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Thursday, January 18, 2018

Smoke and fire, sirens blaring, horns honking, a sudden hail of bullets. This is what passes for the American dialogue on race and justice.

It’s hidden until it explodes.

“By 10 p.m.,” the Wall Street Journal informed us, “a St. Louis County Police squad car burned just down the street from the Ferguson Police Department, with spare ammunition ‘cooking off’ or exploding in the car.”

Those who want to shake their heads in disgust can do so. American institutional racism conceals itself so neatly from those who prefer not to see it and, of course, aren’t victimized by it. And then every so often something sets off the public trigger — an 18-year-old young man is shot and killed by a police officer, for instance — and the reality TV that is our mainstream news brings us the angry, “violent” response, live. And it’s always one side against another; us vs. them. It’s always war.

“But what is justice in a nation built on white supremacy and the destruction of black bodies?” Mychal Denzel Smith wrote in The Nation the day after the grand jury announced that police officer Darren Wilson would not be indicted. “That’s the question we have yet to answer. It’s the question that shakes us up and makes our insides uncomfortable. It’s the question that causes great unrest.”

What is justice, indeed? And beyond that question are the real questions, perhaps unanswerable. What is healing? What is peace?

If an officer had been indicted in Michael Brown’s killing, and then convicted on one charge or another, maybe that would have been justice, in a “case closed” sort of way. In our limited legal bureaucracy, justice means nothing more than punishment. Even when such justice is done, it changes nothing. The state’s “interest” has been satisfied and that’s all that matters. The terrible loss suffered by parents, friends and community would remain a gaping wound. And beyond that, the social brokenness and racism that caused the tragedy in the first place would remain unaddressed, unhealed.

But not even that minimal justice was in the cards for the loved ones of Michael Brown, or the occupied community in which he lived — because that’s not how it works. Officer Wilson, whatever he did inside or outside the state’s rules on the use of lethal force when he confronted Brown on the afternoon of Aug. 9, was just doing his job, which was controlling and intimidating the black population of Ferguson. He was on the front line of a racist and exploitative system — an occupying bureaucracy.

The New York Times, in its story about the grand jury verdict, began thus: “Michael Brown became so angry when he was stopped by Officer Darren Wilson on Canfield Drive here on Aug. 9, his face looked ‘like a demon,’ the officer would later tell a grand jury.”

This sort of detail is, of course, of immense value to those who sympathize with the police shooting and accuse the black community of endemic lawlessness. See! Michael Brown wasn’t just a nice, innocent boy minding his own business. He and his companion were trouble incarnate, walking down the middle of the street spoiling for a fight. He was Hulk Hogan. The cop had no choice but to shoot, and shoot again. This was a demonic confrontation. Politeness wouldn’t have worked.

If nothing else, such testimony shows the stark limits of our “who’s at fault?” legal system, which addresses every incident in pristine, absurd isolation and has no interest beyond establishing blame — that is to say, officially stamping the participants as either villains, heroes or victims. Certainly it has no interest in holistic understanding of social problems.

Taking Wilson’s testimony at face value, one could choose to ask: Why was Michael Brown so angry?

Many commentators have talked about the “anger” of Ferguson’s black community in the wake of the shooting, but there hasn’t been much examination of the anger that was simmering beforehand, which may have seized hold of Brown the instant the police officer stopped him.

However, an excellent piece of investigative journalism by Radley Balko of the Washington Post, which ran in September — “How municipalities in St. Louis County, MO, profit from poverty” — addresses the issue head on. He makes the point that local municipal governments, through an endless array of penny-ante citations and fines — “poverty violations” — torment the locals for the primary, or perhaps sole, purpose of keeping their bureaucracies funded.

“Some of the towns in St. Louis County can derive 40 percent or more of their annual revenue from the petty fines and fees collected by their municipal courts,” Balko writes. The fines are mostly for traffic offenses, but they also include fines for loud music, unmown lawns, “wearing saggy pants” and “vague infractions such as ‘disturbing the peace,'” among many others, and if the person fined, because he or she is poor, can’t pay up, a further fine is added to the original, and on and on it goes.

“There’s also a widely held sentiment that the police spend far more time looking for petty offenses that produce fines than they do keeping these communities safe,” Balko writes. “If you were tasked with designing a regional system of government guaranteed to produce racial conflict, anger, and resentment, you’d be hard pressed to do better than St. Louis County.”

Regarding the anger and resentment in communities like Ferguson, he quotes a longtime racial justice activist, Jack Kirkland, who says: “I liken it to a flow of hot magma just below the surface. It’s always there, building, pushing up against the earth. It’s just a matter of time. When it finds a weak point, it’s going to blow.”

And when it blows, we get to watch it on TV: the flames, the smoke, the rage, the ammo “cooking off.” This is what institutional racism looks like when we finally notice it.

Robert Koehler is an award-winning, Chicago-based journalist and nationally syndicated writer. His new book, Courage Grows Strong at the Wound (Xenos Press) is now available. Contact him at, visit his website at or listen to him at Voices of Peace radio.

AFP Photo/Mladen Antonov

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260 Responses to Racism: It’s The Law

  1. I would not go as far as saying that America will NEVER be ready for a conversation about race, if nothing else because the progress achieved since the Civil Rights movement prove otherwise, but I think it is fair to say that this generation is determined to ignore the injustices that prevail in our society because of prejudices so ingrained in our psyche that we simply refuse to even talk about it.
    In my opinion, the emphasis placed by those who reject change on what they believe is evidence of worse race relations, is just evidence of determination to preserve the status quo. For them, the fact that ethnic minorities are protesting and demanding equal justice for all constitute a dangerous demand that must be rejected. The ideal world for a white supremacist is a society where everybody knows their place and the role they are expected to play. Equality, for them, means the end of superiority, the end of servitude, and the end of policies that condone heinous crimes and injustices when the targets are people that look, sound, and behave differently from the majority of the population. How do they justify their beliefs? Not all men were created equal.

    • There have been great advances in race relations by hard working people you call white supremacist. We have wanted and expected them to improve their own lot and have not denied them their place in society to succeed.
      There was a poor decision on Garner but not in Brown decision.
      Black on Black killing is out of control and you expect the police not to be on edge and not concerned for their life when entering the war zone in black communities, is just plain naive. Blacks killed (150+)by police last year was minuscule to the 42 million blacks, but in your eyes it is in thousands.
      We are not superior, pushing servitude as you claim.
      They will continue to be”their own worst enemy” when they continue to listen and follow the race-baiters like the likes Sharpton.

      • Mike, Black on Black crime has absolutely nothing to do with race relations between whites and ethnic minorities. It is a serious problem, that deserves attention and an honest attempt to solve, but it is a different topic…conveniently used by the right wing to justify their untenable position on abuses of power and our ineffective justice system.
        The Garner case was beyond horrific, and since that tragic and unnecessary crime was caught on tape it is, understandably, more difficult for advocates of the status quo to defend. The Brown case was equally disgusting, but since there were no credible eye witnesses, judgment rests on the fallacy of shooting an unarmed teenager 8 (EIGHT) times for an alleged petty crime. The most egregious part of Brown’s murder is the fact that a not so “Grand” Jury did not even indict the officer that shot him. Had that officer faced a jury and had he been found innocent, that would have been the end of it. But that was not the case.
        White supremacists, the Neo-Nazis, the KKK and all the other white hate groups have done absolutely nothing to improve race relations. In fact, they are the reason race relations remain tense. There are many white people – the majority – who have come a long way on this issue, and who don’t demonstrate hatred or even antagonism against ethnic minorities, but that is not the case for hate groups.

        • I agree with most of both your post. But the Brown case was the correct decision. It was suicide by police. Wrong incident to rap a National cause around.

          • So what about the case in Staten Island where they choked a black man to death in an incident over selling loose cigarettes? Was that the correct decision too, even though the act by the officer was illegal?

          • Do you really think any taxing authority was actually pushing for recouping losses from selling single cigarettes? That seems very unlikely to me — do you have any evidence this was the case?

          • I only addressed the Brown case. Staten Island is a different issue. So what about it? What is your opinion?

          • My personal belief is that it was obviously a crime and should have been prosecuted. I don’t know if it was a racist crime — that’s a different issue. But I must say that it’s easy to understand why black people might see it that way, especially with so many similar cases happening at almost the same time.

            Maybe the Grand Jury disliked black people or just liked police a lot. I don’t really understand it, because grand juries are supposed to be able to indict a ham sandwich as the saying goes. But apparently not if that ham sandwich is made with white bread, because there are plenty of white people out there doing these same things and you don’t see police killing them left and right.

            I just think either way it stinks to high heaven — more so that the Brown case. But with so many events I also understand why black people are afraid and angry.

        • Black on Black has everything to do with what is going on in America. The black culture is one of the main reasons that all is not well in this country when it comes to racism. No snitch and its prevailing attitude in the communities, the I am the victim not the cause, etc., is exactly what the police have to deal with everyday.
          The Brown incident and the Garner brought it to the fore.
          As to Brown, the autopsy revealed that Brown’s hand was shot inside the car with his blood on the clothing of Wilson. Why was his hand in the car?? Wilson was punched in the head but this means nothing to you. Even the govt said it wouldn’t contest the findings. The jury was given all the facts and that was their findings.
          Explain why none of Johnson testimony has been made public, when the rest of the testimony of witnesses has, why has Holder asked that it not be released?? Did he lie about “hands up”??
          Your last paragraph is pure crap. It is the white mans fault for the racial divide, just ignore the Black Panthers and really ignore the Nation Of Islam and other black hate groups. Both parties have none nothing to improve race relations. Just the white fringe groups are the bad guys, such horse manure.

          • If the first shot that hit Brown was while he was struggling with Wilson in the patrol car, and he retreated after being shot, why did Wilson shoot him 7 (seven) more times? By the way, according to the coroner, the trajectory of the shots in the arm were in the upwards direction, which indicate his arms were up. As for the scratches in the back of Wilson’s head, I am as impressed with that as I am with George Zimmerman’s head injuries.
            Black on black is, indeed, a serious problem, but the effects of it affects the African American community a lot more than relations between whites and blacks.
            Regarding your statement that African Americans consider themselves victims, I would say that it is not too hard to understand why. From the days they were brought to this country in shackles, sold to the highest bidder, whipped, and abused, to the days when they were lynched for just about anything their white masters found offensive, to the days they were denied service at cafeterias, has to drink water from a separate fountain, or had to ride the back of the bus, to today, when they are stopped and presumed guilty the moment they step out of their houses, and sometimes arrested, beaten, or shot, they have many reasons to feel victimized.
            Having said that, I admit that the best way for them to achieve equality and prosper is to get an education, and pursue the same opportunities everyone else does. Claiming victim hood is not going to get them anywhere in a country where many of its citizens – regardless of ethnicity or social status – consider themselves victims or targets of mysterious threats.

          • Dom, you can’t make autopsy to fit your idea of events. Facts are facts, just not how you want them. “If he was first shot……………why did Wilson shoot him 7 more times” ? Brown turned and ran back, that is why he was shot, even while Wilson told him to stop. Read the damn testimony.
            Wrong again on trajectory, oh great maven.

            This victim crap comes straight from the race baiting sharpton, jackson and others. They want excuses for their lack of success. They are their own worst enemy. There has been slavery for thousands of years through out the world and many found a way to improve their lot, so save me that they were mistreated a century ago.

            Tell me exactly what the Blacks are being denied in this society. Be specific, what are they being denied that is stopping them??

          • What are African Americans being denied? Justice! If the police officers that shot Michael Brown and Eric Garner had been tried, and found innocent, the protests we have seen would have come to a halt.
            Yes, ethnic minorities have access to public schools and all the social programs, as every other American does, and they should take advantage of those opportunities to better themselves. Unfortunately, that is only part of the solution. When a society condones the atrocities cited above, and looks for excuses to explain why the killers of two unarmed men were not tried in a Court of law, it is obvious that not every American is treated equally.

          • What hogwash!!!! The Brown autopsy proved that what was first reported, and you live by, was 99% wrong, it’s not what you want to admit, but it was correct. “Atrocities” what a crock of more dung from you.
            Garner, is and will be continue to be another story. What you and your ilk won’t admit is that a female Black officer was there on the scene and did nothing. You don’t know nor do I know what she testified to before the grand jury.
            You take two incidents, which you are totally wrong on, and try to make out the justice doesn’t prevail for the black population. Again, plain, unadulterated HOGWASH. Nothing surprises me with your twisted logic.
            The paradox is that blacks suffer from crime and perceived injustice, yet the efforts to stop crime seems to fuel this perceived injustice.

          • Black represent 13% of population commit 50% of the murders, 90% of murders committed by blacks are to other blacks.

  2. Discussion about race? Talk is cheap. Based on some of my own thoughts, as well as those of friends and family, it may be fair to say that white people DO perceive large segments of the black community as lawless and violent (i.e., lock the car door, there’s two black men standing on the corner looking like they’re “up to no good”). Older white people (I’m 68) who have lived through the last 50-60 years seeing white people lose jobs so black people could fill them; seeing black people receiving handout after handout, help at home, help at school, Headstart, free meals, free phones, etc. — are in many cases sick of it. And in these lean economic times, the resentment builds as the perception is that the government is taking MY hard-earned money and giving it away to the undeserving. Many of us live in cities where, on average, 2-3 young black men a week are being shot and killed by other young black men. You find yourself thinking — hey, have at it then; just keep it out of MY neighborhood.
    Notice I said this is a perception. For those of us who are very busy keeping the wolf barely from our doors — it certainly strengthens the feeling that it’s “every man for himself.”

    • It can be proven, in every state in the nation, there are more poor whites receiving “handout after handout”, “headstart”, “free phones” (started by republican president), etc.
      So whites (and red states) get the majority of these services by our federal government.
      So, yes, from your very statements you appear to be racist.

      • I’m saying the “perception” is there — and the average person doesn’t think much past perceptions unless the issue directly affects them. And yes, the perceptions are racist. But it doesn’t exonerate the black communities, and especially the black leaders and spokespeople, from recognizing that change, and responsibility, have to begin from within the communities, educational institutions, etc.

        • I apologize janis, you did say “perception”. However, the statement “But what is justice in a nation built on white supremacy and the destruction of black bodies?” says it in a nutshell.
          if the nation has institutionalized racism, what chance is there for justice?

          • It has everything to do with racism, and it starts with utterly stamping out racists until they have no more ability to commit racism. THEN you can start talking about communities of ALL ethnic backgrounds, because they will be roughly the same from a crime perspective. You have no evidence of anything else, because racism has never yet been stamped out in the US. But it will be.

          • It is the perception race bating black dividers push. Same as the race bating white dividers push. Both seem to want to keep the races apart.

          • No the racist eat up every word they spew. The hope is telling a lie often more people will believe it to be truth. Seems to be working.

          • Did not state that. Reread the post, stated racist eat up every word they spew.

            They are fishing for new converts.

          • If we are to judge by race, then we could judge the white race by the Jeffery Dahmers, Ted Bundys, James Woods, Paul Rhoades, and all those nut jobs killing people in schools, malls, theaters, and fast food places. Putting the emphasis on race, when it makes the race they hate look bad, is racism itself.

        • You obviously do not know what you are talking about. There have been Black institutes of higher education since the 1850’s. The majority of Black people do not live in the ghetto and are therefore not unaware of the need for change. This is not a new sentiment.
          Read the writings of WEB Dubois, Booker T. Washington, Marcus Garvey and others. The problem is that too many people like you only perceive the Black minority of criminals as if it was all of Black America.
          Like many White Americans you look at the news as totally factual. The truth is that they show what sells. Most Americans could care less about what Black America is doing unless it is bad.

        • If you calculate the number of Blacks to Whites receiving aid you would think that what you state is true, however; when you calculate the population of Blacks to Whites you will also notice that there are more Whites than Blacks. The disparity of the numbers indicates that the number of Blacks exceed the number of Whites on government assistance. If the numbers of Blacks and Whites were equal than the ratio of Blacks on public assistance would exceed the amount of Whites on government aid.

          • I don’t think that you have a good argument. If the population of black people was equal to that of white people, then they wouldn’t be a minority and it would be near impossible to discriminate against them even in hiring. Maybe such a scenario would mean that white people on public assistance would actually increase, since black people would be able to more effectively compete for jobs. You simply don’t know, and ‘what if’ arguments like this aren’t very useful.

    • come to my state and I can show you plenty of white folks who receive government handouts. Also I can show you plenty of white folks who kill each other and commit crimes against each other. I live in an area where we have huge industrial farms and all of the workers are undocumented Mexicans. Why? Because no white man would believe that such work is worthy of them, and they would rather be on welfare. And don’t get me started about the the very same farmers, who receive government subsidies to the tune of millions of dollars (they are also exclusively white folks). I see little difference between those subsidies and welfare payments, except that the welfare payments do have a tendency to have a larger impact on the local economy by giving poor people some purchasing power.So take off the blinders and look around. With regard to the cops, I have also seen that they love to arrest poor people for the most trivial offenses. It’s so much easier to get the low hanging fruit than to actually go out and solve crimes.

      • I repeat — I’m talking about perception. I KNOW what you say is true. But that doesn’t change the perception (and likely the reality) that blacks have to start healing themselves, their own neighborhoods, their own lives. Education is critical. Being willing to put your butt on the line to get bad people out of your neighborhood (ratting the bad guys out) is critical. The Al Sharptons of the world feed at the trough of the downtrodden black man. Leadership is critical.

          • You know, this has caused me to remember something. Al Sharpton ‘ratted out’ crack dealers during the 1980s crack epidemics in inner city neighborhoods (ghettos). Yet you seem to hate his guts and not approve of him at all. Why do you do things like say black people should be good role models yet talk bad about a black President, and black people should turn in other black people for crimes yet you hate the ones who actually do it? It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. It almost seems like no matter what black people do you will hate it.

        • Sorry if I have a silly question, but why would people ‘rat out’ their neighbors if they don’t believe that they will get fair treatment by the justice system? Just wondering.

          • Not really, it will usually just end up creating somebody who is pissed off when they get out of jail — unless you are talking about very serious crimes — and who in the hell can blame black people for being suspicious of the police anyway? It’s not like everyone in the world doesn’t already know that black people are treated much more harshly in the American justice system. I hope you aren’t silly enough to deny this, because then you wouldn’t be a serious person.

        • Young lady, you speak wisdom. However, the young generation think us gray beards do not know anything.
          History keeps repeating itself because youth thinks they know all. Yes, I am a young at heart 72 year old goat! Happy New Year and many more!

      • The topic brought out the racists in full force. I live in a state where there is very few Black people. Those, that are here, are very well educated. I worked for Health and Welfare. 99 percent of our recipients were white. Sure, I know a few racists. They are usually people who never finished high school and resent the nuclear physicist getting a better job than they have. In our state, though, they aren’t overt with their racism. I met a guy who moved here from Georgia. When Paula Dean (who can’t even speak understandable English) got in trouble for using the N word, he said that they always used that word in Georgia and the Black people didn’t mind. OH, yeah, they didn’t mind, they were just scared to speak up. By the way, you people, who talk like Paula Dean, what is cooking oal?

        • There are many dialects spoken in America, all are proper and correct. It is a sign of ignorance to be unable to understand the different dialects.

          You probably are unable to understand English spoken by the English!

    • Very, very well said…….. How can you speak of race relations when the perpetrators would rather kill you than look at you just because they have been egged on by a higher authority and you happen to be white. I say the same thing, please stay out of my neighborhood.

      What you reap you sow. It is the Black community that needs to change the ideology of what people percieve of them. They have been helped and coddled along in more ways than Sunday. Obviously, this tactic is not working. Idle hands are the devils workshop. No one can help them unless they help themselves first. They have had since 1893 to turn this thing around, yet they still blame the White race. Geez

  3. Born and raised in Youngstown Ohio, It’s easy to see first hand why racism is an issue. It’s not skin color, it’s character. It’s also the direct result of decades of Democrat political rule.

    • Exactly. Grew up in Las Vegas, NV during the height of the riots. It was not White Americans causing the problems. White Americans were quiet. It was an excuse by Blacks to copy what was going on in the 70’s to make their own mark by copying the rest of what the country was doing. No one at the school I attended did anything to precipitate the riots. The Blacks did this all on their own.

      • Where your a member of the BUCK hats? Didn’t that stand for Brothers United Caucasian Klan? Weren’t they also instigating the fights between black and white students of Rancho High School during the late 60’s and early 70’s. Yes it was a reflection of what was happening nationwide on both sides.

        • Did you mean ‘Were?’ Never heard of BUCK.

          Wrong school, never incited anything. As I stated before they incited. I was there, I saw what happened. Blacks were taken and put in the cafeteria. Had to walk through the middle of all the taunting because my mother worked at the school. When the White kids finally wanted to retaliate they were rounded up and sent to ‘juvy.’ The black kids who incited the problems were merely sent home.

          You might as well stop your silly ranting because you don’t know squat about what happened. You weren’t there.

          • Yes, thank you I did mean were. I live in Vegas and before that Ventura County, California and before that New York. What school are you referring to so I can research the issue. You understand that based on the tone of your posts someone might question the degree of of taunting on both sides.

    • Gee where were you doing the decades of Republican political rule, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Sr, and George W. Bush that is 2.5 decades. Which “Trickle Down Economics” was born and failed.

      • Well, in 1984 I joined the USAF and served until my Honorable discharge in 1995. I went to Saudi as part of Desert Storm one week after Kuwait was invaded and returned in March the following year. That was the longest camping trip I was ever on, LOL. Nixon was a crook, but nothing compared to the current POTUS. I liked Reagan, as much prosperity followed him. I noticed you did not mention Carter or Clinton. Carter as the worst President in our generation, both economically and in foreign affairs. I say was for a reason. Clinton wasn’t so bad, except for the damage he did to veterans benefits, which was a deciding factor in NOT staying till full retirement. Since then I have supported myself working fulltime in the healthcare industry. Currently I’m an eldely caretaker and avid deer hunter. I also like gardening and photography (wildlife) and reside way off the beaten path in the Pa wilds.
        AS I have gotten older and wiser, I think ALL of them are thieves. I think our governments, beyond the local level, are all corrupt. I really love my country and the people in it, even when we don’t agree on some things.
        Let me be the first to wish you and yours a Happy New Year!

        • What has Obama done that makes him a crook? I did not mention Democrats because I was responding to your statement: ” It’s also the direct result of decades of Democrat political rule.” I prefer this type of exchange rather than when people are calling each other names, which does nothing to resolve their differences. May you and your family have a Safe and Happy New Year and it brings you peace, prosperity and health.

          • Granny, you are only nice when it serves your sides purpose. If we disagree with you we’re toast in your eyes…… Happy New Year to you to…..

          • Honey I am only nasty when someone is nasty and disrespectful to me, otherwise I am just a sweet old granny. Have a Safe and Happy New Year to you and yours.

        • You know, there was this other upstanding young fella who was also in the USAF based in Tampa, FL. You know, the ‘stand your ground’ state. He was in a Tallahassee night club when a huge fight broke out. He went to his car and retrieved his legal firearm (he had a CCW permit) and put it in his waistband, then looking in the crown to try to retrieve his friends

          Well, he was attacked by somebody in the mob, and knocked to the ground. This nice young serviceman with no criminal record pulled his weapon while he was on the ground and fired at the leg of his attacker. Nobody was killed, thank God — only injured by bullet fragments.

          Well, to make a long story short, this nice young fella who was serving in our Air Force ended up being sentenced to 25 years in prison. Can you image? Why would this happen to a upstanding young serviceman who served as one of your brothers in the USAF? Truly sad and mystifying.

          Oh yes — I almost forgot: He was black and this happened in Tallahassee — also known as Southern Georgia. But they always treat them colored fellas very well in that neck of the woods — don’t they? There isn’t any racism in the US anymore, right? Please help me understand this.

          BTW, his name is Michael Giles if you want to look it up. I’m sure that a nice, intelligent young fella like you can help me unravel this mystery.

          • Well, I heard that posting links wasn’t allowed here, and I’m not very good at that sort of thing these days anyway (fingers are the fourth thing to go, I’m afraid). But if you use that google page and type in the name it will come right up.

            I’ll copy a little bit of the story for you.

            OK, this is from the Grio so I better give them credit because everyone is so doggone lawsuit happy these days:

            “A former U.S. airman is currently sitting in a Florida prison for what his supporters argue was a simple act of self-defense.

            Just two years into a 25-year sentence, he joins a list of cases that have drawn national attention to the Sunshine State’s sentencing and gun laws. Encouraged by the activity, his family is hoping to stir up interest in his case and is currently petitioning Florida’s governor for clemency.

            In the spring of 2010, 26-year-old Michael Giles was on active duty with the Unites States Air Force and stationed in Tampa. The married father of three had recently finished two tours in the Middle East and was looking forward to a career in the military, says his family. One night in February, a friend invited Giles to party at a Tallahassee nightclub. Shorty after arriving, a fight broke out among members of fraternities from nearby Florida A&M University.

            According to court documents, an argument quickly escalated into a brawl involving 30 to 40 young men.

            Giles reportedly was not involved in the melee but, separated from his friends, went outside to the car where he had a gun, for which he had a concealed carry permit. Giles put the weapon in his pants pocket and searched the crowd for his friends. Suddenly, he says, someone from the crowd punched him. Knocked to the ground and in fear for his life, Giles says he pulled out the gun and fired one shot into the leg of his alleged attacker.

            Three men were injured, wounded by bullet fragments. Giles was immediately arrested and charged with second-degree attempted murder.

            Aside from his having no criminal background, Giles’ supporters argue that he was merely defending himself from an unprovoked attack. In fact, when testifying in the case, the man who punched Giles, Courtney Thrower, admitted that the assault was random. “The first person I get to I’m going to hit,” he remembered thinking.

            Other witnesses testified that Thrower, having heard of an attack on one of his fraternity brothers, was outside of the nightclub pacing with his fists clenched and, in the middle of the brawl, “leapfrogged” from the crowd to hit Giles. Despite all of that, according to the Florida state prosecutors, Giles had no right to use deadly force that night.

            “The evidence is clear here that the act of pointing a gun into a group of people, even if you’re not specifically deciding to kill them, is a crime,” said Assistant State Attorney Jack Campbell in his closing statements during the trial. “There is no self-defense that is applicable based on the evidence that’s before the jury.”

            The defense argued, however, that Giles was justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent “imminent death or great bodily harm” to himself.

            “He doesn’t have to think he’s going to get killed, even though people looking in from the outside thought someone could get killed,” said defense attorney Don Pumphrey in his closing. “If the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, where he had a right to stand, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.”

            The jury disagreed however and Giles was ultimately convicted in August of 2011 of the lesser charge of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, a crime that comes with a mandatory minimum sentence of twenty years in the state of Florida. It is the same sentence Marissa Alexander received in her controversial case – a case recently awarded a new trial on appeal.

            “10-20-Life” (Florida Statute 775.087) is a controversial Florida law under which Giles and Alexander were sentenced. It confers a minimum sentence of 10 years for a felony conviction where a firearm is merely brandishing. Firing the gun adds another 10 years – even if no one was hit, as was the case with Alexander. And, if someone is hit, the shooter necessarily faces 25 years to life in prison.

            “Frankly, I think the 25-year mandatory is overly harsh on the facts of this case, but that’s what the law requires I do and I intend to follow the law,” said Judge James C. Hankinson when issuing Giles’ verdict

            Given the facts of the case, Giles’ supporters – led in an effort by his parents – are hoping to have his case reevaluated by the state. His mother, Phyllis Giles, has created an online petition through asking Florida Governor Rick Scott for executive clemency for her son. She claims that not only do the facts of the case show that Michael was reasonably defending himself, but that his lawyer pressured him against taking the stand and evoking a “Stand-Your-Ground” defense.

            Giles’ new defense attorney is currently in the process of filing a motion for post-conviction relief, claiming that he received ineffective assistance of counsel and, so far, the petition for clemency has received more than 56,000 signatures.

            Florida State Senator Dwight Bullard (D-39) has also written a letter to Gov. Scott asking him to commute Giles’ sentence. According to a statement to theGrio from Bullard’s office, he has received no response from the governor.

            “As of yet our office has heard nothing from Gov. Scott’s office. His office has time and again proven non-responsive on issues related to injustice,” Bullard said in a statement to theGrio. “He subsequently has turned a definitive blind eye to high[-]profile plights of injustice involving African-Americans. His lack of intervention on behalf of Marissa Alexander and lack of compassion for the killings of Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis have not gone unnoticed by Black Floridians – and all Floridians. So it comes as no surprise that he has been noticeably absent in the case of Michael Giles. Nonetheless I will continue pressing his office and others to take notice of cases like Mr. Giles, Ms. Alexander and others.”

            In response, John Tupps, deputy press secretary for Governor Scott, told theGrio, “Florida is at a 42-year low in its crime rate, and Governor Scott works every day to ensure that Florida families are kept safe and have the opportunity to live the American Dream.”

            Michael Giles supporters believe that’s not enough and are asking for direct action on his behalf. Ultimately, Phyllis Giles says she would like the state to take into consideration her son’s character and the extraordinary circumstance he was in the night of the shooting.

            “Michael is a very caring person, never been in trouble, never been arrested. He’s a family man. We’re a bible-based family and both my husband and I are retired military,” she says. “We believe that we have raised a good man, so we don’t understand how the state of Florida could sentence him to 25 years in prison for defending himself. Michael is a good man. He is honest. He is hard working and, through all of this, he is our rock and confidence we need to keep fighting.”

            I’m a-telling you it has me mighty confused. How can this happen to such a nice young Air Force fella in Florida where they have the ‘stand your ground’ law? As far as I know, that law just says if you have a legal right to be where you are (he did) and you have a legal weapon (he did) and you are attacked and in fear (he was) that you have the right to use your weapon. And nobody was even killed.

          • As I stated in my post below, Giles mistake was not leaving when he could have. That put the other dumb laws in play. I’m in agreement with you on the overall subject of wrongful conviction, but not with you on the racism issue. The Zimmerman case was clearly self defense, still a tragedy that didn’t need to happen. The Giles case could have been avoided, if Giles would have just left peacefully and set up a meeting point with his friends in advance if they got separated. Florida laws suck! I think we can agree here, how about you?

          • I agree that Florida seems to have some bizarre laws — and equally bizarre people, I might add. Yet Michael Giles had far more reason to not leave than George Zimmerman — who was even told to leave by the police. And the stand your ground law specifically states that there is no requirement whatever to leave — that’s why they call it the ‘stand your ground’ law.

            Yet Micheal Giles was sent to prison for 25 years to life, and he didn’t even kill anyone. George Zimmerman killed a teenager, and he was following that boy which was clearly shown by his phone records if I recall. I myself might confront somebody who was following me, especially when I was a teenager full of piss and vinegar. I wouldn’t really think of getting shot back than, but then I wasn’t black either. Maybe I would have gotten shot anyway, so it’s a good thing nobody followed me.

            The whole thing just seems wildly out of balance to me, and the only real difference seems to be black skin. This isn’t the only case like this in Florida either. Another black person in Southern Georgia (Jacksonville) — this time a woman was sentenced to 20 years for just firing warning shots that didn’t even hit anyone. She already had a court protection order against him for abuse, although I admit I don’t know all the details. It all just seems very, very odd to me.

          • Ok, checked it out on several different sites and articles. I agree somewhat, that Giles is a victim, but not of racism. He and Marissa Alexander are both victims of a legal battle fought by State Attorney Angela B. Corey who was Indicted in July of 2013 on charges of falsifying the arrest warrant for George Zimmerman, Corey is a lighting rod for criticism related to her handling of the prosecution of both George Zimmerman and Marissa Alexander. The link I will provide will better explain the laws involved. For the record Corey is a Democrat totally against “stand your ground laws”.

            With all that in mind, Giles made the mistake of NOT LEAVING when he easily could have. His friends safety, short of being threatened with a knife or gun, was not his responsibility. Do I think he should have been convicted? Hell no! But it’s not a racial issue, it’s an issue of conflicting laws and a prosecutor who hates the “Stand your Ground” law, as most Liberal’s do.

            I have had the pleasure of being at a seminar here in PA conducted by our State Representative and Congressman (State level), two county prosecutors and the two county sheriffs concerning conceal carry and “Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground” laws in Pa. Sadly, by not leaving for over an hour prior to his attack, plus going to retrieve his firearm doomed him under the law. Simply put, Giles had the opportunity to leave prior to being attacked and was under no duress when he retrieved his sidearm. Skin color had nothing to do with it, it was all about the stupid laws and a hard left prosecutor who hated the stand your ground laws. Here’s the link:

            I’m for “stand your ground” laws as well as Castle laws. In Pa, if threatened, I have no requirement to retreat (which was the old laws). I’m not a Spring chicken anymore and two foot surgeries disallow any thought of running away from a threat. The results of those surgeries also negatively affect my ability to fight a younger/stronger man if I come under attack. I’m also responsible for the safety of someone much older and far more disabled. I know the law here. But, I’m not in agreement with the outcomes of those mentioned above in their convictions in Florida. But I do not agree it was racist.

          • You know, something still confuses me. Michael Giles had less of a reason to retreat than George Zimmerman did from what I recall. He had friends who were still lost in the middle of a violent crowd. I’d try to get my friends out too — wouldn’t you? George Zimmerman had no real reason why he needed to follow that boy he shot, as far as I understand it, and the police even told him not to do it.

            But even if the prosecutor was a tree-hugging, frog-rubbing liberal — it was a jury who convicted Michael Giles and a jury who acquitted George Zimmerman. So the jury could have also acquitted Michael Giles, who at least to me seemed more clean-cut and honorable than George Zimmerman, who also tried to scam the court system by lying about money he and his wife had before the trial. He said he was broke, but they had $250,000 from online donations if I remember right.

            The whole thing seems very unbalanced somehow. — at least to me. So you don’t think so?

          • The laws are a mess and the lawmakers are corrupt. This is the result. Want to fix it, eliminate the current lawmakers and laws and start over.

          • I agree the laws are a mess. But still in this case the laws were the same but the results very, very different. How could the law be to blame if it was the same law in both cases, and even in other examples? The only difference I can see is black skin. Maybe I’m dead wrong, but I’m waiting for somebody to come up with some other good explanation.

  4. “But what is justice in a nation built on white supremacy and the destruction of black bodies?”

    Wow! Such balls this author has.

    Yes, the African American community has a problem, however; the problem does not reside within the White community. That’s just an excuse. A narcissistic conundrum. The problem with Black America starts with itself.

    As long as you have people like Al Sharpton as right hand man number one and Hold em up as right man number two, we can see there will not be the change we want to see in the world. MLK did not preach violence. He wanted peace and a united America. For the most part, that change has been significant. From the time Civil Rights was enacted African Americans have had many more opportunities. We see them get university educations. Many have become lawyers, entertainers, doctors, news commentators, state representatives and, now, presidents. What you fail to see is that there is also positive change merely because some have taken their lives into their hands and become success stories. We don’t need people like Sharpton, Holder or Obama wiping out the progress. What a shame. Obama could have made such a difference. Instead, it’s the same old same old from the African American camp. We need uniter’s in this country not dividers.

    • The talk of racism is just a smoke and mirror game played by the Left Wing. It’s left wing government policies that have blacks herded into cities and enslaved to government handouts. They promote abortion and put abortion clinics in black neighborhoods to control the population. Abortion is NOT about women’s freedom, it never has been. Just look at the recent issues that have blacks in an uproar.. NOTHING had anything to do with race, NOTHING. But the “hands up, Don’t shoot ” LIE is still being spewed by idiots who don’t care about facts. More whites are shot by cops each year than blacks, but facts don’t matter if it interferes with the left wing agenda. NO MORE coddling to these morons on the Left. Facts matter, and it’s time to shove them down the throats of those who ignore them.

      • Our problems are not merely Black and White. Our problems reside in the White House with the ‘Divider-in-Chief.’ Did we have problems before 2006?

        At the moment, the Left has been allowed to wreak havoc on this country. This FORCED agenda and this despise for authority has only demolished the progress America has made in bringing up the standards for ALL Americans no matter what the skin color. It is articles such as this one that are damaging to the very fabric of what makes us great. Until this change occurs we will continue to slide backward destroying any progress we have made…. Who will get hurt in all this? African Americans. By the corrosive actions of authority, Blacks are just alienating themselves more from the rest of society.

        • The diversion in this country is caused by the right and “we the people” who post hatred fear and intollerance, That is what you hear 24/7 on Faux News that is what you post on every issues.

          • ….and who are the rioters, looters and violators? The disrespectful and intolerant? What hypocrites you are.

          • Why am I a hypocrite? People have a right to peaceful protest in this country and regretably there are those who use that cover for criminal acts, but you can not label all protestors as looters ands violators because of the actions of a few. There are police who believe in serve and protect and there are those who are racists, bigots, bullies and should not be wearing a badge. Changes need to be made within the police departments so it will build trust between the citizens and the police in all communities, making it safer for everyone.

          • Peaceful! You call the shooting of two police officers peaceful. You call shouting, ‘kill the pigs’ peaceful? You call attacking two police officers in LA peaceful. You call Ferguson riots peaceful. By the way, NYPD is very diverse. Your comment is NUTS!

            Who are the bigots, bullies who commit criminal acts? What a fool you are. What a bigot and a hypocrite who would rather see the criminal element succeed than be protected by a police force abiding by the law. Misconstrued thinking if you ask me. Right always over rules wrong every time. Protesting, not a problem. Violent, intolerant protesting plain flat out WRONG.

          • The Protestors did not shoot two police officers. Your are aware that the Fox Affiliate apologizeds to editing protesters’ chants to say ‘Kill a Cop”? Again because of the actions of a few you want to paint all protestors with the same brush. So becaususe you are so filled with hate and intollerance and bigotry does that make everyone you associate with the same? Cops denyiing people their civlil liberties is flat out wrong and they need to either be retrained or removed from the force.

      • Please provide the data that supports the rehtoric in your post. Do you not believe in a Democracy where there are people with different view points and have the right to express them? Do you not believe that all men and women are created equally regardless of their gender, religion, sexual preference, their color and their political choices? I find it really amazing that a man believes he knows what a woman’s freedom is. You state “More whites are shot by cops each year than blacks,”; does that mean you believe that there are more white criminals than black criminals? Facts do matter, which you need to provide.

        • Granny, I love the elderly and do quite a bit to help fulfill the lives as it comes to an end. I do in fact think all people are equal and should be treated as such, especially under the law. I’m sure that we could agree that the wealthy elite ruling class are treated differently than us not on the wealthy party list. You stated : Do you not believe that all men and women are created equally regardless of their gender, religion, sexual preference, their color and their political choices? For me it ends with political choices. Not that you are not entitled to them, however, when those political choices take from me, be it through excessive taxes or a destruction of natural Rights. I cannot come on your property and take what is yours. That is only fair because it’s yours not mine. At the same time, you cannot come and take what is mine, for the same reasons. When political choices demand that government come and take what is mine, then, those political choices are just as much theft as if you would come in person.
          It is a fact that more white people have been shot and killed by cops than have been blacks., look it up. But, as far as a percentage of population it changes the story and this is where we can agree. The black population, based on statistics, seem to have a larger percentage of criminals per population than do any other race. That also applies to cops shooting blacks, it’s a larger percentage of population. These facts are not refutable, but the cause most certainly is. Many, not all, on the left side of the political spectrum claim racism. I don’t agree with that assessment because it is purely speculation with no basis of fact. When white cops come out and say they kill blacks BECAUSE they are black, versus, they were shot because they posed a physical threat, then I’m all in on the racism claim. But it’s not what it is and it can’t be proven.
          Let’s look at some facts, Mike Brown attacked a cop and ended up dead. A tragedy for sure, but the responsibility lies with Brown. If he didn’t attack a cop, he would be alive today and in jail for strong armed robbery and assault. The Eric Garner case was much different, but still a tragedy. Did I see excessive force, yes, but not for the reason you may think. I can explain if you would like. The “chokehold” was NOT a chokehold at all. I trained USAF cops on this maneuver thousands of times during my time of service. Closing the airway is completely disallowed. As proof, one cannot speak if one can’t breathe. I can see the protests concerning the Garner case, just wish the facts were used rather than media propaganda.
          In closing, we are NOT a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic. A democracy, in it’s purest form, is majority rule. Neither of us want that, and I believe you would agree with me on that.

          • “Not that you are not entitled to them, however, when those political choices take from me, be it
            through excessive taxes or a destruction of natural Rights. I cannot come on your property and take what is yours.” Excessive taxes – well look to the corporation who keep getting tax
            breaks and the wealthy while the burden is than placed on the middle class and poor. How do you expect to pay for the military and wars and the National Security? How do you expect to pay for the building and repairing of roads, tunnels, airports and the rails? As the cost of goods and services increase in those areas, so will the taxes increase to cover it.

            Defense and international security assistance: In 2013, 19 percent of the budget, or $643 billion, paid for defense and security-related international activities.

            Social Security: Another 24 percent of the budget, or $814 billion, paid for Social Security, which provided monthly retirement benefits averaging $1,294 to 37.9 million retired workers in December 2013. Social Security also provided benefits to 2.9 million spouses and children of retired workers, 6.2 million surviving children and
            spouses of deceased workers, and 11 million disabled workers and their eligible dependents in December 2013.

            Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP: Three health insurance programs — Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) — together accounted for 22 percent of the
            budget in 2013, or $772 billion.

            Safety net programs: About 12 percent of the federal budget in 2013, or $398 billion, supported programs that provide aid (other than health insurance or Social Security benefits) to
            individuals and families facing hardship.
            Spending on safety net programs declined in both nominal and real terms between 2012 and 2013 as the economy continued to improve.

            This data comes from the CBO

            Your comment that police shoot more whites than blacks I reference you to:

            In closing we are a form of government by which we elect democratically representatives to go and argue and reason for us, in our two houses of Congress. When we go to war and defend
            our country and try to turn a foreign dictatorship into a Democracy. Thus we are a Democratic Republic.

          • try to turn a foreign dictatorship into a Democracy. Thus we are a Democratic Republic.
            Other countries form of govt is none of our business. We are a Constitutional Republic, look it up.

          • Other countries form of govt is none of our business. – Than why are we involved in wars?
            In a Democracy the majority of “we the people” votes elect our representative to pass laws and work to benefit the country. A Republic is the exact opposite and works in favor of the individual. This is why we elect representatives from each state to represent us. So you don’t believe in Democracy? Isn’t that what our government is? You want to discard what the majority of our citizen want? Democracy to me is a govrnment for and by the people; a government which has a vested interest in the people, a government that protects the rights of all its citizens to vote, be treated equally under the law, in the work place and in society regardless of gender, race, religion or political ideologies and most of all the wealthy do not get a bigger voice than the middle class and the poor.

          • Gary believe it or not I understand that, but we elect our representsatives locally, state and Federal by a democratic process. Why do we use terms “fighting for democracy” “spreading democracy” when we discuss wars? So as with most foundations which the Constitution is, it has to grow and adapt to the changes our Country facs in meeting the demands and goals of the 21st Century at home and abroard. Have a good week and celebrsate the New Year safely.

          • Who exactly gave the government permission to “spread Democracy” in other countries by use of force? Where in the Constitution does it state they have such authority? Was an declaration of war given by Congress to do such things? If it’s OK for us to “spread democracy” then it’s OK for China to “spread Communism” upon us, isn’t it?

          • Why did we fight the Vietnam War, Why did we go to war Iraq – wasn’t it to help the people overthrow their dictators and have open election where they the people could elect their political leaders. What do you call that and it was Congress who gave permission.

          • That’s the easiest question I’ve had all day! Answer: We went into a “police action” in Vietnam because the Government used a huge lie about a second attack on our Navy in the Gulf of Tonkin which never occurred. Using the media as their propaganda tool, they fooled the congress into agreeing to limited military action, which managed to kill almost 60000 Americans and millions of Vietnamese. The whole 2nd Iraq war was also based on a lie, about weapons of mass destruction that apparently didn’t exist (probably because we blew them up in the 1st Gulf war). Again, the compliant media was more than willing to help feed the people the propaganda and get Congressional support for, as far as I’m concerned, an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.

            Add this from the Constitution: “United States” guarantee “to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”.

            Article IV, Section 4.

          • In a word….Vietnam…..Lyndon ‘shithead’ Johnson, a Liberal. He wanted his wifes family to make more money. Didn’t you know they owned Huey?

            Vietnam, I just missed the draft and I had older friends who told me it was a very political war. The Vietcong could shoot out of the rubber trees, but our forces were not allowed to shoot in. How stupid a war was that.

            Nixon may have faced retribution for WaterGate, however; he did one good thing by bringing our troops home.

            I don’t condone war. Never have, never will.

          • Um, I feel silly telling you this, because a smart young fella like you probably already knows — but isn’t the US Constitution about what the government is prohibited from doing? You USAF fellas probably know more about American laws than me, I realize, but this one has me confused.

          • Yes, the very point I’m trying to make to Granny, which seems quite apparent when one reads the whole of the discussion. The Constitution limits the Federal govt to what is written within the Constitution, what is not written is the left to the States and the people. No State or the people (by an election) permitted the “change in government ideology to Democracy from what ever form they had” Rather simple to us young folk, LOL

          • You know, it’s not very nice for young fellas to poke fun at us old-timers. Eyes are the second thing that goes with age, I’m afraid.

            Before my old eyes started going wacky on me, I remember reading the whole US Constitution — twice in fact. And from what I remember (memory is the third thing) the US Constitution establishes federal branches, and then the remainder is pretty much a list of protections for individual citizens, that is, prohibitions on what the government can do. I don’t really remember it talking much about about what the government is allowed to do — just what it is prohibited from doing.

            Oh, that reminds me so I better ask this before my memory gives out on me again: Is the 14th Amendment, where slaves and European immigrant children were granted citizenship merely by being born here, still in force? It has been quite a while since I read it I admit, but it seems to me that a lot of young fellas had issues with this part of the US Constitution, which I admit always confused the dickens out of me.

          • Obviously, either your memory is failing you, if so read the Constitution again. It stats the powers and actions seeded to the Federal Government.
            all else is left to the States. The Bill of Rights, first 10 Amendments, prohibits certain actions of the Government.

          • I think you mean ‘ceded’. I’m not trying to get smart with you.

            But something confuses me: If an amendment like the 15th Amendment follows that pattern of giving the government powers, then why does it instead talk about what the federal and state governments are not allowed to do to citizens instead. It says that “The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied
            or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race,
            color, or previous condition of servitude.”. At least that’s how I remember it.

            True, it also says “The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.” — but that’s limited to enforcing the government prohibition in the first part. This part doesn’t seem to fit your description at all, and from what I remember the Constitution is full of this sort of thing.

          • You are correct. Some times typing errors are made.

            Section 2 of Amendment XV means you southern states can not stop the freed slaves from voting. If you try we are going to womp ya!

            Feds were a little slow. It took over 100 years to enforce it. Some states are still attempting to work around the Amendment.

          • Yes, I understand that the ‘c’ and ‘s’ keys are very close together — almost next to each other even. Don’t fret it.

            I would never try to stop anyone from voting no matter who they are, so you can’t mean me. But I noticed that it took the states quite a long time to enforce it too, yes? In fact, if the federal government didn’t enforce it it might still be widely ignored. I notice that they are trying to prevent minorities from voting again since Obama was elected. I guess that made you people very angry although I’m not sure why. You say you aren’t racist, so that can’t be the reason.

            I remember that these types of things were tried before, always with different excuses but all pretty obvious to everyone. Maybe you young fellas don’t remember it.

          • Nice of you to gloss over my error. By typo I meant I typed sounds like. Had I missed the “c” by a letter it would have been seded not seeded.

            Had the Feds not finally gotten around to enforcing voter rights the States still been preventing people from voting.

            Thanks for the complement. Unless your picture is an old one some of my children are older than you.

          • I told you already that I’m not in the picture. The person who is escorting the racist to prison is the same age as one of my grandsons. I just enjoy the moment that evil people finally realize that they will never, ever see freedom again. I’m guessing you agree since you also oppose racism. I don’t believe that he’s having a very good time in prison. There are a lot of black men there due to racism lingering on in the justice system, and they don’t much like skinheads. I’m sure that you agree that it’s good for them, right?

            I know that it took the federal government to put a big dent in minority voting discrimination. I remember every day of it. But now I see more attempts to block minorities from voting, even though nobody will ever admit it. Well, actually a couple of people pushing those laws did, but they later recanted their story. Very few people are willing to admit to being a racist anymore, I guess. They never really admitted it very often years ago either when it was everywhere. I guess people are worried about how they will be treated if they admit the truth.

          • You know, you never answered my question about the 14th Amendment. Now that you know I’m not black maybe you can be a little less cranky. Could it be that there are some parts of the US Constitution that you really don’t like and you don’t want to talk about it?

          • Yes, I can see that you don’t — and I know the reason why: You only believe in the US Constitution when it happens to agree with your wishes.

          • I understand. It kinda takes the all of the wind out of your previous pro-Constitution arguments. But that’s just my humble opinion, so don’t getting all spastic again. People have a right to their opinions — this is America, after all.

          • I wasn’t quite sure what whodat was talking about – “stats and seeded.” It figures that he would not really understand the Constitution.

  5. How many more Black lives would be lost if everyone just rolled over, cast their eyes down and said, “Yassuh.” I am happy to see them fighting back.

    • Where was the problem before 2006? Where? For decades we had no problems. Get off your emotional bandwagon and see the problem for what it is. It resides within the community itself. No one is tying their hands. No one.

      Why don’t you tell me how White America is suppressing Black America when all anyone has done is try to help African Americans have a better life. Nothing like cutting off your nose to spite your face. This is self-inflicted.

      Why not read Janice McDonald’s reply to this segment below. She is spot on.

      • Are you serious? In a country with a recent history of racist slavery, and rabid right-wing racist criminals committing terrorism and murder every day — you have the gall to post a statement like that?

        • Slavery ended over 150 years ago in the US,get a new excuse! Slavery is still practiced in Africa. Where to get off posting your racist garbage? Are you delusional?

          • There are many people alive today who remember rampant institutionalized racism in the US, so don’t kid yourself. You seem like a really nice respectful fella and I’d really hate to see you mistakenly fall in with these depraved skinhead groups. I’m sure they all start out with honorable intentions, but you know — one mistake leads to another and eventually they cross a line that leads to a very sad future. It’s a crying shame, really.

          • Seriously, you stated, “In a country with a recent history of racist slavery,” I countered with slavery ended 150 years ago. I am old enough to remember the racism of the past. Different issue! Quit using old injustices as an excuse for not improving yourself. Whitey can not fix your problems. If you do not fix your lot whitey will be Master forever. Sure don’t want that.

          • You know, I’ve never heard any minority use the phrase “whitey can’t fix all of your problems”. It seems pretty odd coming from a minority. I’m just saying, so don’t go getting your dander up.

          • Actually only legally. It still exists. Try reading the news about human trafficking. Everyday it is being exposed in the US.

          • So you honestly believe that the effects of racist slavery in the US ended with the Civil War. Get real!
            Subject: Re: comment on Racism: It’s The Law

          • What is your point? Amendment XIII ratified December 6,1865. That Congress did not do what Section 2 authorized does not change the fact that slavery was legally ended. Nor does the the XIII Amendment state freed slaves are to be treated with dignity and equality. That is still a work in progress.

          • I see that you do not get it! “Jim Crow” laws replaced slavery and lasted until the 1960″s. That is the legacy people still fight against, the belief that White makes right and all others must bow down to it.
            Subject: Re: comment on Racism: It’s The Law

          • I get it you do not! All your examples are issues preventing minorities from gaining equality. But the US legally abolished slavery December 6, 1865. Do you not believe the Constitution of the United States of America?

          • Apparently you still do not get it! A law does not change what people do or feel when they know they will not have to pay the price for disobeying it. Like denying people their Constitutional rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Living in fear from the KKK or police is a form of slavery (De facto, De jure). Share cropping was a form of slavery (Economic). Just because chattel slavery was outlawed did not end the others.
            Subject: Re: comment on Racism: It’s The Law

          • KKK – Democratic terrorist organization – 2000 – 5000 left in America.

            Being handed everything does not make a person responsible or respected. It just leaves the door open to idleness. Idle hands are the devils workshop.

            Why don’t you grow into the 20th century. There is no longer slavery. The only slavery there is comes from the government handouts that keeps many ethnics poor and ignorant.

          • By the way, this is the 21th century not the 20th! That probably is why you think the way you do. Like most Cons you are stuck in the past and hate being left behind. Subject: Re: comment on Racism: It’s The Law

          • Excuse me for asking, but do you? You appear to oppose the 14th Amendment even though you seem bashful about just coming out and saying so. Why is it that the US Constitution seems so important to you for some points but not for others?

        • Dude, I was a kid in the 70’s. I grew up with Blacks in school in the city. I know all about the riots. I know how we were taunted and treated. You don’t know squat.

          • Taunted? I remember in the 1950s and 1960s when a lot of black people were murdered just because they were black. And white people too just because they supported civil rights. How can ‘taunting’ even compare to that?

          • It is obvious that you know nothing! Get over yourself and join the new century. Start reading a history book instead of trying to depend on your memory. Your memory sucks big time. Subject: Re: comment on Racism: It’s The Law

        • American Indian, African and Islanos ( that’s Canary Islanders located off the coast of North Africa in the Atlantic for all you ignorant SOB’s who think only your black behind qualifies as minority. So Shut the F up!

          • I am not embarrassed I am proud of my mixed heritage. That is what this Great Nation is all about. What embarrasses and angers me is that the African-American community blame Whites for all their problems. It is not Whitey fault you refuse to become part of of the general society. Many successfully do and the African-American ridicules them as “Uncle Tom. Unfortunately, this is a WASP society, non-WASP need to maneuver through the WASP society to assimilate into the general society.

            The Blacks who have moved into society must stop supporting the idea that it is all Whitey’s fault. Remember your great grandparents were slaves. BS.
            Be truthful help tell the young what they need to do to succeed, remember the past, show whitey he is no better you.

          • Whoa mister, you seem to be mistaken. I’m not black. Maybe that was the source of your crankiness because you seemed to think I was.

            Why on Earth would you be embarrassed and angered over anything that the African American community does? You didn’t claim to be African American, but you became embarrassed when I asked about your heritage. Just doesn’t make sense to me, but no need to get all wound up over it — I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful.

          • Yes, your post indicated you were black. Your picture appears to be of you and your partner. But I am not brazen enough to ask the question. It is not my business.

          • I’ve never indicated I was black in any way, so you are mistaken. And the photo is a person I admire very much escorting a racist to prison for the rest of his life for his racist crimes. But I’m not homosexual as you snidely suggest. I despise racism, I admit. But I don’t hate anyone of any race — I just despise their behavior when it is racist and/or violent.

            You just aren’t a very nice person, mister — there’s no way around it.

          • Maybe I am and just never realized it. If you could copy my racist statements as an example maybe I could learn from it. You’re never to old to learn, despite what some people say.

          • As a vet and a person who was raised to treat all people equal, I find it appalling all of this race baiting BS going on lately. Obama, Holder and Sharpton combined couldn’t hold MLK’s jock strap on their best day. I was born in 1965 and throughout my education, I learned and lived judging people by their character, not the color of their skin. I have been blessed with making friends from all over the world and learn their heritage. The ONE thing that all of them and I agree is of the most importance, is the freedom from government tyranny. Today’s black population aren’t being discriminated against by white people, they are being discriminated against by a political agenda.

            I have shared life threatening wartime with all races and religions. We ALL bleed red. I have been discriminated against during my lifetime. I was a skinny redhead in school. Had to learn to fight and did so. I then protected others who were treated as I once was, because I could. Been that way ever since. What one is one the outside means nothing, it’s what’s in your heart and soul that matters. Live and let live! PEACE, God Bless and Happy New Year to you and your family!

          • I still don’t understand why Obama would race-bait. I don’t think you can blame Obama for anything Al Sharpton may have done to you (which you haven’t yet explained) any more than you can blame people for working with Robert Byrd for years and years.

            Here is a quote that Senator Byrd wrote that seems to contradict your stated beliefs: “I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side … Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds”.

            Do you think that every Congressman, Senator and President who worked with Byrd were also race-baiters?

            BTW, Happy New Year to you.

          • It’s just as nice when you are filling out a form or talking to someone doing a survey online when they ask you what race you are. I find it is an insult, when they ask me if I am Hispanic because I live in California. I always tell the person on the other end. I refuse to answer that question. Aren’t we all considered Americans.

            Honestly, ‘whodat’ that was extremely rude. James was not insulting you. I’m sure he was praising your ethnicity. You people jump the gun too quickly and always assume.

  6. I am a white male that made the mistake of buying a rental home in an all black neighborhood. I was never racist until I experienced it first hand. Between the bullet holes in the walls, the attempted robbery on me(It ended with me pulling my work knife out to scare them away), and the home being constantly trashed, I could not help but view the black community with much disdain.
    I did nothing to provoke them, yet I was victimized almost immediately – likely because of my skin color.
    I can only imagine what the police deal with on a daily basis. Based on my only limited experience, it would be next to impossible to not be “racist” and be suspect of all young black males when you’re dealing with that type of behavior day in and day out.
    My apologies to all of the Blacks that are not like this, but this needs to be openly discussed. There are way too many in the Black community that behave this way…

    • Yes, you should have moved into a mostly white trailer park instead. The neighborhood welcoming committees are just wonderful, and there is never, ever any crime, drugs or violence. In fact, the sun is ALWAYS shining (even at night) and the birds are ALWAYS singing.

        • Maybe, but I don’t think so. I reference trailer parks that are full of mostly white people, yes, because they exist. But like any ghetto — and most trailer parks are just ghettos on wheels — it’s the economic issue that causes the crime, angst and frustration. I never suggested that trailer parks were representative of white people in general, and that’s the key difference between what I said and what Mr Schmo has been saying.

          But I noticed that you very often jump in and write posts that defend Mr Schmo, so I was wondering if you both knew each other. It might help to explain some of your crankiness. I was wondering if your wife was out of town but I suppose it could also be your partner. I’ve never believed in judging people over that kind of thing because it’s their business.

          • Good try, you, I and most members of American society know “trailer park” is a euphemism for white trash. It was a bigoted comment.

          • I’ve noticed over the years that white people use the term ‘trailer trash’ a lot more than black people do. So what does that tell you?

          • You are correct it is none of your business. Some timed Mr. Schmo makes points I agree with even though others disagree with him.

    • bobsog: And I know Black men who have experienced that same or worse BS in White neighborhoods. I know rich, successful Black men accosted by Police for driving their own cars in their own neighborhoods or going into their own houses. What does it all mean? Just keep hating?

      • It boils down to character and the bad reputation they are plagued with. Change that and many people will never think another thought about it.

          • What don’t you get! Jesus Christ. Dense! Character has nothing to do with being racist. It can apply to anyone of any race and any gender….Geez…..

  7. I just read all the posts and thought I had stumbled onto Yahoo’s News site. Are all you Right Wingers nursing hangovers today and just got lost and wandered over here? With the exception of the revered Mr. Villa, you are all a bunch of rotting morons. Please return to your normal hate-filled sites ASAP. You add nothing to the discussion. Really. Please, just go.

  8. If the current state of affairs continues the results might be ugly. Why not recognize the need for reform and do something about it? I suspect that the powers that be feel insulated from the effects of the situation and are planning political moves to blame rowdy elements. They do not want to face the causes of the unruly behavior but would like to benefit from them.

    • How much more reform do you want. It is not our job to coddle. We already provide so much through social programs and taxpayer funding. Everyone in this country is supposed to be ‘equal’ aren’t they?

      Yes, you are correct, if things don’t change this divide can’t last…..

  9. This whole issue of racism today is on purpose and has a goal. the facts do not warrant the response we have been seeing, it’s being fermented like bad wine. The race baiters are easily recognized, start with Obama and Holder, then add Sharpton, a well known guest of Obama. Add them to the militarization of the police in this country. Make the cops out over time to be abusive, especially against blacks, find an event and push for civil unrest. Be patient and wait for cops to start getting killed. At some point and enough dead cops, the government openly SLAMS the very people they are using to do all of this. Why? Compliance. Why? Gun control? Why? Because when there is no crisis to take advantage of for political reasons, make one up! Watch and learn!

    • Yes, we know all about right-wing racist cop killers. There are so many examples that it boggles the mind. You haven’t fooled anyone, BTW.

      • Right wing/left wing, why does it matter? A killer is a killer. What exactly have I said that should be an attempt to “fool” anybody? Or is it that deep down inside you know I’m right?

        • No, I respectfully but firmly disagree. A racist killer is especially depraved — competing with pedophiles on the lowest rungs of the human ladder.

          Now I’m sure that you are a really nice fella and all that, but I think you posted somewhere that you live near the area where the Atlantic City Skinheads operate. Far be it from me to cast aspersions on those who say they’ve served in any US armed forces, but I just want to inform you that quite a few former servicemen have mistakenly fallen in with these racist groups (believing them to be harmless social organizations that help little old ladies across the street and such) and their service doesn’t really faze LEOs and justice officials if they make such a mistake.

          Just a friendly suggestion that you be careful, that’s all I’m saying. The US justice system is really cracking down on that kind of thing, and I’d hate to see an upstanding young fella like you make an innocent mistake.

          • Your certainly mistaken me for someone else, LMAO! I don’t associate with fringe groups of any kind, especially racist’s and fanatic religious groups. I don’t even belong to any political party, as they are just as bad. You said ” but I think you posted somewhere that you live near the area where the Atlantic City Skinheads operate.” I’ve never heard of them nor am I anywhere near Atlantic City (I don’t like either coast, to Liberal for my liking).

            I’m really not that young, but thanks for the compliment. As a rule, knowingly defaming someone also has judicial repercussions so I would refrain from such assumptions in a public forum without absolute proof, which you know you have none. IP addresses have a way of dealing with such actions!

          • Don’t be silly, I never accused you of anything at all. But I did hear somewhere that the ACS likes to operate in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, so I was just wondering. Don’t be so touchy.

          • You know I’m beginning to think that you aren’t a very nice person, and I’d hate to do that. What in the world has you so cranky?

          • It’s the pandering you are doing to the black racist who have us down the river. Your post indicate you are well educated, successful man of color. You know the effort need to succeed yet you keep parroting the excuses used to those unwilling to make the effort to be come successful. Some in all ethnic groups do not have the ability to reach high places. These more then the others need help to all they are capable of being. No excuses for failing.

          • A ‘bigoted honky’? I can only use an old term to respond to that: That’s mighty white of you. You don’t talk like any minority I’ve ever met, so I’ll leave it to you to guess what that means about my belief.

          • Yes, it makes you sound like a cranky white man. That’s just my opinion, so don’t go getting all wound up over it. We are still allowed our opinions in America, you know.

          • It seems to upset you when you get called out on some of the ultra liberal crap you dish out. Get out attempting to help those at the bottom improve their lot.
            I dislike elitist whites, you fit this group, and blacks who think we owe them them a lining equally. I dislike white scum and black scum equally, these are groups you could expend your energy helping. This would be doing more good for your fellow rather philosophizing, patting yourself on the back for the questions you are able to dream up.

          • What ultra liberal crap might that be? So I’m an elitist white, am I? You know something mister, you post a whole lot about things that you know very little. Most of your posts are full of ridiculous mistakes, like that I ever said I was black or that the KKK was formed in the North. Do some research fella — these days it isn’t that hard.

          • Why do they always inject this type of nonsense. Don’t they realize that the KKK was a terrorist leg of the Liberal party.

          • The fact that the KKK were Southern democrats don’t matter to today’s liberal’s. Facts are not important when they feel they have sole authority to play the race card. Hands up, Don’t shoot could be the lie of the year, but facts don’t matter, the ends justify the means to them. sadly, being called a racist has become so diluted it don’t even bother people anymore, as they look at the name caller as another nut case. All the while they ignore true acts of racism because it doesn’t fit their agenda.

          • Of course that is the case. It’s where the Liberal roots are. They seem bent on bringing up history on everything including the ‘old’ slavery issue which was also a Liberal plague, and I might add civil rights to that. Something which many Liberals were against to begin with.

            “Don’t shoot could be the lie of the year.’ It is not noted that Brown was a disrespectful thug. If the policeman had been Black, which I might add would have ended up in the same results, the idiots would have never said a word. They are the race-batiers, racists and bigots. They implore to incite violence not the Conservatives.

            ‘Doesn’t fit our agenda.’ Nope, we simply keep quiet while Liberals make fools out of themselves evoking anarchy. The bad guy becomes good at the hands of a heartless moronic police officer. What an oxymoron.

          • Correct me if I’m mistaken, but wasn’t it Stalin that called his supporters “useful idiots”? Then when he had the power he disarmed the populace and starved his useful idiots to death. I don’t think most of today’s liberal’s are bad people. But history don’t lie, sadly, liberal politicians do!

          • Yes, Stalin wasn’t a very nice man at all. But then what do you have to say about Adolph Hitler? He was as far right as right can be, and was obviously the very worst example of tyranny in history. I don’t think that American liberals can ever be compared to Stalin or the Russian people. It was a different time and a much different country with a long, long history.

            I’m confused because you really seemed to be a pretty smart man, but why would you say that liberal politicians lie? You already admitted that it was lies that got us into the Iraq War, and those weren’t liberal politicians at all. Nixon wasn’t very liberal either. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever noticed much of a difference as far as lying goes. Can you explain more about how liberal politicians lie more than conservative ones?

          • My apologies for the slip. ALL politicians lie! My mind was on another discussion involving Obamacare and all the lies told about that mess. The Gruber character made fools out of a lot of people who believed what Obama was spewing. I never fell for it and knew it would never work as advertised. I learned a great deal when working in a large hospital as well as negotiating union contracts (as a union rep). My mindset was also on a gun control conversation in which a poster put out a link that failed the sniff test of accuracy.

            I guess I’m more anti-left today due to the last six years or so. “you have to pass the bill to see what’s in it” is one of the most moronic statements ever made in the history of politics. This also was the final straw in voting for federal elections. Since then, my research has led down many paths. Both sides of the political spectrum are equally guilty of fraud. I say fraud, because they stole our money and spent it based on lies. So, I’m fed up with both sides. Speaking of which, I also believe the political divide is on purpose to give all of us the ILLUSION of choice in elections. They decide who we get to elect and both sides are playing the same game to stay in power and live a nice wealthy life on the backs of the people.

            There is one small statement in the constitution that really spells out what a mess we have. We should ALL be wanting freedom.

          • Politicians saying stupid things is nothing new, and that statement by Nancy Pelosi has been played up for far more than it’s worth. In reality the health law was heavily debated, so there was no surprise to anyone unless they wanted there to be. Look it up yourself.

            And I know some people who are in the health care field too. Many people, in fact, and one who owns a health care services business. He really likes the health law as he’s made a lot of money because of it.

            I’ve never heard any health insurance company oppose millions of new customers, and many of them supported the law. So maybe I just missed out on the terrible things that you are talking about. Do you have any specifics? I’d like to understand them better.

          • First, any politician who votes for a law, without reading and understanding the entire law, should be fired on the spot. On the healthcare issue. The country was told the prices would go down, they just continued to rise (17% this year). The country was told they could keep their plan if they liked it, that was a lie. people were told they could keep their doctor, that too was a lie in many cases. Initially, some 6 million lost their plans they thought they could keep. Some 7 or 8 million signed up using the exchanges (when they worked) (so the Feds say). 1.5 million people left the workforce with double that underemployed, which means that it’s likely they are not insured. Prior to Obama’s election, the healthcare debate was surrounded by a number, 48 million (or some number like that) of uninsured. Signups under Obamacare barely made up for those that lost their plans, so what happened to those 48 million that were supposed to get covered? OOPS, another LIE!

          • That’s odd, because I would think that people losing their jobs now have a much better chance to get health insurance, and the government will even help financially if they are too poor. Do you have any examples of people losing their jobs and not being able to get health insurance recently? I’d like to understand your point better.

            I’ve been around a long time, and I know what has been happening to health insurance for years. None of what you seem to blame the new law for is anything new. And I agree that health insurance costs aren’t actually dropping, but from what I understand they are rising slower than ever before. Do you have any references I can look at that show health insurance costs are rising any faster now than before the law?

            You already admitted that you know all politicians lie, and making promises that don’t exactly pan out are really nothing new. That’s politics and always has been. Why is it only now suddenly a horrible lie to make a promise that didn’t pan out exactly as stated, and what are you going to say if the new health law actually does work? Programs like this always take time to work, and this one has just really gone into force — actually not until 2015. So aren’t you killing the chicken before it even hatches, so to speak?

          • You already admitted that you know all politicians lie, and making promises that don’t exactly pan out are really nothing new. That’s politics and always has been.

            I love how you put this, because it’s so true. But now let’s ask an even more important question. Why tolerate those who are dishonest? WE all know that politicians are not telling the truth to us, yet people still go to the polls and cast a vote for a dishonest politician to represent them. I will be blunt, but nothing personal towards you. How long are people going to be f-ing stupid and allow this to continue? Why would any partially educated person vote for someone who is dishonest? Is a dishonest government any better than an Aryan Nation skinhead racist? Why are we arguing over false claims of racism when we have a dishonest government who are NOT doing anything for the peoples benefit? If they lied about Obamacare, how is it even fathomable that it is anything but bad? Who does Obamacare really benefit (you already said it I think)?

            Let’s talk about these questions instead of the BS they want us to talk about. 🙂

          • I don’t really think that making over-inflated promises really compares with skinhead activity. Big promises have become part of the political game the world over, and I don’t think there’s ever been a politician on the ballot anywhere who didn’t lie about something. So people have never yet had the choice. Maybe it’s because all people lie about something. But what about promises that just don’t pan out? Are those lies too?

            Personally it has always irked me that lying in front of Congress is a felony, yet all of Congress lies to the American people — who are their bosses. I think that a Congressman (or woman) caught purposely lying to the American public should also be charged with a felony.

          • They should be charged with a crime, but won’t be. yet, you and most people who post here will go vote in 2016 for someone you know is dishonest and will do everything he/she can to make sure you get to pay them more money. And you’ll smile when your pick of a lying thief wins. Strange way to think your free and have a choice on election day.

          • I don’t remember ever smiling much at any politician. But what are you saying, that Americans shouldn’t vote? That would seem to defeat whatever control we do have over the politicians. The ability to vote is the only thing that keeps them from getting wildly out of line like they do in a lot of other countries.

          • I do not propose voting in local elections and think that it is very important to do so. It’s much easier to hold local politicians accountable. I have also looked into many differing views when it comes to the Federal government. Once the vote is over, it’s near impossible to hold them accountable (and even the next election can fail to do so). We both agree that these people all lie. Voting legitimizes them and basically gives them permission to continue to lie. That makes little sense. I’ve raised three kids, a boy and two girls. I asked myself if I would let one of them date one of my children, if so, then it’s a good vote, if not, no way would I vote for them. The problem I have come across, probably since the Clinton administration, is I wouldn’t vote for any of the bums that have held Federal office.

            Your thought that we have some control is a pipe dream. We have zero control because the voters have legitimized them and what they do. If people complain, they will just say that the voters knew what they were getting, tough banana’s.

            It’s not a good idea at all to envision or promote a bloody revolution, as they rarely ever work, not to mention they are bloody. Throw that out. Next, just wait until it collapses under it’s own weight. That could take a few generations but is the most likely way to go. Succession has been mentioned by a few States, like Texas. That didn’t work so well back in the 1800’s, doubt it will work any better today.

            That leaves maybe one or two ways. One, stop voting and teach people that it legitimizes their corruption. By not voting (as many did in the last election) it takes away their legitimacy and authority to rule goes with it. This likely won’t work because far too many are brainwashed into believing they have a voice and a choice, they have neither.

            That leaves one possible idea that I haven’t read about yet. The States, rather than succeed, could pass a Constitutional Amendment dissolving the Federal govt, making the needed changes to the wording of the Constitution that removes their ability to make and enforce law (that should be a State and local issue) and limit them to National Security, Interstate highway maintenance, Veterans affairs including better care for vets and Social Security (as it was originally designed, not the joke it is today). National Parks and monuments can be thrown in too, as this is not an inclusive list. Trade agreements and treaties can be added too, but ALL decisions must be approved by the people’s vote.

            This could get lengthy, but it should give you an idea of what I feel should be done (also a pipe dream, LOL)

          • LOL. Yes, I agree that voting can be similar to dating, because very often the same thing happens in the end.

            But I don’t think that by stopping the vote we would do anything other than capitulate to the whims of extremists. People would quickly see the new relative power of those who still vote, and large corporations especially would make short work of getting all manner of legislation passed to both give themselves an economic advantage and ensure that passing the next set of laws would be even easier for them.

            I agree that armed insurrection is extremely unlikely to ever be successful, and even if it was ever so how would the results ever justify the costs? In 1776 the fight was between colonies and a government that was very far away for those times. This will never be the case again, and without a lot of luck those people would have all been sent to the gallows and remembered as traitors and criminals. Also, what would be the argument against the next armed insurrection to replace whatever the first one created? Violence is usually self-perpetuating. More violence would have to be used to try to control opposing insurrections.

            I like the idea of putting policy issues directly on the ballot. Many states do this and it’s much closer to real democracy. But there is a danger to this too, so somehow we need to protect the minority from votes that discriminate against minority viewpoints to excess. An example of this is gay marriage. I never saw any reason to believe that gay people getting married ever infringed on anyone else, so why should their marriage be outlawed by a majority? So I guess it would be a strong set of individual Constitutional protections mixed with ballot initiatives.

          • I bring up how horrible our representatives are (all of them) an many sites, both left leaning and right leaning, when I have the time to do so. It never fails that so many agree with much of what I say, but no one is willing to step up and do anything to change it. All I get is “we have to vote them out”. Well, that isn’t working because it’s been the same for decades, regardless of which party is “in control”. Harry Reid will leave 418 bills passed by the House of Representatives on his desk, yet the party of “NO” is the Republicans according to the Left wing media and most who are on the left of the faux political spectrum. I would bet that most on the left did not know that about Harry Reid.

            There are no easy answers because the facts are so hard to come by. If the politicians aren’t lying, the media is right behind them spewing the same garbage. As a Vet and a fairly reasonable person, if people don’t wake up and understand that they are voting for their own detriment, then our society will continue to rot away all the while those on the left and right piss and moan about who is right.

            Real changes require courage. It don’t need to be violent (that’s the lazy way), but smart people who can see and hear the problem need to step up and say ‘NO MORE”. Until then, the rotting will continue.

          • That’s odd, because I would think that people losing their jobs now have a much better chance to get health insurance, and the government will even help financially if they are too poor.

            Don’t believe that for one minute! When folks were laid off, the insurance available was insanely expensive. The cost of a family plan offered by the government ate up almost 80
            % of unemployment benefits. Now, I’m not sure, but maybe you should get on the government website and find out what it costs when your income is half of what it once was.

            I will not get anywhere near the Governments site when it comes to health insurance, but you certainly could answer many of your questions be giving it a go and passing on the results. True story, I know a lawyer on another blog I frequent who claimed he got a great deal from the government site. He later slipped and said his law firm offers the insurance, which made him ineligible to get insurance through the government site. I called him out and he confessed (lawyers really shouldn’t be politicians).

          • LOL — I don’t think looking at a government web site will turn you into a wild-eyed liberal like so many here seem to believe!

            But I personally know a couple of people who ended up in the situation you describe and they were able to get insurance without any problems. Maybe not the best insurance in the world, but at least they wouldn’t have to face financial devastation if somebody in their family faced a serious illness or accident. I don’t know of anyone yet who couldn’t find insurance. I’ve heard a lot of people say it online, but I never heard anyone say it where I knew them and could verify it wasn’t just politics. Maybe you know of some real people that you could tell me about.

          • LMAO! I don’t need Obamacare! I have 100% coverage from the VA due to my time in the Middle East during Desert Storm. I’m sure you have heard of the issues with the VA in the last few years. I’m lucky, I have had very good healthcare from the VA, as does my father, whom I’m the caretaker of. Not everyone in the system has been so lucky, as has been reported in the media.

            I, prior to getting involved with the VA, have never known a person who complained about not being able to get health insurance, regardless of age or pre existing conditions. At the time, I lived in Youngstown Ohio. Ohio forbids insurance companies from denying insurance due to pre existing conditions, as it should be. This falls in line with how politicians lie to enact legislation. I will be honest and say Obamacare has nothing to do with what they claimed, covering the 48 million uncovered people as they claimed existed.

            Here’s a test for you! can you find any proof that those 48 million uncovered people are now covered? Good luck my friend, you are about to embark in an exercise in futility!

          • Thanks, but I’m not going to embark on any test where I asked you for your proof first. That would be asking me to disprove something that you haven’t even offered any proof for yet. I’m not saying that I disbelieve you, but disproving a nonexistent fact would be a waste of time because that’s impossible. If you want to post some evidence here then I will look at it and see if it agrees with what I’ve seen and read.

          • Probably for the best, since they are not insured and there is no information that states such. If anything, that statistics put out by the HHH suggests the number (48 million) may be even higher today. That isn’t important, because we have both agreed that politicians are basically dishonest anyway. The link provided, the only one I have found today of what Dr, Gruber has said about the subject of the 48 million is quite telling.

            It’s a repost from The Daily Caller, what ever they are. I rarely link to FOX, because I don’t trust them any further than the rest of the MSM. But since it’s a repost, I guess it will have to due for now.

          • Thank you for providing some information. I looked at the article and I didn’t really see anything new yet, but I’ll keep looking when I get the chance. This Mr Gruber obviously said something stupid, which is nothing new either in all the years I’ve been around.

            I told you before that I have a friend who runs a health services company. What he told me was that it’s going to take some time to see exactly how things work out because it’s a very big change. But what sticks out in my mind is that he believes that it’s a simple matter of supply and demand. Because everyone is going to be in the health insurance market, the healthier people will help subsidize the unhealthy or unlucky ones who suffer some debility. The problem for healthy people is that they never know when that truck will broadside them or they will catch a severe illness, and when that happens and they vault from healthy to unhealthy it’s too late. If they can’t afford the medical bills (who can?) then we all end up paying anyway.

            I’ve heard a lot of arguments about rising costs, but like I said before they don’t seem to be going up any faster than before the new law. In fact, I think it’s a lot less of an increase. But you are correct that it hasn’t gone down. On the other hand the whole law hasn’t really gone into full force yet. And the article you provided talked about how the lower rate of increase isn’t due to the new law. That sounds like the arguments I hear that the gas prices today aren’t Obama’s doing. Who cares? A good thing is a good thing and can’t be turned into a bad thing by claiming it’s not a particular person’s doing. It’s still a good thing to me. I think we need to wait a year or two.

          • Gruber is a narcissist who wants all the attention he can get. Over the years of what are now becoming a historic video admission of everything he knew about the law that many on the Left fell for and which he admitted to lying as a way to get the left to accept the law. Narcissists rarely lie, because it is in their nature to speak truthfully in places they feel comfortable in. Gruber is telling the truth, unfortunately. No one on the Left wants to hear it, but it’s all out there now for all to hear. The stats back up his words. Gruber, Obama, Pelosi Reid and the rest of the sheep in the Democrat Congress passed a law that was sold to the public on lies, period. It is now undisputable.

            The law will not help to insure the 48 million that were claimed to be uninsured in 08. They were uninsured because it was unaffordable. For some insane reason, they thought that mandating by law that everyone must buy this product it would magically fix the problem. That is the mindset of socialists and communists. The problem is that we here in America don’t play that game and the law has failed and will continue to fail.

            As to why I know that the two sides of the political spectrum are really on the same side comes from the Right side when they continue to claim they need to fix it, not eliminate it. In other words, both sides are going to end up with socialized medicine (government controlled) as the end result. As Gruber said, the only way to control costs is to deny healthcare or make the sick pay the whole bill. This is the future of healthcare in America, and if you are left leaning you should be exited and happy, but I doubt you are because I have exposed the truth about what government run healthcare will actually be. The “death panel” stuff back in 08 is 100% true and one of the left’s own have admitted it. Gruber is not lying, you should listen to every video of him you can.

          • My Group health insurance is being dropped as of 12/31/2014. As most companies are doing the company from which I retired is dropping retirees from the group. My experience is with Medicare wraparound plans. Only individual plans are offered family plans do not exist. We now have 2 medical plans.
            Because I was coming directly out of a qualifying plan there are no preexisting condition exclusions. That is a plus, 4 months ago I had my 1st hopefully last heart attack. Total cost of hospital stay including doctors over $83,000. My cost about $150.

            Ten plans are available from multiple insurers.cost of plans run from $23 a month to over $600. Yes any one can get insurance depends You may be able to afford what you need.

            I ran numbers on the heart attack with $23 plan out of pocket $82,000 against plan I chose $211 a month out of pocket max $2,100

          • In addition, prior to Obama being elected, health insurance premiums would raise about 7% annually. This was a big issue concerning affordability when I was a union rep dealing with this very issue. The 7% was a National average. Now, well, last year in some places it rose over 50%. Not exactly affordable if you ask me. But this also explains why those 48 million uninsured are not spoken of, because the number is likely over 50 million today.

          • That’s interesting stuff. Since you are in the health care field I’m guessing that you have ready access to statistical or other official publications of health organizations and companies. Can you copy some of them here? I’m interested in seeing them.

          • I’m not working at a hospital these days. I work with the elderly in there homes, paid through lottery profits the State gets. Pa ha a great system for the elderly, which keeps them independent and at their own homes for much longer than would otherwise be possible.

            When I was part of the contract negotiating team of the Teamsters local 377 between 2001 and 2010, part of the contract issue was of course the healthcare benefits. The hospital was “self insured” and no outside insurance companies were involved. Generally, preparing for negotiations meant getting all the necessary numbers available to use as a negotiating tool. The goal, as you would imagine, would be to get the best plan for the best price. This occurred every 3 years. During this time, the average increase in healthcare premiums nationwide was around 7%. My last contract negotiation was 2009, before Obamacare was passed. At that time, 7% was still that national average (you can do the search on this if you chose, I will go with what I recall as someone else on the team provided this info).

            In the end, by agreeing to use their medical facilities and doctors, we managed to only get an overall increase of 3% over 3 years (good for our members versus regular insurance companies). WE did agree to a 5.00 copay on doctor visits and a 15 dollar copay on ER visits. Overall, my cost was 50 bucks a month for the premium (family) and no copays as long as I used their facilities. A sweet deal for all 750 folks that would vote on it. We also got a .25 an hour raise for all plus and up adjustment for inflation each year. The 3 lowest paid jobs got a 50 cent an hour raise the first year, then the same as everyone else.

            It was voted on and passed easily, with few complaints. These negotiations were not easy, you should try them one day if you get the chance. Today, I’m neither pro or anti union. Let the workers decide. I will say that I think the public unions screwed themselves over time with retirement benefits that will never get paid. That’s another subject for another time.

          • Well I’ve never been a contract negotiator of any type, so it’s not likely to happen now. But from what I understand the average premium increase for employer sponsored plans, which is the majority, was 4% in both 2013 and 2014. Like I said before, I’ve seen health insurance premiums and health care costs in general increase dramatically over the years. I don’t see anything new after the health law was passed, and you must know that it’s not even fully implemented until 2015. Don’t you expect major changes like this to take time? What do you think of the similar law that Mitt Romney signed in Massachusetts?

          • Thank you for being a union rep! I have never met a union rep who did not fight for equal pay, treatment and opportunity for all members black white or any other race. I have met some reps who do not like people of a difference race. Does that make them a racist? Don’t think so. It makes them a damn good person working for equal treatment for all.

          • I was also a steward, many times the only one who could represent those who found themselves in trouble. This also allowed me to be a mentor to many younger workers, many of whom were black. This occurred in Youngstown Ohio, St Elizabeth Health Center if you want to verify things. I guess I had a 80% success rate in keeping people at work and getting them to stay out of trouble. I can still walk the halls and get hand shakes and hugs from those I worked with and helped out. Color was never an issue, it’s all about character, and that’s what I tried to teach those I worked with.

            It became somewhat of an issue when I went to visit a patient who had surgery the day before. The nurse manager was coming out of her office as I was walking past, got a angry look on her face and asked” What did I do wrong now?” . I smiled and told her I was just there to visit a patient, which I’m positive is getting the best care possible. After that, the nurse manager became one of the best managers at the hospital and worked with me and others to make a better workplace. When I resigned and moved to Pa, things were pretty good as far as the relationship between management and the workers! People still tell me how much better it is today compared to the early 2000s!

          • I have a rule. Treat all people as you would like to be treated. I am honest, I don’t like or support the liberal agenda. I don’t support Obama or his policies. I don’t support the republicans any more than I support Obama. The whole government and it’s propaganda machine known as the main stream media is lying to all of us on a daily basis. Frankly, I don’t need them, you don’t need them either. They need us to continue to screw all of us. Yet, everyone knows they are dishonest, but continue to play their game by their rules. What does that make the people?

          • Well if so you seem to forget it quite often, because you appear very cranky to people who aren’t being smart with you.

          • Having studied the nazis considerably, I feel that anyone who throws out the words nazi and hitler to describe a person, who is living today, owes the victims of the holocaust an apology. That is so disrespectful to those who lived in the terror.

          • Perhaps you are right, but I hope that people never stop talking about the evils of the Nazis. It’s important that we constantly remind ourselves what some people are capable of.

          • You don’t know much about history. Liberals were never against civil rights. It was the southern Democrats only. In fact, Republicans used that racism to try to gain political power in the 1960s. It was exactly Democratic support for civil right (from the Northern Democrats) that drove them out of the Democratic Party. I don’t believe that Abraham Lincoln would be a Republican these days.

            The Democratic Party was started by what they call ‘Jacksonian’ ideologues. These people were indeed racist, and Andrew Jackson was a very racist President. In fact, it was opponents of Jackson who were responsible for the Democratic mascot. His opponents called him a ‘jackass’, and he embraced the symbol. It later became popular when it appeared in some widely circulated cartoons and eventually became the symbol of the Democratic Party, which Jackson helped start.

            But racists — even in the Democratic Party — never supported civil rights, and neither did racist Republicans. It caused a big reorganization where most racists started voting Republican. You need to study up on history some more, because you have it all really skewed off in a direction that never happened.

          • Except that the KKK wasn’t southern Democrats at all. The KKK was about the South versus the North, and just as many Republicans were members of the KKK as Democrats from what I know. It had to do with losing a racist way of life and grudges that are now centuries old. There were a lot of racists in the Democrat Party before federal civil rights were seriously enforced in the early 1960s. I remember it very well, and that’s when a lot of people with racist beliefs started leaving the Democrat Party. Where did they all go? A lot of them died off, but what’s left of them went the only place that was available for them to go: The Republican Party.

            And being called a racist does indeed bother people, that’s why very few admit to being one. It’s different posting online, but if you go out into public and do something racist these days very often bad things happen to you. I’ve seen the change with my own eyes over time, and it’s very different these day. Very different.

          • Your history of the South is a little fuzzy. Reconstruction forced on the South by Republicans pushed conservative Southerners to the Democrats. What Republican KKK members are you talking about? No good Southerner would admit to being Republican. As conservative as rural Southerners were and still are they remained Democrats until LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act in the sixties. He lost the South.

          • You see, once again you talk about something without doing any research. A lot of Northern Republicans moved to the South during Reconstruction, and there was a lot of abuse towards the southern people brought with them. But the Northern Democrats also opposed slavery and racial segregation and supported civil rights. Once the Northern Democrats and Republicans passed the Civil Rights Act, that’s when a lot of Southerners started leaving the Democratic Party, as you said.

            So the way you say it you seem to think that all Southerners are racists. That’s not correct and never has been, but there were a lot of people who supported slavery because that’s how they made their living. Without slavery quite a few of those big Southern plantation mansions would have never been built, and a lot of Southern families who are still wealthy to this day would probably not be. But it wasn’t just confined to the South either, as I said. It was just concentrated there.

            So I guess you are saying that you are a racist, since you claim not to know anyone who isn’t a racist. I thought you said otherwise earlier. I hope that you aren’t saying that you are the only person you know who isn’t a racist, because that would be silly.

          • You are reading a lot into my post. It was a

            Republican administration and Congress that instituted Reconstruction. I believe Carpetbagger is the derogatory term used for those Yankee Republicans. Northern Democrats were in the South it was the the Carpetbagger Republicans. So the conservative Southerners became Democrats. You post does not add any substance to my statement only fluff. Thanks for adding some details.

            Always stated all humans have racist tendencies only the elitist liberals believe they are not because they support blacks.

          • When the Civil Rights Act was signed into law by a Democrat, President Lyndon Johnson, the South went Republican and stayed that way.

          • Yes, that’s right. And there was a lot of talk about being a traitor to his own race and even assassination. A lot of very bad things happened around that time, and if it happened in the South and there where white people involved they were rarely arrested or convicted of anything. But if they were black — hoo boy it was much different.

            Things like that don’t happen anywhere near as much today, but they still happen. The difference is that often even white people get convicted and sent to jail. But there are still problems with that even, as I’ve pointed out here to other people.

          • Not at all. The KKK was a southern state movement left over from the Civil War. It was started by Civil War soldiers. Even many years later it was mostly found in the South. Still is, in fact. And the civil rights movement was pushed by both liberals and conservatives from the northern states. Civil rights was never about the Republican Party even if I’ve heard people say it here. It was about North versus South, left over from the Civil War. You should look it up because it makes you appear to lack much knowledge on the whole subject.

          • JB, I may suggest you read up on the history of the KKK. But equally important is the thinking of the Democrats back in the 60s. From Democrat President LBJ (from his biography “Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963… “These Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference… I’ll have them ni….rs voting Democratic for the next two hundred years”.

            Whether or not the quote is fact or not, LBJ is responsible for the “Great Society” social programs, which we now know as welfare. His quote was correct as he ensured that blacks would become slave to the Democrats for decades to come. I believe just this year in Louisiana that Dem voters became involved in a Republican primary when one of the candidates stated that the other wanted to take their welfare. The claimant won easily because of this lie (yes, republicans lie too).

            LBJ was right. But it also helps explain the history of the Democrat party and there claims of racism today. LBJ was from Texas. 61 years later, blacks are still voting Democrat in every major city in the country and if a Republican would attempt to run against them, it’s easy to figure out what the democrats will say.

          • Black people don’t always vote Democrat, so your explanation seems to miss that. Also, I’ve read a very great deal about the KKK, and I was around in 1960s to see the whole thing come to a boiling point — again. A lot of very nasty things happened.

            But I know and have talked with thousands of black people in my life, and none of them feel like any government program is enslaving them. People who have a real history of being enslaved know the difference. It sort of seems to me that this slavery talk is just hyperbole, because nobody really believes that social programs are anything like real slavery. For one thing, a person has to seek out government assistance — it’s never forced on them. And there are more white people using government assistance than black people. Are they slaves too? None of them seem to think so, and if they did they could just ask the government to stop any services. People are smart enough to know when they are being enslaved.

          • No, I believe you are mistaken. The first KKK group was formed right after the Civil War in Tennessee. It was started by former Confederate soldiers.

            You really need to do a better job of researching your ‘facts’ before you post out here. Posting without doing at least some research really wastes people’s time, and that’s an easy fact to find if you look.

          • It was started by an ex Confederate General, name I do not recall. You are probably correct on state, might be Kentucky do not recall. I remember from a college history class that Indiana had the most KKKer of any state. That fact stuck in my head because Indiana was not a slave State.

          • Maybe it was true many years later. I looked it up and it was started in Pulaski Tennessee in 1866. Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest was the first Grand Wizard.

          • Thanks for the info. Could not remember the General’s name. And a brain fart got me confused on where the KKK started.

      • Seriously, why don’t you stop being a victim and start taking responsibility for your ideology and the people you seek to protect.

        Charles Payne is a Black man I truly respect and admire. He can talk the talk because he has walked the walk. He grew up in Harlem and I can find many success stories just like his. This is what it takes for African Americans to become successful. They don’t need your self-righteous pity pot that only demeans their usefulness. It is unfair to make humans slaves to a regime….. You need to read this if you want African American’s to succeed. It is truly up to them and it is important for them to have good role models rather than thugs and the government system to look up to.

        • Excuse me for asking, but how will black people ever have a good role model when so many people try to disparage the very first black American President? Doesn’t that seem to contradict your statement, since you appear to bitterly hate President Obama and say bad things about him in most of your posts? I mean, wouldn’t becoming President of the United States seem like a very good role model for black people?

          • Just because he is the first Black President does not automatically make him a good role model. Or perhaps since it is the Republicans who are disparaging to him will turn him into a great role model.
            I voted for Obama twice but have lost faith.

            JFK was the first Catholic President but he certainly not a good role model for Catholics.

          • Really? JFK wasn’t a good role model for Catholics? He is one of the most beloved Presidents in US history — and not just by Catholics. How can becoming the number one executive official in the greatest country on Earth not be worthy of respect and an aspiration to other people?

            I must say that I’ve never seen this level of disrespect for any President — and I’ve seen a lot of them. Even Nixon wasn’t disparaged like this and he could have been the first American President sent to prison if he wasn’t pardoned. That’s just my opinion, true, but I stand by it.

          • Yes, and sometimes the most important thing isn’t what people say — it’s what they don’t say. This Mr Schmo has never really had a good explanation for why it is that becoming President of The United States shouldn’t be a good role model for black people.

          • Not the Black, it’s his policies. We have been trying to knock that into your heads for some time now, but you are bent on stirring up trouble.

          • Maybe the fact that you are trying to ‘knock it into’ peoples heads shows your problem. People don’t much like that sort of thing in case you didn’t already know. But I think you already know.

            I haven’t really seen any policies by this President that would make people so angry, so maybe you can point them out. The type of policies that should make people angry are the same type that cause thousands of American youngsters to lose their lives in foreign countries, yet I don’t see you out here complaining about that.

            No matter what policies a President puts forth, he is still elected the leader of this country by real Americans. That fact should bring a measure of respect, since he was the choice of millions of Americans, so it’s like you are disrespecting million of Americans by proxy. It would seem like you are a bad role model for white people.

    • You know, you’re a smart young fella so I feel silly asking you this — but why would Obama, whose family is half white and half black, want to race-bait? Wouldn’t that be a little silly for him to do? Just wondering.

      • Obama is a black community organizer. The fact his mother was white has nothing to do with his thinking. To claim otherwise is simply silly. I judge on character and actions, not skin color or the skin color of ones parents.

        • You know, Obama was raised by his white grandparents who he obviously loved very much. Why would he race-bait? Maybe my definition of race-baiting is old school, so perhaps you can give me some examples.

          • Al Sharpton. Do I really need to say more? Sharpton is advising Obama, that’s undisputable. Sharpton is not a race baiter, he is a race pimp and a cop hater. His legacy is well known, to include him being an FBI informant, which has helped him stay out of jail for tax evasion to the tune of about 4 million bucks. You can look it up.

          • So he’s a cop hater but also an informant for the cops? OK, but it seems odd. I’ve seen him a couple times on TV, and once talking about the police officers that got shot in Brooklyn. He didn’t really sound like a cop hater then but maybe I just didn’t watch him long enough. Can you give me an example of where he expressed hate for cops?

          • Not odd at all. I’ll let you look into his history at your leisure, too much history for this small space. It all goes back to his cocaine issues in his younger days, look it up when you have some free time. I’m cool with the protests, that’s what this Nation is all about. Makes for good TV too, LOL. BUT, it’s becoming an anti-capitalist movement as well. It’s been hijacked.

          • OK, I’ll look it up. But if you get any free time maybe you could post just one good example since you seem to already know where to find them. I don’t disbelieve you, but I’m just interested in seeing it.

          • I did a little research today into Mr Sharpton, and it jogged my memory about a couple of things. First, there was that case with that teenage girl many years ago, and I remember that being a big debacle, but I never knew that he was ordered to pay restitution and refused. Second, I also vaguely remember some statements he made against Mormons and Jews, and that may not be technically racists since it’s religious in nature, but it certainly isn’t very decent behavior at all.

            But I’m confused. What I mostly found interesting was that Mr Sharpton supposedly was an informant for the FBI to help stop the 1980s crack epidemic in inner city neighborhoods, which is to say ghettos. This would seem to be exactly the thing that Mr Schmo and others out here keep saying black people should do, but for some reason when they actually do it they don’t seem to like it much either.

            But the more interesting one is where he seems to have worked with the government against Mafia figures in the Gambino family, and helped send some of them to prison from what I can tell. This makes me remember something that I personally experienced years ago. I remember driving through NJ, an stopping at one of those interstate rest stops. As I was walking out a almost ran into a big black man and several big bodyguards. It was Mr Sharpton, and I remember thinking to myself how much you must have to piss people off to need big bodyguards like that at a rest area. I can only imagine that they must have stood outside of the stall if Mr Sharpton needed to use that, and it just struck me as funny. That was many years ago when Mr Sharpton was much bigger.

            But nobody out here has ever yet answered why Obama working with Mr Sharpton would make Obama a race-baiter. Like I said, many Presidents and other government leaders have worked with Senator Byrd over the years and he was clearly a racist — even a KKK member. How is this different?

          • It’s rather simple, but also perception, and that varies from person to person. Obama should not get involved in issues that are primarily local issues. The stupid cops that arrested the black professor that led to a “beer summit”. If he had a son it would look like Trayvon comment, long before the trial started and now the “stay the course” comment to the protesters in Ferguson prior to the release of the Grand jury decision. These, in my opinion, are not what a President should be doing or saying. He is “supposed” to be representing the entire nation. He is not when he makes comments of that nature. When he asks Sharpton for advice on race relations, he may as well ask Malcolm X. Sharpton is a lying racist pig who would cease to be relevant if not for all this made up racist crap. But I digress, because it seems that anyone who does not agree with Obama’s agenda is labeled a racist. Obama, Holder, Jackson, Sharpton and ANYONE who cries racism because of political disagreement are all guilty of race baiting. Hence, I coined the term race pimps during the Trayvon Martin issue. so, in short, they are all race pimps and deserve the moniker. I wasn’t raised to treat people differently than I would want them to treat me. I think it’s fair to say that I can see a race pimp when I see one.

          • Well, you are entitled to your opinion on Mr Sharpton and President Obama, this is America after all. But the one thing you haven’t addressed is the fact that racism still exists. You say you oppose it, yet you seem to also say in the next breath that anyone who fights against it publicly is a ‘race pimp’. How would somebody oppose racism publicly without being a ‘race pimp’? You must know at least one such person, right? Who would that be?

            So are you claiming that racism doesn’t exist? If so, when did it disappear? And why are there thousands and thousands of racist organizations and thousands of racist crimes happening on any given day? It confuses me when I hear so many people say that racism doesn’t exist, because I still see it every day. Now it’s just more like drug dealing — people try to do it without getting caught doing it, and yet it still happens all the time.

          • Is it possible to actually have a respectful discussion on racism in America? Let’s try. Yes, racism still exists and always will. But, when I read reports of young black’s attacking white people “for Trayvon” or ‘for Mike” it is rarely spoken of in the Main Stream Media. Basically, racism AGAINST whites is mostly ignored because it don’t fit the agenda of the left. How many links of such stories would it take to prove this? I’m sure I can find close to 100 since Obama took office.

            In retrospect, do some white people discriminate against blacks, absolutely. But in both cases, it’s only a minority of idiots that do such things. That’s a local legal issue.

            Speaking on the welfare issue. Let one prominate black stand up and say welfare should end and see what happens. If JP Morgan is ever hacked and all the SNAP cards stop working for more than a few days, cities will burn. There was a recent stoppage in about 10 States over the summer, go back and review those events, it wasn’t pretty.

            Racism and discrimination will always exist on this planet, it is unstoppable. The false claims by many, mostly on the Left, dilutes real racism, regardless of who discriminates against who. I just hope your not one who claims that only white people are racist, that would be a shame.

          • Yes, and white trailer parks would burn too. It doesn’t really have anything to do with race as there are far more white people receiving government assistance than black people. And those people are one grocery store trip away from having their children starve, so what would you expect? Some black politicians have stood up against public assistance, and I don’t remember anything unusual happening.

            You know, I remember racial violence happening a lot long before Obama was elected. And I also agree that there are black racists too. In the 1990s it was all over the news when Reginald Denny was pulled out of his truck and attacked in LA. But not much reporting on the fact that the attackers were arrested and sent to prison with no fuss. Contrast that with the beating of Rodney King, where the attackers were acquitted for a videotaped attack that was equally vicious and obvious. That’s the type of thing that causes unrest, and Obama had nothing to do with it at all.

            There must be one person in this whole country who publicly opposes racism yet isn’t a ‘race pimp’ in your eyes. Who would that be?

          • You are correct, there are many white people, more so than blacks on the welfare roles. For the record, I don’t have a problem with helping people out when they fall on bad times. But that help should have a time limit and welfare has become a lifestyle for far too many, regardless of skin color. Much of this I blame on the Government, not the people, as benefits are worth more than going to work for 10 bucks an hour in many places.

            Racial violence is and always will be a problem, but like I said, they are the minority that act in this manner and should be dealt with by the law. Myself, I believe in legally carrying a gun at all times, then becoming a victim of such a crime diminishes. We have very little crime where I live, because of a high conceal carry population. And NO, it’s not the faux wild west, LOL. For the record, when Ohio was debated conceal carry, those against it used the “it will become like the Wild west ” argument. It didn’t and crime dropped significantly.

            Opposing racism doesn’t make one a race pimp, claiming racism where none exists makes one a race pimp. I dislike Obama because of his politics, not his skin color, yet I’m called a racist for thinking that way, by race pimps. Do you now understand better? It’s hard at times to type as one feels and thinks versus a regular face to face chat, but we’ll keep trying!

          • I’ve had a lot of face to face chats with people on race, but when the other face is a true racist I could literally see the hate boil up inside of them and they lost any ability for reasonable discussion. Most of those acted like I was a traitor for opposing racism, and I was left with the feeling that they would kill me if only they thought they could get away with it. All because I opposed racism.

            From what I’ve heard violent crime is down all over the place whether or not there are permissive gun laws. Do you have any references that show this only happens where permissive gun laws are in force? I don’t oppose gun ownership, but I just don’t know of anything that shows that gun ownership reduces crime. Maybe I just missed it, so if you can post it here I’d be interested to see it.

            But why won’t you answer my question about somebody who publicly opposes racism that you don’t consider a ‘race pimp’? Does that mean that you believe everyone who publicly opposes racism is a ‘race pimp’?

          • My apologies for not being as clear in my explanation so your question can be answered. Anybody can get behind a podium or in front of a camera and decry racism. That’s just fine and it’s one subject that should be spoken about more often. My issue is when people use an event that is NOT a racist event coming out and claiming that it is. The Trayvon Martin case is an example. Racism was claimed where it didn’t exist and couldn’t be proven (it was actually proven to be the opposite with Zimmerman). Yet, Sharpton and Jackson and Obama and Holder all spouted off at the mouth claiming racism. They were RACE PIMPS under those circumstances.

            Mike Brown was shot by a cop that he attacked. The cop was white, but had he not attacked the cop, he would not have been shot. Out came the race pimps, based on lies from a felon no less, and this led to riots and business’s being burned down in their own community (which is really stupid if you ask me). Instead of making the facts the number one issue, the race pimps made racism the main issue. Obama, Holder and Sharpton led the pack. Jesse Jackson was strangely quiet on this issue.

            The Eric Garner case, once again, made into a racial issue where none existed. because the cop was white, race pimps unite, here we go again. Now cops, two minorities I might add, have been executed and other attacks are being reported daily since. Why? Because the race pimps get the microphone and claim racism where racism wasn’t an issue.

            IF anyone can show that racism is involved in a crime and it’s clear, then people should speak out about racism under those instances. When a person attacks another person it’s wrong. When a cop uses excessive force, it’s wrong. When someone is attacked simply because of their skin color it is wrong. Wrong is wrong. The last one, attacking because of skin color isn’t just wrong, it’s down right ignorant and unacceptable. That is why, in a moral society, we have laws against these things.

            Now, back to conceal carry on my part. Color means nothing to me, if I feel the need to use deadly force then so be it. Blood is red, skin color don’t matter.

          • No, it’s not that you weren’t clear. You were pretty clear in what you said. I’m just amazed at the fact that in a country of over 300 million you don’t know of a single person who publicly opposes racism but you don’t consider a ‘race pimp’. I guess you just never heard of anyone publicly opposing racism the way you prefer, and that’s OK. Maybe you can just tell me how you’d prefer that somebody publicly oppose racism. How would they do it and not be a ‘race pimp’?

            I don’t remember anybody with public recognition (a public figure) in any of these events promoting violence. In fact, from what I remember they all called for the public to refrain from violence. And earlier I told you I heard Mr Sharpton on TV talking about the 2 police officers who were killed, and he didn’t say anything to support that act or defend the criminal who did it. In fact, when I was listening he said it was a despicable act and he had only good things to say about the 2 policemen. Maybe later on he talked about liking the violence or supporting violent people and I just didn’t hear it. Is there any link you can give me that shows this?

            I don’t oppose American gun ownership, but I’m surprised that a former soldier would take a devil-may-care view on firearm violence. I’m sure that you realize that if you ever did have to kill somebody that it’s also possible that either you would get killed right back or possibly find yourself charged with murder like the USAF fella in Tallahassee. He probably never imagined that he would be sent to prison for 25 years to life either, but he was.

            Most soldiers I know aren’t too crazy about firearm violence because it’s too often senseless, and anyone can do it — even a young child. Experiencing violence like this gives many a different perspective on it, but I admit that’s not always true.

          • Al Sharpton was part of the protest were the protesters were chanting about killing cops and never said a word UNTIL two cops were killed. Frankly, I don’t care about him or what he does anymore. Sharpton couldn’t hold MLK’s jockstrap.

            As far as the gun issue, I’m very well educated on our laws concerning stand your ground and castle doctrine laws. My job in the USAF was an instructor in weapons safety, marksmanship and preventive maintenance (we were known as “Red Hats” because we wore red hats for safety on the range). I have earned an Excellence in Competition Medal for handgun during a military competition. Never had an opportunity to compete with the rifle, which I’m better at.

            I hope and pray that I can die without ever having to shoot another person. As a backup sniper for the Secret Service in Saudi during Desert Storm, I had several jobs with quite simple orders. In short, if “A” happens, I shoot to kill. This was during visits by the President and later the Vice president. “A” never happened and I’m blessed for that.

            Today, I carry a weapon everywhere. It’s second nature and I hardly even know it’s there. Once again, I hope and pray I never have to use it against a human being. I’m six for six this deer season, 3 with a muzzleloader, 3 with a rifle.

            Firearm related crimes are a result of government action in most cases. I know, that sounds crazy but think about this. If the drug war ended and all drugs were made legal (with controlled effects and including anti addiction drugs with them) they would be no less a problem than alcohol. Think about Garner and why he was even harassed. He was selling loosies (single cigarettes) without paying his government for permission, aka a permit. This also means he wasn’t paying the required taxes demanded from his profits of his sales. As a result he ended up dead. This was the result of his refusal to pay the government there demanded fees, much like how organized crime demanded protection payments. Things to ponder my friend!

          • I think it is because those who oppose racism are counter to what he believes. If a person is against racism then he is against that person.

          • I belonged to a group, set up by our mayor, to combat racism. It was in answer to WAR coming into our city and trying to recruit. One thing we did was to make a film about our city. We went to the most popular spot – the green belt – and interviewed people who were there. All of the Caucasians said there wasn’t racists in our city and the minority groups had a different take on it.

          • Well, yes, I guess it’s easy to miss if you aren’t one of the targets. But what do you mean by WAR coming to recruit?

          • The neo nazi group, WAR, white aryan resistance. They were distributing the most hateful racist flyers. The mayor announced that anyone who was against racism should tie a blue ribbon on their door knobs. The response made me proud to live where I do.

          • I believed it was probably an acronym for a racist group, but asking just seemed the easiest way to verify it. Did you manage to run the group out of your area?

          • He’s Black, he has to be bad. That is how they think. When Obama was elected, according the Southern Poverty Law Center, white supremist groups doubled.

      • James, there are many people who deny being racists, sometimes even to themselves, but their actions speak louder than words. Just recently, I had a guy describing an accident he was in at an intersection. His words: “II never saw the other car,so it must have been speeding. The Black guy came out of nowhere.” After he told his story I asked him what pertinence the color of the other guy’s skin had on the story. He answered that it was just a description. How many times have you heard someone say, as a description, “This white guy came out of nowhere?”.

        • Well, I actually have heard people say that, but I get your point. When it was said it was in an area where there weren’t a lot of white people around. I never minded so much that people might have biases that they didn’t realize as long as they are honest about it. It’s the ones who aren’t that are a real pisser. You can’t talk anything out with a liar.

    • Thanks goes to the messenger:) We Conservatives see this all too clearly. Why are the Liberals so blind? All this to create chaos and call you know what Law? Divide and conquer? They would call us paranoid when we are more than aware of our surroundings and we see what is happening to democracy. Countries come and go, they divide and they are dissolved. Let’s just hope it is not for the sake of the Left. Nothing like shooting yourself in the foot, Libs. Again, thanks goes to the messenger.

  10. New York……arrests down 66%…..Boston…arrests down 59%……st Louis…arrests down ….72%………and this is just the beginning.

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