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Wednesday, September 28, 2016

The flap over President Barack Obama’s “you didn’t build that” gaffe — playing endlessly in TV ads and sure to be a major theme of the Republican National Convention in late August — is at once sillier and more significant than it seems.

It’s sillier because fair-minded observers — including neutral fact-checking referees — agree that the president’s words are shamelessly being taken out of context. For Romney to base so much of his campaign on bogus editing is lame.

Yet the uproar is significant because — properly framed — this election offers a stark choice between do-it-yourself libertarianism and Whig capitalism, between Ayn Rand and Warren Buffett.

Here’s what the president actually said in Roanoke, Virginia, on July 13:

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

Obama’s awkward “that” referred to “roads and bridges,” not businesses. But the president wasn’t at his best that day, to put it mildly. He needed to match his point about collaborative success with paeans to those he saluted in his inaugural address (and in many other speeches) as “the risk takers, the doers, the makers of things.” His failure to bring business executives into his White House and use them as surrogates means he has to handle damage control on his own, which looks bad.

  • Obama is right you did not build your business, you had help from banks, The banks loan you he money but the bank get the money from the federal government You have workers who help you make your business successful. Government plays a part in each business created, though small business, or big businesses. How else did you get the money to start your business.

    • montanabill

      Sorry ladyj, I built a fine business without a single bank loan, government loan, family loan or any other kind of loan other than the loan of time and patience from my family. Of course I have workers. I hire them, train them, pay them and provide a very good benefit package. The major part government plays is obstructionism. P.S. I had saved the $300 it took to start my business, now a nationwide concern. And banks get their money from depositors, like me.

      • nobowtie

        These workers that you hired, did you teach them how to read and right, spell correctly. Did you teach them that Toranto is in canada so that if they needed to travel there on business they would know where they were when they got there. And as Obama said, did you create the roads and bridges your products or raw materials went over to enable you to make a living? No, I am sure you did all that yourself. Curb your ego!

        • montanabill

          If any of them has told me that Toranto was in Canada, they would be working for someone else. Since you think government was responsible for my success, you must be equally successful, no?

        • Did you learn to spell at a public school? Sorry dude, you really should proofread or use your spellcheck.

        • NutCutter

          Most of my employees received their education from the Mexican government…I guess Mexico was the creator of my business?

          • joyscarbo

            Wow, Nut! That’s one great big, illogical and idiotically stupid leep that you just took!
            So…I assume you hire aliens from Mexico? And I assume they are all “legal,” so that you’re doing legal business? And I assume that you’re paying them at least your state’s minimum wages? And that they have a benefits package as well? You know what that is: health insurance and such? They can file L&I claims for injury without being fired?

          • JackieAllen

            Who is the idiot here??? You assume too much. YOu
            need to go to government services and get an
            understanding of what illegals do and do not receive
            here in the States.

          • joyscarbo

            And yet you FAILED to answer even ONE OF MY QUESTIONS about what kind of employer you are!!! I guess I don’t have to wonder what kind of employer you really are to illegal aliens.

      • annienoel

        and you built the roads which bring the goods to your place, or the customers…or whatever? And you educated..by yourself…you and your employees? You
        DID NOT build your business by yourself. If your employees knew the ABC’s you didn’t educate them.

        • montanabill

          I worked to pay for my own education. No family help, no government loans, no scholarships. My employees had to be trained for my business by my business. It was not anything they could get in school. Before you say, reading, writing and math, remember that they could just have easily learned their basis skills at home or private school, and probably better.

          • Just to inform you of the fact I believe I am older than you and as I also worked to pay for my education even though my parents offered to pay for it in the end I did have to use their help because at $1.40 the current minimum wage at that time did not allow me to make enough money in my summer vacations to pay for college regardless of where I attended school. The Dept. of Education did not become an entity until 1979 under Jimmy Carter. My son who worked all through high school is still burdened by the debt he needed to take on in order to attend college. He received several grants in aid, work study, and other forms of help. So pardon me if I just do not believe your story. I find too many inconsistencies in it. Unless you were mittey himself, who by the way, had daddy give him $40,ooo worth of stock he could sell to get him by (the same amount adjusted for inflation as almost $300,000 in today’s money) I can not believe your made up story. If in fact you had this “company” you claim you would be so proud to tell us it’s name and we could would be able to research it’s success ourselves. The let’s speak about your so called clients for this business. You know of course where they all made the money they use to purchase your product? Of course you do not so to say that the government absolutely can not and does not play any role except to hinder you is total Bull S***T.
            I believe you either a paid Republican troll or a college student doing a project for school here. Either way you do a great disservice to the ordinary reader and poster on this thread.

          • montanabill

            Minimum wage was $1.00 when I started working, but was in effect only for companies that did interstate business. I started my first business when I was junior in high school (not counting selling papers on the street or paper routes). I don’t mix politics with my business and I have a closely held companies, so I will not divulge their names. You can believe or not believe. It took me eight years and numerous colleges. I worked summers and, during college, evenings from 7-midnight. Occasionally I would have to lay out a semester to earn enough to keep going. During the latter stages and graduate school, I worked full time night shift while supporting a wife and two children.
            If you think government is here to help you run or start a business, I would encourage you to try. The real world will quickly become apparent.

          • joyscarbo

            How convenient Bill, you won’t disclose your business.
            The fact that you can’t voice one ounce of gratitude to your own country for creating a system that allows you to continue to be successful in your multi-state business is really pathetic and short-sighted.

          • montanabill

            The country that allowed me to start (and sometimes fail) businesses, is not the same country that we have today. I believe I’m joined in that sentiment by other individuals who created successful businesses but don’t believe it could be done today, such as Bernie Marcus of Home Depot. Instead of trying to denigrate the individuals who built the businesses that employ most Americans and have provided the U.S. with a standard of living second to none (until recently), why aren’t you asking, ‘Why have we stopped?’ ‘What would it take to get the risk takers active again?’ Do you really think that today’s economic climate it is not government’s fault? Do you really think the bunch running the country today has the slightest idea of what takes to even start and run a hot dog stand? Why don’t you try so that you will have first hand knowledge of what our potential entrepreneurs are up against.

          • joyscarbo

            You lived in the 20’s how many businesses- both large and small- failed because of the depression? Economies rise and fall.
            No one is denigrating small business owners.

          • montanabill

            I didn’t live in the 20’s, but I do know one individual who is denigrating business owners and he lives in the White House.

          • joyscarbo

            Bill…I know a guy who is out there making your republican party look like a large collection of idiotic, racist jerks.
            You can’t really be supporting Mitt Romney…are you? He’s a nightmare of a candidate. He’s been FOR everything that he’s been AGAINST. He’s now in Isreal, promising them that our country would back a unilateral strike against Iran if they chose to do so. Who is ready to pay for yet another damned war??!!! He also praised Isreal for their nationalized healthcare- something I’m quite certain you’re agianst. Additionally, he said that Palestinians make less money because of their inferior culture. So he’s making racist statements that make him look like an ass. Even Bush and Cheney are skipping the RNC because they don’t want to be associated with Romney. He’s not going to win and you have to know that.
            Personally, I can’t wait for the debates. You can say whatever you want about Obama but he’s a far more intellegent and he is keenly articulate. Mitt inspires ire…Obama inspires the people. Just because a guy can make lots of money doesn’t make him a good presidential candidate. If that were so, the guy that created “Girls Gone Wild,” would be running too, along side the guy who created the “Pet Rock,” and the “Snuggy.” Mark my words now…Mitt Romney will seal his own fate as a complete political failure when Obama decimates him in the debates. Romeny and your party has NO place in America. It’s WAY too right and the people will rise against this neo-conservative theocracy again.

          • montanabill

            I’ll admit that Romney would not be close to my first choice for a candidate, but since the choice will be between him and Obama, there is no choice. The fact of the matter is that Obama should never have been elected President. The only thing, and I mean the only thing, he knows how to do is give a good teleprompter speech. I know you wish dearly that he was something else, but he isn’t. He does not inspire me nor most of the people I know simply because they know he is an empty suit with a far left ideology and his words are empty. He does not have the real world experience of growing up in American or know its history. He has absolutely no idea how business or our economy work, and neither do the people who surround him. Fortunately, he has some fairly decent people helping him in the international affairs area, because his initial forays were ridiculous and Putin is still laughing. Romney will be a more pragmatic President than you think and if you really want this depression to end allowing people to get back to work and the middle class to return, he will be the only choice. It should be quite clear, that after four years, Obama either still doesn’t know what to do to get the economy moving or simply is too ideologically driven to admit there is another way. Romney hasn’t been successful at every task he has attempted by being a dummy or a go it alone type. As far as the Palestinians are concerned, over the years they have made their choices. They should pay heed to Einstein’s definition of crazy.
            By the way, what is a ‘neo-conservative theocracy’?

          • joyscarbo

            I’d like to suggest that you live on an island by yourself and see how successful your business is. You’re a very short sighted man

          • montanabill

            And I suggest you try to start a business so you can have some first hand, real experience.

          • joyscarbo

            I have no desire to start a business.
            But you can’t live alone on an island and peddle your wares or services to ONLY YOURSELF and be successful. Is this the hill you’ll die on before you give up your arrogant and false sense of self importance because you started a business? There are many people who have done greater things that left this earth without a dime….Jesus Christ is one. Another is Ghandi, Mother Teresa….money doesn’t make you great. How you live your life and give back to your fellow man does.

          • montanabill

            Here’s the irony, joy, none of the people you mentioned asked a thing of government.

          • joyscarbo

            Are you kidding, Bill? I can’t believe of man of your experience and education doesn’t know these men…

            Jesus often spoke rebuked the actions of the Scribes and the Pharisees. Jesus told the self-righteous leaders of the ruling hierarchy of His day, “If I had not come and spoken unto you, you would not be guilty of sin, but now I have come and EXPOSED you, so you have no covering for your sin!”–John 15:22.

            Mahatma Gandhi, was the preeminent leader of Indian nationalism in British-ruled India. Employing non-violent civil disobedience, Gandhi led India to independence and inspired movements for non-violence, civil rights and freedom across the world. Clearly, his life was create positive change through his government.

            While Mother Teresa was not one to ask for money from any government in favor of having incredible faith that, “God will provide,” she did ask for those in power to help in her plight to her singular purpose: to give comfort and care to the most impoverished and needy. While visiting SanFrancisco in 1989, she found an vacant building and made a late night surprise visit to then Mayor Agnos to inquire about making this vacant building a homeless shelter. Agnos promised to investigate the building first thing in the morning. She said, “The work of God cannot wait until tomorrow morning.” Jelani House is still there and serves the poor, homeless and drug addicted.

            Government can do great things when people like Jesus Christ, Ghandi and Mother Teresa inspire them to charitable acts.

          • montanabill

            The government during Jesus time was Roman controlled. Jesus did not get involved in those affairs. Gandhi lead a movement (like the tea party) for freedom and was not involved with the British controlled government only requesting relief from it. Mother Teresa did not demand the government do anything for her. She was responsible for her own charity work. Our government was not established to do charity work, but to provide a framework where it could exist and work freely. You seem to be mistaking vote buying with charity.

          • jarheadgene

            I have looked through most of your posts and you seem to have missed the point. You are not an Island you did not build what you have ALL by YOURSELF. And you have jumped from small business Issues to HUGE CORP’s Issues…i.e., Home Depot. Now you are asking what happened

            We Went to 2 wars and for the first time in the history of the U.S. did not raise taxes to fund them.

            That did not stop us from giving BILLIONS $$$$ to no bid contractors..Halliburton/KBR
            Thanks DICK.

            I agree with lot of what you say but for too long the middle class has been paying, more than it’s fair share for all gov’t services. It’s time the ROMNEY’s of the WORLD PONY UP!

          • montanabill

            You and the rest seem to get a kick out of saying I and other business owners didn’t build what we have all by ourselves. Technically, you are right. Would that business have been started, would it have grown without the individual(s) who had the courage, determination and skills to make it happen? Many businesses can continue without their founders if the right people succeed them. For example, in the case of Apple, when Jobs left the first time, the company was nearing death until he stepped in again. Did the employees save it? Did government save it? Did roads and bridges save it? No. It was simply one person who built it and revived it. Now we shall see if the next set of people can keep it going this time.
            I notice you are willing to castigate Cheney because he had a relationship with Haliburton, but no mention of GE, Solyndra and numerous other Obama donators who got BILLIONS? One final thought. I would suspect that one year of Romney’s taxes exceed what you make in a lifetime. So is he ‘ponying up’?

          • jarheadgene

            SUPER BILL….didn’t the people here school you enough. Nice euphemism there “Relationship with Halliburton.” People that receive the National Memo know better about CHENEY. As for GE….they hedge their bets on both sides. Solyndra….an action Bush had in planning but never took action…President Obama acted on it, mistake I think , but I can let that one go. I’ve stated before why. MOVE ON…OH.. Apple…you are barking up the wrong tree on that one….ALL APPLE PRODUCTION IS DONE IN FOXCONN CHINA…..they pay the people that put those $1,700.00 computers and $600.00 IPad3 and $200.00 IPod Touches ARE YOU READY….$1.78 per hour. Now, you want to talk Bill Gates vs Stephen Jobs…you are on a losing GREEDY argument there.
            And yes so what, One of Romney’s tax years exceeds what I will make in a lifetime, UNLESS he PAID $0.00 like Sen. Reid claims. But what you should think about is that he didn’t pay 20% of his pay, and still deal with a heavily disabled child like I do. And that is why he won’t release his tax returns. He probably is really payin 3 to 4% overall. HIS GREED WILL SHOW how shameful he really should be if he ever releases his returns….DOUBT IT ….HIGHLY DOUBT IT. SO…..as to your comment NO…he is not ponying up. It is about PERCENTAGES Bill…PERCENTAGES….PERCENTAGES….not totals.
            SUPER BILL who does all and know all by himself…..be aware there is a GOD in heaven that looks upon man…..waiting to forgive him for all his arrogance and greed and covetousness, even you can be forgiven for your sin….all you gotta do is ask.

          • montanabill

            I wouldn’t call the columnists at the National Memo unbiased or exactly truthful, so any take they had on Cheney would require a load of skepticism.
            You need a closer look at GE’s record since Welch left.
            There was a reason Bush didn’t fund Solyndra. His people looked at the numbers. Obama acted on it because of his donors at Solyndra.
            So don’t buy Apple products. The argument was whether Jobs created and was the soul of the company that made it great, not about their business operation. Production didn’t change when he retired the first time.
            There was no Gates vs Jobs argument. Personally, my feeling is that Jobs was a visionary while Gates was a marketing genius, but short on technical skills.
            Perhaps you would like to think a little. Find out a little about Bain’s profit, Romney’s share of it and the tax code, and then you tell me what loopholes and deductions Romney could have used to get a zero liability. If you find them, I could sure use them.

          • jarheadgene

            Well a lot of Romney’s ability to drive his tax down to a $0.00 liabiltity was if he claimed he took heavy losses in the fallout of 2008-2009. That also may be how he built an IRA to $100,000,000.00 (one hundred million) if he deposited stocks in his IRA that he undervalued, or they were already undervalued due to the crash. He could still get under or up to the maximum allowable deposit. When the value of the stocks return…..WHAMMMM!
            his IRA value jumps in value exponentially. With Bain he could have done a lot with stocks and bonds to create huge markdowns and values that make it look (on paper) as if he was
            going broke…or broke already thereby creating his own huge tax liability.
            You missed the point about Jobs and Apple…he and Steve Wozniak founded apple and went to the bank for loans to start up…the banks said no…at first….but they made friends and investors that helped them get going. Jobs didn’t even do it alone…and then to keep cost
            way ….way done he had all mfg. done in China….cheap, but their product are still way overpriced compared to their competition.
            The real argument hear is WHERE ARE WILLARDS TAX RETURNS? He doesn’t want to show them, because ….legal or not…..his returns will expose how horribly slanted the tax codes are written in favor of the RICH. Are the MONETARILY RICH (in this country) paying their fair share in taxes….95% of Americans polled yesterday say NO! So you can go on with all the smoke screens the GOP puts up for you to believe like the birthers and the “he’s a muslim” crowd (As if that would mean anything anyway…WILLARD is a Mormon) but the truth is…..WILLARD will lie one second after the other and change his position one second after the other on EVERYTHING. He is a draft-dodger …here is the worst thing…I have seen pictures where he is in crowds protesting “IN FAVOR” of the Vietnam war and then takes several differments to go off to PARIS as a mormon recruiter.
            CHENEY took 6 differments and then joined Nixon’s staff and then enjoyed making money off of the war in Vietnam. BOTH want to see us go to war in IRAN…..THEY CAN HEAR the CASH REGISTER (theirs) RINGING allready. And the GOP coming up with new JIM CROW voting laws to try and rig the elections…..AGAIN. SHAME SHAME SHAME on ALL of the GOP for not crying out against that farce. Talk about being UN American….robbing people of their right to vote……That is about as unAmerican as you can get.

          • montanabill

            Congratulations. How about sending that analysis to Whuthesaid?
            I think I hit my point on Jobs. I would agree that no one actually builds a company alone, but without the inspiration, the desire, the willingness to sacrifice a lot of your life and the vision, it won’t happen, no matter how many other people there are or the infrastructure available. That was demonstrated when Jobs stepped down the first time. Everything was still in place and a supposedly capable person took his title, but it didn’t work. I don’t think it would have worked if Woz had stayed and Jobs left. When Jobs returned, it worked again. Now, Apple is probably on the same course as the first time when Jobs left.
            Romney’s tax returns are a distraction and you know it. Sure he’s rich. Sure he used the tax code, just as most of us would have. Did he do anything wrong? I don’t hear any allegations of that made by anyone who would know better. The 95% you speak of have no idea what the tax code is. The majority of them believe the nonsense about ‘loopholes and big deductions’ for the rich, simply because none of them have ever had to face the taxes on a large income. The 95% also don’t realize the total percentage of the tax revenue that the rich pay.
            I’m not a birther, but I do wonder how a self-admitted stoner got into Occidental, Columbia and Harvard without a sterling record. One possible explanation is that he registered as a foreign exchange student. He needs to release his records.
            The draft dodger and religious stones are being thrown in a glass house.
            JIM CROW? Do you want legal, alive citizens to vote or is it okay for the dead and the illegal to vote? Shame of DNC for trying to poison our elections.

          • Dave_dido

            Bill, I suggest you go to the top of this National Memo thread and click on Jim Hightower. Read his article about Sandy Weill. Then come back to this thread and tell us again that the wealthy do not rig the system to benefit themselves.
            Stop blaming the poor and the welfare recipients and the Medicaid recipients. As St. Augustine said, “There, but for the grace of God, go I.” Anyway, with your millions, it’s unseemly for you to point your finger at the poor and downtrodden.
            President Bush gave $800 billion, that’s billion with a “b”, to bail out Wall Street just before he made his exit. How many welfare cheaters do you think it would take to defraud the taxpayers of $800 billion? I’ll let you do the math.
            The way Mitt Romney was able to set up a $200,000,000 tax shelter for his children, is through a loophole that has to do with “future earnings”. Do you think this loophole was put in the tax code to benefit letter carriers, teachers, or Walmart clerks? I find it hard to believe that you can be so naive about how lobbying(bribing) works in Washington and in every state capitol. These are not poor people doing the lobbying.
            Just as a sidelight, Eric Prince of Blackwater Securities made over $1billion off the U.S. taxpayers for the work he contracted for in Iran. His family was one of Pres. George W. Bush’s top campaign funders. Now tell us again that our elected officials are not owned by wealthy interests. It’s money that is ruining our democracy and the poor aren’t the ones holding it. So I say, if the wealthy are paying 68% of all the taxes paid in the U.S., well that’s as it should be and maybe it’s not even enough. It’s their system, they’re the ones benefitting the most from it- let them prop it up. Otherwise, quit taking away the power of the people. One man, one vote.Right. Tell that to Sheldon Adelson.

          • montanabill

            If you are a student of history, you know that the rich have always had significant influence on government. That isn’t going to change, and it certainly hasn’t changed under Obama.
            You seem to have a tendency to read your biases into my writing. Just where have I pointed my finger at the poor and downtrodden? I will say that from own personal experiences at being poor and downtrodden, if you want that to change, there is only one person who can do anything about it, and its not President Obama.
            Please don’t try to equate Romney’s situation with teachers or Walmart clerks. His children will obviously benefit from his success, with or without what you consider to be a ‘tax shelter’. And that tax shelter is available to any Walmart clerk who has equivalent funds, so it is not special to him. You should also note that personally created fortunes tend to be dissipated within a few generations.
            Lobbyists in Washington? They didn’t go away when Obama was elected. Compare his campaign promises with the lobbyists actually a part of his White House.
            Did Prince make money off of taxpayers? Did Brian Henderson (Solyndra) make money off taxpayers? Sure. Is it right? No. However, if you think that the wealthy are going to pay a disproportionate share of taxes without having an appropriate share of the say, you are living in a dream world.
            The people will only have equal power when their share is equal. When 50% don’t contribute, don’t expect them to ever have any say. They are takers, not contributors.
            I didn’t know Sheldon Adelson had more than one vote? I learned something.

          • jarheadgene

            SUPER BILL….didn’t the people here school you enough. Nice euphemism there “Relationship with Halliburton.” People that receive the National Memo know better about CHENEY. As for GE….they hedge their bets on both sides. Solyndra….an action Bush had in planning but never took action…President Obama acted on it, mistake I think , but I can let that one go. I’ve stated before why. MOVE ON…OH.. Apple…you are barking up the wrong tree on that one….ALL APPLE PRODUCTION IS DONE IN FOXCONN CHINA…..they pay the people that put those $1,700.00 computers and $600.00 IPad3 and $200.00 IPod Touches ARE YOU READY….$1.78 per hour. Now, you want to talk Bill Gates vs Stephen Jobs…you are on a losing GREEDY argument there.
            And yes so what, One of Romney’s tax years exceeds what I will make in a lifetime, UNLESS he PAID $0.00 like Sen. Reid claims. But what you should think about is that he didn’t pay 20% of his pay, and still deal with a heavily disabled child like I do. And that is why he won’t release his tax returns. He probably is really payin 3 to 4% overall. HIS GREED WILL SHOW how shameful he really should be if he ever releases his returns….DOUBT IT ….HIGHLY DOUBT IT. SO…..as to your comment NO…he is not ponying up. It is about PERCENTAGES Bill…PERCENTAGES….PERCENTAGES….not totals.
            SUPER BILL who does all and know all by himself…..be aware there is a GOD in heaven that looks upon man…..waiting to forgive him for all his arrogance and greed and covetousness, even you can be forgiven for your sin….all you gotta do is ask.

          • MRD1056

            So if you went to college government helped you cause government created colleges!!! How did you get to your various jobs you worked during college? You probably drove there on the roads that government built and maintains.
            You are just anti-Obama and that is why you won’t admit government helps anyone. If a Republican was in the White House you would be singing a different tune! Remember Bush got us into this recession Obama is just trying to get us out! With all your education you should know that consumer spending is what drive economic growth not you so called “risk takers”.

          • montanabill

            Yeah, my mother helped too since she gave me birth. And, like everything else, there is a private version. Two of the colleges I attended were state schools, the other two were private. I’m not denying government has a place, the problem is that too many of you think it is the solution. It is not. If you follow Obama’s logic, then you too would have a very successful business. Try to follow the logic of your consumer spending argument. If there is nothing to buy, consumer spending won’t help. If risk takers didn’t create new products and services, the consumer won’t be tempted to try something new or replace existing goods. If risk takers don’t create businesses, there will be no new jobs and no new money for consumer spending.

          • joyscarbo

            The Dept of Education was created in 1867.

          • totenkatz

            Not today’s Department of Education and not with the oversight and power the current Department of Educations has.

          • totenkatz

            The Department of Educations was proposed by Jimmy Carter in 1979 but wasn’t established until 1980.

          • Dave_dido

            Don’t believe a word Montana Bill says, RVN. He lives in a Tea Party fantasy world where he makes up this alter ego who is the perfect Tea Partier- never takes a penny from the government(although he went to a state school), his products are delivered by carrier pigeon so that he doesn’t have to use government roads but when he does travel overland he builds his own bridges as he goes. He has rejected Medicare even though he’s eligible and pays all his medical bills out-of-pocket.Rejected social security ,too, because it’s a pyramid scheme and not fair to the young people who would have to prop up his entitlement. It’s OK for government to spend a fortune on defense, using your tax dollars to protect his multi-million dollar business, but don’t ever suggest that his tax dollars be used for something that doesn’t directly accrue to him. He is a superman, supermotivated, works 23 hrs. a day 52 weeks per year and therefore would have been successful even had he been born in Timbuktu, Mali to drug-addicted nomads.He’s been from Maine to Spain to Spokane, two county fairs and a bull nuetering. He chews rope, smokes dope, chases bears up trees and bites bumble bees. He is MONTANA, by gawd, BILL!

          • jarheadgene

            You had me laughing out loud Dave……literally.

          • Dave_dido

            Glad you enjoyed it, Gene. Some people in these posts can be so stubborn because of their ideology that we can only laugh at their fabrications.
            I’ve read a number of your posts, and you always make good common sense. Keep up the good work. I think you are a good spokesperson for middle class and working people.

        • montanabill

          Knowing the ABC’s doesn’t make one employable. When I was educated, there was no Dept. of Education. Probably a good thing. I paid for my own education, no loans, no family help, no scholarships. And again I say, since these things made me successful, tell me about your successful business that government created for you.

          • joyscarbo

            Bill…just how old are you?

            “The original Department of Education was created in 1867 to collect information on schools and teaching that would help the States establish effective school systems. While the agency’s name and location within the Executive Branch have changed over the past 130 years, this early emphasis on getting information on what works in education to teachers and education policymakers continues down to the present day.”

            Sounds like you need some more history lessons too. Sounds like you need to step away from Bill O’Reiley, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity….they haven’t been quite honest in their conveying of correct information.

          • montanabill

            Nice try, but you know full well we are talking about the Department of Education as created in 1979.

          • totenkatz

            Nice job of using Google but you really need to understand that until 1980 the federal government had very little to do with funding or running of public schools in anyway. President Carter pushed to have the Department of Education created in order to have more federal control over education and it hasn’t worked very well as you know. So don’t go mixing apples and oranges.

      • ObozoMustGo

        Good morning Montana. It’s astounding how stupid one must be in order to be a committed leftist freak, isn’t it? I laugh my ass off when moron after moron parades around proclaiming you didn’t build the roads or bridges that make your business possible. What they fail to grasp is that…..

        IT WAS PRIVATE PAVING AND CONSTRUCTION COMPANIES THAT BUILT THOSE ROADS AND BRIDGES WITH TAXES PAID BY PRIVATE BUSINESSES AND PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

        WTF is wrong with these people? I am afraid for our country because there is almost no way to cure these fools.

        Have a great day, Montana!

        • It doesn’t seem to me that he is saying government helped every step of the way….why are you trying to make like he did? “If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.” I think he could have picked better wording but anyone that isn’t ‘stupid’ knows where he was coming from…..you just don’t care to admit it.

          • ObozoMustGo

            I did not say those words….. Obozo said them. He knew what he was saying and listening to his tone of arrogance while he said them, he meant exactly what he said. I get that your an Obozo zombie and that you would vote for him even if they had pictures of him performing lewd acts with a minor. After all, he is your messiah.

            Have a nice day!

          • DurdyDawg

            Speaking of ‘lewd’ acts:

            [click to enlarge]

          • ObozoMustGo

            Pretty funny!

          • highpckts

            You are truly deluded! I hope you have your six pack close by when things don’t go your way!

          • Tom_D44

            Barbara – all those people who “helped you along the way” didn’t do it for free. Those are their chosen careers for which they got paid money. And I say chosen because if they don’t make as much money as a guy like Romney because they chose to teach instead, then to each their own. Not every teacher is rich – but then again look at all the Harvard professors – we do know that they can be rich. Likewise not every businessman gets rich – in fact most don’t. And my employees don’t come to work every day as a donation to my success. They come for a paycheck. And, to be honest, most of them don’t want to work a minute more than they have to even if they get paid for it. They come, put in what they need to, get their paychecks and by Monday it’s all gone. I didn’t make them this way – they did.

            And do you know who built that “great american system”? Americans! Hard working, ambitious people looking for success. They built it and only some of it was financed through their own tax dollars which came from their profits and incomes. Government doesn’t sit around inventing things so that we can all be successful. They didn’t say “hey let’s build some roads and maybe someone will invent a car.” Someone invented the car first, created the demand for roads and the Government follwed suit by keeping up with our demand and our expectations. They didn’t invent the internet in order to give companies a tool to market their products. It was the companies who figured out that it could be used that way and some were successful at using it and others were not.

            And Government, at best, only ever partially keeps up with these people’s expectations. I personally have a successful construction company. And the one thing that constantly baffles me is the inadequacy of the building departments. Sure we need regulations, licensing, and minimum code requirements to keep the bad businesses from straying, and I believe in that whole heartedly. But as the enforcer and developers of these rules it always boggles my mind to see how inefficient and rediculous they are in managing the process. They are mindless, thoughtless paper pushers and for some reason are not encouraged to be anything other than that. For the most part it is pretty clear that they don’t understand the industry that they regulate and they forever try to fix compounding problems created by their own “one size fits all” rules with more “one size fits all” rules. And it never works.

          • highpckts

            So what is your point?

        • Private paving construction companies did it all on their own accord? Really? Did they run water and treatment systems out to those ‘private’ companies on their own accord? Bridges, canals and on and on and done on their own accord? Seriously? Police and fire departments and facilities all on their own accord? How did they get all of tax money to complete these tasks…on their own accord?

          • ObozoMustGo

            Lynda: nice to hear from you. I hope you are well today.

            By the way, the water treatment systems, bridges, canals, and on and on… Oh… and machines and pipes and systems and construction equipment that make those things possible……

            WERE ALL BUILT BY PRIVATE BUSINESSES PAID FOR BY TAXES LEVIED ON PRIVATE BUSINESSES AND INDIVIDUALS WHO WORKED AND EARNED THEIR MONEY!!!!! The government only TAKES from the private sector, it does not create.

            Sorry to inform you of this. I hope it doesnt make you depressed this weekend.

            Have a nice day!

          • highpckts

            Just reading your tripe is depressing because I can’t help but think that there are others out there that are as idiotic and uneducated as you! And to think you probably vote!

        • Hey Obozo, I’m just A regular read between the lines American here and I have to tell you that I love election year politics. It really lets you see just how screwed up this country is. When i first heard the now famous line the first thing I thought HUH! Then I did some research and found that it was just poorly spoken.
          The real problem here is Washington is broken and it really doesn’t matter who gets elected President until we get the politics out of there. BTW I am A business owner for nearly 12 yrs now.

          • ObozoMustGo

            Hi Doug. Unfortunately, I’m reasonably certain that it’s impossible to “get the politics” out of politicians… I’m just sayin…. 🙂

            And yes, election year politics are good fun. Too bad so many Americans are more interested in Dancing with the Stars than they are in paying attention to what is happening to their country.

            If we really want to cure our ills in America, we already have the solution. It’s called The Constitution. We need to completely rip down the current post-constitutional government in order to restore it to its proper function and role in our country. I’m not optimistic that this can happen without radical social upheaval, though. I hope I am wrong.

            Have a nice day!

          • highpckts

            Obozo is such a good screen name for you! How long ago was the Constitution written?? We govern on the basis but, by necessity must make adjustments for the times we live in now!

          • ObozoMustGo

            high… the Constitution does not mean whatever you want it to mean just because the times are different. If you want to change it, it even prescribes a methodology by which we can do that called the amendment process. And it was written to say that we have God given rights that government’s can’t take away, but which the primary purpose of that government is the protection of those God given rights. The Constitution is supposed to be the ball and chain around politicians’ legs to keep them from encroaching on our freedoms and liberty. Unfortunately, we live in a post-constitutional era where guys like Bush and Obozo and most members of Congress basically ignore it. Since FDR, the SCOTUS has been ignoring it also in many cases. This is why we are in the position we are in.

            Have a nice day!

          • frivolous01

            I understand exactly what you are saying; it isn’t the politics, per se. It is the partisan politics, the refusal by both parties to cooperate with each other. Our system works well for everyone when both sides cooperate. It provides a system of checks and balances; the right makes sure that the left doesn’t spend on their money helping people and the left makes sure the right doesn’t forget that we have a responsibility to help people that can’t help themselves.

            The partisanship in politics has resulted in a deeply split nation in which cooperation is seen as weakness. It needs to go and we need to remember that everyone, right or left, has an equal voice.

          • highpckts

            Business owner for 45 years and I totally agree! Congress is a broken entity!

        • frivolous01

          Wait a second, that is exactly what government is, we all pay taxes so that the government can use it to provide infrastructure and services. The money doesn’t come from thin air, it is paid by the people. Then that money is used to build bridges, pay cops, pay construction workers, pay teachers, etc. etc. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t government provided services; that is unless you are claiming that the construction companies just volunteered to go out and fix the roads out of the goodness of their hearts?

          • ObozoMustGo

            Hey Friv! What’s up? Hope you are well.

            Well, well, well…. lookey what we have here. A lefty that seems to be, maybe, beginning to possibly get it. You’re half way there, buddy.

            The government produces nothing. It only takes and redistributes. It can only take $$ from the private sector who has created some form of value that others desire or need and which results in the creation of wealth.

            Which came first? The car or the road? You know the answer to that. The car. Which was developed by an individual and whose production was perfected by Henry Ford to make cars available to the masses. It was that development which led the government to make roads. Not the other way around. There are NO examples of it working the other way. For without the private sector pursuing profit through innovation, the government w0uld have no money.

            Have a nice day!

          • frivolous01

            Hey Boze, doing great, hope you are as well! Every once in a blue moon we agree about something, don’t think that means I’m coming over to the dark side : ) In this case I agree, without the private sector there would be no government; the government is supposed to be here to support the people, to provide those things that one person alone cannot provide for themselves, such as infrastructure, educational systems, law enforcement, etc.

          • ObozoMustGo

            Friv… we do agree on some basic things, for certain. I actually think that all of our debates need to be focused on what the proper role of government is under our Constitution. If we dont like what it says, then change it through the established amendment process. But we should not just ignore it make things up to accomodate our wishes of the day. To do so is to ignore the law. And to ignore the law is the first step toward disolution into lawlessness which ultimately leads to tyranny. Unfortunately, that is the road we are on. I am not optimistic that we can avoid as there are too many benefiting from the process.

            Have a great day!

        • highpckts

          Whew! And you vote??? You can’t even understand the simple fact government and business depend on each other, sometimes in the smallest way kinda like your mind!

        • Well said, ObozoMustGo ! And moron after moron cannot be cured (you can’t cure stupid, DUH !)

          • ObozoMustGo

            Got that right, Eduardo! Unforunately, very few of them will ever wake up to know what individual liberty and freedom are. I am a former liberal, but never was a leftist. Left college. Went to work in the real world and grew up 2o some odd years ago. Anyone who wants to read a good recitation on curing one’s self of liberalism, you can read a great book called “The Secret Knowledge” by David Mamet, or “Radical Son” by David Horowitz. Mamet also wrote a short op-ed in the Village Voice entitled “Why I am no longer a brain dead liberal”. Google it. It’s a great read.

            Have a great day!

        • montanabill

          Very true, OMG. They also overlook private schools, private tolls roads, an internet that didn’t exist until recently and a Dept. of Education that didn’t exist until recently. If their premise was true, they would all be successful business builders, right?

          • ObozoMustGo

            Right on, brother Montana! Just like we’d all be rich if the government just went into more debt and borrowed more money. hehehehehehehehehehe ROFLMAO

            Have a great week coming up, my friend!

        • Doug Thomas

          “You act like governments aren’t people, too. Like corporations, eh?! Only they collect money to build the country, not buy it.”

          There is waste in government, beyond doubt, and there has been lots of mismanagement by both parties in this century.

          I have a personal question for you, “ObozoMustGo”, perhaps a couple. Would you be so disrespectful of government and the current president if WP required everyone to use their actual names? And who actually pays you to spend your day posting these diatribes for which you are known?

          President Bush (“W”) isn’t a favorite of mine, but I can’t ever imagine making up such a disrespectful nickname for him as you have for President Obama. Were it my newspaper, your user name would be flagged.

          • ObozoMustGo

            Doug… like I’ve said to others here many times…. I respect the office, not the man. He has no respect for us. He’s an America hater who is intentionally seeking the destruction of traditional American values and culture. He is not stupid, and watching everything he has done in the open, and more importantly behind the scenes, it is clear he is on this path. You all on the left do not see it because you have bought the lies of socialism and redistribution that he preaches. But his real intentions are much more sinister.

            I supposed you’re going to have to just get over it. Obozo the clown-in-chief must be thrown out.

            Have a nice day!

      • Every dollar in our economy started by Federal Government spending. (Money from other sources is called ” counterfit”). Without that you would have to take your cow to a restaurant to trade for your meal. You obviously do not understand the Government’s role. They are the money pump and they replenish all the dollars taken out of circulation by money hoarders.

        • montanabill

          No, John, you don’t understand money. Read history. Learn economics. The only money government produces is phoney money. It is what causes inflation. Find out for yourself why that happens. Learn for yourself why there would be an economy (and was) before government printed its first dollar.

      • Congrats on building a profitable business on your own. How profitable would it have been if you did not have a postal system to use, good roads to get back and forth to clients and work, or the Internet? You did not build or invent any of those. How sure are you that you could have expanded nationwide without them? It is the government that puts fire and safety protection in place. The whole point of what the President said was international roadways, electrical systems, the Internet and more are there because of government support and funding. So you go ahead and take full credit for your business, you earned it. But remember without the government you might still be using horses and buggies to haul products and dependent on volunteer firemen and law enforcement to protect your business.

        • montanabill

          When I started my business and it grew to a pretty good size. Fire and safety protection is way over board, which you would know if you had tried to start a business. Roads are necessary for employees but a substantial number of the roads in my area are private toll roads. President Obama, no matter how you twist it, did not say government provided general national services. He said, directly, that I didn’t build my business. It was not something he said, ‘out of context’. If you accept what you may have concluded he said, then you would have to accept that you are a failure if you also didn’t have a successful business.

          • So billabob who owns these “private toll roads” you speak of and where exactly are they? Not that i think you are spinning a yarn or anything I am just curious. Anyway one other item here for you , who provided your security on a national level? Oh yes you hired your own mercenary force right I forgot.

          • montanabill

            Numerous large cities have expressway authorities. They are government controlled agencies, but not truly government. I fully expect my taxes to pay for the things defined for government to provide in the Constitution. (Providing welfare is not one of them) However, if you think government is here to help you start or run a business, just try it.

          • WhutHeSaid

            Good Lord, enough of your self-serving whoppers already. President Obama was talking about infrastructure — specifically bridges and roads — when he said “you didn’t build that”, and he was correct.

            What we have here are a bunch of greedy revisionists who snorted up my tax dollars like there was no tomorrow, and now try to justify cheating on their debt to the rest of society by telling lie after lie until it seems like they must have tongues built of asbestos.

            Anybody who benefits from the opportunities provided by the U.S. and becomes successful owes a very large part of their success to others. Anyone who denies this is simply a liar. There are many, many successful entrepreneurs who will admit that success would have been much more difficult or even impossible in other countries. Sadly, successful people can turn out to be liars and cheats just as easily as being responsible and honest. We can see the path that you chose.

            Don’t be an imbecile. We all know that there are greedy slugs in this world — that’s nothing new. But coming out in public and telling ridiculous whoppers in some moronic attempt to make greed look noble is the quest of a fool. The public just isn’t that stupid. Save your breath — it seems that hot air is the limit of your generosity.

          • montanabill

            Spin what the President said to suit yourself. He did talk about road and bridges, which we all benefit from, but he also said, very clearly, that we didn’t build our own businesses. And while you thinking about successful entrepreneurs who succeeded in the U.S. while they might not have done so well overseas, think about this: Europe has as good or better roads, better rails and lots of government control, but it is not a good place for entrepreneurs. If government is the answer and that is the direction the Democrats want to take us, how long will the U.S. still be a place of opportunity? Simply, realistically, compare the U.S. of just 30 years ago, with the U.S. of today. Do we still have the same freedoms or have we given them, slowly but surely over to government control?
            I gather you think all businessmen are ‘greedy slugs’ and have gained their success because they took advantage of you. I suspect your very attitude has a lot to do with your position in life.

          • WhutHeSaid

            You sound more foolish every time you speak. You’ve assumed that there is something negative about my ‘position in life’ and also that I think all businessmen are ‘greedy slugs’. I’m doing quite well, thank you, and I’m one businessman who doesn’t claim that I magically created wealth from thin air. There are many others who share my beliefs — much to the dismay of modern day Scrooges.

            No, all businessmen aren’t ‘greedy slugs’ — just the ones who come out here telling whoppers to justify being deadbeats toward the society that offered them the chance at success. 30 years ago you say? Thirty years ago the tax rates were much higher than today, and the forked-tongue revisionists all suffer collective amnesia about President Reagan raising taxes — 11 times. Not only that, but Reagan specifically stated his belief — in no uncertain terms — that wealthy Americans paying lower tax rates than the less fortunate was unreasonable and unfair.

            Further, you would have us believe that a) businesses all fail in Europe, and b) all of Europe has infrastructure at least as good as the U.S. You didn’t say why you limit your flawed observations to Europe only — but the cynical among us might think it’s necessary for you to pick the most favorable scenario for your flawed points.

            Facts are facts, and the fact is that you benefited a great deal from the contributions, hard work, and sacrifice of many other people who were not as stingy or irresponsible. I might add that many of these were Democrats, although you seem to think that only Republicans start successful businesses or wish that their tax burden was lower. Nothing could be further from the truth.

            Everybody would like lower taxes — Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Independents and any mixture thereof, but the difference is that some people are responsible enough to realize that some things are worth paying for. Some even go so far as to be willing to pay for things that don’t benefit them directly, like feeding hungry children — imagine that! Without responsible people who understand what makes a successful society, you wouldn’t be able to flap your ungrateful jaws all over the Internet.

            We all know that there are greedy, selfish people in the world. All I ask is that you don’t make us endure outrageous, self-serving whoppers in a futile attempt to polish the proverbial turd. Be what you want, but for the love of God stop lying about it.

          • montanabill

            I said virtually none of that which means you translated it into your own negative narrative as you read it. Do you even begin to understand that many of us who do well actually directly support the charities we think make a difference? Why do you assume that it only works if government takes money from us in taxes because only they have the ultimate knowledge to decide who gets a distribution? Do you really think that being insulting and a name caller will convince anyone that you are, in any way, a successful businessman?

          • WhutHeSaid

            What makes you think that I’m out here trying to ‘convince’ anyone of my success? You’re the one tooting your own horn all over this forum as if you yourself invented business.

            Charities? Let me ask you this: Were you somebody’s ‘charity’? Did you get your opportunity because somebody felt charitable one day? Or was it more like other people in society made contributions that perhaps you made use of in your own unique way with your own unique ideas? What if nobody likes your idea of business and they all decide they will not donate to you? If I don’t like the car that you drive over roads my tax dollars helped build can I just come and force your vehicle into the nearest ditch?

            Or perhaps you can look at it another way, since you are obviously the most business-savvy individual in the history of mankind: Do your customers get to choose whether or not to ‘donate’ to you for your product or service, choose how much they ‘donate’ and perhaps even decide which person in your company they wish to donate to? Perhaps I don’t wish to ‘donate’ to you, but I’d rather give the janitor $5 for your $200 product. Can’t I just ‘take’ your product or service and decide that I just don’t feel ‘charitable’ this week therefore I don’t need to pay you for your goods at all? I thought not.

            Perhaps you really are the uber-entrepreneur you believe yourself to be, causing the likes of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett to hang their heads in shame in your presence — but you don’t know a damn thing about the purpose of taxes. Nobody is ‘redistributing’ YOUR money — they are collecting what you OWE. Stop acting like you are being unjustly victimized instead of paying your BILLS. Yes, we like to gripe about taxes, and sometimes they seem unjust or too high. If that’s the case by all means join with like-minded people to try to get them lowered. But that’s what you OWE to this society for the benefits that you receive. I’m one of the people in society that you OWE, and I demand that you pay your fair share if you want to use my bridges and roads, emergency services, safety provided by my armed forces, ad infinitum. Do you get it yet?

            It’s one thing to complain about taxes. It’s quite another to rant all over this forum about how you ‘magically’ built the most successful business in history from nothing other than your bright ideas and the lint in your pocket — that’s a load of crap. Try moving to Antarctica and building your ‘magical’ business there, where there is no infrastructure built on hundreds of years of work and contribution by other people and no economy in place to speak of.

          • montanabill

            Clearly, the items you defined are mostly the purview of government. However, the ‘bills I owe’ should not include government payments to people who are capable of working. I do not owe them. You do not owe them. You seem to be part of the large number of people on this forum that don’t believe the American dream is possible or can be achieved by an ordinary person without either luck or a government handout. That is why I tell my story. It can be done. You can do it. It won’t be easy and you don’t have to be smarter than everyone else to do it. But you do have to work and not just 8 hrs. 5 days a week. It is much more difficult now that it was when I started, simply because there hundreds or thousands more regulations and requirements to meet now, and that doesn’t have to be. I started my latest business four years ago, so I know what has changed.

          • WhutHeSaid

            Do your customers get to choose whether the income from your products goes to people they deem ‘worthy’? No, of course not. Once the money changes hands that’s the end of their involvement. The exact same principle applies with taxes: You pay your bill and once you do this your involvement as the as the debtor is over. Owing money to the American public does not entitle you to pick and choose where it goes.

            You DO, however, get to participate in how government works, but there is a process that everyone must follow. If you don’t like government payments going to people who are capable of working you have every right to try to change it by voting, protesting, making contributions to a candidate who shares your views, etc. But you have absolutely no say about what happens to the money you OWE after it is paid, nor can you refuse to pay.

            There’s a difference between a ‘handout’ and a ‘benefit’. There are certain things I’m willing to pay for even if they don’t benefit me directly. I don’t think any child in this country should ever have to go hungry, and I’m willing to part with some of my earnings to make sure they don’t. That’s one ‘handout’ that I can live with; chasing down the parents who aren’t living up to their responsibility is a separate issue. I’m willing to chip in my share for national defense, but I don’t feel the need to have a military that is 100 times more powerful (and expensive) than what is needed. That’s a benefit that’s worthwhile if the cost is kept within reason or is absolutely necessary. You may have different priorities, but yours are not more important than mine or vice versa.

            I’ve been in business a long time, so I know a bit about taxes and regulations. I know that taxes are much lower than they have been in the past. Regulations come and go depending on the industry. Some I agree with, some I don’t. I have to live with it because I’m not the King of the world. So do you. You don’t have to like it, and I can understand if you don’t. All I ask is that you do us all favor and stop claiming that you are being horribly and unjustly persecuted by having to pay your share. And stop claiming that you created wealth out of thin air — it just doesn’t work that way.

          • montanabill

            My customers get to choose whether or not they will buy my product or services. We pay taxes at the point of a gun. You and I may agree that no child should have to go hungry, but we disagree severely on how that should be handled. Our Constitution did not enable the government to provide charity or welfare, but to establish a framework where such operations could be handled by the citizens. Can you deny that the most of the welfare and charity operated by the government is done purely for vote buying? It is not equitable. Government picks winners and losers.
            Frankly, I don’t care if we have a military that is 100 times more powerful than you think is necessary. We may be involved from time to time with two-bit dictators who don’t know their own limitations, but having over-whelming power is the one thing that could keep us from experiencing WW III up-close and personal.
            Since my businesses are all S-Corps or LLC’s, I pay taxes at the personal level, which is the maximum. At that level, there are no deductions other than charitable contributions. I also pay state taxes to seven states. In fact, I really won’t begrudge a 2% increase, IF AND ONLY IF, all citizens that make over the poverty limit are required to pay some income tax which makes them a little more cognizant of what our government is doing with tax money.
            Let’s say I didn’t start a company but simply kept working for a paycheck. Where would the wealth (now investments) and jobs that I created be? Would the roads and bridges created them? Would government have created them? These things were not created out of thin air, they were created because I made them happen. That may sound arrogant to you, but it is reality.

          • WhutHeSaid

            Your customer can choose not to buy your products, yes, but once they’ve decided to buy, tendered payment and taken delivery the transaction is over — they do not get to follow the money around and dictate where it goes and to whom.

            I assume that by ‘the point of a gun’ you refer to law enforcement. The same ‘gunpoint’ protects you from people just coming along and snatching your products away from you. So if you really want to look at it from that angle, the government unfairly forces me to give you money for your products at the threat of ‘gunpoint’. What if I just want your products, but I don’t want to pay for them? Society (read: the public at large) has put a system in place to prevent it. Woe is me — I’m forced by threat of violence to pay you for the products that I take — I get no choice!

            The products and services that you take on a daily basis have a cost as well, and it’s not really that different a concept. You may ‘choose’ to avoid taxes — simply remove yourself from society and realize your dream of being untaxed (I hear Antarctica is nice this time of year).

            Welfare and charity is done purely for vote buying? Not any more than anything else, after all, the very design of an elected government is that elected officials are supposed to behave in ways that make people vote for them. Are oil and gas subsidies any different? There are immense sums of money going to corporations and or wealthy individuals for the same purpose. At least the lower income individual can lay claim to an honest need.

            I’m glad that you chose the example of building a bridge to illustrate your contributions to society, because without many others that bridge would a) not be needed, and b) could not be built. The common working person is the real engine driving the economy. You will need labor to either build that bridge or produce the capital to funds it’s construction. You will need customers for the bridge to have a reason to exist. There is no way in hell that your business runs without customers and labor. Further, it won’t last without protection from those who would just take it away from you by force or stealth. This is a bare minimum of contributions from others — I could go on and on.

            Like I said before, you have every right to dislike the way things are done, and you should vote and contribute accordingly. You willingness to endure a 2% increase based on what you feel is fairness with respect to those who pay very little is a reasonable starting point for debate. You may want to think also about those who are getting unreasonable breaks at the higher end of the scale as well. All I ask is that you realize that you derive many benefits from the rest society — whether you actively seek them out or not — and stop claiming that you create wealth single handed.

          • montanabill

            I’m afraid you have a lot of flawed logic in your arguments, mixing apples and oranges, so to speak. Corporate welfare is no different than citizen welfare, it is still vote buying regardless of the amount. Neither is required by the Constitution. However, in the case of corporate welfare, it is sometimes granted to entice private industry to accept a risk, as in building railroads across the nation.
            I can build a bridge or the government can build a bridge. I can build myself a road or the government can build a road. Neither one of those acts is in anyway going to build my business. If I have a product to sell that other people want, they are going to have to find a way to pay for it. If fact, the government cannot build a bridge or a road without tax money. And that money comes from people who have already found a way to make it.
            How about a nice flat tax? Everybody pays 15% of their income over the poverty level. It wouldn’t be the punishment on successful people that a lot of people seem to clamor for, but high earners would still be paying a lot more than average. In Romney’s case that would be about $3,000,000 per year and more than someone less skilled makes in a lifetime. Under Clinton and Gingrich, government learned to live within a budget. It is way past time for government to relearn that process.
            I will reiterate on your last point. If I didn’t create and manage my business, which created wealth (for quite a few people), who did? And if I hadn’t, would the wealth exist? In fact, if the people who started and ran businesses stopped or had never started, would there be any wealth?

          • WhutHeSaid

            Mixing apples and oranges is perfectly reasonable if your making a fruit salad, as is the case here. There are a lot of different issues.

            The US Constitution does not ‘require’ a lot of things. The purpose of the Constitution is not to spell out in detail what federal and state legislators should enact, rather, it is to give a framework on what the federal government may not do. If the Framers really believed that they knew what laws the federal and state governments should have, they could have just written the laws right there and then.

            That you would attempt to heighten the virtues of ‘corporate welfare’ is telling. Vote-buying is vote-buying, and trying to excuse it under the guise of ‘enticing private industry’ is blatant hypocrisy. There are vices and virtues to any program, and the fact that you are bent towards that which benefits you in particular is no surprise to anyone.

            Don’t talk about how “[You] can build a bridge or the government can build a bridge” unless you can tell me the time and place where I may travel to witness montanabill erecting a bridge with his very own hands using materials and tools he personally fabricated. Anything else is a coordinated effort drawing from many resources — some you pay for directly, some you don’t. Many of the resources were created by other people including past generations.

            I see you quickly abandoned the ‘highway robbery’ argument about taxes as soon as I pointed out that said robbers protect your personal wealth using the same threat of ‘gunpoint persuasion’. This is predictable: Nothing is more assured than wild gyrations of tortured logic, excuses, crying, and outright lies when listening to the greedy trying to justify avoiding payment of their fair share. We get it — why do you think that you’ve created a new and novel argument against ponying up your share? It’s as old as the hills, and the public recognizes it for what it is.

            Yes, under Clinton the government learned to live within a budget. Then came GW and blew a massive hole in that budget through unfunded wars and tax breaks. So tell me, why do we need a flat tax to correct the problem when you yourself reminisce fondly about the Clinton years? Why not just go back to those rates when everybody was doing just fine?

            Lastly, to answer the ‘does wealth exist without my genius’ question: If you didn’t create the wealth you speak of somebody else would — perhaps even me. Say, I think I want your wealth right now, so I’m coming over to your place to take it by force — how’s that sound? Luckily for you the ‘evil government’ you cry about so much will prevent that from happening, yes?

          • montanabill

            Quick note on the Constitution: it says ‘promote the general welfare’, not ‘provide the general welfare’.
            Never been around a ranch or a farm have you? Those people build their own bridges all the time, including my brother, with timber harvested from his own land. He did use a saw he didn’t forge himself, so I guess that means the government built it. Just so you’ll know, if I haven’t mentioned it before, I’ve lived my whole life, from poverty to now without one dime of any kind of government assistance, even during times when I was out of work with a family to feed.
            Are you saying that building a railroad across America was vote buying? That government support for industries during WW II was vote buying?
            Go to government budget sites, you will quickly find that unfunded wars and ‘tax breaks’ were not the primary shots that blew up the budget. Do a little math on revenues to the government to see if Clinton era taxes or even Eisenhower era taxes would do much more than pay for a few days worth of today’s government spending. It is all out there. What I reminisce for is government level welfare spending under Clinton or less. I would be perfectly happy to go back to his tax rates and government spending rates. I wouldn’t necessarily attribute it all to Clinton since Newt Gingrich was actually the one who made it happen.
            You might have a little trouble taking my wealth by force even without government interference. Brash talk won’t get it done. But you can certainly get to my level. Go to start and build that successful business you claim is so easy.

          • WhutHeSaid

            Your quote from the US Constitution is a cutesy swipe at something you dislike, but proves nothing. In fact, I don’t doubt that you ‘borrowed’ it from some right-wing zealot — despite your frequent and near hysterical claims of being self-sufficient.

            I have, in fact been on farms and ranches. The bridge I’m talking about is not a foot bridge over a stream nor is it a model bridge over a model river for your model trains. I’m talking about significant infrastructure projects, and I’m sure that you are well aware of this. Just because it invalidates your claims to self-sufficiency doesn’t mean that you can excuse yourself by making up absurd arguments to evade the point.

            Yep, a railroad across America was indeed a form of vote-buying. Would I still support it? Yes. Would it be done differently today? Yes. Does that help your arguments in any way? No.

            Newt Gingrich may have played a part in the Clinton Administration’s budget, but he certainly wasn’t the engineer. It was just a happy collision of events and circumstances. Say, did you vote for that nutty Newt? If not, why not?

            If you really believe that two major unfunded wars and 10 years of tax cuts wasn’t largely responsible for the deficit, then you won’t have to build a bridge ever again because I have one that I can sell you — repeatedly. Better go check your numbers again, and my advice is that you break down and purchase a calculator this time rather than using your toes.

            Finally, yes — your tough talk has me so impressed. There are plenty of headstones at the final resting place of tough guys. If you didn’t have government to protect your assets, somebody would eventually snatch them right out of your grubby little hands — you can bank on it.

            I’ve told you before, I’ve done just fine for myself. But then I’m not out here claiming to be the ‘magical businessman’ who builds vast empires from world-class smarts and a can of beans — that would be you. I stand to get a tax increase if Obama gets his way, but then I’m fine with it. So are many other people even if it seems adverse to their interests. But it’s not really adverse, because these people understand what utterly eludes you: A healthy middle class expands everyone’s wealth.

          • montanabill

            My quote from the Constitution was exact. In fact, I did borrow it from a bunch of right-wing zealots, the men who wrote the Constitution. If you can’t fathom a pretty large road bridge built by hand, then get a history book with pictures.
            Gingrich was the engineer. It was in his Contract With American.
            Again, I didn’t try to get you to believe what I said about U.S. spending, you can find the truth on your own. It is readily available from reliable sites on the internet.
            I don’t know about grubby, but my hands are certainly not little.
            I do agree that a healthy middle class expands everyone’s wealth, but I think it is business that creates it, not government.

          • WhutHeSaid

            Sorry to burst your self-serving bubble, but the Framers were most certainly NOT right-wing zealots. In fact, they were radically progressive for their time. Before you attempt to trot out your ‘I have the right to be greedy because x, y and z happened 2 centuries ago’, you could at least learn a bit about that history. Loudly proclaiming things based upon faulty knowledge just makes you look silly.

            Gingrich was no engineer. Gingrich only served as Speaker of the House, and he was forced out by his own minions. He was a burr in President Clinton’s saddle though, and the House did force Clinton to compromise. But to say that Gingrich did it is as far from the truth as the moon bases he wants to build. I remember it very well, so don’t try your revisionist history lesson on me.

            Nobody claims that government creates anything. Government is nothing but the will of the public setting down guidelines and systems to make everything (hopefully) work well for everyone. The welfare of the average Joe or Jane is vastly more important than that of you or me. I understand this, and it’s OK with me. I don’t mind chipping in my share, even if some of it goes to things I do not like — such as subsidies for huge oil companies. If you think that anyone will put your desire for a few more shiny pennies ahead of food for a hungry child, then you are nuttier than your pal Newt.

            Drop the tough guy talk already. I don’t care if your hands are 6’x8′ monstrosities hanging at the end of gorilla-sized arms — you would be the first one to cry like a baby if somebody took all your golden nuggets away from you. And have no doubt, big man, that somebody would without that evil old government and it’s laws to stop them.

          • montanabill

            In your world, black is white. Have a nice day, Whut.

          • Doug Thomas

            Actually, we elect people from our legislative districts, congressional districts ,and from states at large for the US Senate to represent our needs and wishes in the state and Federal legislatures. We also vote for people called governors and presidents to handle executive decisions and to present a vision for what the people see as the direction they want their states and nation to go. Government exists because we created it to take on bigger tasks individuals and small groups of people can’t efficiently or effectively handle on their own. You act like governments aren’t people, too. Like corporations, eh?! Only they collect money to build the country, not buy it.

          • montanabill

            Your view of government and its role is correct. The problem, as it has been throughout history, is that government doesn’t know when to stop expanding. A government bureaucrat gets promoted as the number of people working for them increases. Since their primary job is shuffling paper, they wish to create more paper or regulation work which creates the need for more people. Every new law and every new regulation is one more sliver of freedom taken from the people and delivered to government. We have an untold number of existing laws and regulations that aren’t enforced, or in some cases, even remembered. The number of agencies, bureaus, committees is staggering. A limited government can do the things tasked of it. In that regard, government is very much like a business that allows itself to become bloated. Neither works very well.

          • DukeDacat

            Hey Bill, pray tell,

            what private “Toll Roads” are in Montana???
            Do us good folks, whom are genuine “Montanans” a favor and change your handle to something that is more fitting your true character like, “BullshitBill”

            You sir, are an imposter and a charlatan.

            I am just saying… Have a nice day…

          • montanabill

            Read my posts a little closer.

        • montanabill

          Sorry, the first sentence should have been, ‘When I started my business and it grew to a pretty good size, there was no internet!’

        • totenkatz

          What if employees went to a private or religious school? The government didn’t pay for that. I assume you know that the current Department of Education was established in 1980. A lot of us baby boomers didn’t have the federal government involved in our schooling. Oh and if you look at the state of education in America today, it’s nothing to brag about. If you look at a constructions site that is building a road or bridge you will find many that are high school drop outs, got their primary education in another country, and/or went to a private of religious school. Another point, you will be amazed at how many roads were built as private roads before being in cooperated in the public road system or built without any federal money. Or toll roads that are build by a private firm and are using tolls to recoup their expenses. What if your fire fighters are volunteers’ not full time fire fighters? Postal system is going broke and doesn’t do as good as job as FedEx or UPS at delivering packages. I get mostly junk mail and bills from the Post Office, in fact they even work with UPS on delivery of packages now. Oh and the Post Office isn’t a tax payer running enterprise. Haven’t you seen the union commercials about that? The Department of Defense may have started the internet but it was private investment that made it what it is today. The early electrical systems were and are privately owned. The government got involved when it pushed for green energy. Edison started the first electricity supply company. This is all taught or use to be taught in history classes, but after reading some of the post here I feel a lot of you are products of the current, post 1980, education system and thus didn’t learn anything about American history.

      • You built a nationwide business on $300, without a single bank loan? You have developed a system that even Rockefeller, Morgan, Buffett, Carnegie, and a dozen others could not accomplish.

        I tend not to criticize others, but unless you can provide your company name so I can verify your claim, I shall have to say you are lying to us.

        • montanabill

          Say what you will. Do a little research. You will find a lot companies that started with little but an idea, some personal capital and a lot of sweat equity. By the way, take an idea to a bank and see if they will lend you money to start a business. That will be your first lesson in real life.

      • William Deutschlander

        montanabill – seriouly you are delusional and conceited!

      • DurdyDawg

        Obviously your taking this personal when it’s used as a majority of the business world. There are those who value their own drives, refuse welfare, obnoxious loans that cuts into profit and bail-outs if things go wrong. You should be proud of your accomplishments rather than going off the deep end because you think it’s all directed at you. We are all in this together, no one is the center of the universe.. Your success can not be viewed as the only way it’s gone because where there is one self-creator, there are fifty with their hands out.

        • montanabill

          Here’s a small detail. Take your idea to a bank and try to get a loan to start a business. See how far that goes. If you need money beyond your personal resources, the money will have to come from family, friends and/or investors who will take a chance on you and your idea.

          • DurdyDawg

            I understand what your trying to explain and you contribute to my point.. There are entrepreneurs who will seek g’ment assistance in order to get their b’ness started and their not in the minority (even the wealthy indulge). To become your own man is an accomplishment and should be noted but don’t think that these types are plentiful. In many instances, to get a ‘better’ deal than dealing with a capitalist. The g’ment takes a lot of that stress away and because of it they tend to look toward the g’ment to help them start their company and that’s one of the points Obama was trying to express. People can take the words literal (even when they know better) but to squabble between the word ‘that’ and ‘those’ are merely trying to keep the hate flowing. Both sides tend to do this and both sides needs to stop.

          • montanabill

            You are correct that a lot of business men will take advantage of government. During Bush’s administration, friends of Cheney did well. Under Obama, GE and Buffett are gaming the system, as well as, green energy companies. The only agency that I’m aware of that actually provides help to small business is the SBA and their help is usually the help from hell. Otherwise, most government agencies are in the ‘prevent’ business. They see their jobs as ‘protecting’ the public, but in most cases, it is a small man or woman with big authority. Much of the pettiness has declined now that the economy has faltered and politicians are worried about their tax bases, but the mountains of regulations and rules is still growing. If you are a well-funded start-up, you can hire lawyers and ‘consultants’ (friends of government employees) to get your business started. If you are a little guy, you can be beaten down just trying to get through the system. It didn’t used to be that way. If the economy is going to recover, we need the potential small business entrepreneurs to have the courage and determination to give it a go and no amount of highway or bridge building is going to help them get past the bureaucrats.

          • DurdyDawg

            I couldn’t agree more.. The statement, though correct isn’t taking into consideration the small businessman who invests his/her time and finances for the chance of success (investment). I think the statement more deals with corporations that need massive funds to start and their focus is pleasing investors who them selves seek g’ment backing. It’s unfair to link the SBI (small business investor) among the mega businesses but to exclude them would bring up more controversy. Right now the media is making both candidates venerable in everything they say. We should be more mortified by the way the media is playing this election rather than the runners and they should be concentrating on what’s important for the Nation rather than manipulating emotions in order to slip through with little to no plan once they get in.. We’ve heard that Romney has no plans but instead a (possible) guarantee for one once he wins the election.. On the other side of that coin, have we heard any plans from Obama other than “a new beginning”..? What does that mean, exactly? I don’t know except that both seem to be playing the same game for their respective audience.

          • montanabill

            I have to agree with your assessment. The problem is very much akin to the Senate producing a budget. As long as they don’t do it, they can’t be held accountable. Both Presidential candidates are in the same boat. The minute either one produces a specific plan, the sniping begins. It is one reason why I admire Ryan for creating and disclosing his budget plan. He knew he would get shot at, but at least he had the guts to do it. Unfortunately, instead of debating the details and offering alternatives or enhancements, it is simply being demagogued which serves none of us. If someone has an alternative plan, let them disclose it.

      • It takes a village.

        • montanabill

          So go to your village, start a business and see how far you can go. If you and the President think it is so darned easy with government help, try it.

          • It isn’t easy,that is why it takes a village. Everyone works together.

          • montanabill

            Let me know when your village has your business up and running for you.

      • and you and your workers learned to read at a public school. you send your product to market on public roads, unless you have built one of your own.

        • montanabill

          or private school or home school. Mainly my product ships UPS, that’s is neither here nor there. If these things created my business, then they must have created one for you. Did they?

          • Dave_dido

            And as we all know, UPS sends your product by carrier pigeon. They don’t use our highway system which was built in your father’s day when, thankfully,Americans were glad to have their government do things for the common good. Oh, I know, now you’ll tell us that your father hated government, too. Sorry, Bill, but I detect a “powerful odor of mendacity” in your posts.

          • montanabill

            Government was created for doing common good, but it has nothing to do with creating, building or running businesses. Government couldn’t build squat without taxpayer money. Money that comes from people working for businesses, running businesses or selling farm products. If businesses hadn’t been created by people, government would have been limited to trying to tax barter or farm workers. This is not a ‘chicken or egg’. Businesses were created before government, in spite of government and feed government.

      • joyscarbo

        Sure, you built a business on your own. And I suppose you created your own electricity plant, water works and sewage plant too. And I’m sure you created every phone, cable, and power line that runs right into your various, multi-state locations of your business that you’ve told me about some time ago. And exactly where did you go to school did you attend college? Are there trucks and other vehicles that run inbetween all your interstate business locations? They run on roads, interstate highways, railways…etc. Do you build the roads that only your business use? If it weren’t for the framework of what our country has built, you wouldn’t have took your business much further than your own front door. Have some sort of patriotic gratitude and put some of prideful arrogance.
        Don’t take my opinion at face value…
        One of our great forefathers, Thomas Paine wrote:

        “Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of society, as it is for him to make land originally.
        Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man’s own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came.”

        Sounds like you think you’re some sort of island or continent Bill. Why not cultivate some good old fashioned humility and gratitude for your country.

        • montanabill

          I have the same answer for all of you who think that government is largely responsible for my successes. You have the same level of help, maybe more since you are more willing to take it, from the government. Have you tried to build a business? Do you even have a clue what it takes and what ‘help’ government really provides?
          I’m afraid I have to disagree with Thomas Paine. Even in his time there were individuals in this country who quite capably lived as islands. What they owned, wore and ate, they gathered with their own two hands as free men. Were they rich? I suspect they thought so.

          • joyscarbo

            No one is saying that the government “largely” helped you build your business. In fact, Bill, I congratulate you on your successful business. Any small business only has a 35% of still being open for business after it’s first 10 years. So your hard work and dedication is clearly evident. I suspect some luck- that is, providing a product or service at the right time in the right place- also plays a part.
            Most Americans don’t start businesses. Less 20% than all citizens own a small business- and that’s being generous. Most work for corporations- large and small. I have been lucky to enjoy a measure of success as well and have worked for large and small hospitals and clinics. Nursing has allowed me to raise my 3 kids with my husband with a fair amount of comfort. No, we didn’t have lavish vacations and our retirement account is not at all where we’d like it to but, but I am grateful still.
            I recognize that there were people and institutions along the way that inspired and helped me. I had an outstanding high school english teacher saw a multitude of potential when I was a teen- a time that is full of angst and doubt. I had a college instructor who inspired my nursing career. I had parents who believed in me. I did get Pell Grants, scholarships and government funded student loans. I am thankful for every one. I’ve paid my own way or earned it- just like you did.
            But the difference is that I’m very grateful to live in a country that helped make it happen. And I’m not merely grateful for the availability of loans and grants. I’m thankful that there were millions- if not billions- of people that made my success possible. The people that fought and won our freedom for this country made it possible for me to be successful. All of those who “paved the way”- both figuritively and literally- to build this country. Our government helped to settle territory that you and I both live in now. How can you be so incredibly arrogant as to think you could have enjoyed such success in a lesser country?! For a man so much older than me, you should be teaching ME these lessons- not the other way around.

          • montanabill

            I’m glad you had help along the way. It is true that I was able to achieve what success I have enjoyed because of the freedoms presented to me. I didn’t have the help you did, but that made reaching goals that much sweeter. The problem I have with the current (and previous administrations) is simply the usurpation of power. Every new law, every new regulation, is a freedom lost and more power granted to government. We can’t function without laws and some regulation but this country has reached a tipping point. My father and his forebearers enjoyed far more freedom than I have enjoyed, but I see my grandchildren closing in on the tight restrictions of Europe where entrepreneurs are a vanishing breed. No matter how tightly government tries to control things, there will always be abuses. If we allow government to curtail the freedoms of all of us just to make it harder for the cheats, you know where we will end up. Maybe you simply didn’t have the freedoms I had to do things like sell papers on the street at age 10 or hunt at age 12 in lands with few fences. Maybe that’s why you don’t miss those freedoms…because you never had them.

          • joyscarbo

            You see, Bill, we have more in common than you think. But don’t think that just because you tried and failed or struggled more, that my success isn’t just as sweet to me. Trust me, it is. Remember that college costs much, much more than it did in your day. I am still repaying my government student loans, 17 years later and I won’t be done for another 4 years. But I don’t regret accumulating the debt because the investment was in ME and I have great return! Like you, I don’t think that government can or even should try to solve every one of our problems- either individually or collectively. But I do believe in enough regulations to make it as level a playing field as possible for all those who create a business with just a good idea and the determination to suceed.

          • WhutHeSaid

            Are you trying to say that you are the only person who has ever built a business? Perhaps you are trying to say that you built the best business on earth? Or is it just that you are the only person who has built a business that understands what business is about?

            Give it a rest, fella. Many of us who have built a business are responsible enough to give credit where credit is due. Don’t make us all look bad just because you choose to be a greedy slug who lies about the benefits afforded you by the rest of society. Stop trying to pretend that government is some monolithic and evil entity that is hell-bent on stamping out individual success. There are good and bad aspects to any government, but we do have the ability to make changes — even if it’s difficult to do sometimes.

            Government in this country is supposed to be the will of the people. I know that greedy slugs wish that it was the will of corporations, and we can all see how hard the Koch Brothers are trying to make it so, but incessant lying about how your success was utterly independent from the rest of society is really making you sound like a nitwit.

          • montanabill

            I’m saying that individuals who had a dream, courage and determination built their businesses. And since you insist on being nasty about ‘greedy slugs’, I will assume you weren’t one those individuals.

      • Do you want the government to pamper you now? Pay up and shut up!

        • montanabill

          Your comment is in relation to…?

      • joyscarbo

        Provided by the Department of Education:
        “The original Department of Education was created in 1867 to collect information on schools and teaching that would help the States establish effective school systems. While the agency’s name and location within the Executive Branch have changed over the past 130 years, this early emphasis on getting information on what works in education to teachers and education policymakers continues down to the present day.”

        I think its all coming down to symantics. There has been state involvement and federal oversight of the states for many decades.

        • montanabill

          The original DOE was not an oversight agency. It was an information collection agency which lasted less than a year because of fear that it might excise too much control over local schools. Time passes, government increases its reach.

      • Doug Thomas

        Good for you, montanabill! Three hundred dollars turned into a sucessful, big business! That makes you smarter than the average bear, eh!?

        Why is it, though, that people who live in red states whine the most about Federal Government handouts yet seem to manage to get more bucks back than they sent to DC? Montana gets more than $1.40 back for its contribution, for example, making it one of the big beneficiaries (top 10 or 11 states), typically, for money from DC.

        Reminds me of the bumper sticker: “Don’t complain about the farmer with your mouth full.” Substitute “Federal Government” for farmer and “hand out” for “mouth full”, and you have the sorry truth about red state “self-sufficiency”.

        I live in a red state that only gets about $1.10 back per $1.00 sent to DC. Even then, I don’t speak smugly about OUR self-sufficiency. Further, I live in the less populated end of the state where locals whine about how the populated end neglects us, all the while we get disproportionate amounts of tax money to build and maintain out roads through places that never could pay for this benefit on their own.

        • montanabill

          Actually Doug, I don’t think I am smarter than the average bear. But I was more determined, more willing to learn, more willing to sacrifice and more willing to work the hours and do without days off, vacations and holidays.
          I don’t agree with your ‘red states’ comments when it is mostly the blue states that are deeply in debt, on the verge of bankruptcy and crying for help. As far as people getting more that they put in, that applies to older Social Security recipients, a substantial number of SS disability people, many on Medicare and the nearly 5o% that currently don’t pay any income tax. Road building is a great function of government. Providing largess to people perfectly capable working is not.

      • How long have you been in business Montanabill?

        How long has “Obstructionism” been a key issue for successful businesses like your own?

        I’m thinking you began your business in 2008? Am I missinterpreting your response to Ladyj…? Thanks…

        • montanabill

          I started the business I was referring to in the mid-70’s. Would you like to define ‘obstructionism’ as you view it?

      • How has govt obstructed your biz?

        • montanabill

          Fair question, Mark. Obamacare is having and will have an even larger impact on the healthcare I can afford to provide my employees and their families. It is a massive piece of legislation and nobody is quite sure of the final impact, but already it increases taxes, increases the cost for insurance, requires more accounting services. Defining all the details would take a very long response. The latest business I started a few years ago was a nightmare of zoning, building regulations, inspections, impact fees, water resource management regulations, extraordinary provisions for the disabled, waste disposal, and more. It took over a year longer to get started and millions of dollars more than if I had started the business even five years earlier.
          Say you have a very diversified ethnic staff and one of your ethnic employees is slacker and troublemaker. Normally, you should just be able to dismiss them, but if they file a discrimination claim, look out. It can take months to resolve. You don’t dare fire that person or you’ll face a trial lawyer yelling, “revenge”. When the claim is finally denied, guess what? The person simply files another one. Phoney disabled claims, phoney ‘your product harmed me’, and many other easy to file litigation claims keep your insurance costs extraordinarily high. Get the picture, Mark?

          • dtgraham

            Where would this newly fired person get the money to hire some law firm for this discrimination suit? Can’t imagine that there would be too many pro bono firms out there for this kind of thing.

            I saw a documentary called Hot Coffee recently. There was a lengthy study done in Texas after medical tort reform and caps were put in place. Medical insurance premiums actually increased over inflation during this period. There never has been any reduction in doctor’s malpractice insurance premiums to this day. It’s just been a windfall and goldmine for the insurance industry. What has happened though, is that people wrongfully and grievously injured were not able to collect anywhere close to the amount that a jury calculated would be needed to give them the life long care necessary to sustain themselves. The judge had to cap the jury’s good judgment at a much lower figure forcing the injured to resort to medicaid. They were still shortchanged (god knows their fate) and the taxpayer ended up on the hook.

          • montanabill

            Many trial lawyers work for a percentage of award. They know that insurance companies will settle rather than incur the cost of a trial. That is why business and health care provider insurance is so costly. I didn’t see your documentary, but it runs counter to everything I have experienced. (I have a business in the health care field) Tort reform also should require the losing party to pay for legal defense expenses. That is not the case today so there is no risk in getting a trial lawyer (look for those that advertise on TV) to take a shot at you. There will always be cases where a legitimate malpractice needs to be addressed, but those are a pretty small fraction of the cases filed.

      • delroy brown

        Our public school educated the labor force that works for you. Without an educated work force dear lady you are nothing. There are company right now who says they cant find qualified candidate. Our tax dollar provide grant and loan to students who bring their knowledge and know how to your business to make it thrive and you rich. Our electric grid power your plant, government subsidized phone , internet and postal service also contribute to your success. You did not invest the start up capital for those tools used in your trade. We subsidize the garbage man that remove your thrash so that your plant doesn’t stink , driving away customers. We pay for snow removal so that you can open your store in winter. We maintain the roads so that you can have the delivery to your business.The street light on the block we pay for so that you don’t get mugged when you leave your pristine office. Did The street and traffic lights too. Just think how inconvenient it would be without them. You are egotistical and self centered. You exploit and take from the system our tax dollars pays for but do not want to pay into it. You are all anti american. You just exploit the masses without replenishing the treasury. Once you make yours its time for small government. That mean no more taxes for you . People with your attitude don’t deserve the protection of our tax payer supported police force . The next time your house or business is on fire please don’t call our government run and tax payer supported fire department use a bucket.

        • montanabill

          Unfortunately, delroy, we usually find it necessary to invest in a lot of training because most new graduates are woefully unprepared to step into the job market.
          You talk about ‘we’ when you are referring to who paid for general services. What was your level of contribution? Are you one of the 10% who paid 70% of the bill, the 40% who paid 30% of the bill, or one of the 50% who paid none of the bill? How many of these services are provided by private companies vs government run companies? Do you not think that companies actually get bills to pay for these services?
          If you are a product of our public school educated work force, I rest my case.

      • JackieAllen

        Sir, you built your business on the success of many, many people before you. I would be embarassed not to give credit to your ancestors.. Perhaps you didn’t need a loan, or money from
        family, etc. You grew up in America, and probably reaped the gains
        of so many areas in life that you’ve forgotten to humble yourself to all
        you left out. I also grew up in a much easier time. I had the support from
        family and friends that we all need to get through hard times. Come on…..
        You sound very much like the kind of people who just denigrate the
        government. I can assure you, that without our government–you would
        have not gotten very far. Try moving to Russian, even today. Mr. Putin
        has a dislike for mouths that make mischief. Try getting ahead there!
        The President did not phrase the statement well–I will agree–but the
        nit wits put on the finishing touches.

        • montanabill

          You seem to have missed the President’s tone. He wanted government to have credit for people’s success. ‘You could not have done that on your own’, is thought process of a man who rejects individual initiative. Individual accomplishment and initiative are counter to all the teachings he had during his formative years. All that is made clear by Barack Obama himself in his books.

  • montanabill

    Spin, spin, spinning like spinning top. I heard it. I know what he meant. He doesn’t understand American history, economics or the capabilities of individuals with determination.

    • BDD1951

      Call it spin if it makes you feel better. None the less nobowtie is exactly right. I’m glad for you that you have a good bbusiness going but, no matter how you try to spin it you had a lot of government help along the way. Don’t try to deny it. It just won’t fly.

      • montanabill

        Since we all had access to that same level of ‘government help’, did you build a successful business? If not, why not?

    • DurdyDawg

      Take this then:

      [click to enlarge]

  • I am a Democrat, I plan to vote for President Obama, and I readily admit that he did a lousy job at delivering a message that a below average politician could have articulated better. Yes, we owe ou successes and failures to our parents, teachers, mentors, to the schools we attended, and to the infrastructure that helps us succeed as businessmen or professionals, but as hard as it is to admit it, that is not what came out of the President’s mouth. It is becoming increasingly apparent that President Obama is feeling the heat and that he is losing control of the campaign. Gaffes like this one are going to hurt him in November and, make no mistake, the GOP will seize every opportunity to capitalize on his mistakes to score points when none are warranted.

  • Bain Capital had millions in investments from fat cats! Gimme a break!

  • CWOSC

    Ladyj – No matter who loans you the money, they expect you to pay it back. That is, unless you think gov’t money to start a business is another entitlement. Government is supposed to help fashion a functioning , safe, productive and educated society. That’s why we pay taxes, not to provide endless transfer payments. This does not obviate the need for personal initiative and responsibility. By the way, sound economic growth is not “trickle down” as frequently described. It is “trickle up”. Business plans, invests, builds, hires and grows. If successful, i.e. “profitable”, it can continue to hire and pay employees and perhaps even grow. That’s Trickle Up, not trickle down. Investors who share in profits then are free to reinvest (that’s called capital) in other businesses. That’s how a sound economy grows in a sustainable way. I wonder if Obama agrees.

    • ObozoMustGo

      CWO… good post. Unfortunately, for many of the useful idiots swimming around in this sea of leftist insanity called “The Memo”, you may as well have written your post in Chinese becuase you have just created dumb looks on the faces of all leftsts that read it. They don’t get this stuff. There is no cliche’ to go along with it.

      Keep fighting the good fight.

      Have a nice day!

      • highpckts

        You are so arrogant!

      • jarheadgene

        I get it….I as Willard Mitt Romney can start off a “Scared…freshly minted Harvard MBA.” (His way of saying he can relate to a “fear of unemployment”, to a debate crowd.) I can build up BAIN until I over leverage it and then take a FDIC (who is the FDIC?…Republicans….use your brains now) LOAN for an enormous amount of cash and parly it into a bigger company that sends jobs overseas and destroys smaller companies for profit. Oh and when I get rich enough I can just try to bully and buy my way into Office like I always have. I get it.

        • ObozoMustGo

          gene… you must be very hung over this morning. The FDIC insures consumer bank deposits and does not “make loans”. Sorry dude. You might want to erase that post so you don’t look like a complete fool, Gene. I’m just trying to be helpful and not a wise guy. As an FYI for you, here is what the FDIC is from it’s own website. Please note the last paragraph.
          ———————
          The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) preserves and promotes public confidence in the U.S. financial system by insuring deposits in banks and thrift institutions for at least $250,000; by identifying, monitoring and addressing risks to the deposit insurance funds; and by limiting the effect on the economy and the financial system when a bank or thrift institution fails.

          An independent agency of the federal government, the FDIC was created in 1933 in response to the thousands of bank failures that occurred in the 1920s and early 1930s. Since the start of FDIC insurance on January 1, 1934, no depositor has lost a single cent of insured funds as a result of a failure.

          The FDIC receives no Congressional appropriations – it is funded by premiums that banks and thrift institutions pay for deposit insurance coverage and from earnings on investments in U.S. Treasury securities. The FDIC insures more than $7 trillion of deposits in U.S. banks and thrifts – deposits in virtually every bank and thrift in the country.

          The standard insurance amount is $250,000 per depositor, per insured bank, for each account ownership category. The FDIC’s Electronic Deposit Insurance Estimator can help you determine if you have adequate deposit insurance for your accounts.

          The FDIC insures deposits only. It does not insure securities, mutual funds or similar types of investments that banks and thrift institutions may offer. (Insured and Uninsured Investments distinguishes between what is and is not protected by FDIC insurance.)
          ——————————–

          Have a nice day!

        • jarheadgene

          OMG…as you state below…You are right about something…go figure. In my haste to lay down a comment I misused the terms but the end result is the same. Bain Capital / Romney went to the FDIC for bailout….which is what they do, they are insuring depositors, and they gave him $10 million which later got forgiven…..So WHO PAID FOR THAT! In the long run we did and yet ROMNEY’s pockets are so fat he can’t carry anymore money. I can’t say the same…I don’t know how to abuse the rules or the gov’t. I only know how to serve our gov’t/people.

  • bigspender7

    The republicans can’t survive by telling the truth. The facts are not on their side. When the truth hurts, make stuff up. Its the tea party mantra.

  • ObozoMustGo

    Jonathan Alter – Obozo apologist and useful idiot du jour. Did you get your marching orders from the Obozo campaign propaganda machine this morning or last night? I’m just asking…

    Keep trying to spin this by telling people that what they heard is not what they heard. What they saw is not what they saw. Of course it is. In fact, Obozo’s statement is WORSE in context than it is when parsed. He goes off prompter and the real Obozo the socialist/collectivist shows up. Then all of you apologists and useful idiots scramble to hide what the guy is in reality. Too bad. He said it. He meant what he said. We heard what he said. And the audience of useful idiots understood what he said and cheered it. Accept the reality that Obozo is a fool!

    Now, for all of you leftist nutjobs out there trying to defend what he said in the way that he meant it, you all claim that the government built the roads and bridges. NO THEY DID NOT!

    IT WAS PRIVATE PAVING AND CONSTRUCTION COMPANIES THAT BUILT THOSE ROADS AND BRIDGES WITH TAXES PAID BY PRIVATE BUSINESSES AND PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

    Further, don’t they have roads and bridges in North Korea? Or Cuba? Or the former Soviet Union? Of course they do/did. So what is the difference between the results of American success, and the failures of those countries????? FREEDOM, LIBERTY, PRIVATE PROPERTY, AND ENTREPRENEURIAL SPIRIT. That’s the difference. Think about it.

    Have a nice day!

    • I get that. And our wonderful war machine was BUILT BY PRIVATE DEFENSE CONTRACTORS WITH TAXES PAID BY PRIVATE BUSINESSES AND PEOPLE. I get that too. My question is, who actually fights the wars. Sorry if that’s a little off topic.

      • ObozoMustGo

        Mark… Actually, DEFENSE is the primary role of the Federal Government. It’s why it exists in the first place. And to answer your question, we dont have a draft nor mandatory military service. Therefore, the fighters are the brave men and women who VOLUNTEER to do so.

        Have a nice day!

        • It is interesting that we ended up with a military having the greatest offensive capability of any in the world. But that’s not really my point. There are many things that can either only be done by govt. or at least most efficiently done by govt.; regulation of interstate commerce, baseline environmental standards, interstate transportation systems (the interstate highway system was designed to provide for military transport), communications, to name a few. Heck, I’d even throw in health care in there, for different reasons. I think it’s disingenuous to call the govt. obstructionist to business, when by claiming such you are completely ignoring the chaos and obstruction that would be created if these tasks were left to private industry or even the jurisdiction of individual state governments (I know, Ayn Rand claims it will all work out in the end. And it would sort of, we’d just have a feudal society, but likely with well enforced order). Without getting into any constitutional arguments, I think that the goal of the founders was not to limit the role of government so much as to leave the functions to the states as much as possible. When issues with interstate implications arise, I think it’s the obligation of the federal govt. to regulate. It ain’t the wild west anymore. That’s about all the time I have for internet blather today. Cheers

          • ObozoMustGo

            Hey Mark! How’s your weekend going? I hope nice and relaxing.

            Reading your post, I don’t actually think we are very far apart in our thinking, except for healthcare. Agreed, the fed government does have a role in some things like military and regulating commerce. The problem is the extent of their reach. When they are telling me what kind of light bulbs I can use, they’ve gone too far. When they are telling me that the breath I exhale is a polutant, they’ve gone too far. Whey they are telling farmers how the may or may not employ the labor of their own kids on their own farms, they’ve gone too far. When they are shutting down bake sales or kids lemonaide stands, they’ve gone too far. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, Mark. The Obozo regulatory machine has added 80,000 pages of regulations in 3.5 years to burden our economy and regulate our lives.

            And, yes, Mark, the goal of the Founders WAS TO LIMIT the role of the Federal Government to specific functions. They knew that all government tends toward tyranny and despotism, and therefore sought to put a tight noose around the Fed. Remember, THE STATES CREATED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, not the other way around. They never could have gotten it ratified without the 10th Amendment which states that those powers not specifically granted to the Fed are left to the states AND TO THE PEOPLE.

            You should read a book called “The Original Argument” which is a modern English translation of the Federalist Papers.

            Anyway, I gotta run. Have a great rest of the weekend!

    • highpckts

      Why don’t you have a nice day and leave the building along with your cramped mind!

  • bcarreiro

    keep up the good work on attacking Obama on words of wisdom, truth and equality. In which you truly have none of the above. The only skills you show is delegation and manipulation. thanks but we have the president we need and he is here to stay.

  • mwh2234

    it’s open season, like shooting ducks in a barrel…no matter what the content of the message, there is always a way to distort, twist, just reiterate with a noxious phrase, and whammo, you made a big jerk out of the president…

  • Landsende

    Just as Romneys gaffes such as “I like to fire people”are twisted to suit the lefts agenda, the right wants to twist President Obama’s words to suit their agenda. Any half way free thinking person can figure out what they really meant and ignore the political rhetoric from both sides and make up their own minds. Name calling and insults are not going to change anyone’s mind.

  • The job requires heads up ball all the time, Screw up, you will be called out..Be prepared. Now regarding the comment, if that is the big thing for the Romney group to attack Obama about. That shows what a sorry bunch of Minds, are available, in the Romney camp…

    • jarheadgene

      Same minds that brought you, “We need to attack Iraq to stop WMD’s”.

  • ssstickit

    Romney could NOT have saved the O:MMPICS WITHOUT the TAXPAYERS
    The TAXPAYERS saved the OLYMPICS NOT Ramaney

  • ssstickit

    Your the one who thinks HE deservices SPECIAL treatment I don’t think so

  • HoodooTexas

    Here is the problem with the POTUS’s comment and while the opposition does indeed gleefully take the comment out of context, the comment itself is disquieting enough on it’s own terms because it minimizes the role of individual success and initiative in this country. It is an outrageously simplistic remark and it is incredibly divisive. On it’s own it is damaging enough…it does not need right wing propaganda to rise a few eyebrows…it certainly has raised mine. A POTUS should not be so eager to see only half of a concept.
    I would suggest that the clear intent of the preamble to the Constitution gets it right: Supporting the General Welfare, Providing for the Common Defense, and Securing the Blessings of Liberty for present and future generations. The preamble has a purpose, it spreads the broad wings of government gently over all citizens… POTUS does not seem to consider all Americans when he speaks…and that is very disturbing. He fails to acknowledge that we all use those bridges, rich and poor alike and all of us benefit while sharing a disproportionate load. I think the rich and business have a responsibility to help hold up the infrastructure of this country, and I have certainly seen many times where they have betrayed this concept, but I also see the poor and the needy quite ready to cut the throat of the Golden Goose. We need a POTUS that will speak in a measured, intelligent manner, recognizing the complexities of our problems, and resisting the cheap shot that only brings ill will, not illumination.

    • highpckts

      He did exactly that whether you choose to see it or not!

      • HoodooTexas

        highpckts: What are you referring to as “that”?

    • jarheadgene

      I agree on many or your points; however, I would like to make a counterpoint that Mr. Romney is only with the rich and could care less about the middle class and as for the poor, …they are only for trampling on. He offers even less balanced answers than President Obama does.

  • but the anti-christ did say he likes fireing ppl. and from where he made his money he also like to go in on company that are hurting and cutting them apart and selling the parts and picking the bones clean then saying im a good buiness man look at the money i made ( off the hurting ppl) and he says he can handle and do the same thing for the ppl. and country . first off there isnt enough money in the world to take the 98 % and turn them all into the greedy bastard 2 % er,s

  • onedonewong

    WOW waht a stretch to get Barak off the hook. reading the words its obvious that obama fully embraced the words of 1 of his fellow socialists Elizabeth Warrnen. Its no mistake that she has uttered those words and Barak previously agreed with her point. So no this isn’t a faux pas it’s a reflection of how he thinks.
    That’s why he has stood in the way of the Keystone pipeline, they were creating jobs and weren’t using govt $$$ and it goes against his grain

  • followet

    The most important and the thing that will decide the election will be the debates. Obama is going to beat Romney like a drum. I don’t know how Romney could even begin to look presidential with out looking like a fool first. That is when the world is going to hear the truth and I hope Obama takes off the gloves and slaps him around. BUT I know that isn’t Barack’s style.

  • Genny (Gennet) I like this article. Only additional comment I would put forth, is that is Ann Ryand were understood correctly, in context of her background, I think readers would understand that her “selfishness” is simply taking care of one’s own needs as best one can;
    & those who who do well in society, she would not attack for being successful but would call for them to give back their fair share to help those in need to also be able to succeed in something–gain needed education for some trade/profession; be able to provide adequate food, medication & medical care for their children, spouses, elders. I would imagine that Ann Ryand, Warren Buffet, & President Obama would all agree–if I’m understanding things correctly–Open to feed back–I do know that those among obstructionist, do nothing Congress people in both House & Senate (but most are in House), teabaggers–need to be throw overboard, bact into harbor! And nobody better harbor them either.

    • Gammaanya

      You got it but tell thos to dljones, obozomust go and all those wanna be Romney outhere.

  • dljones

    To you pin heads from the land of Oz drinking “you didn’t do it” koolaid!!!!!

    The government is NOT a for profit business. Another undisputed fact, government has NEVER made a profit. Therefore, governments DOES NOT have an income! They are PROVIDED with our tax dollars in accordance with the tax mandates THEY create and place into law. Thereby, government is a DISTRIBUTION CENTER and allocates resources in accordance WITH the free will of the people.

    When you view a ribbon cutting with a bunch of politicians proudly standing around, they are taking credit as a distribution center for YOUR resources (our tax dollars). Remember, that’s what “we built it” really means!

    You are the hero’s that bailed out a desperate auto industry with your tax dollars. Although, after government distributed billions of dollars later, unfair and rude, you are only stockholders incognito. Get your dividend check this quarter? That is how taxpayers make a profit that is in turn taxed, by none other, the government for more DISTRIBUTION. Surprised?

    Government’s unbounded covert spending has grossly mismanaged our money in the amount of $16 trillion dollars. (That is 185 thousand dollar bill due on our Chinese credit card and DUE from each American

    So, President Obama, WE built this nation’s infrastructure with our dollars, blood, and sweat, undaunted in the true spirit of THE AMERICAN FREE ENTERPRISE.

    PS: Don’t forget to thank a veteran who thought enough of us to make the ultimate sacrifice.

    • Gammaanya

      To your comment – then Romney is not qualified to be POTUS – he is a businessman for profit for him and his investors. US Gov. is not a business and can not be run as such. Agree – US Gov. is not for profit but Gov. is here to protect all of us, therefore WE ALL BUILD THAT. Rich or poor or in between, OUR Taxes build that Gov.. Hmmmm Free Enterprise do you mean if somebody have oil business so they can come to my backyard, dump their stuff or start digging and I have no say in the matter??? They can come and tell me to move because they bought my house and they need this corner to build a shopping mall.
      Koch Bros, can come to any city in the US and start tearing up roads because they don’t like the top??? We have no say in the matter ?. Gov. is here to protect us from the so called free enterprise with laws and regulations, to protect your ideas with patents so nobody can copy 100% and claim as their own. There is no such thing as free lunch – unless you come to Wisconsin and Romney will buy you a cheap h/c sandwich, even with this gesture he is buying your vote (cheap), therefore even Romney CAN’t to be a POTUS without VOTES. Not alone. He can’t do that. Can he???? I have nothing against free enterprises ( I have 3 businesses) but I do follow law and regulations. I don’t go and pay some politician no matter what party, to get the small guy out of the way becaue I am bigger and I wanted what he has or he is in my way for more. So some guy from other country with big bucks can come here and he can start logging in Yosemite Park, Yellow Stone and the hell with everybody else. Free Enterprise??? Excuse me. It seems to me that Republicans are splitting hairs because they have nothing to run on. WHatever they are doing now is pure Insanity. Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Einstein. Republicans keep voting and repeal the ACA 33 times, so they waste taxpayers money in millions and they want smaller gov????
      As for Veterans comment. Here is mine.
      A Veteran is a person who, at one point in his life, gave a blank check payable to his country in the amount of his life. This means he loves his country and it’s citizens. It’s a honor and Patriotism. He fought and gave his life for your freedom of speech so you can speak against any President and your country, he gave his life for your flag so you can have the right to burn it in protest against your own government and he comes home draped in that flag – his check was cashed in. He gave his life so you can have all the freedom to buy guns and kill your own just because you don’t like their looks. It takes courage to fight somebody’s war, but there are way too many people in this country who no longer care or understands it.
      They gave their lives so others can achieve their dreams if they have desire to do so. We all in it together, rich or poor .Those who survived – what society gave in return???
      Very little and the Corporations (they are people my friend) or free enterprise ????
      With all the millions being spent on ads, missinformation, halftruth, spinning etc ,etc would patch holes in a budget and give those Veterans decent jobs.
      They get NONE. The common people who donate all the little money they have to have welcome home parades for the heros. Did Crossroads, Adelson, Koch donated a dollar for just that purpose???? NO. They all benefited from their sacrifices. They are pumping millions in a useless piece of human trash with money because they get more money – best ROI. than your SS in your lifetime. (if you will have SS).
      By the way we do not have CC with China. Ask Bush/ Cheney what they did with the surpluss that was left by Clinton????? Ask the Veterans if the check they wrote was from chinese bank. Did chinese cashed it???? Republicans were in full control for 6 years and where are the money where are the jobs????????????

      “The land will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave”
      Government is to protect people. Rich believe that Government should protect them from the people.

      • jarheadgene

        Makes me think of the “Michael Douglas” speech in “The American President.” My favorite quote…..”America is advanced citzenship. ” ROMoNEY seems to extremely favor another quote from an entirely different movie. Sorry WILLARD, “GREED is[NOT] good.”

  • William Deutschlander

    The FACT surrounding this deliberate Republican lie, is that Thomas Paine, while our Republic was being formed, SAID EXACTLY WHAT PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID!

    Without society banded together for the COMMON GOOD, NO ONE CAN SUCCEED!

    I am a former BUSINESSMAN, I depended on the Government, the Post Office, the BANKS, the Material Suppliers, the Internet, the FIRE DEPARTMENT, the Highway Dep’t, the Trucking Co’s, the Auto Industry, the auto dealership, the Credit Card Vendors, the Accountant, my insrance provider, my Family, my Employees, my education and last but NOT LEAST my CUSTOMERS, and I know many others that I did not mention.

    I did not do it alone!

  • “Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that.”
    What gaff? The President said that you didn’t build that “unbelievable American system”. How hard is that to understand for anybody who understands English, with an IQ above room temperature?

    • sigrid28

      All language is a convention of understanding, involving words and their meanings, some of which are determined by context. For example, in your comment, “with an IQ above room temperature” is a prepositional phrase attached to the noun immediately preceding it, “English.” Yet, it’s kind of nonsensical to think of an English language with an IQ above (or below) room temperature. Perhaps, based on the CONTEXT of your sentence, “with an IQ above room temperature” refers to another noun, in this case the pronoun “anybody.”

      Two can play the willful-refusal-to-understand-the-context game. But if too many insist on playing it whenever it suits them, significant discourse can descend to the level of gibberish and might not be there to help us when we need it. Do we really want to decide on our next president based on senseless repetitions of incomplete statements by either candidate, as if the truth has nothing to do with it? So far, the GOP has embarked upon the IMAX of lying, as if lying had no consequence. It is possible that those who think that the English language is a trust to us all will refuse to tolerate it. (For Tea Party members and GOP flacks, “it” refers to “the IMAX of lying”).

    • jarheadgene

      Brought to you by the same Americans that write – there for their or their for they’re and also to for too or two for to and also two for to. I could continue for days but attentions spans being what they are, these days, unless I was a video game or super hero movie.

  • DurdyDawg

    Sadly this election has become the front runner of misquotes and not just to embarrass but to destroy the speaker’s intent. This, ‘dog eating’ .. ‘dog traveling’.. “I said this”, ” no! he said that” is absolutely horrendous especially in the economical shape we’re in.. It seems the real issues are secondary to the mud slinging, reputation killing jabs that have been whisked at us since the beginning of this year. Who you gonna trust when everybody is lying? The worst choice is Romney with his ‘elitist’ agenda but what better choice do we have with Obama except the possible hope that we as citizens shut off from the wealthy will be respected. I’ve made my choice, now it’s up to you.

  • sigrid28

    In my opinion, one of the strongest ways the Democratic Party could contradict the Republican “we did build it” ads, would be to simply run the clip of President Obama making the statement Jonathan Alter cites above, with the text scrolling underneath. By contrast with flat-footed efforts by Republicans to frame the president’s remarks as a controversy, repetition of his exact statement, like Governor Romney’s off-key rendition of “America, the Beautiful,” would have the benefit of getting the correct version of the President’s phrase lodged inside the heads of voters, in a place from which they cannot dislodge it.

    Why would this work? First, this kind of ad would defuse the power of the Republican attack (weak as it is in being based on the lame device of taking President Obama’s words out of context), in much the same way that embracing the pejorative term “Obamacare” redeemed that word for Democrats without helping out Republicans with the pejorative term “Romneycare.” They still have to live with that (for Tea Partiers reading this, “they” refers to Republicans, and “that” refers to Romneycare.)

    Second, President Obama’s original statement, just as he said it, touches a nerve running deep within the American psyche: the desire to be helpful. When the United States was being settled, unsmiling, self-satisfied aristocrats stayed put in Europe and elsewhere, seduced by their enormous sense of entitlement. They felt certain their wealth insulated them entirely. Less wealthy, energetic people who wanted to get ahead and welcomed novelty came to America. Perhaps its a bit genetic that most Americans are pleased to be helpful and so do not despise receiving assistance, even if its just in the exchange of smiles. That’s why every spokesperson the Republicans put forward to tout the “we did build it” idea eventually goes off message, and can’t help listing all the individuals who helped them along the way. MSNBC has made a lot of hay out of this.

    Governor Romney, on the other hand, is hampered in many ways by his sense of entitlement. He makes $10,000 bets. He tells prospective campaign donors he’s not on the side of people who want “free stuff.” The lovably eccentric family in that hotel commercial who “love free stuff” need not apply for a place of respect in Romney’s world. We see Romney’s enormous sense of entitlement in his wooden grin, where the mouth is fixed but the eyes stray or glance without looking in your face. We see a trace of this same sense of entitlement in Vice President Cheney’s famous sneer. Even, I’m afraid, in Senator McCain’s failure to get down in the mud when it came to picking out his vice presidential nominee. He left it to inferiors.

    So, if the repetition of President Obama’s actual use of the phrase “you didn’t build that” is not persuasive enough, perhaps the president’s campaign could run a second ad, addressing the subject of entitlement. Visuals for the entitlement ad would consist of photos of some of Governor Romney’s palatial estates (aerial views to protect his property from riffraff), dressage horses (at home in the paddock and at the Olympics), jet skis at his beachfront (there’s already a lot of stock footage of this), and cars (both with and without pedigree dogs in carriers on the top). In the upper right-hand corder of each photo in the montage, you could affix that Romney campaign pendant that reads “we did build that.” For the soundtrack, all you need is “Crown Imperial” or some other classical music that screams royalty. This is a very inexpensive ad to create because Governor Romney is so proud of his self-made millions that he is like the poster child of the 1%.

    • Gammaanya

      Bravo.

    • ObozoMustGo

      siggy.. how many hits from the bong did you have to take to create this fantasy? I’m just askin……

      Have a nice day!

      • sigrid28

        OK. I will give you a little attention, since you ask for it so nicely. I’m actually a little surprised you read the whole thing. Or is this your go to insult for any comment you’re too lazy to read or too preoccupied to understand? I’m sure you’ve stopped reading by now, so I’ll sign off.

      • jarheadgene

        No one needs to light up a bong to know about Romney and his STUFF….but sigrid, forgive me, maybe too much bong made you forget about the CAR ELEVATOR.

  • ObozoMustGo: Don’t waste your time with Obozo zombies and unconditionals like Lynda and highpckts.
    You can’t fix stupid …

  • montanabill

    Say what you will. Do a little research. You will find a lot companies that started with little but an idea, some personal capital and a lot of sweat equity. By the way, take an idea to a bank and see if they will lend you money to start a business. That will be your first lesson in real life.

    • DukeDacat

      Hey Bill,
      Do us good folks, whom are genuine “Montanans” a favor and change your handle to something that is more fitting your true character like, “BullshitBill”

      You sir, are an imposter and a charlatan.

      I am just saying… Have a nice day…

  • And Romney made billions on the backs of the middle income people…he sent the jobs overseas and is now trying to become president so he can bring than money back to his empire…GOD HELP US ALL IF HE IS ELECTED!

  • dljones

    Gam: What has your man Obama done to satisfy your needs and avert your socialist pain? Have some more kool aid.

    • jarheadgene

      If he is the “socialist” you FAUX news watchers claim he is….he isn’t a very good one. May as well start admitting he isn’t one. Look at the DOW and the S&P and how much money the vulture, I mean venture capitalists have made during his administration.

  • hildaB

    Pres. Obama and his spokes persons must continue to emphasize that it is the House Republicans who are responsible for our low economy based on the fact that his (Obama)Jobs Creation bill is stalled in Congress. Now is the time for our President to use his ‘EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE authority to start infrastructure programs; i.e., bridges, tunnels, roads and more. We are not talking here about thousands of jobs, but millions; from nails to beams to concrete, on and on. I just hope it is not too late, with only 100 days to Nov. 6 . Speak out loud, clear and often. Convince Americans, as you can do so beautifully, the truth of which you speak.

  • Not to mention the countless military men and women who have died in order to pave the way for freedom to flourish in our country. Business men owe our military and the government big time, and the dense conservative ego driven brain had better get wrapped around that concept.

  • totenkatz

    The government doesn’t build anything because the government isn’t a business. The government may fund a road or bridge project and hire a private company to build it. However the government doesn’t make money it receives money from tax payers. So WE build it not the government, the government used the money they get from taxes and fees. If you believe you are getting something free from the government, you may be getting it for free, like health care, but someone else is paying for it through their taxes. So if you don’t pay income tax you are probably okay with others paying more just so you keep getting the free stuff. Remember there’s no such thing as a free lunch, someone somewhere paid for it!

    • jarheadgene

      And since the Bush tax cuts it has been us middle class that have put that money there.

    • Dave_dido

      So I guess,using your logic, McDonalds hasn’t built thousands of restaurants- it was the contractors and subcontractors who built them. McDonalds just used the money it got from its customers. And the U.S.Government under Eisenhower didn’t build a national system of highways- it was Guido and Sons Asphalt Co. that built it. You Tea Partiers are really a confused bunch! Our country was doing very well for itself until you decided you didn’t want to pay taxes anymore. Now you can’t even bring yourselves to show a little gratitude to the country that laid the foundation for your success. What a pathetic bunch of dimwitted idealogues! You should have been born in Mali- then see where your entrepreneurial heroics would get you. How about it, Montana Bill? Do you think you could have built your pseudo-multi-million dollar business in Mali?

  • Americans understand this, True Americans will agree with the context of what President Obama’s message was!
    Republican’s will continue to utilize there key tactics, even in business practices! Misinterpretation of context, in this and all cases involving the political opposition, Look for the “LOOP-HOLES” approach to get there, Utilize other peoples money (SEC/IRS Evasion) to cover your private/business expensives is a far cry from “”TRANSPARENCY””.

    As taught in small business class, you have to “Spend Money to Make Money”……….

    Then there are the “creative” ones, Loop-hole seekers, those who will add a twist to that general rule: “Just not your own”…..

  • Ed

    Once upon a time americans learned a basic lesson in scjhool and church. “No man is an island iunto himslef, each is a part of the whole, a piece of the main. If a clod of england slips into the sea europe is the less. Ask not for whome the bell tolls, it tolls for THEE!”

  • How about the “risk takers” that went down with pick and shovels into the mines, and the “risk takers” who put on a police uniform, or invested six years in getting a teacher’s certificate, or jumped on the back of a fire truck? How about the “risk takers” who ACTUALLY DO THE PRODUCING in our society? Bring back the 90% tax bracket and restore some sense and order to our system. The ultra-rich are plundering America.

  • turnipgreens

    wow, some people are still taking the President’s words out of context. Are you capable of really understanding that no man is an island, that we are all part of a society that rewards and punishes for good or errant behavior? If you need no help to do it all yourself, your must be carving figurines or something. But wait, do you actually sell them to people? if you make, buy, sell, or even give away stuff, you don’t operate alone. You tea party folks will spend a lot of energy hating the left, but at the end of the day, you know we care more about the average Joe than you do.

  • dtgraham

    I can hardly believe that an entire political party, and supporting conservative media, could construct a campaign based on a simple misunderstanding of one word in a follow up sentence. He mentioned basic infrastructure and then said, in the next breath, that businesses didn’t build “that”. Instead of repeating the noun(s) from the previous sentence, he simply inserted the article “that” as representing what he had just referred to and had been talking about.

    That’s just English grammar, but it doesn’t make any sense anyway. Governments aren’t in the business of building widget factories and call centers for business people whenever they request them, and everybody knows that. No U.S. President would ever say that and neither would anybody else. It doesn’t even make any sense. This is really getting nuts.

  • Maureen Morena Solis Hice

    I would be an idiot to think that in my business,which I started on my own without a loan from a bank or any other financial means,that without a support system around me,that I could have made it a success…Yes, I have a vast knowledge about my business,but need others to help me complete the task that customers hire me to do..

  • BlogLiberally

    As apparently one of the ONLY guys that have seen Mitt’s tax returns why hasn’t John McCain gone to the Senate floor to defend Romney? Any idea why he wouldn’t if what Harry Reid said wasn’t true.

  • Dave_dido

    Did you read the article about Sandy Weill, Bill? No comment, huh? You really should read it because it addresses exactly what we’re talking about here.
    Of course Sheldon Adelson has only one vote. The point is that he is buying influence that diminishes the power of my vote and your vote. If elections were run on public funds then Sheldon Adelson would be no more important to a legislator than you or I would be. That legislator would be beholden to no one but his/her electorate. A wealthy person should not
    be able to carry more weight than an average Joe in a representative democracy. Are you saying that it’s OK for the wealthy to carry more influence because of their ability to pay for it?
    You’re all wet about a Walmart clerk’s having the same opportunities as Romney to shelter money. The Walmart clerk cannot utilize that phony, created for wealthy Wall-Streeters,shelter on “future income”. And, yes, it is perfectly legal for Romney to use this loophole. The question is: why is it there in the first place? It’s obviously there for people with a lot of money to shelter, not for the Walmart guy.
    Finally, I don’t think I’m reading anything into your posts that you haven’t put there. Who exactly are you talking about when you refer to the 50% who don’t pay any taxes? Aren’t these the people who don’t make enough money to have to pay taxes, i.e., the poor.Are you honoring them when you call them the “takers”? Am I mistaken, or isn’t this whom you blame for the deficit?

  • JackieAllen

    Sir, I will say that the President could have phrased his comments better. My grandfather
    was one of Texas’ greatest criminal lawyers of his day. He and his brothers formed Mays and
    Mays –Attnys.a criminal law firm in Fort Worth. At his death, the Senate of Texas, by rising
    vote set aside a page that day in the journal in honor of my grand father, Charles Mays Sr. The Proclimation
    mentioned “rugged individualism” which Texans have always valued. Pilot Point was
    considered the “big city” as he grew up on a farm not far from Denton. We are
    talking about the early 1900s in Texas. My grand father never had to put his name on a
    contract, because his word was good and he was a man of honor and integrity. I grew up
    with book shelves filled with wonderful books authored by such great men as Thomas Paine, or the Origin of the Species
    by Darwin, etc. Grand father was free to achieve greatness, in a free society.
    Grand father also felt like Jefferson when it came to religion (man’s inhumanity to man),
    which has been a deadly force in this government you dislike. Obama knows, as do
    many of us that our government is the backbone of society. If the President was raised
    with the values you say he has, then I must through in my family as well.

  • jambajack9 Brown

    The problem is that too many people want help without earning it… I travel work, is that really what I love to do,(no) be away from my family and friends….NO but i believe if the economy gets tough you have to find a way to survive. there is work out there but people dont want to sacrifice anything to work it they think everything should always be perfect…. my grandparent and parents didn’t have it this way why does my generation think they are special????? people traveled all over the country looking for work during the depression bringing their families with them now we have the convince of flying that makes it possible to work in different areas and live in others but this is too much sacrifice… it is riduculous

  • jambajack9 Brown

    isnt Toranto spelled Toronto?

  • jambajack9 Brown

    oh by the way I’m self employed with no college…. yet able to find work that pays 3 times what the other people in my generation make….why? I work hard and dont bitch about how unfair it is to have to do something that is hard….. why should i pay for the lazy fucking people who dont want to have to be away from there perfect little hometown? I pay 38% in taxes its bullshit

  • I didn’t build my business? So when I failed did my employees help pay my loans that I still owed? Did the government help pay off the lease I still owed money on? Apparently everyone takes credit for the success. But the failure is all me. Please.

  • And the government creates roads. Well there was a time when the government didn’t. But be that as it may, were the workers government workers? Did the government create the tools they used? Did the government mine the rock used for the road? Did the government make the machines to lay the asphalt? The government contracted for these things and the people were paid. I contract to have someone build my house. Do I ow him anything beyond my money? No. Since the government doesn’t even have money without first taking it from the people, it is absurd to say we owe the government for the roads and hence the success of my or anyone’s business.

  • The fallacy is, you believe if government does not supply it, then it does not happen. So the idea of schools was created by the government. The idea of roads was created by the government. The idea of farming was created by the government. Cars were created by the government. Etc.
    You may believe the government supplies these things at a better price than the market. I do not. But to say there would be no . . . .
    is just wrong.