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Sunday, January 20, 2019

Donald Trump’s approval rating shot up in the wake of the deal that he and Mike Pence made with Carrier Corp. to keep jobs from moving jobs at an Indianapolis furnace factory from moving to Mexico. Media coverage repeated Trump’s claim that he and Pence, still governor of Indiana, had saved more than 1,000 jobs.

But when Seth Meyers took “a closer look” at the Carrier story — from the first commitment made by Trump on the campaign trail to the deal itself — he found the president-elect was “lying his ass off,” as a labor leader at the furnace plant put it.

Meyers also helpfully explores the hypocrisy of right-wing media figures, from Stuart Varney and Sean Hannity of Fox News to Rush Limbaugh, who shrieked about the dreaded “socialism” of President Obama’s auto bailout (which actually saved a million-plus jobs) – but praised Trump and Pence for their $7 million state payoff to Carrier. And he demonstrates what happens when Trump “lies his ass off,” which isn’t exactly unusual.

If you prefer truth, it’s still available on Late Night.

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84 responses to “#EndorseThis: Seth Meyers Sifts Truth From Lies In Trump’s Carrier Rescue”

  1. bobnstuff says:

    The best part is that Trump attack the union leader on Twitter for his statement. How dare someone point out that the Great and Powerful Trump lied. Now Trumps Minions are attacking the guy with death threats They are even threatening his family. You have to watch what you say about Trump or his brown shirts will get you.

    • dpaano says:

      It’s getting as bad as the KGB in Russia!! Pretty soon, none of us will be free to say what we want about our lying president-elect without being threatened! This is what the voters wanted…unfortunately, this is what they’re going to get! I wonder if the union leader at Carrier was a Trump voter? If so, he’s not going to be any happier as time goes on! Once the Trump followers realize (if they EVER do) that Trump conned them with his lies and promises…..the ones that he isn’t going to keep (and already has not kept), maybe they’ll see the light! Basically, however, they’ve been blinded AND brainwashed, so I’m not hoping for much from them!

    • InformedVoter says:

      Sorry Bob, but you and the Union leader picked the wrong battle to fight. President Trump claimed 1100, but 300 were to stay for an indefinite period. BUT even if you back out 300, it means 800 JOBS WERE SAVED! Since the 300 research jobs will now remain for 10 years, it could be argued that President Trump did ACTUALLY save 1100 jobs.
      So, your challenge to produce one instance when Obama PERSONALLY got involved in saving just one job by negotiating with a CEO.
      Spoiler Alert: ZERO times.

      • bobnstuff says:

        The 300 never were going anywhere. Just how much did it cost the tax payers to save those jobs? Why is it OK for Trump to give away tax dollars but it was unforgivable when Obama did it. I guess you don’t remember the CEO’s of the auto makers coming with hat in hand to Congress looking for a bailout. At the time the republicans said let the go bankrupt. How many jobs did we save back then.

        • InformedVoter says:

          So we saved over 700 jobs for $700,000 per year for the next 10 years. The 300 research jobs you speak of were probably going to disappear within 4-5 years. These jobs will also remain for the negotiated period.
          The auto bailout cost the taxpayers $9.2 billion. YES, the bailout lost $9.2 billion! If both FCA and GM had gone bankrupt, the majority of the jobs (including their suppliers) would have gone to Ford and the remaining automakers. They would have had to increase production to produce the cars that GM and FCA produced.
          So for a PALTRY $9.2 lost, we saved a few thousand jobs! With bargaining prowess like that, perhaps you should get Obama to negotiate your next raise.
          And just look at the financial mess the ACA has created. Millions of folks are seeing premium increases of more than 100% in two years. These folks will be dropping their health insurance so in the end the 10 million adults without health care number will climb back to where the number of uninsured was. And millions more have lost their good policies and moved to policies they didn’t want. Could these voters have decided to vote against HilLIARy? You betcha.

          So Obama personally didn’t negotiate the saving of any jobs. President Trump is 5-6 weeks from taking office and he’s already saved 5800 jobs (the 5000 Ford KTP jobs plus the Carrier jobs). He’s got a commit from the CEO of Southbank to create perhaps 50000 jobs and have $50 billion invested.
          You lefties are scared that President Trump will succeed in fixing the recovery that never really happened. And voters will realize that Obama and crew have been lying to the public for the past 8 years.

          • bobnstuff says:

            1.2 million jobs save by the auto bailout those that know say were saved. Cost per job saved about the same.
            My question isn’t why did we try to keep Carrier, it’s why it is now OK to do it but it wasn’t OK under Obama.
            Ford never was sending any jobs south, that’s one of those fake news stories that Trump loves so much. The contract with the Union is what has been keeping Ford jobs here, you know those nasty unions. Under contract Ford can’t move any jobs.
            As far as the ACA and rates. Had a few small changes been made there wouldn’t be these rate increases but the republicans have done everything they could to make it fail. The insurance industry sure isn’t hurting because of it, the drug companies sure aren’t being hurt by it. America pays more for healthcare then any other country but we get far from the best care.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Those 1.2 million jobs figure assume ALL those working for GM, FCA and ALL their suppliers would have closed and ALL jobs lost. This is pure fantasy. The suppliers would have contracted with Ford and the remaining automakers. Ford and the remaining workers would hired the workers being let go to add additional shifts to produce the cars. That 1.2 million job number is bogus and only naive folks would claim otherwise, including your “those that know”.
            Obama never really, PERSONALLY saved any jobs. He used the failed logic of throwing large amounts of money against a problem, and most of the money went to those running the programs. In this case, President Trump personally negotiated with the the companies to make it happen..
            YES, Ford did change their minds about shipping 5000 KTP jobs to Mexico. The video from the plant, when the announcement was made that the jobs were moving, went viral. Two days after the election, Bill Ford personally called President Trump and told him Ford had changed their mind. It is NOT a FAKE story.
            Several of your low information crowd are still claiming that the entire $7 million is being paid up front instead of it being spread across 10 years. You keep saying the 5000 KTP jobs are a fake. What will it take for you low information folks to stop believing sources like MSNC and Steven Colbert, as if they would tell you the truth.
            The ACA was doomed from the start, It was unsustainable and just about everyone knew it. Yes, the insurance companies ARE being hurt. Why to you think several have pulled out of the program? In many areas, folks now have ONLY one insurance company to choose from.
            The rates are doubling because the insurance companies are losing big dollars. Why do you think your rates for insurance go up after you make a claim? Because the company needs to recoup their losses!
            With president Trump’s mandate, drug company stock prices plunged.
            Pelosi said “we have to pass it to see what’s in it”. That should have told you it was flawed. It’s the original bill the Dems put together. The used the reconciliation open to shove it down through. Not one Rep voted for it. Even the voters in MA elected Brown to replace Kennedy so that the ACA would not get passed.
            I’m not sure I agree that we don’t have the best (not in all areas). People point to Canada, but they have a tiered medical system. Those that have their equivalent of the ACA, get shoddy treatment and must wait 2 years for things like knee replacements. The same is true for the European counties’ health plans.
            You guys are just plain scared that President Trump is going to finally get the economy that Obama kept down, churning again.
            Your link was written by a dreamer. Reality is that the companies are losing their butts. If they were reaping the returns your guys claims, why are they jumping ship? Think about it. The article has skewed information as badly as MSNBC.

  2. johninPCFL says:

    Yeah, from 2200 jobs permanently saved using threats and bravado to 730 jobs saved until next year using $7 million of Indiana taxpayer money. Of course, after next year, it’ll be ZERO jobs saved for that $7 million, but the droolers are too braindead to remember that…

    • InformedVoter says:

      You really need to do more checking of facts, you know, facts, something the left seems to ignore.
      The $7 million is over the next 10 years, so it’s only $700,000 per year. No one claimed 2200 hundred jobs saved.
      The facts:
      In total, there were 2400 jobs. 300 research jobs were supposed to remain, for an indefinite period. Thus 2100 jobs were scheduled to move to Mexico. Now there will be 1300 jobs moving to Mexico. The 300 research jobs are going to stay. The remaining 800 jobs are remaining in the US. The incentive plan is to roll out over the next 10 years, with $700,000 incentive per year.

      So, please identify how many jobs Obama PERSONALLY saved by negotiating with some CEO. Spoiler Alert: ZERO.

      • johninPCFL says:

        Trump claimed 2200 in a campaign appearance. Sorry he was wrong.
        $7 million is still $7 million, unless you’re claiming some mystical Trump math.
        700 MORE Carrier jobs disappearing next year when THE OTHER PLANT closes.
        Like I said, $7 million spent and zero jobs saved.
        “If Barack Obama had tried the same maneuver, he’d probably have drawn criticism for intervening in the free market.” At least be honest and just admit you’re a troll.

        • InformedVoter says:

          What part of the $7 million being spread over 10 years don’t you understand? It’s $700,000 per year for 10 years. IF the plant were to close after a year, then the only incentive paid would be $700,000 NOT $7 million.
          President Trump saved at least 700 jobs! Obama PERSONALLY saved zero jobs! He doesn’t posses the ability to pull off such a wonderful action.

          So now you’re calling me a troll. Thank you for the complement. Part of the definition of being a troll is that I get paid for posting verifiable information that just drives you low information lefties batty because you can’t provide any true FACTS to refute my statements. Wish I were a troll, but alas, I’m just plain informed voter.
          If you wish to upset a conservative, tell them lies (like your crowd does). If you wish to upset a liberal, tell them the truth (like those of us who are informed do).

          • johninPCFL says:

            It’s $7 million, and the OTHER PLANT WITH THE OTHER 700 JOBS is closing. So, zero net jobs saved, and $7 million spent. Conservatism in action.

            Trolls get paid for posting anything that gets a reaction – it generates additional posts. So, just like Agent Orange, you post lies (and occasionally the truth) to get reactions. I guess by your definition (daffynition?) you’re a liberal.

          • InformedVoter says:

            OK, we’ll try this again. The $7 million is SPREAD over 10 years, at $700,000 per year! What part of that don’t you understand?
            You are incorrect about the jobs. Even the union boss who is trying to argue with President Trump by saying that it’s not 1100 jobs but ONLY 800 jobs being saved. acknowledges that 800 jobs WERE saved.
            Why do low information folks like you keep denying the truth? No wonder you believe in global warming and so many other lies the left publishes.
            800 jobs were saved and for the $7 million to be spent, those jobs will have to stay 10 years.
            Why don’t you try calling the 800 who have kept their jobs that they really didn’t get to keep their jobs?

            With the way you can’t seem to accept the truth about this forum, it’s little wonder why you think I have posted lies. The truth is that I’ve posted the truth, over and over, and it’s your low information minions that can’t accept the truth!

          • johninPCFL says:

            So it IS Trump math. He announces 2200 saved, but it’s really 800. $7 million is really only $700k. Wow. But that IS how he deals with other business relationships. Sign a PO, then pay whatever the hell you feel like AFTER the job is finished.
            Those jobs have no time limit on them. They can disappear next year (and in fact already have been announced to disappear), and the $7 million spent to keep them is STILL DUE. Get it, idiot? $7 million spent and ZERO jobs saved.

          • InformedVoter says:

            How low information can you be? It appears pretty damn low!
            President Trump ACTUALLY saved AT LEAST 800 jobs. Period, NO jobs have been announced that they’re disappearing. You made that up and have no information or facts to back you up.
            The time period is for 10 years, with incentives for each year to be $700,000. So if the jobs were to disappear after 1 year, the state only pays $700,000, NOT the entire $7 million!
            You state the jobs could disappear in say 5 years. Well, your job could disappear in 5 years.
            Your final sentence is TOTAL fabrication! We have not spent $7 million AND we DID SAVE 800 jobs, even the union folks will support that number. The union’s problem is the counting of the 300 research jobs that probably would have disappeared within 3-5 years.
            Get it? $700,000 spent and 800 jobs SAVED!
            So who’s the idiot now? Certainly not ME.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Apparently you’re totally ignorant of how “economic incentives” work. Your complete ignorance is truly a staggering thing to behold, almost like you’ve never heard about the finagling that companies have done lately. Buy some property, hire a few people, grab a tax incentive package, fire everybody: “The jobs outlook isn’t better in Tampa Bay, where Scott inked deals to create 7,251 jobs in exchange for $39 million in tax breaks. Jobs created to date: 462.”
            So, there WILL BE $7 million spent whether the jobs stay in Indiana for ten years or ten days, the second plant WILL CLOSE NEXT YEAR sending another 700 jobs to Mexico along with the 1300+ leaving from this plant, Agent Orange arranged for the jobs to be paid for in contravention of his stated campaign position.
            So, in short, Agent Orange lied about his position against using state resources to intercede in private company decisions, he arranged for $7 million to be spent saving 800 jobs for an indeterminate period of time, and let another 700+ jobs from the same company be terminated at the very same time, leaving no jobs saved and $7 million spent.
            You’re still the idiot, and you’re tagged with an obviously incorrect handle to boot. You’re about as informed as a rock.

          • InformedVoter says:

            You are SO WRONG it’s ludicrous! NO, the $7 million will NOT be paid up front or in total unless the jobs stay 10 years. Just about every article published stated this fact. Where you got the idea that it was all going to be paid is nothing but a big lie. Talk about being low information, you’re the poster child!
            And, since you’re the only one who’s made claim about “the second plan will close …”, it would seem that portion of your message is also a lie. Even if “the second plant” did close, at least the 800 jobs President Trump PERSONALLY saved, would still be there for 10 years minimum.
            No matter how you lie, you can’t seem to grasp that he saved at least 800 jobs, and one could argue that he saved the 300 research jobs that most likely would have disappeared without the plant still in operation.
            Get some knowledge and facts before spouting your LIES. But that’s how the low information left operates. Make something up and keep your teeth locked to the lie and hope the truly informed voters finally believe your lies.
            Once more I’ve shredded your low information lies. Gotcha again! Boy this is getting predictable, as it happens every time.
            You’re probably one of those that still thinks the election polls were correct and that somehow HilLIARy will win. Pathetically low information, that’s your name.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Your brain death is lamentable. I never indicated that the tax incentive was up front, only that like every other one pushed forward by the GOP in the states where they’ve DONE IT, that once granted it can’t be rescinded, meaning that the entire grant is used whether the jobs stay or not.
            Yes, the 300 research jobs are safe for now, meaning that the 2200 he claimed is now 300. More Trump math, I guess.
            The election polls were in fact correct. She led in the nationwide polls by about 2%, and still leads in the nationwide popular vote by about 2%. The Putin vote strategically added into some of the states gave Agent Orange the presidency. Kudos to Putin.
            Manafort and Tillerson will now take over. Agent Orange can stay in New York.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Your statements did and still do imply the money would be paid up front. Why would Minnesota continue to pay $700,000 per year if the jobs moved? Yet you keep saying the $7 million will be paid.
            Yes Trump’s math is spot on. He saved 1100 Carrier jobs for the next 10 years. You can lie and say only 300, but then you’re so used to lying that you can’t tell it.
            The polls were fake and paid for by HilLIARy in an attempt to discourage Trump’s supporters from actually voting.
            I kept posting that Trump was ahead by 1-2 points, yet the MSM kept publishing polls that showed HilLIARy ahead by double digits in states that HilLIARy ended up losing.
            On the morning of the election, the MSM had HilLIARy with certain 238 EC votes. They had MI with HilLIARy leading by as much as 8 points, and at 11 AM, the Detroit Free Press announced that MI had gone to HilLIARy!
            The polls were conducted on a state level, I guess you think it was national, no surprise there.
            HilLIARy was ahead by lots of points in states like MI, WI, PA, FL and was expected to win. Yet she lost the POPULAR vote in these states. In fact, she lost the popular vote in so many states that the result is that President Trump has a mandate! There are dozens of maps of the US that show that the polls were FAKED, and HilLIARy paid for them.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Wow. Jethro Tull sang a song about you – thick a a brick.
            When a tax incentive is issued, so long as the company is in business it takes the deductions. So that means that so long as Carrier is in business, it will take the deductions. So that means it’s $7 million spent whether it’s ten days or ten years. It doesn’t have to keep the jobs in place.
            Hillary led in the national polls by about 2 points during the week leading up to the election. Statewide polls in all of the battleground states were too close to call. Putin voted in the close states, and Trump won. Agent Orange has already designated Manafort and Tillerson to run the country for Putin while he stays in New York to run his businesses.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Once more, you are WRONG! In order to receive the incentives, the plant must be up and operating. I don’t know where you’re negotiating incentives, but clearly you are giving away the store.
            SO if the plant closes, the incentives go away. Thus President Trump saved 1100 jobs at Carrier, 5000 at Ford’s KTP and because of his negotiations, may have created 50000 jobs from Southbank.
            I’m still waiting for you to provide something that shows that Obama personally accomplished half as much in 8 years! Oh, yeah, the country lost $9.2 BILLION to save a few thousand auto jobs. He must have someone with your skills doing the negotiating.
            The state polls WERE NOT TOO close to call. In MI, HilLIARy had a 6 point lead. When the early returns came in, the Detroit Free Press declared that HilLIARy had won MI. The 6 point lead was 2 ponts beyond the margin of “error”! The same poll leads were reported in the other swing states.
            Since you lefties made it a big issue during the primaries, let’s apply your rationale to the election. You slammed President Trump (doesn’t that sound great!) because he did collect >50% of the votes against a field of 16 opponents. Well HilLIARy didn’t get >50% of the popular vote nationwide, against a field of 4. So, she can’t claim she won the popular vote!
            Anyway you slice it, you have been proven to be WRONG about the jobs saved, the cost to the state, the polls in the swing states and even the Russia impact.
            Pretty much par for the course for you – all your arguments shredded. Here’s a link you’ll enjoy.

          • johninPCFL says:

            In order to receive the incentives, the company must STAY IN BUSINESS. That is all. Once the incentive is claimed, the state LEGISLATURE must rescind it. Sorry, dimbulb. Next year when the plant closes, the jobs are gone and Carrier keeps getting the tax rebate every year.
            Who issued the auto bailout checks first? “On December 19, 2008, a week after Republicans in the Senate had killed a bailout bill proposed by Democrats, saying it didn’t impose big enough wage cuts on the U.A.W., Bush unilaterally agreed to lend $17.4 billion of taxpayers’ money to General Motors and Chrysler, of which $13.4 billion was to be extended immediately. He had to twist the law to get the money. Deprived of congressional funding, he diverted cash from the loathed tarp program, which Congress had already passed, but which was supposed to be restricted to rescuing the banks. “I didn’t want there to twenty-one-per-cent unemployment,” he said to a meeting of the National Automobile Dealers Association in Las Vegas last month, explaining why he acted as he did. “I didn’t want history to look back and say, ‘Bush could have done something but chose not to do it.’ ”” So now it’s OK and millions of jobs were saved, right? Ignorant hypocrite.
            Given the depth of thought involved in your posts, it’s thermodynamically provable that if your brains were turned to gas, they wouldn’t be able to drive a pissant’s motorcycle half-way around a BB.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Why do you keep posting LIES about the incentives? The plan is for $700,000 per year for up to 10 years, IF the plant retains the 1100 jobs. If the jobs disappear, then the $700,000 goes bye-bye too! What part about that don’t you understand?
            You first claimed the money was upfront with ALL jobs leaving. Now you’re trying to pass off the lie that the money gets paid anyway. Stop posting your opinion, which turns out to be nothing but LIES.
            I made the claim that President Trump saved/created more jobs personally than Obama did. So what do you post? You bring up GW, why not Carter and FDR too?
            The left likes to claim the auto bailout made a profit. The bailout LOST $9.2 billion, and it was done on Obama’ watch. When you incorrectly claimed it made a profit, it was all attributed to Obama, so if it lost $9.2 billion, then he gets the loss and blame..
            So I’m still waiting for you to provide information that says Obama PERSONALLY saved x jobs. Until and unless you provide that proof, you can call me names, but that just means you’ve lost the argument.
            Once more your posts have been shredded.

          • johninPCFL says:

            You DO realized that Simon and Garfunkel’s tune “I am a rock” was talking about emotional stoicism, not mental acuity, right?
            These “tax incentive” laws were written by ALEC. If you don’t know who they are, or who they are owned by, use your google. They are all the same laws or rules, no matter where implemented, and are DESIGNED TO BE IMPOSSIBLE TO RESCIND. I never claimed that the money was up front (your lie), only that it was $7 million (which it will be.) IT IS DESIGNED TO BE USED IN FULL.
            You claimed the Obama auto loans, not me. I simply corrected your error, or was it an intentional lie by you? Why do you lie so often? Maybe you also have Trump disease and simply don’t know what the truth is?
            I never claimed the auto loans made a profit. Another of your lies. On the plus side: “It is estimated that the U.S. would have had 2.6 million fewer jobs in 2009 and 1.5 million fewer jobs in 2010 if the two auto companies had disappeared. The study also estimated the government “saved or avoided the loss of” $105 billion in lost taxes and social service expenses, such as food stamps, unemployment benefits and medical care.” So, a few million jobs and a hundred $billion saved is a good thing, right? It’s also a mistake to believe that Ford was not involved. They received $billions from a different federal government program, and would also have gone bankrupt if not.
            Also WRT TARP: “Was the taxpayer really out $700 billion? No, since Congress only authorized $350 billion to be lent out in 2008. The other $350 billion was saved for the new President when he took office in 2009. Obama never used the TARP funds to further bail out banks.”

          • InformedVoter says:

            Why you insist on saying the $7 million is already committed is beyond belief. I just checked again this morning, and the information available CLEARLY states the incentives of $700,000 per year will be paid as long as the plant remains open with at least 1000 workers. How much clearer can it be stated?
            You clearly stated that the $7 million would be paid immediately. OK, so immediately is not “up front”, but to me it’s the same.
            I asked you to provide just one instance where Obama PERSONALLY was involved in saving or creating jobs. Many of you fellow posters claim the auto bailout was a profit. I merely cautioned you to not make that false claim. The auto bailout, including last week’s $2 billion sale, still LOST $9.2 billion.
            The jobs saved by the bailout has been incorrectly stated as millions, but the reality is that the workers and suppliers would have gone to work for the remaining auto companies so they could up their production numbers.
            And NO, Ford took out personal loans, including leveraging their logo. They were well positioned to remain even if FCA and GM disappeared. In fact, Ford already had a plan in place to pick up production to capture the sales from those companies.
            So, the bottom line is that you’re low information and just about every chance you get, you show it!

            55800 jobs saved or created by President Trump in just a couple of weeks. Just think how many he’ll create once he’s sworn in.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Yeah, well Dildo Rick Scott had the same claim about the $39 million spent on 7,251 jobs. Once the companies came to Florida, they found out he had also gutted the university system and skilled employees were unavailable. Net result? $39 million spent, 462 jobs created. Draper Labs was the latest to leave town. Yep, they’re still getting their tax rebate payments even though their only employees are the security guards to keep vandals away.

            WRT the auto loans: Ford actually got the MOST MONEY from the fed. Just not from the TARP money.: “Automotive blog Jalopnik broke down which automotive lending companies got the most help, and leading the way was Ford Credit, which borrowed $15.9 billion. GMAC, GM’s financing arm which provided auto loans beyond the GM family of vehicles, took $13.9 billion. BMW took $6.2 billion. Chrysler $4.9 billion and Toyota $4.6 billion.”

            Now maybe Dirty Mike is smarted than Dildo Rick, but I doubt it. Since all of these “rules” require legislative action to unroll them, once in place the crony capitalists just buy the legislators they need to keep the money flowing in. $700k per year from the state for a decade with probably $20k spent on their favorite legislators, still adds up to $7 million spent.

          • InformedVoter says:

            I guess you know more than the experts who CLEARLY state that the payout is $700,000/year IF the plant in up and employs 1100 workers.
            Ford BORROWED the money by using collateral, including the Ford logo. They DIDN’T receive ANY bailout money.
            Lots of auto buyers turned to Ford because they didn’t get any bailout money.
            The $7 million ONLY gets spent if there are 1100 jobs, each year for 10 years. It can’t get any plainer than that.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Ford borrowed the money ($15.9 billion) as opposed to selling the stock? OK. They BORROWED the bailout money and it was repaid. GM and Chrysler sold stock, which was sold back into the open market.
            Like I pointed out, Dildo Scott made the EXACT SAME PROMISES, and then reneged in EXACTLY THE SAME way – because the legislature has to act to cancel the tax program. They won’t, and Carrier will get the entire $7 million even after they close the plant next year.
            It can’t get any plainer than that.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Why you insist on displaying your ignorance for all to see is amazing. Ford used collateral, just like you or I, when it borrowed the money.
            GM and FCA made their current stock worthless, costing millions of dollars to be lost by their shareholders. Then they issue new script to the Government. In the end, the taxpayers LOST 49.2 Billion from the GM and FCA bailouts. The government wasn’t involved in the Ford loans.
            Just because one state had to pay the total incentives doesn’t mean that all other states granted their incentives the same way.
            So, sorry, but it is plain that if the plant closes next year, they will only have received $700,000 in total incentives.

          • johninPCFL says:

            What an ignoramus you are! Ford got money from several government programs, $billions in the form of grants: “The Obama Administration loaned Ford the money to help it pay for development of hybrids and EVs, and to retool its factories to produce smaller, cleaner vehicles. While not characterized as a “bailout” by any means, let’s be honest: Ford’s loan – received at a critical time when other sources of financing weren’t available to automakers or their suppliers – no doubt helped the carmaker survive the industry crisis and contributed to its strong market position today, especially after the Obama Administration finalized tougher fuel economy rules this week.

            Indeed, lest we forget: the feds in 2009 were handing out fistfuls of cash to bolster the auto industry, beyond the $64 billion used to bail out GM and Chrysler. Treasury staked another $18.7 billion on rescuing the companies’ auto lending affiliates (it still owns 74% of Ally, formerly known as GMAC). And the Energy Department doled out billions more to Ford and others to preserve auto-making jobs in the U.S. while steering the industry toward cleaner vehicles.”

          • InformedVoter says:

            You really are naive and you keep proving it. What part of borrowing WITH collateral don’t you comprehend?
            Ford used collateral. GM and FCA used nothing except the promise to repay the funds. The “new” stock was worthless paper if they failed. Turned out this promise was not kept to the tune of $9.2 billion.
            So how much of the $9.2 billion loss was from Ford?

            What does providing incentives to develop electric cars, emissions, etc have to do with the auto bailout? Nothing!
            You have been proven to be wrong about the auto bailout making $15 billion profit and are just slinging BS. Typical for low information posters like you.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Sure they did. You know about the internet, right? Helps putting the torch to your bullshit. In short, Alex, Ford was mortgaged up to the eyeballs before the crash, but had some of that cash in the bank to live on while it waited for even more government money to come rolling in. That’s how they ended up with the most money to repay, over $15 billion.

            “Ford was the only one of Detroit’s three automakers able to avoid taking a direct government bailout in 2009 to bypass bankruptcy. However, that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been able to benefit from some government largess.

            Back in 2006 before the credit markets collapsed, Ford essentially mortgaged every facility it had in order to borrow $23.5 billion. That money was used to provide operating cash flow that General Motors and Chrysler didn’t have when things went south in 2008. The money allowed Ford to keep the lights on, but it also saddled the company with the debt service payments of $318 per vehicle in the second quarter of this year.

            Rather than direct bailouts, Ford has been able to take advantage of several government-backed low interest loan programs like the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing program run by the Department of Energy to fund new vehicle development and factory retooling. Ford is also getting tax breaks and low interest loans from various states as well as other countries like the UK and Russia. At the same time, it has used profits earned in the past year to pay down higher interest debt earlier than planned. In doing so, Ford hopes to get back from junk bond status to investment grade by late 2011 or early 2012. ”

            “Ford had been seeking about $5 billion in loans by 2011 and a total of $11 billion from the program to invest $14 billion in advanced technologies over the next seven years. The company said it will transform plants in Illinois, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, and Ohio.

            Ford CEO Alan Mulally said in an interview with The Associated Press that the department approved the company’s entire proposal through 2011 and it would help Ford meet the new fuel efficiency standards.”

          • InformedVoter says:

            You must be one of those who lost their butt when GM made their stock worthless. I don’t own any auto stocks, so I have reason to defend Ford. The problem is that you keep spewing lies about how Ford actually worked their way out of collateral based debt. FCA and GM, had they failed would have only lost their script stock that was issued. Ford would have lost their collateral.
            I merely used Ford as an example of how you low information lefties like to alter the truth and make outrageous claims. Claims that the auto bailout profited $15 billion.
            You can go back to 1903, or whenever Ford founded the company and say he borrowed money all you wish. It will not alter the fact that Ford didn’t contribute one cent to the $9.2 billion that GM and FCA cost the taxpayers.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Good god, you’re thick, ignorant, or just lying for effect.

            As I showed above, Ford HAD NO COLLATERAL!!! They were already mortgaged to the eyes when the crash occurred, and the only reasons they survived are that their suppliers survived (because GM and Chrysler survived – Ford’s Mulally, Dec. 5, 2008: “In particular, the collapse of one or both of our domestic competitors would threaten Ford because we have 80 percent overlap in supplier networks and nearly 25 percent of Ford’s top dealers also own GM and Chrysler franchises.”), because they had a little cash left over from their previous mortgage borrowing (which left them with no collateral for any new loans), and because they had access to low-interest, no collateral, FEDERAL loans. Not private equity – taxpayer money.

            “General Motors Corp. and Chrysler Group LLC have received billions of dollars in federal loans to restructure their companies through government-led filings for bankruptcy protection, but Ford avoided seeking emergency aid by mortgaging all of its assets in 2006 to borrow about $25 billion.”

            “In a Jan. 30, 2009, report on the bailout program, the Congressional Research Service noted that Ford “is counting on $5 billion from the DOE loan program to support a $14 billion plan to reorient its lineup toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.” On June 23, 2009, the Department of Energy announced it would provide $5.9 billion to Ford “to transform factories across Illinois, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, and Ohio to produce 13 more fuel efficient models.””

          • InformedVoter says:

            You’re really out of touch aren’t you!
            They why does the Fed say “Ford did not participate in the bailout program”? Guess they forgot.

            Ford, after the auto industry rebounded, gleefully advertised “we did not request nor accept any bailout money”. Thousands of buyers did and still are staying with Ford because Ford DID NOT ACCEPT ANY BAILOUT FUNDS!

            Perhaps you should try your preaching prowess on some small children or dogs. They might believe you.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Remember the posts up above where you lied claiming that it was private money that bailed Ford out? Remember the lie that they used collateral to borrow the money? Why do you continue to lie when the clear postings are that the money was FEDERAL MONEY borrowed using NO COLLATERAL because THEY HAD NO COLLATERAL? The cool thing was that after taking the FEDERAL MONEY, they used it to retire the BANK LOANS they’d taken out two years earlier. Thus, the PRIVATE MONEY they borrowed was replaced by TAXPAYER MONEY just as soon as they could get it!

            You are the stupidest liar here!

          • InformedVoter says:

            You certainly like to lie and once you get on a roll, you just keep spewing them out.
            I never said Ford borrowed private money. I said they did not use the bailout as they had already sought out loans using collateral and were well positioned to turn down the bailout offers.
            You can keep claiming they took bailout money, but the record says “you are lying”.

          • johninPCFL says:

            From your own post, liar: “And NO, Ford took out personal loans, including leveraging their logo. ”

            They, in FACT, used FEDERAL LOAN MONEY because they were ALREADY MORTGAGED TO THE HILT and could get NO MORE private money.

            As it happens, the Chrysler and GM money also started out as federal loans, they were forced into bankruptcy when their repayment plans were denied.

          • InformedVoter says:

            OK, have it your way. Ford stole millions from the auto bailout pool and never repaid a dime!
            What do I care?
            President Trump still saved 5000 Ford KTP jobs from going to Mexico, something Obama didn’t do PERSONALLY in 8 years.

            PS you’re still wrong about Ford!

          • johninPCFL says:

            Well, there IS one form of government where the head dictates to the producers how many people they WILL hire and what products they WILL produce.

            It’s just not Capitalism.

            The Reign of Put…er…Agent Orange has begun!!

          • johninPCFL says:

            Maybe you were thinking of this: “The Treasury also points out that while it lost money on GM, taxpayers came out ahead when you look at the entire TARP bailout, of which the auto bailout was a relatively small part. In total, Treasury spent $421.8 billion to rescue financial institutions and the auto industry, and it has recovered $432.7 billion so far — a tidy $10.9 billion profit — including the GM losses.”

          • InformedVoter says:

            According to the folks who cook the books for Obama, yes TARP made a profit. But don’t forget, Obama’s team also says unemployment is down and it’s not really down. Still around 11% unemployed, same for the past 10 years or so.

            You low information lefties keep claiming that the auto bailout made a profit, but of course, now even you admit it lost $9.2 billion.

            Just as I claimed all along. And people question my moniker. Absolutely, I am an InformedVoter. Thanks for helping to prove it.

          • johninPCFL says:

            I didn’t “admit” anything. I quoted an article, which I believe to be correct.

            The folks who cook the books? You mean the folks using the same formulas for computing statistics that have been in use since at least Reagan’s presidency?

            You are as “informed” as a Fox viewer can be. By which I mean you’ve incorporated all of the lies spewed over the last few years into your being, and can puke them out at will.

          • InformedVoter says:

            The folks that provide the stats you quote are Obama appointees. They produce stats that are altered to show that Obama’s policies are working. Hence, they are the ones cooking the books.
            I am more informed than just about all you low information sheeples. I kept preaching that Trump was ahead in the polls, but you kept saying “wrong” and that HilLIARy would win in a landslide.
            If I’m so “uninformed”, then how did I get the information that turned out to be true?

          • johninPCFL says:

            “They” are the same kinds of folks who have been working in the same departments since Reagan was president, and they’ve been using the same formulas since that era. The only ones who believe the results are “fudged” are the Alex Jones type conspiracy nuts who also believe that the president is Kenyan, that the world trade center collapse was an inside demolition, and that Sandy Hook children weren’t murdered.
            Agent Orange was behind by 2% and lost the popular vote by 2%. If not for Putin voting in a few states, he’d have lost the presidency by 2%. You lie again – I never predicted a win by Hillary, or a win in a landslide.
            You guessed correctly (even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally), or are a Putin insider.

          • InformedVoter says:

            These are politically biased employees who gladly provide cooked stats.
            Why do you think the request was made to the DOE employees about believing in climate change? While this was not a legal request, civil servants, the new leaders will quickly determine who supports the hoax and move these folks to positions that will not promote the hoax.
            I keep telling you that the polls were conducted on a state-by-state basis. These fake polls had HilLIARy leading by double digits in swing states like Michigan. The fake polls only fooled low information folks like you.
            So you never claimed HilLIARy would win? That’s a bald faced lie and you know it. You sat there like your fellow low information crowd and happily waited for election day.
            So, just as the polls were faked, the cooked books are fake.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Sure, that’s why they were called NATIONAL POLLS, and why several states WEREN’T SURVEYED. Why do you have such a hatred for the truth? Why lie when the truth will do?

            You have to be the most bold troll Putin has on the payroll. How much have you made now, a dollar?

          • InformedVoter says:

            While there are national polls, it’s the individual polls that track the election most accurately. Well, the state polls had HilLIARy winning the majority of the swing states. WI had not gone GOP since 1988, MI since 1992, and FL since 2004. All these state polls had HilLIARy with wins.
            You low information lefties were already celebrating. The night before the election, HilLIARy hosted a yuge party with Hollywood celebs.
            On the morning of the election, MSNBC, CNN claimed HilLIARy already had received 238 EC votes and they even called MI as going to HilLIARy before noon. Not only didn’t HilLIARy win, but she didn’t even get 238!
            You just can’t seem to handle the truth.
            On the subject of popular vote, there were most likely millions of illegal votes counted for HilLIARy. Classic example is MI. The official margin is 10744. But the recount, in Detroit especially, showed that HilLIARy didn’t win by the margin reported. 366 out 622 precincts were labeled un-recountable because HiLIARy received more votes than there were registered voters in those precincts.
            This was the same scenario in OH and PA in 2012.

            Now HilLIARy, unable to handle the truth, is claiming that the Russians affected the outcome. The intel agencies can’t agree on who or when the hacking occurred. Concerning the truth, the fact remains that all the negative emails that were leaked still contained all the lies and negative stuff that HilLIARy and the DNC did. The emails were not altered.

            So was Russia involved, NYET!

          • johninPCFL says:

            Yes, the state by state polls are more accurate. The national polls had Hilary leading by 2% (within the margin of error), and she won the popular vote by 2%. Agent Orange keeps bellowing “illegal votes” with zero evidence because he can’t admit that he lost the popular vote. At least GWB was a grown-up.

            WI had a number of precincts that reported more Trump votes than registered voters. Call that the “Putin effect”. Apparently his guys didn’t know we kept a count of the voters in the precincts. They don’t do that in Russia, so he didn’t know to be careful with his hacks.

            You have no idea whether the emails were altered or not, Alex. You just have to push forward with this line because to admit otherwise betrays Agent Orange.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Yes, it has been proven that there were illegal votes cast for HilLIARy, You made another false claim that Trump received more votes than registered voters, but, you know that that’s an out and out lie. No post or search has made such a claim.
            You’re just pissed because it was proven the HilLIARy’s folks cheated.
            It still has NOT been proven that the Russians were behind the hacking. You can refer to the Putin effect all you wish, but NO PROOF that they did the hacking and certainly NO PROOF that it altered the election.

            Oh, you say, what was leaked hurt HilLIARy! But was the leaked information alerted? or was it a lie? Hell NO. The truth hurts! HilLIARy etc ACTUALLy wrote the emails and is totaly responsible for their content. If folks used that information in deciding who to vote for, good for them!
            You again lie when you claim the emails were altered. NO ONE has even hinted that the information was altered.
            Not even HilLIARy’s lying public puppets!
            Get over it! President Trump received a MANDATE from the voters!

          • johninPCFL says:

            More lies from you: “Earlier today we reported that three precincts in the Wisconsin county of Outagamie had revised their vote totals downward for Donald Trump by more than a thousand votes combined, with local officials insisting to their local ABC News affiliate that it was a mere arithmetic error. But as more revisions come in throughout the state, a total of nearly five thousand Trump votes in Wisconsin have now been taken off the official board because they apparently never existed to begin with. ”

            Agent Orange doesn’t have to show up at the White House. Bannon, Manafort, and Tillerson can handle it for Putin without him.

          • InformedVoter says:

            More lies FROM YOU!
            I just checked, just to make sure that President Trump was not still president, and guess what?

            President Trump’s margin of victory in WI, has actually increased by several hundred votes. The tallies have been certified by their board of canvassers. Trump won WI by a larger margin than reported earlier.

            The WI vote totals were finalized and certified by Dec. 13, so I don’t know what state you’re still counting.

            So, you can take your fabricated “earlier today” and file it with the other myths you lefties like to spread around.

            No matter, President Trump gets his MANDATE tomorrow.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Liar – quoted from multiple sources all referring back to county reports dating from Nov22. “The controversy in Wisconsin began when Outagamie County posted official results in which the total number of people who voted for president was higher than the total number of people who showed up to vote at all.”

            You are the most idiotic liar, given that all of your lies are easily looked up on the net.

            But you’re right, Putin begins operating the US through Agent Orange after tomorrow.

          • InformedVoter says:

            OK, you’re right. Ha, ha,
            SPOILER ALERT: The final tally on WI is that President Trump received 162 more votes than earlier reported.
            So Trump getting 162 more votes clearly shows that thousands of his votes were illegal.
            :And you wonder why I call your crowd low information.

          • johninPCFL says:

            I don’t wonder. After all, Putin is your master, misinformation is your stock-in-trade.

          • InformedVoter says:

            So where’s your proof that 50000 votes for HilLIARy were missing from WI? Talk about lying big time!

            You really need to seek out that safe room at the closest university. Better yet, try this link for food for thought. Any resemblance between you and the link is intentional.


          • johninPCFL says:

            See, that’s where a psychiatric diagnosis is necessary. You made up a number, then you invented a conversation, then you make up some more crap, then you claim it involves me. Once again: this is the internet. We can scroll back up the exchange here and see that it exists only in your mind. You are a pathological liar. You are so wound up in your own lies, that you can’t even see reality anymore

            I don’t click blind links from lying trolls. Sorry that your sex video stays unviewed.

          • InformedVoter says:

            And you wonder why you remain such a low information person. You lefties are nothing but bullies and close-minded fools.
            You guys, like Eleanore, made the claim on day one of the counting of WI votes that they had found 50000 votes for HilLIARy. Gee, what happened to those votes? The recount showed President Trump winning by 162 MORE votes.

            Regarding the bailout, you produced tons of garbage about Ford. I can provide many links that talk about the bailout losses and NONE of them mention anything about Ford being involved in the bailout. I wonder how the news media, like USA today overlooked that and you found it. Talk about showing off your low information status.


          • johninPCFL says:

            Wow, that was amazing! Now inside your tiny little brain I’m responsible for quotations issued by other people! Did your mother have any children that survived? Because you are one braindead idiot.

            I pointed out that Congress LOANED money to Ford, Chrysler, and GM to prevent the total collapse of the auto industry in America. You claimed that Ford took no government money, and I proved you wrong. That you continue to claim such just makes you a liar.

            But we already knew that. You prove it nearly every single day.

          • InformedVoter says:

            I stick by my truthful statements that Ford did not accept any bailout money. You continue to falsely claim they did. How may more links do you need to realize that you are the one who’s been lying?
            No my mother didn’t have any children who lived. I was hatched. It was a big headline story from the NYT and Washington Post, you know the same news sources that make news up and you believe them!

            A simple “I’m sorry” will do in your response. You lied because you really didn’t know the truth and you’re just trying to save what little face you have left.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Hatched? I would have guessed “cloned”, given that you display less intellect than Dolly’s younger brother.

            Why do you continue to lie? Ford took government loans. Ford had already mortgaged every plant and property they had, and had no recourse, just like Chrysler and GM. They took $9B from the same Congressionally appropriated pool as Chrysler and GM, signed by the same Bush appointee. Then they borrowed $5.9B more from the DoE and (cleverly) used the money to make payments on their private-sector mortgages. Since the $9B had a string attached (demonstrating the ability to repay) and they used payments made from the additional $5.9B to make payments, they escaped bankruptcy. Chrysler and GM got no additional DoE money, and failed their repayment tests. Their loans were converted to capital purchases – which became the “bailout”.

          • InformedVoter says:

            You like to say I’m the one lying, but, alas, it would appear that you have earned that dubious honor.
            I can keep producing links that show that ONLY GM and FCA were involved in the bailout and Ford sought other sources for borrowing money.
            And you wonder why you believed that HilLIARy was leading in the fake polls. Amazing!


          • johninPCFL says:

            Once again, the internet shows you to be a liar. The links I provided showed that Ford owed the fedgov $15B. If they borrowed from “other sources”, how do they owe the money back to the government?

            Agent Orange was behind by 2% in the national polls and lost the popular vote by 2%.

            You fail again, liar.

          • InformedVoter says:

            OK learned one, why would any professional pollster even bother to take a national poll when the national popular vote DOESN’T MEAN anything?!
            Thus, when you say HilLIARt was ahead in a national poll, you are lying. No news source even bothered to quote such a stupid and meaningless number. All the major news sources (perhaps that’s your problem, you only watch news sources that produce fake news, like the WP and NYT) quoted individual state polls.
            So your links are to be believed and my are lying. Sources like USAToday, etc.
            No, you’re not in meltdown mode!

          • johninPCFL says:

            From your own earlier post, liar: “While there are national polls, it’s the individual polls that track the election most accurately.”

            You’ve now shown that you can’t even remember what you’ve posted. This proves the “pathological liar” diagnosis for you. You need professional help.

          • InformedVoter says:

            You’re the one who kept claiming there were “national polls”, and I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and added that the individual polls were the ones to watch. I never quoted or referred to any national polls. Thus, you were lying then and are still lying.
            And you wonder why you do so poorly in these forums when someone challenges your statements.

            You need to find that crying room asap before you choke on your own lies.

          • johninPCFL says:

            You are just as sharp as a marble! There’s the Wall Street Journal poll from November 5 that showed Hillary ahead of Agent Orange 44% to 40% (assuming you’re not too stupid to look it up. If so, I’ll provide you a link.)

            That had narrowed to 2% on election day. And she won the popular vote by? Oh, yeah. 2%.

          • InformedVoter says:

            You keep throwing around numbers about national polls as if somehow HilLIARy will eventually win.
            From the beginning I said national polls were not a good measure and claimed the state polls were the place to be looking.

            All these numbers are from the morning of November 8, 2016: nationwide, HilLILARy led 45.5 – 42.2 — more than 3 (not the 2 you keep claiming) ahead – a meaningless number. MI – HilLIARy led by 3.4; WI – HilLIARy led by 6.5; PA – HilLIARy led by 1.9.
            These are the accepted poll numbers provided by the paid for polls from HilLIARy and her team.
            So ask yourself, how could all these polls, including national (meaningless) numbers have been so off? Even HilLIARy has finally admitted that paying for the polls was not such a good idea.

          • johninPCFL says:

            I said Hillary lost weeks ago, liar. I mention the polls every time some uninformed loser talks about how poor the polls were. Amazing that they predicted a 2% to 4% win (depending on which group, including the 3.3% win you cited), and she won the popular vote by 2%. Agent Orange still turns the US over to Putin’s control starting in January.

            National polls are only a good indicator of what the national vote will be. So, “from the beginning” you were “claiming” just exactly what every other political operative was saying. Congratulations, you are a follower.

            I just searched for “hillary pay polls” and found nothing about her “admitting” anything. There was one minor item late in the cycle about her not paying for polling in Pennsylvania, which seemed an error to the writer. At best, the pay-for-polls is a rumor contradicted by common sense. Why pay people to lie to you? It’d be like trusting anything that YOU say here.

            Like I keep saying, go get some professional help. You can’t tell what’s real and what you dream that Agent Orange is whispering in your ear.

          • InformedVoter says:

            As usual you got it wrong! I was out front saying the national polls were useless, but you kept insisting they told the accurate picture. I even pointed out, from the start, that many of the state polls were faked, in an attempt to discourage voters from voting for President Trump. You guys mocked me and claimed my poll links were junk!
            President Trump, with or without HilLIARy’s paid for fake polls, still received a MANDATE from the voters.
            And even Obama is on record saying HilLIARy blew it. He is on record saying he would have won a third term, but HilLIARy paid the wrong folks.
            Yup, President Trump PERSONALLY saved 5800 jobs and PERSONALLY helped create another 50000.
            Consumer Confidence is higher than anytime since 2004.

          • johninPCFL says:

            As usual, you’re lying. I claimed national polls told a national picture. Hillary was ahead in the national polls and won the popular vote. Those are facts.

            The only mandate Agent Orange received was from president Putin to do his bidding if elected. That starts in January.

            Businesses create jobs to get their products and services out the door profitably. Those businesses take great care in hiring, because hiring too many, or hiring the wrong type of people leads to the failure of the business.

            There is only one form of governance where the president of the country controls which businesses hire how many people. It is not Capitalism. Agent Orange has already started changing America into Putin’s plaything.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Your typical response: “I’m the one lying”, but the truth (there’s a word you can’t handle), is just the opposite.
            I told you national polls were worthless and you claimed the national polls were the ONLY polls to look at. Well, how did that lie work out for you!
            You also claimed the recount in WI, on day one, had uncovered 50000 votes for HilLIARy that didn’t get counted. Duh, how did that lie work out for you?

            YES, President Trump’s intervention PERSONALLY saved/created 55800 jobs! Still awaiting your lies about how many jobs Obama PERSONALLY saved/created.

            And, since Russia probably didn’t have ANYTHING to do with the hacking (not even all the 3-letter government agencies, who are Obama’s lapdogs agree it was the Russians), your comments about President Trump being controlled by Putin are nothing but opinions that have already been proven to be LIES, but that’s your source of information.

            It is more apparent that HilLIARy is beholding to foreign countries because of the large amount contributions they made for her pay to play. Even a pardon from Obama can’t save HilLIARy from that investigation and ultimately getting charged with accepting bribes and treason.

            Just look for the safe room and go have a good cry.

          • johninPCFL says:

            Once again, the internet shows you to be the biggest liar here. Which post shows that I said anything at all about trusting the national polls? Your moronic claims are shown ever single day to be concoctions in your mind. You need professional help.

            I linked a report that showed Trump overvotes in WI, liar.

            It’s good that Agent Orange has already personally intervened in the operations of private companies? Which political system is it in which the president dictates the internal operations of private companies? Maybe you needed to take civics in high school after all. Apparently you skipped that class and missed the part where it’s not “capitalism”.

            Both the CIA and the FBI alerted to the Russian hacking, starting in the summer of 2015.Agent Orange doesn’t need security briefings to tell him that, he’s already gotten the download from Manafort and Tillerson. He knows exactly what Putin wants him to do, and will do it.

            Go get some help. You really need it.

          • InformedVoter says:

            Why do you keep insisting on denying that you claimed that the national polls are the ones to watch? Over and over, that’s all you kept posting – “national polls showed HilLIARy with 2% lead (lie-they showed 4%) and she won by that margin”. If you hadn’t kept claiming the national polls were correct, then why do you keep referring to them? Once more, you’ve been outed as a consistent liar.

            You posted, like Eleanore and others, that on day one of the WI recounts, that they already found 50000 more votes for HilLIARy. I told you then that was a lie, yet you insisted on that fact! In the end, the WI recount gave President Trump a larger margin of victory.

            To have an elected official personally get involved in private businesses has been done for decades! What rock have you lived under?
            You were complaining that incentives are paid up front (don’t bother to deny your claims on that). Hence, whether it’s a governor or senator or some other elected official who PERSONALLY got involved, it doesn’t matter. SO, who missed civics class? Apparently it was you. It was probably one of those excused absences because you were upset about something and the school let you have a day off to cry.

            And the three letter agencies still HAVE NOT PROVED it was the Russians. But if it was, what did charlatan in chief, Obama, do about it? Zip. He was OK with it when the fake polls showed that HilLIARy was in the lead. You know, the same national polls you claimed you never quoted about!

            And what about Obama donating $385000 to support a change in government in Israel? And what about Deb W-S and HilLIARy conspiring to fix the primaries? Yes, powers do mess with elections.

            You continue to demonstrate that you’re in meltdown mode and live in self-denial. You say I need help, well it would appear that you’re desperately in need of one of those crying rooms. Who knows, you might find Rachel Madcow and Chris Matthews there too. Then the three of you can have a good cry and think of another excuse why the Dems have self-destructed.

            Have you heard the latest from HilLIARy? Now she claims she never wanted to run in the first place! No wonder you feel so free about lying, you learned it from her!

          • johninPCFL says:

            Facts, dumbshit, facts. I didn’t keep posting “over and over” before the election, only after when Hillary got 2% more of the national vote than Agent Orange. Your lies overwhelm you, loser.

            Once again, you claim that I’m responsible for someone else’s posts. What an ignorant liar you are. The fact that I posted was a link that showed that the elections officials in WI had overvotes for Agent Orange. Once again, you are outed as a liar.

            Dumbshit, I never claimed that the incentives were paid upfront, only that once started they’d not stop. Just like every other incentive set that’s ever been granted. Once again you just lie because you can’t tell the truth.

            In short, you lie more and more often than Agent Orange. His record stands at a lie every five minutes of speaking. Congratulations.

          • InformedVoter says:

            It’s obvious you’re in meltdown mode and in self-denial. You can’t help it. You trying to defend Obama’s failings and refute President Trump’ successes are doomed from the start. Once one starts lying, it’s difficult to keep your made up facts straight. You have been caught in your own web of lies.
            Alas, it’s not entirely your fault. You have been brainwashed by the MSM and can’t determine truth from fiction.

          • johninPCFL says:

            I’m not the one caught in a web of lies. That’s you dumbshit. You can’t keep you own lies straight, much less tell truth from fiction. All you can do is puke up what Putin tells Agent Orange to tell you.

            “To have an elected official personally get involved in private businesses has been done for decades!”:So it’s OK with you that Agent Orange’s first act, before even taking office, was to pull a straight Politburo move, huh? Great. Putin already owns you then.

          • InformedVoter says:

            You can deny all you wish, but, in this case, the truth did you in. You have been measured and found to be wanting.

            And yes, I’m OK with the long established practice that those in elected power actually do something personally to make the world a better place.

            In Obama’s case, he just spent hundreds of millions on personal trips and extended vacations for his family, all the while saying “some will have to put up with a smaller piece of the pie so others may have some pie”! What a joke. And you just lapped it up.

            All the lies to keep telling truly demonstrates your low information status.

            And, once more, the 3-letter agencies DON’T agree that it was the Russians. It’s the ass-kissing agencies that are claiming that, meanwhile, the others are just sitting back and watching the fools makings asses of themselves (can you say Kerry?).

          • johninPCFL says:

            “Measurement” by a loser like you is laughable.

            OK with the central government takeover of business? Great. Welcome to Putin’s paradise, ruled by Agent Orange.

            “hundreds of millions” is a laughable exaggeration perpetrated by the liars you suck on. No more than the “hundreds of millions” spent by GWB in his travels.

            The FBI and CIA both now say strong evidence exists that Russia did the hacking. The only ones claiming anything else are Putin, Agent Orange, and their minions (like you.)

          • InformedVoter says:

            You can do the math yourself. Obama spent in excess of $24 million for his daughter’s Bahamas birthday.
            Obama spent north of $100 million for his African vacation.
            I can continue with his list of excesses, but since I’m already over $100 million, I stick to my original post of “hundreds of millions”.. And you are naive enough to think these excesses would show up on his tax returns.

            AND BTW, your good buddy Mark Fields, the CEO of Ford Motor, just announced that Ford had CHANGED their plans to spend $700 million on a plant in Mexico and will now spend that $700 million in MI. AND with this change, 700 new, union, working class jobs will be created in MI instead of Mexico.
            President Trump tweeted GM and told them to get with the program and GM is now crying foul that he’s giving Ford special treatment. Oh my, a president actually getting involved in creating/saving jobs. What a new idea.

            They have “strong” evidence, yet they can’t and haven’t produced anything that could be construed as evidence.
            Obama was OK with whoever did the hacking because he thought HilLIARy would win. Now he’s claiming foul. What about his $385000 he donated to influence the Israel election? What about Deb W-S and HilLIARy conspiring to fix the DNC primaries? Obama had no problem with that did he?

            And you claim I’m a minion? Look in the mirror and wipe Obama’s turds off your nose.

          • johninPCFL says:

            You continue to be as idiotic as ever. Maybe you should just quit while you’re behind (or a behind?)

            I tried googling the $24 million birthday bash and got zero links. So, just another bullshit lie by you. I also googled $100 million africa trip and found that the costs were about the same as when Clinton or GWB went there.

            Fields was quite public in saying that Agent Orange had nothing to do with the plant change. It seems like the low production rate of small cars coupled with the $5.9B borrowed from the DoE to build electric vehicles in the US were the deciding factors in retasking the US plant. It seems that the DoE money (you know, from the US government, part of the $15B Ford borrowed at the same time as GM and Chrysler to stay alive) had some strings attached.

            Obama warned both campaigns in June of 2015 that hacking was taking place. Oddly, only the democratic emails were released even though the GOP was also hacked. I guess Putin liked what he smelled in Agent Orange.

          • Still as belligerent, uninformed, and block-headed as ever. It’s amusing to review some of your posts from the past. Not one iota have you deviated from your pattern of hostility, and sycophantic behavior on behalf of the false god of conservatism and in your worship and man-love for Trump.

            Conservatism will do that to you, so you would do well to take a breather, clear your head and heart of the toxic waste you’ve accumulated over the past 8 years, try and replace the toxins with some spirituality, then see what happens.

            You may find yourself better prepared to face the after-life where success depends more on how much spiritual virtues you’ve accumulated, and not depend at all on your political toadiness during your earthly stint spent mostly as a curmudgeon.

            There is only One God, uninformed one, and Trump is not God. The worship of more than the One God is polytheism and is forbidden according to one of the 10 Commandments, remember? And you have demonstrated a unique brand of polytheism by your excessive worship of yourself and concern mostly for your own well-being(not unlike Trump), your political views, etc.

            Did you know that the worship of idols goes beyond just the worship of a stone image? It encompasses the obsession with a political point of view, with repeatedly following a negative pattern of behavior, and excessive attention to one’s views.

            On top of a brand of unique idol-worship you subscribe to, you are deplorably short in the department for expressing any sort of empathy for others and have never shown a degree of connection with anyone else on the planet—again, all because you are so infatuated with yourself, your political views, and obsessing over how to take care of #1 in your life—YOU!

          • InformedVoter says:

            Me belligerent? Not hardly. In fact it is you and your name-calling crowd that are the angry protesters. You claim you are the compassionate crowd, but if someone disagrees with you, like the election that resulted in a mandate for President Trump, you start name-calling, bullying, protesting, burning.
            Your crowd is so brainwashed and close-minded that you don’t have the intellect to accept a different point of view.
            President Trump was not my first choice, nor even my second choice. But look what the Dems put up; a socialist and a liar, who was proven to be unqualified and dishonest.
            So, yes, knowing that low information fools like you would vote for the unqualified and dishonest person, I, in good faith, voted for President Trump.
            This is not idol worshiping, but you have certainly shown that your religion is fake. One does not have to believe in your religion to know the truth and proper path.
            HilLIARy used deplorable to describe the wrong side, it’s you low information bigots that are the deplorable ones.

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