the reason the economy that was on the verge of collapse, according to what his predecessor said, has turned around and it is well on its path to recovery, it is the reason social programs that benefit the general populace have not been dismantled, and it is the reason the civil servant population has been reduced.
            Unfortunately, the progress we have made on all fronts has done little to dissuade those who only see evil in the people or concepts they hate, and among those who don’t hesitate to reject and insult the Office of the Presidency when the man in charge is someone who represents everything they hate.
            If anything, President Obama’s greatest flaw is his determination to extend an olive branch and seek middle ground with those who remain determined to derail his agenda and remove him from office or destroy his legacy at all cost.

          • bikejedi

            Dom by your comments it seems you aren’t interested in discussing a viable alternative that would work instead of the ACA . It seems all you want to do is sell Obama and say the GOP sucks .If your leaders act the same way then you should never have to ask who are the real obstructionist in DC to an honest dialogue . Having said that I feel I should give the rebuttal to what you just posted . OK …you said ” his character and commitment are the reason the international chaos that prevailed before he was elected is down to a trickle,” is that why Egypt and Libya are still in chaos and under the control of the Muslim Brotherhood . Is that why Syria is going to be in the control of Al Qaeda when all is said and done and why through Obama’s Words Israel is totally isolated without any support to stop Irans Nuke program ? And what of that Nuke program . Obama talks they ignore him and continue to Nuke up . I believe Obama supports a Muslim country with a Nuke to ” balance ” Israel . Either that or he is too scared to do air strikes against the Iran Nuke sites . Israel may have to do that alone and Im sure Netanyahu has asked for US help and been denied or he already would’ve gone in . For reference see Iraq and the airstrike Israel did years ago to stop their program . Now Iran is putting state of the art AA up and Israel sure could use some of our tech …Maybe some white noise generating AWACS and they could definitely use a MOP ( massive ordinance penetrator ) If they had American help just with that equipment they would’ve done something about it already . On that you can count on . Oh and give me ONE example of the President putting an olive branch out to the other side . !st even if he did he would be considered disingenuous as all he has done in office is bash and blame everyone but himself like a petulant child who has no executive skill set . That isn’t my opinion it is fact . Anyone can tell you that you wont get cooperation of people you constantly bash . And further proof of that is that no other President would have been nor was as short sided .

          • Dominick Vila

            Sorry, but I don’t have the time to repeat the same things over and over again. I believe ACA is an excellent alternative over the existing system, both from the perspective of inclusiveness, from the standpoint of making preventive medical care to people who currently don’t have access to it, and because it is likely to result in lower premiums for all. ACA is an alternative to a failed system. Claiming that ACA supporters are unwilling to consider other alternatives, without you offering one, is a bit of a stretch. ACA is the alternative, it is incumbent on those who believe that it is neither efficient nor cost effective to offer a better option.
            For the record, I would have preferred a Single Payer System that gets rid of insurance companies in its entirety. That my alternative, but since that did not happen because of the outrage shown by Republicans, I accept ACA with all its flaws as a preferable approach to what we had before, hoping adjustments will take place to make it an outstanding alternative to a failed system.

          • bikejedi

            Ok Dom I guess I get you now . You don’t want an alternative that works you want Obamacare with some adjustments …The only way you can adjust that thing to work would be a complete do over . I as well as most of the GOP would like to talk about that but it doesn’t seem any one on the left or your leaders want to . It seems all you want to do is what Obama does . Complain blame other and make excuses …Such as the GOP is obstructionists …It seems the biggest lessons the left has learned from Obama is how to blame others and make excuses . Have a nice day

          • Dominick Vila

            You said, in an earlier post, that people like me refuse to offer or discuss alternative to ACA. ACA is the alternative to the existing medical system. If you don’t like it, it is incumbent on people like you to offer an alternative.
            Unfortunately, like most Republicans, your solution involves repeal, keeping a system that doesn’t work and is too expensive, dismantling MEDICARE, privatizing Social Security, getting rid of MEDICAID, and other such approaches that, coincidentally, are all designed to hurt the middle class while the socio-economic problems that are hurting our economy and way of life, a focus on helping those who already own most of our wealth and control all facets of life in the USA, are protected at all cost.

          • bikejedi

            Dom you are smart enough to know that it is Obamacare that dismantles Medicare . How much have they raided it for ? Oh and in their initial cost analysis to the CBO they counted that Medicare raiding twice to make it look affordable . You know this don’t you ? If so why do you spread that lying talking point designed to scare other liberals ? And the State plans will be the death of their Medicaid programs we have already been told that in Illinois .

          • Dominick Vila

            The little impact that Obamacare will have on MEDICARE, such as eliminating the doughnut hole, is all positive. The MEDICARE spending reduction and the resultant savings involved steps to eliminate fraud, and elimination of inefficiencies or duplication. All was focused on service providers and the introduction of badly needed efficiencies. Those savings strengthened the program and allowed us to undermine the plan put forth by Rep Ryan to dismantle MEDICARE. It showed that a few adjustments can make a social program more efficient without resorting to slash and burn approaches.

          • bikejedi

            Well I see you buy into Liberal rhetoric which is wrong on Ryan’s plan . Look he proved it doesn’t touch Medicare while Obamacare has already robbed from Medicare ..Somehow if you repeat a lie over and over to Liberals they just buy it .

          • Dominick Vila

            Rep. Ryan’s plan, which he acknowledged publicly, proposed the dismantling of MEDICARE and its replacement with a voucher program. You, on the other hand, accept the unfounded Limbaesque claims. The savings realized by eliminating MEDICARE waste and fraud are consistent with all the other efforts designed to reduce spending. Interestingly, the party that claims to be interested in reducing spending is the party that demonizes unnecessary or fraudulent spending when they were not the ones that found ways to spending without impacting services.

          • bikejedi

            Yes and also what is still going on in Afghanistan and Egypt and Libya and Syria ..Dom it seems your only intent here is to shift the blame spin and make this a GOP sucks discussion . I too can do that all day and much more effectively as your side has mountains of hypocrisy that makes that easy . However that has very little to do with the wealth redistribution of the ACA and why that makes it a problematic sell even to the left .

          • Dominick Vila

            I don’t know what the transformational events that are going on in parts of the Islamic world have to do with the topic of discussion, other than serving as a distraction to avoid discussing facts that don’t support your opinion of GOP policies, but since you brought it up I would say that the events in Egypt, Syria and Libya are the result of people rejecting totalitarianism and medieval concepts in favor of freedom and democracy. Those countries have endured vicious dictatorships for many decades, and are tired not only of abuses and lack of freedom to choose their own destiny, but of despots whose only contribution is to enrich themselves at the expense of the populace.
            The problems in Afghanistan, who are subsiding, started with the Soviet invasion, our decision to help the Mujahedeen, including Osama bin Laden, our own invasion of Afghanistan, and the determination of both super powers to impose its will and values on people who prefer to embrace concepts and a way of life that belongs in the history books. The situation in Afghanistan is likely to change, likely not for the better from our Western perspective, as soon as we leave that country.
            What is important to remember is that we don’t have the right to tell others how to live their lives.

          • bikejedi

            I don’t know what 20 new Country’s in Africa with a new Al Qaeda Presence has to do with it either but you brought up how Obama has settled down foreign affairs in one of your posts .

          • Dominick Vila

            Your answer does not surprise me. You tried to divert attention from the topic at hand by bringing up a subject that has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing, and then blame the person that answered your comment by saying that he started the diversion. Typical Republican tactic. You made matters worse when you decided to introduce hyperbole and an illogical opinion, by insinuating that Al Qaeda is involved in the popular uprisings that have been taking place throughout North Africa, the Middle East and Persian Gulf. While there is evidence that some Al Qaeda rebel groups in Syria may be affiliated to Al Qaeda, there is no evidence of AQ involvement in countries like Algeria or Egypt. In fact, what is going on in some of those countries is precisely what AQ opposes. That is, a rapprochement with the West, fighting for freedom, and embracing democratic freedoms. Yes, progress has been and will continue to be difficult, it always is and judging by our own history it is far from being unprecedented.

          • bikejedi

            Dom I asked you before to stay on topic and pointed out in several previous posts that all you seemed to want to do is Campaign for Obama while blasting the GOP . I pointed out that that was not going to help this discussion flow . Here are you words . ” President Obama’s skills and, most importantly, his character and commitment are the reason the international chaos that prevailed before he was elected is down to a trickle ” . I used no Hyperbole only the facts . None of these countries are trending towards Democracy as Islam and Democracy don’t and haven’t ever mixed well . While Mubarak may not have been an ideal ruler in our eyes he wasn’t going to make the reason unstable nor attack Israel . Obama didn’t support him and his friends in the Muslim Brotherhood overthrew Mubarak . That didn’t last long and now not only have we seen the second overthrow in Egypt but the people of Egypt are blaming Obama for the train wreck that is the Muslim Brotherhood . Maybe you didn’t get that memo because you only watch Liberal News . If you go to the BBC you will see that during the protests against Morsi the people were carrying signs reading that they hate Obama but love the U S ..and others said Obama stay out of Egypt ..well you get the drift .

          • Dominick Vila

            Stay on topic? You introduced the topic of 20 Islamic countries and you are asking me to stay on topic because I responded to your assertion?

            The move towards democracy in most of the countries involved in what the call the Spring revolution involves a rapprochement with West, which is already evident in countries like Algeria. The removal of President Morsi from power in response to demands from young Egyptian clamoring for more freedom was a step in the right direction considering Morsi’s involvement and the leadership role he had/has in the Muslim Brotherhood. It will be a very long time because they become a Western style democracy, but they are moving in the right direction.

            Again, I don’t know why you broached this subject which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

          • bikejedi

            Uh I just quoted your earlier post up there to prove my point so I guess you did that and don’t realize it . And those young Egyptians who ousted Morsi were carrying signs blasting Obama’s involvement in Egypt

          • Dominick Vila

            People worldwide criticize our tendency to get involved in their internal affairs. Sometimes they hold signs, others call for the immediate arrest of a former U.S. President on charges of crimes against humanity. That’s the price we must pay for being the “leaders of the free world”. Are you proposing a complete withdrawal and isolationism?
            A better measure of President Obama’s image worldwide may be the accolades and honors he received from the Israeli President and Prime Minister a few months ago. The again, maybe you missed it since FOX, the only major media outlet that did not cover that event, was busy pretending the Israelis consider President Obama their enemy. Brainwashing is only effective in the minds of the uninformed.

          • bikejedi

            Man that shows how gullable the left is . Obama totally disrespected Netanyahu and Israel the first time they met when he let Netanyahu wait for over 45 minutes . BIBI hates Obama and regards him as spineless . He is just blowing smoke to be PC and because he wants a MOP ( Massive Ordinance Penetrator a bunker busting technology only the U S has ) so he can go into IRAN . Obama wants to just wait and talk to IRAN and beg them not to NUKE up . What you can derive from that and Obama’s oft stated goal of standing with Islam is that Obama is either too scared to do anything about IRAN or that he secretly wants an Islamic country with a Nuke to counter balance Israel . Iran with a Nuke is dangerous to the whole world but for some reason Obama doesn’t care . BIBI wants desperately to go into Iran but the Iranian situation is different then when they did their airstrike on the Iraqi Nuclear Program . Netanyahu probably believes he could use at least our support with some tech . Exactly how fast do you think Iran’s Nuclear program would be over if BIBI and Reagan were working that problem ? BIBI needs Wild Weasel Jamming planes HARM and AMRAM White Noise generators , Hell a couple of our Raptors would be nice and of course a MOP or two . Obama wont even commit to that preferring to talk . If you knew anything about Muslim culture you would know they view capitulation as weakness . they are loving Obama and his bowing to Islam

          • Dominick Vila

            Considering the fact that no U.S. administration since the hostage crisis has attempted to confront Iran militarily, with the exception of Carter’s failed rescue attempt, should we assume that every U.S. President since that era has been too afraid to challenge the Ayatollahs? By the way, Iran’s nuclear program was well on its way when former President Bush was in office and the GOP controlled both chambers of Congress, how come your party did nothing about it? By the way, the only thing W got from your hero, Bibi Netanyahu, was ridicule in public when W stated after the Annapolis talks that an agreement on the Israeli-Palestinian impasse was imminent. You are correct in alluding to the fact that President Obama prefers dialogue and compromise to warfare, and for that we should all be thankful. You are free to believe that all the accolades, honors, receptions and smiles from Peres and Netanyahu when they presented Israel’s highest honor to President Obama were fake overtures. I don’t think they were. BTW, what makes you think Israel doesn’t already have bunker busting weapons?
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Obamacare Cuts New York Insurance Premiums In Half Before Government Subsidies

          • bikejedi

            Wrong . 1st BIBI and W have great respect for one another and remain good friends . That might be because W never stated that Israel should go back to 1967 borders as a starting point when negotiating with Hamas terrorists . 2nd Iran didn’t dare try this when Reagan was President and we all know what would of happened if they did . He would have taken that stuff out in a month . It would have gone like this . Don’t do that or we will have to take that stuff out …got it …Very little talk involved . Bush 1 would have done the same and W would have done something as well if he were not a lame duck when that started . Your argument holds no water . Obama prefers talk to war only when that benefits him personally . An example was our involvement in the Egypt and Libya messes and now in Syria ..Plus his reliance on drone strikes which makes the Muslim world view us as cowards who take out their family members from the safety of a bunker . Israel foes have bunker busters that cannot penetrate anywhere near what the MOP can .

          • Dominick Vila

            I prefer to draw conclusions about the motives and actions of others based on fact, rather than assumptions. The only thing that is evident to me regarding the relationship between Netanyahu and W is that when the latter, naively, announced that an agreement to solve the Israeli-Palestinian impasse was imminent he was told, in public, by his good friend Benjamin Netanyahu that he was full of it…admittedly in more polite terms. I also prefer to assess the relationship between the Israeli leaders and President Obama based on the statements they made when they gave him Israel’s highest honor. Yes, I realize those facts are hard to accept by those who form opinions based on what Rush and FOX tells them, but they are/were for everyone to see.
            The only thing Reagan and his team did to punish Iran for what they did with us, is circumvent the fact that we had broken diplomatic and trade relations with them and engaged in illegal transactions with the Ayatollahs (the Iran-Contra affair). Oops, sorry, I forgot Lt. Colonels were in charge of foreign policy in those days.
            Our involvement in Egypt, Libya and Syria were/are minimal, as opposed to the Republican approach to problem solving, which got us involved in unnecessary and prolonged wars in a country that did nothing against us (Iraq), and which was one of our darlings in the Reagan era when he armed them and gave them the intelligence they needed to defeat Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.
            Israel’s enemies do not have bunker busters, they have rudimentary and highly unreliable rockets that more often than not miss their targets or blow up on their faces. They also don’t have the delivery systems needed for long range or intermediate attacks. The only thing I agree with in your statement above is that we have the capability to blow up the entire world, if we decided to do so, which is unlikely.

          • bikejedi

            Ok Let me simplify this to a level that a person on the left can understand …You know someone who gets their info from MSNBC and from Rachel Madcow ( at least FOX doesn’t lie to their viewers and purposely mislead them through the altering of video and audio tape that someone involved in a case in Fla is a racist ) …Do you think Obama and Netanyahu will ever have a friendship or personal relationship when he is out of office ? We know that he and both Bush’s as well as Billy all have excellent friendships to this day .
            As for your views on Military tech and tactics . Who cares what Israel’s enemies have . I thought we were talking about taking out Iran’s Nuke program .
            As for your assertions of what happened under Reagan well things certainly have changed haven’t they . I mean you are trying to compare two different eras separated by 30 years of Politics and change in those Countries

          • Dominick Vila

            I have never watched MSNBC, don’t even know how Rachel Madow looks like, don’t pay too much attention to the TV talking heads, and come to think of it don’t watch too much TV.
            If I am not mistaken, you are the one that brought up Israel’s foes.
            I have no idea what President Obama’s and PM Netanyahu’s personal relationship will be after they get out of office and, quite frankly, I could care less. My comment about FOX ignoring the accolades and honors given to President Obama a few months ago was meant to highlight the differences that exist between our media outlets. After years of repeating the diatribes that you are impressed with, that is, that Israelis despise President Obama and don’t want to have anything to do with him, it would be tantamount to corporate suicide to acknowledge and let their disciples know that our president was being honored by their purported nemesis.
            Yes indeed. The world has changed a lot during the past 3 or 4 decades, and it is likely to continue changing. My response to your comment about Reagan was designed to remind you of his duplicity, how far he went to achieve his goals, and his tendency to accuse others for his misdeeds. Those attributes, or lack thereof, are timeless.

          • bikejedi

            Fox did report on that .

          • Dominick Vila

            They reported on it after ever7 news outlet covered the event and it was impossible to hide, but they were the only major network that did not cover it live.

          • bikejedi

            What are you smoking ? Nobody covered it live . For someone who says they don’t watch TV news you sure do seem to think you know what they air . Fox covered it fairly and broke away to do a special report . So did MSNBC and CNN . None of the Networks covered it live .

          • Dominick Vila

            I have no idea what MSNBC covered, I watched it on CNN.
            When I watch TV it is usually HGTV and the History channel. The only U.S. media outlet I watch every now and then is CNN. I prefer the BBC and TVE, but as I said before, I don’t watch much TV and get most of my news via the Internet.

          • Dominick Vila

            I seldom watch TV, never watch MSNBC, and don’t even know how Rachel Madow looks like. You, on the other hand, sound like a FOX News disciple.
            I could care less what President Obama’s and PM Netanyahu’s is after they leave office. The only thing I am interested in is the relationship of our leaders with other world leaders while they are in office.
            FOX did not ignore the events that took place in Israel a few months ago when Shimon Peres and Benjamin Netanyahu expressed their gratitude and support, and gave President Obama’s Israel’s highest honor, because they tell the truth to their viewers, they did it because they would have looked like a bunch of liars had they broadcasted those events after telling their audience year after year about the terrible relationship President Obama has with Israel. BTW, President Obama is not the first U.S. President to suggest that Israel should go back to the 1947 borders, or that they should stop building settlements in Palestinian territories. This may be of interest to you, the segment of our society that delivered Florida to President Obama the last election were the Jews in South Florida. Jewish-Americans are the best educated and most pragmatic segment of our society and, not surprisingly, they were not impressed or dissuaded by FOX diatribes and allegations.
            Yes, the world has changed a lot the last 3 or 4 decades, but there are things that we must fight to preserve. One of those things is our integrity, and Reagan did not show any when he decided to negotiate with the Iranian Ayatollahs to achieve one of his goals, the spread of communism in Central America. He illustrated the latter when he informed the American people that a Nicaraguan invasion of the USA was imminent. I considered preparing for a deluge of Chiquita bananas, but since I prefer mangoes I just let it pass.

          • bikejedi

            Obama got a Nobel Peace prize too and hadn’t done anything to that point to deserve it . Now the head of the Nobel committee has publicly stated that Obama should give it back . Israel honored Obama to be PC . Obama didn’t even visit them for what was it 4 yrs ? It does matter whether or not you have real relationships with other world leaders but it doesn’t seem to matter to the left when they are defending the Obama . And Obama said they should start with the 1967 not 47 borders and that just isn’t feasible . The world has changed since the 60’s and so has Military Tech . Israel has been attacked on all sides for as long as anyone can remember . They won that territory through blood and it wasn’t blood that they asked to spill ….They have developed what was once wasteland into something worthwhile .,
            And for someone who claims not to watch TV you sure seem to know a lot about what they broadcast . You did get one thing right . FOX doesn’t lie to their viewers like Liberal media and if they did their viewers have enough brains to call Bullshit on them . The left and their media not so much . their media lies to them and then wont even issue a retraction or apology when they are caught in a lie . they rightly gamble that their viewers are so poorly informed they wont even hear about the lies or care . They have been found to be right on that gamble . Dom I will say that at least you and I can keep things civil even if we don’t agree on a lot .

          • Dominick Vila

            The only thing I agree with you on is the fact that Israel expanded its territory with blood and that they transformed what was originally a waste land into a fertile and prosperous country.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Obamacare Cuts New York Insurance Premiums In Half Before Government Subsidies

          • bikejedi

            I hope that you also agree that Israel did not Choose to get attacked repeatedly on all sides by multiple Islamic Countries all bent on their distruction , so those payments in blood were not THEIR choice .

          • Dominick Vila

            I remember the Six-Day war very well, what influenced that unfortunate event, its conclusion and aftermath.
            Again, I have no idea what ABC and/or NBC cover, I don’t watch those channels. If one of them altered a taped interview to give the impression that a juror said that GZ got away with murder, and the juror did not say that, they should be sued for libel. Based on what I hear about FOX it may be easier to enumerate which broadcasts reflect reality than the ones that don’t. If what I hear is true, their problem may be related to omission or picking what is convenient to support their agenda than overt lies. I prefer to form my opinions based on input from unbiased and credible sources, such as the BBC, rather than what the highly paid talking heads say to their audiences.

          • bikejedi

            I agree about BBC but find it weird that Liberals don’t demand real news from their own outlets here in America …Its a shame you feel you have to go across the pond for news . You could stop listening to Liberal propaganda and at least give FOX a try . While some of their commentary is biased their news is top notch . You know if I listened to only Conservative views I wouldn’t be on the Memo …Your side might want to try to be more open minded and at least see what the other side has

          • charleo1

            A flat tax is terrible for everyone but the rich. I think you
            made a little misassumption that throws your entire flat tax argument in the can. The rich do not spend more, in aggregate, than the poor. They sit on it. Our economy’s
            problem now, is there is too much money sitting around in
            rich people’s bank accounts now. It’s a different subject.
            But related. When did redistributing up the income strata
            become liberty inducing? And redistributing down become
            a sure pathway to Communism? More, and more fallacies.
            Fallacies, like, now that employers can opt out, and pay a small fine, they’ll all drop their employee’s insurance. Here
            we get two fallacies for the price of one. The first one is,
            they are required to provide insurance now. And two, they have been shedding their employee insurance plans for years. When they do, their employees go to the ER. And,
            almost none of those younger hires, that have no assets
            to protect, ever pay their bill. Others can lose their homes,
            and savings. Do you know when did the GOP dropped their
            spiel about personal responsibility? I liked it. Made sense.
            The next canard that’s really full of it. I mean, this ranks right
            up there with the story, if ObamaCare passes, bureaucratic bean counters, are going to be deciding if, Grandma is worth the investment at her age of a new hip? Or if a wheelchair
            makes more sense. It’s awful, isn’t it? And to think, LBJ talked Seniors out of the wonderful health plan the GOP had for them. Shameful! Ronald Reagan, tried to warn us. If Medicare is passed, that’s the end of freedom. And, just like somebody said here. If you give people the choice between freedom, and covering their child’s kidney operation…. See,
            The Gipper knew what a dangerous path we headed down
            when we foolishly provided healthcare to retirees.
            Exemptions! That right there alone proves Obama is shilling
            for the rich! The list is endless, right? Unions, Federal
            employees, and corporations. While piling more on the
            Middle Class! Let’s stop this train wreck now! Well, since
            the truth won’t take a second. Corporations are not exempt.
            See, that didn’t take long? Unions members are all have
            insurance at a great price, that meets the minimum standards
            set by the ACA. They get their insurance the old fashioned way. By collectively going in, and threatening to walk out in
            mass, if their boss drops their health insurance. Bunch
            of extorting Socialists! While Federal employees are all
            covered as well as your Congressman, in case you were
            concerned. Again, all benefits extorted by the Communist
            controlled Unions! Both of these groups may opt out of
            their union plans at anytime, and join the rest of the freedom lovers that includes the 50 million with no insurance. And
            on principal, reject the insurance plans, the worthless and
            corrupt union bosses have negotiated for them. And breathe
            the free market air of the private sector I wouldn’t hold my
            breath.

          • bikejedi

            First , my proposal wasn’t a Flat Tax . It was for a consuimer based Sales Tax . Second your assumption that the rich just sit on their money is based on investment strategies not consumption needs . While there are fewer rich people then the two other groups they still buy stuff . and when they do they don’t buy cheap stuff .. They fly 1st class . They stay at high end hotels . They go to high priced restaurants . They buy expensive cars jewelry etc etc …The point is that they will be paying their fair share and the amount of taxes they pay for being such a small part of the total population proves that .
            The other stuff you posted is just going to derail the discussion . While you might think these are the reasons for the economy my response would be that it sounds like a warmed over Occupier meeting and then we would just argue .
            My position is that the ACA wont work so why don’t we look for a better alternative . You on the left are always complaining about the right not wanting to get along and come up with something together and I am here saying ….Ok healthcare might not be a bad idea . This plan is a bad idea so why don’t we come up with something better …..together

          • bikejedi

            One other thing Public Union Employees are exempt and are covered by the U S Tax Payer …so they have great plans but not necessarily at good costs . Those costs are going to rise and we are going to get the bill . The other Unions in the Private Sector who originally supported it want the same exemptions Pelosi gave to people in her district . At the same time they have wriiten an open letter to Obama explaining that the exemption for companies to not have to cover part time employees will mean the end of the middle class as this law essentially incentivizes Companies to only hire part time employees just to get out of it

          • charleo1

            You’re point is basically, I think what I think. If it came down
            to providing medical care to the 100 million Americans living
            at, or below the poverty line. Or, continuing to fund the military.
            What do you believe would happen? The rich don’t buy cheap
            stuff. Neither does the military. Which one do you believe spends more? If you give a rich guy that deal. And, he doesn’t
            need to be all that wealthy, he’ll take it a second. And he
            hasn’t had a better deal on taxes, paid any less on his earnings
            and investments in 80 years, than he has for the last almost
            15 years. But yours beats it. So, if corporations don’t pay taxes.
            And the rich get your deal. And wages keep falling as they are
            now. Who’s going to pay for that military? And Homeland
            Security? Occupy had one point. When 400 of the richest people in the Country have more money, and wealth, than
            the bottom 150 million combined. ACA is not the only thing
            that’s not going to work out financially for the Country.

          • bikejedi

            Ok you seem to want to talk about anything but the ACA . My position is that I agree with the left and a plan is needed . And you are still trying to sell it to me . You don’t have to do that because the current plan stinks and it wont work . Before you get all mad at me …that isn’t my opinion it is the opinion of most of the left . Most of Pelosi’s district read it and didn’t like it . they were given exemptions . The Private Unions who supported it and Obama have read it and don’t like it . They too want exemptions and have rightfull pointed out that the current bill will kill the middle class . It will end the era of the 40 hr work week . Not my opinion it is theirs . So you argument is with your own side . Most of them think it sucks . Try convincing them not me . I am already of the mind a plan is needed but I KNOW this one sucks . The only people on the left that seem to like it are the people who are in Govt Public Unions who get Tax Payer funded plans and wont have to pay a dime for all those poor entitlement people you mention in your post …It seems no one in the private unions want to pay for them nor will they have to . And of course the other segment that likes the bill are the entitlement people and the Illegals . Most of the left thinks this bill sucks . My position is lets not argue about ideology and if you want to do that try convincing your own side first .
            My position as I stated is I agree with you that a plan is needed . I logically pointed out why the ACA cant fund itself and it is designed to implode . I asked if anyone can make the case that this thing can work from a funding stand point and if you agree it cant then why don’t we discuss alternatives that can work .
            All the other stuff you posted is ideological arguments that have nothing to do with this article or for two sides to have a legitimate discussion amongst ourselves about the ACA and alternatives to it .

          • charleo1

            Well, I appreciate your opinion. I really do. However, we
            simply do not agree on the fundamentals. I believe caring
            for the needs, the general well being of a country’s citizens
            is ultimately the government’s responsibility. Why? Because,
            if that is not happening, the country is headed for failure. If
            the wealth of corporations was proving to accomplish that.
            If the more success, and wealth the top 1% enjoyed, made
            possible the general improvement, and advancement of
            society, I would be for it. Or, if by the evidence, I could see,
            in the general economy, or job numbers, or any economic
            indicators pointed to even the empirical, preponderance of
            such policies bearing success. I would be inclined to give
            them more time. But they are not. And our overall problem
            of becoming ever less capable of affording medical care,
            is only one part of an expanding assortment of what I call, baseline, indispensables. Decent housing, education, lack
            of opportunity, and upward mobility. And that inability is
            now spreading up the economic ladder. I can reach no
            other conclusion, from my perspective, it is directly tied
            to sub-par, wages. And, certainly not by any cynical, and ridiculous, explanations offered through the corporate bullhorn, of a deterioration of the American work ethic.
            As some Right Wing politicians wax on to their well healed,
            constituents, how Social Security, and Government provided
            healthcare, have made the American workers, “soft.”
            (See Marco Rubio/Reagan Library.) You propose a different
            plan. A less expensive plan. A fairer plan. I say amen!
            I also say, I suffer under no illusion that the Right Wing
            politicos, would preside over third world conditions, and
            worse, before they would betray the corporate line. Or remove the for profit insurance cos., or any of the billions in build in profits, protected at all costs, and more reliant than ever on the taxes they rail about ad nauseam, as being too
            high. The reality is, they will not support ObamaCare. But,
            they will not support any solution, that changes the failing status quo. You agree with none of this, of course. You
            believe it seems, requiring employers to provide healthcare,
            will reduce jobs, and cause drastic changes in hiring policies.
            Because, you believe higher costs to employers for better
            benefits for employees, will hurt the economy. So then,
            explain please. As wages, and benefits have generally
            fallen, in a broad way, the economy is struggling, and has
            been struggling to generate enough demand to keep the
            workforce busy? On this principal we completely disagree.
            Well, let’s look at one of the fastest growing economies in
            the world. China. Over the past 10 years, their economic
            growth has been 10% year over year! Phenomenal, as
            the world economies grew at zero to 1%. What accounts
            for this? Wages must have drastically reduced, for your
            theories to be true. No? Okay. Then, explain please, how
            base salaries of factory workers making products for the
            U.S. and other markets essentially doubled, from $30.00
            per month, to 60.00 per month. spurred the conditions
            that resulted in GM selling more cars in China, for the
            first time, than in U.S.? What caused that? Wages went up,
            the economy expanded. One more thing. This year the
            projected growth is lower. Only 7,5%. The new incoming
            Party blames the slowing economy, on what they describe
            as a case of the previous administration straying from the fundamental Marxism, that they claim, a growing economy depends on controlling increasing wages. Not, a slowing
            world economy. And since profits, go to the Party elite
            there, as they do corporations here. Who’s right? The GOP, and the Marxist, Communists. Or, me, on wages?

          • paperpushermj

            No Argument from me on this point.

            ” I believe caring
            for the needs, the general well being of a country’s citizens
            is ultimately the government’s responsibility”
            ________________________________________.
            Yes the Federal Government has those responsibilities, but as you know ” The Devil Is In the Details”.

          • bikejedi

            You covered a lot of stuff and I understand some of your angst . I will say I think you have one thing here 180 degrees backward .You Stated….” I suffer under no illusion that the Right Wing
            politicos, would preside over third world conditions, and
            worse” . Uh Maybe in all this excitement over the Presidents comments you didn’t get the Detroit memo ….or the Chicago or Illinois memo or the Cali memo ..Having said that ,…. We are in agreement on a plan being needed …I keep asking two questions no one on the left seems to want to take . One …The funding for the ACA does not come close to working . If you dispute that can you give me your reasons why you think it will fund itself . Two if you believe like I do that it cant fund itself then what would be your alternatives for a workable bill …and TY for a good discussion

          • charleo1

            There’s a funding problem in the status quo, And there will be
            funding problems in ACA. But, we gotta start somewhere.
            Because, it’s not going away. We’ll deal with it, or it will deal
            with us. Right? I say that, because it is impossible to do what
            needs to be done. That is put the control of the healthcare
            system in the hands of the government, and the hands of the
            people. And out of the control of insurance cos. and the entire for profit system. That is essentially wasting 2 of very 3 dollars, paying each provider, all along the line, for whatever way they can think of, to squeeze out another dollar in profit. Not provide better care, or better results. In fact, the worse results, the more profit! Right now every surgeon out there
            is like a kid with a hammer, and everything is a nail. Every person with a pain in their hip, if they’ve got insurance,
            usually Medicare, becomes another hip operation the doctor with admitting privileges, drags to the hospital, the drug cos. the therapy industry, and so on, and on. As does the corruption, and kickbacks, and a never ending supply of
            perks, or the doctor that chooses their ball, and socket
            contraption, that is always of course the newest, best-est
            longest lasting, smoothest, pain free, hip on the market.
            Until more than a hundred thousand just last year were
            found to be ridiculously, poorly made Asian knock offs.
            And you, and I paid the same bill twice. Only as we might
            guess, a lot more patient complications, longer hospital
            stays, more drugs, and lots of therapy, to get these 75,
            and 80 year olds back on their feet. People go berserk if
            anyone starts telling any private sector business what to do.
            And, so it’s hard to run an economy that generates 17/20
            trillion dollars of business a year. But healthcare, the way
            it’s going, is proving it is clearly capable of running it right
            in the ground. Businesses are tired, and see they’re not
            going to be able to keep up with the costs. As more drop
            their worker coverage, it becomes less of an issue for the
            next to follow suit.

          • Guest

            Your argument does not hold water, as other countries have universal healthcare. They have not seen the doom you project.

          • bikejedi

            Great …show me one that has tried to do it in this convoluted manner . Trying to fund it on the backs of young people in the private sector and Companies in the Private Sector while giving them Tax Penalty opt outs that are far cheaper then the Insurance incentivizes them to take the hit and opt out

          • paperpushermj

            “Your argument does not hold water, as other countries have universal healthcare. They have not seen the doom you project”.
            ._______________________________..

            What !!! have you been watching what has been happening in Old Socialist Europe?

          • bikejedi

            Well some of them have pointed out some countries that haven’t failed ….Yet …Because they haven’t run out of money ….Yet

          • Michael Christy

            Your argument does not hold water. Other countries have universal health care. Those countries have not seen the wide devastating effects of your predictions.

          • bikejedi

            Michael..Great …show me one that has tried to do it in this convoluted manner . Trying to fund it on the backs of young people in the private sector and Companies in the Private Sector while giving them Tax Penalty opt outs that are far cheaper then the Insurance incentivizes them to take the hit and opt out

          • paperpushermj

            What Countries are you referring to? Just Curious !

  • ObozoMustGo

    Jason Sattler, useful idiot du jour, once again attempts to carry the water for the Obozo regime. Jason, did the Obozo propaganda team write this for you? Or did you make this up all on your own? Sheesh!!! You give yellow journalism a good name.

    The fact is that the sample data shown is really only indicative of an outlier case, a typical leftist freak rhetorical strategy, and not at all instructional for the rest of America. Anyone NOT in NYC who is reading this has seen their premiums go up substantially this summer. My personal premiums contributions are up 20% this year alone while my employer portion is up nearly 40% (they took most of the increase). And this is just a start. This is being replicated millions of times over across America right now. Even my admin person that supported Obozo and Obozocare now has her eyes open and knows that she was duped.

    Why do you think Obozo illegally decided to not follow his own law that he signed by delaying the employer mandate? Because to do so would have exposed DemonRATS running for office in 2014 to the reality of the horrors they have brought upon America. That’s why.

    So if Obozocare is so great, why do the the DemonRATS keep running from it?

    Have a nice day!

    “If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free!” — P.J. O’Rourke

    • jmprint

      Yes the insurance rates have gone up, but thats typical of the rich taking advantage of the disadvantage. Your premiums like mine didn’t have to go up, they are being raised because the insurance companies are trying to make a killing before the Obamacare is fully enforced. You have every right to complain about the insurance companies, but not Obamacare.

      • paperpushermj

        Sorry your ignorance on this issue is shocking. As an insurer how do you pay the claims coming in from people who from day one cost you because of a prior Medical condition. How do you handle the reality that explodes the fantasy that young healthy people will flock to pay for insurance,when they don’t have to due to no prior condition?

        • jmprint

          There is no ignorance in reality. Facts are facts. . Your last question does not make sense, it’s either reality or a fantasy! Obamacare is not going to be perfect, at the beginning, but it is a start. We are already paying for those that use the emergency rooms without insurance and at a high rate. As soon as the Obamacare was passed as law the rates went up, even before any implementation of anything were in process. Our insurance went from 800.00 to 1200.00 per month!

          • paperpushermj

            If you could buy Flood or Fire insurance after the fact, would you, or would you happily send in a check every Mo.?

          • paperpushermj

            What do you mean! Are you going to actually make payments costing what maybe $4 or $5,000 a year for the better plan? With money in short supply for most Middle Class people, how could they justify spending the money when they can just buy it when they need it?

        • Justin Napolitano

          Simple, 30 million more people are paying premiums on day one.

          • paperpushermj

            “Simple, 30 million more people are paying premiums on day one”.

            ________________________________.

            You Hope !!! I too have a hope! I hope somebody comes up with a Low Fat Cheese Cake that don’t taste like crap.

            Question: Of those 30 million how many will have their Insurance payed for by the Tax payers? This goes to one of the rational for ACA, that being those without Insurance use Emergency Rooms, thereby forcing the tax payer to pay for their care. Either way the tax payer is on the hook to pay the
            Hospital or the Insurance Provider. Six of one or half a dozen it’s the same cost.

    • Tom_P

      I don’t know, man, I think if you’d said ‘Obozo’ and called liberals a bad name about two or three times more, you would’ve convinced me. But as it is, I’m just not sufficiently terrified or whipped into a suitably frothy mix of fear and hatred.

      • edwardw69

        Why do you answer? He gets paid by the site for each response: he works for The National Memo. His job is to create controversy.

        • Tom_P

          Really! The Fifty Cent Army strikes again, I suppose.

          • edwardw69

            Don’t answer him: let him stew in his own juices.

      • bikejedi

        Don’t worry when Obamacare is implemented no one will have to whip you up in a frothy mix …that is unless you are on entitlements are an Illegal Alien or a member of a Public Union ….then you wont notice .

        • Mark Forsyth

          Goes to show what you know about social programs.

      • ObozoMustGo

        Tom….. too bad for you. You’re beyond help. Progressivism is a disease that requires expansion of mental faculties beyond the reach of the vast majority of you lefties. By definition. Only a few very smart people have been able to do it. I’m one of those former leftists that grew up. This is how I know so much about the way the leftist freaks think… errr…. actually don’t think…. they feel.

        Have a nice day!

        “Liberalism is the disease that presents itself as its own cure.” – Unknown

    • Joseph

      Ah, spoken by a gent who really enjoys getting screwed by both his insurance company and his employer – who would NEVER lie, right? I’m sorry your insurance rates went up. Mine went down. So did my employers. Alas. But, when you hate as much as you do, any port in a storm, right?

      • edwardw69

        He doesn’t hate: he probably believes the exact opposite; he’s playing the devil’s advocate. And when you respond, he gets paid. Contact The National Memo and ask them if his/their rates went up.

      • edwardw69

        He doesn’t hate: he probably believes the exact opposite; he’s playing the devil’s advocate. And when you respond, he gets paid. Contact The National Memo and ask them if his/their rates went up.

        • Joseph

          Either way he’s an ass with too much time on his hands.

          • edwardw69

            If I am right–and nobody answers him–he’ll starve to death.
            If I am wrong, and he really is wacked out of the ballpark–and nobody answers him–he will eventually pick up his marbles (the few he has left) and go home.

    • EL Guapo

      You sir are the idiot! You insist on denigrating the name of a good and honest man.If you were standing in front of me,and used that insulting name,you would be standing no more,you F’ IDIOT!

      • paperpushermj

        Once you get past the name calling can you point out where bozo is wrong?

      • JulieZ77

        That creep just simply represents the evil that resides in America. The
        same evil slave drivers, the same evil greed, and the same wild west
        mentality that could only belong to a nineteenth century throwback.

        • Mark Forsyth

          That throwback goes further than the recent wild west,that is pre bi-pedal.

      • bikejedi

        Whats wrong with it ? I think it is pretty accurate

        • ObozoMustGo

          Thanks Jedi!

        • Sand_Cat

          THAT’S WHAT YOU GET FOR THINKING WHEN YOU DO IT SO SELDOM AND SO POORLY. (sorry about the caps; wasn’t shouting, just didn’t want to type it again).

      • ObozoMustGo

        El Guapo… Obozo an “honest man”??????

        bwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

        bwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

        bwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

        Cut it out…. you’re killing me.

        bwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

        bwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

        ROFLMAO!!!!!

        Obozo cannot open his fetid pie hole without a lie falling out. He’s the biggest liar in the history of America. Read his own quote below and consider the recent scandals.

        Have a nice day!

        “This Administration [the Bush Admin.] also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I
        will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.

        “That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.

        “This Administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not.” – Barack Hussein Obozo, August 2007

    • bikejedi

      They tried to do this same PR stunt in Cali and they didn’t mention all the totally shady and erroneous accounting methods they used ,,,When independent people looked at the Cali PR stunt they laughed and pointed out all the errors . they found that Cali would see a big increase

      • ObozoMustGo

        Of course they lied. They have to lie because the truth would result in the immediate removal of all leftist freaks from government. If they told the truth about their schemes and their plans, 80% of America would tell them to go pound sand.

        Have a great day, Jedi!

        “The march of tyranny is so subtle that it goes unnoticed by those poor and timid souls who gladly trade their liberties for the false promises of security from the political class seeking to control them. It certainly is one of the great paradoxes of our time how a formerly great, free, and independent people are being transformed into a bunch of cowering wimps clamoring to be led, and provided for, by charlatans.” – ObozoMustGo

        • bikejedi

          Well I don’t want to make anyone angry but I think the proof that it is bad and the proof that they are trying to hide how bad it is …. Well it is the fact that Obama delayed implementation of it because then people would see how bad it is … as you said …If people knew they would tell them to pound saaaaa.. I will ask what happened to the Dems sticking up for the little guy argument ???? I mean he gives all these Greedy Corporations a break from paying for this Bill while the middle class will still have to pay and get no break ….I guess that blows that whole “The Dems are for the little guy / middle class and all the Republicans are concerned with are those greedy Corporations ” argument completely out of the water

          • ObozoMustGo

            Hey Jedi! You are correct. Most of the morons that vote for DemonRATS do so out of tradition, not conscious thought. The old “DemonRATS are for the working man” is nothing but a long expired myth. The reality is that if anyone really gave it serious thought, they would realized that the modern DemonRAT party is actually for the NON-working man. The working stiffs are needed to support the DemonRAT efforts to enslave the non-working man into perpetual dependency and, in effect, pepetual votes for DemonRATS. It’s not any more complicated than that.
            Have a nice day!

          • bikejedi

            Yes they are definitely not for the little guy as evidenced by Obama delaying Obamacare for Companies but not the individual in the middle class . The GOP version included the individual . Lets see if that gets through the Dem Senate and if Obama signs it . If he does he will of course take credit for it . When you also factor in that Blacks and Women have fared the worse under Obamanomics and you wonder why even the left supports them ..It just shows their indoctrination and cult like devotion . The middle class is shrinking as the Dems tax them into oblivion and the coming age of Obamacare with its 29 hr work week will turn this country into the working poor …Just like Europe . It is funny when you talk to people from Europe they will tell you that all Socialism has created is vast majorities of poor no middleclass and the super wealthy

    • barneybolt12

      You should change your name from obozomustgo to mr.knowitall, since your seem to have every fact available at your finger tips.

      • ObozoMustGo

        Barney… do you wear a purple suit? Perhaps Justin Nappy can get your autograph…. just suggesting…..

        I don’t actually know it all. It just seems that way because of the severe lack of common sense and rational thinking among the leftist freaks. And when such a deficit is measured against my keen intellect, it just seems to you that I know it all.

        Have a nice day!

        “The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant; it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan

        • jmprint

          Your another one of those human beings that are not very nice.

          • ObozoMustGo

            You’re another one of those human beings that’s not very smart. In fact, you’re a downright idiot!
            Have a nice day!

          • jmprint

            You act like a Moron, and I hope you have s shitty day.

      • Sand_Cat

        Anyone can do it if their “facts” are made up on the spot.

    • Justin Napolitano

      Many of us keep running from you. You are like a sore on the a** and health insurance is needed to get rid of it. Thank GOD for Obamacare.

      • ObozoMustGo

        Nappy… go back and finish your bowl of Lucky Charms so you can get back to your XBox games. This place is for adults.

        Have a nice day!

        “Part of being president is there’s so much beneath you that you can’t know because the government is so vast,” – David Axelrod announcing his agreement with the Tea Party that the government is too big, and
        not even the messiah Obozo can control it. May 15, 2013

  • AlfredSonny

    Lower premiums mean lower profits mean smaller bribes to the legislators. Tsk. Tsk.

  • AlfredSonny

    Pre-existing conditions force employees to be at the mercy of their current employers for the fear of not being able to be insured elsewhere.

    • Mark Forsyth

      Or employed!

    • A_Real_Einstein

      You nailed it on the head. Now the burden of providing health insurance to their employees will be greatly diminished. They can opt out and pay the fine. As an employee I am no longer beholden to my employer for health care. I will have access to affordable health care either through my employer or not. In the end we may end up with Single Payer, which is even better.

    • paperpushermj

      Yes that’s right losing one health care insurance does play a part in keeping burnt out workers at their current job, so does not having any money coming in. I applaud you efforts to make life trouble free without any worries … But thats not going to happen.

  • Germansmith

    Hooray for New York…which always had the most extreme rates and insurance regulations. They do not tell you how much will be spend in subsidies paid directly to insurance companies from taxpayers pockets at the beginning of 2014
    How about the rest of us?
    This is like saying “we cut the rate of murder of Chicago by 50%…we should be proud” (which we can not blame on Zimmerman)
    “Lets apply the same solution to North Dakota “

  • bikejedi

    Well Coumo is wrong . Every single survey done has shown that Obamacare is going to increase costs …So far it seems that will be about an 80% increase . It is so bad that all of the Unions who backed it are now admitting it is a train wreck . They all want exemptions and are the first to point out that it will end the 40 hr work week for the Middle class . If Coumo can pull this off I will be surprised . He has to be doing it with bad Accounting or by raiding his states Medicaid

    • Justin Napolitano

      Sorry, but you are wrong. You can’t just change the facts because you don’t like them. You have to be a Republican.

      • bikejedi

        I didn’t change a single fact . I just reported what current estimates are and what the Unions think of Obamacare . If you only get your news from Liberals sites you may have missed the stories this week where the Unions want out of Obamacare . They have claimed it will be the end of full time employment for the middle class because the way the bill is wrotten Companies don’t have to cover part time employees . This was even reported on ABC I believe . Anyway the point is that what I reported is the truth this is the way the Unions ( who originally backed the bill and who supported Obama ) feel …I feel the same way however because it is just common sense . I mean if a Company doesn’t have to cover part time employees why would they hire a full time employee . I agree with these Unions who originally supported Obama and the Bill until the Dems passed it and as Pelosi said …they read it and saw what’s in it …..Oh and they don’t like it …You will have to take that up with these Dem Unions not I ….But I do agree that is what will happen . thank you for being civil

        • jmprint

          Every two employees makes a whole. At the begining they might only hire part time, but it won’t last, as long as congress gets off there ass and starts working on our economy. All of a sudden all republicans are overly zealous religioius people. Look I would be happy if the minimum wage was brought up to the point that at least a family can afford sometype of preventative medical treament. Since 1980 inflation as been rising. Everything has increased over 1000% Except for wages, meanwhle corporations have made billionaires of their board members and company owners. Companies have to take responsibility for their employees I don’t think ACA will be a complete train wreck as long as the teabaggers and the republicans don’t pull the tracks from under it!

          • bikejedi

            I don’t understand your post . What does ” every two employees makes a whole” mean . The GOP in the house has come up with many Jobs plans for the economy that are feasible and have a track record of being the types of things that create real Tax Payers ..Not Govt Jobs programs that just take money out of the private economy to give people loyal to the Dems jobs that we all end up paying for . That never grows GDP in fact It shrinks it . The minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage it is supposed to be a starting job pay . If you were to raise the mimimum wage to a point where people could afford to support themselves and their families on it . You would have to raise it to over $20 / hr ..The left just doesn’t get that to pay people like that McDonalds would be charging $

          • jmprint

            What I mean by every two make one is… Companies will have to cover part time employees also based on two part time make 1 full time.

            The minimum wage was meant to keep up with inflation. Remember cost of living wages? They disappeared into thin air starting with Reagan.

            The rich guys can’t have it both ways, be billionaires at the expense of driving down the economy, because the people they employ can’t afford to buy their product. If they pay them well, they have money to buy the product. The happier the employee the more the employer makes. Like President Obama said it works from the bottom up.

          • bikejedi

            TY for being civil and that was a reasonable response . I will point out that you talk about cost of living increases and somehow tie that to Reagan ??? What Policy or law did he enact that told Private industry what to pay their employees ? I can answer that …NONE . In fact wages for all workers increased under Reagan while the runaway stagflation of the Carter years was erased . Cost of living went down as well as aggregate taxation under Reagan .On to the class warfare argument you made . Billionaires would NEVER want to drive down the economy . They want their companies and their portfolios to increase not decrease and that is one of the biggest mistruths the Occupiers vent out . It has absolutely no logic behind it but it does have the class warfare aspect to it that makes people who don’t understand simple logic or economics to have a straw man to rail against for their anger . It gives them someone to hate for their own shortcomings or lack of drive . Maybe if they emulated the wealthy peoples work ethic they wouldn’t have to be mad or on welfare . They would have their own damn money . You aren’t poor because someone else is rich . In fact the more people that are rich and thriving means the middle class benefits . The income disparity between the rich and poor has increased at the highest rate under Obama . This is largely a function of all the people who have dropped out of the workforce and have given up looking for work . They are now on disability and food stamps . We have many more poor people dependent on entitlements but to Obama he just sees that as increasing the voter rolls . ..One last thing . There is one segment of the population that gets cost of living increases and in fact has had their incomes increase above the cost of living index to the point that on the average they make double what the other segment of the population makes . That segment of the population gets paid in U S Tax Dollars and are the members of Public Unions .

          • bikejedi

            One other thing ..if it works from the bottom up try getting a job from a poor person . Has a poor person EVER given anyone a job ? No the assumption you make doesn’t make sense . If the employer has to pay his employees more he has to cover that by raising prices and that negates the raise as the cost of living goes up for everyone

          • jmprint

            I am not trying to cut you down when I tell you that you obviously do not have the life experience of being around a hard a working class of people.

            Your thinking is just like the Kock brothers and Andy Kessler.

            I am an American citizen born from migrant workers, who worked super hard from dusk to dawn to feed their family, asking nothing from the government.

            I also have been blessed with being self employed for 33 years and, unlike Walmart, never paid my employees minimum wage. We even covered 100% of their insurance.

            Are we billionaire? No. Are we rich? No. Are we proud to be Americans? Yes. When I die I know I will be content I served
            my country with dignity and love. We are all equal, no matter what race or if born into wealth.

            You asked “has a poor person ever given anybody a job.” The answer is yes, there are poor and then there are poorer.

            My Grandmother was very poor, but she would hire a person to do tasks she couldn’t do, so they could eat.

            OH MY ASSUMPTION ARE BASED ON REALITY, NOT HEAR SAY.

          • bikejedi

            While you grandma may have hired some one for some handy man work there is no way she hired someone full time or there is no way she is poor . I have worked some very menial jobs in my day with some hard working people . I too have also owned my own business in the past . Look as much as you may want to buy the easy and erroneous class warfare argument of building an economy from the bottom up you will never be able to show a working model of that . The only models of that are complete and utter failures . You can look it up . Do a Google search

    • paperpushermj

      bikejedi when are you going to get it, they don’t care about cost because they don’t think it will cost them anything. This is the same mentality that doesn’t care about raising taxes on others, again because others will be hit with higher taxes… Not Them.

      • bikejedi

        Well I’m trying to drive that point home in ways their minds can see . Obamacare is nothing more then simple wealth redistribution . It takes money from producers and their employers and funnels it to Illegal Aliens and Entitlement people . The funny thing is that most of the low information people on entitlements think that no one pays for it . They think everything is free . And that is how the Dems like them Stupid ignorant yet sated and believing the Dems just gave them something for free .

        • paperpushermj

          Keep trying for you are the one Eyed man in the land of the Blind. But my fear is that couching our argument on facts and logical thinking only finds a home in certain parts of the Human Mind. Our opponents have had 30- 40 years studying their base and have learned that for them, they need to shape their message on Emotion, Fear and loathing of Others, and personal gain.

  • Kurt CPI

    As always, the proof will be in the pudding. In our last state election cycle, private retailers (led by Costco and other large chains) lobbied voters to take the exclusive sale of distilled spirits away from the state and permit sales by retailers (as it is in many other states). Their tag lines insisted prices would drop because retailers could shop for the best wholesale prices. This has proved entirely untrue. In fact retail liquor costs 30 – 40% more than it did in state-run liquor stores. There’s a lot of good intention in Obamacare and I truly hope the financial end of things goes as advertised (their’s not a prayer of it being killed). But, being the skeptic that I am, I have my reservations.

  • David Morgan

    The U.S. is the only Western Country without some form of socialized medicine. These other countries has taken the profit-motive from people being aided who are ill. in the U. S. hospitals make a fortune on hospital costs because they know people will pay anything to stay alive..

    What a joke!

  • charleo1

    Dominick is right here. The objections at this point are more political than economic.
    McConnell said on Meet the Press, “It’s going to be a train wreck” I’ve read that
    totally meaningless little snippet three, or four times here. McConnell also said,
    “I guess President Obama knows it too. Otherwise, why is he putting the employer’s
    mandate off until after the election?” Nothing to do with a bunch of, Red State Republicans, who are under the impression if they don’t like a law, they may ignore
    it? They just think they don’t like Obama. I’d send Federal troops after their arrogant,
    obstinate asses. Then, I get them on the phone, one by one, and give them 5 minutes to tell me how many uninsured citizens they have in their States. If they couldn’t, I’d lock them up, until I got an answer. And, I’d put a stop personally to this mucking around with the vote, while I was at it. And, just so they’d know I was back from vacation, and while the Red State Revolutionaries took a serious look at the deplorable conditions in their States. I’d go over to Capital Hill, and stick a burr up Harry Reid’s rear end. too. And, by the end of the day, I’d have settled one little GOP back, and forth, about whether I was neglecting to provide leadership, or being a dictator.

  • RobertCHastings

    It is about time that Obama is finally attempting to educate the public on the ACA and its benefits to individuals. There are four people in my household who will benefit from full implementation, plus a daughter and son-in-law, and another daughter-in-law and grandchild. My wife and I should see our monthly costs reduced (incl. Medicare premiums, Part B. supplement costs, and part D costs). Another member will benefit from the implementation of the marketplace, as she is unable to afford insurance now. The Democrats seriously dropped the ball on educating the public on this program and have allowed conservatives to preempt them.