By Brad Friedman

VIDEO: 2009 ABC News Experiment Demonstrates More Guns Unlikely to Stop Mass Shootings

December 21, 2012 5:22 pm Category: Memo Pad 104 Comments A+ / A-
[Update: During a disastrous post-Newtown press conference on Friday, exactly one week after the mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, the NRA's CEO and Executive Vice President (and chief liar) Wayne LaPierre said: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." More on that presser now here, but the following article, published prior to the NRA debacle, goes a long way towards pre-bunking LaPierre's main contention.]

Originally posted at Brad Blog

There have been a lot of absurd claims by the folks scammed by the NRA racket into believing that nothing can be done to decrease gun violence following last week’s horrific mass shooting in Newtown, CT.

(Our personal favorite was the one that failed the quickest: The claim that the stabbing of 20 schoolchildren in China on the very same day as the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre proves that putting responsible limitations on gun and high-capacity magazine ownership won’t help stop these types of tragedies. The reason that response failed so quickly? The wingnuts using it apparently failed to read the actual story to learn that none of the children were actually killed in that attack.)

The excuse for taking no action in the wake of Newtown that has had the longest shelf life to date seems to be the notion that if only someone in the school — or in the movie theater, or in the shopping mall, or in the Sikh temple, etc. — had been armed, the tragedy would have been averted.

BRAD BLOG commenter “JPack80″ recently proffered the same silly notion:

If more law abiding responsible people had concealed carry permits and were able and willing to use their firearms when necessary, how many of you anti-gun nuts really believe he would have gotten off more than one or two shots in a school?

Setting aside his obvious strawman — folks like us are no more “anti-gun nuts” than the vast majority of NRA members (if not their con-man leadership) who agree we should have increased gun safety regulations — JPack80′s thin argument, and that of the millions of other wingnuts making the same weak case, is quickly debunked by a few fairly easy to understand points. (There are many more, but we’ll stick to two for the moment, since some folks making this case may have trouble counting higher than that.)

First, how many shots did the Fort Hood shooter get off when he opened fire — killing 13 and wounding 29 others — in the middle of a U.S. Army base, filled with people carrying loaded weapons and many more with easy access to them? (Answer: About 200 rounds, which also included shootouts with two armed officers, the first of which was hit three times before she went down. But, see update below for additional thoughts on this.)

It is also true that both Columbine and Virginia Tech had armed security officers on campus, as little good as that did anybody, during the mass shootings there. Let’s also not forget the trained New York City police who attempted to stop a gunman at the Empire State Building over the summer. They ended up shooting nine (9) innocent bystanders in the bargain.

And, during Friday’s ridiculous news conference by the NRA’s Wayne LaPierre, where he called for “a police officer in every single school” because “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” the Brady Campaign’s Sarah Brady, wife of Ronald Reagan’s press secretary James Brady, who was almost killed during the 1981 assassination attempt on the president, took to Twitter to respond to LaPierre’s point by noting: “Wayne, a gun in the hands of Secret Service didn’t stop Hinkley from wounding Pres. Reagan and 3 others including my husband.” Our coverage of that bizarre presser now here…]

But the more damning response to the foolish point that “more people with guns are the best way to stop mass shootings” is found in this 2009 ABC video showing how people with guns, and training, actually react when confronted by something like a sudden, surprise shooting. Watch the results of the experiment — using some folks with relatively little gun training as well as some who are trained marksmen – to see how well that whole “if only someone was armed during these shootings they could have stopped the shooter!” argument holds up…

 

PART 1…
 
PART 2…

 

So, what’s your next, dumb, non-solution for these problems, wingnuts?

 

* * *
 

UPDATE: Several commenters written to take issue with our description of the Fort Hood shootings having taken place “in the middle of a U.S. Army base, filled with people carrying loaded weapons and many more with easy access to them.”

They have noted that personnel on base, other than security officers, are not allowed to carry loaded weapons. Their point seems to be, apparently, that it would be easier for an elementary school principal to hear about a shooting on campus, run to her office (if she happened to be there that day), unlock her weapon, retrieve it, and respond to a mass shooting with at least as much speed and effectiveness as U.S. Army personnel were able to radio or call for military police to respond at the scene of the Fort Hood shootings where, by the way, the first armed officer to arrive was felled after being hit by the assailant three times. The second armed respondent, a trained member of the Dept. of Army Civilian Police, was finally able to take down the shooter and take him into custody.

We believe our original point still stands, and that a secured U.S. Army base is ultimately as capable of responding, if not more so, to such a shooting — or in the case of Fort Hood, not capable of responding to it quickly enough to prevent mass casualties — as an elementary school principal, or someone in a darkened, tear gas-filled, sold-out movie theater would be. But we’re happy to note that there are those who, apparently, see it differently somehow.

We’ve also updated the article above to cite the incidents where armed security officers similarly failed to prevent the 1981 assassination attempt on President Reagan, the mass shootings at Columbine and Virginia Tech, and to note the nine innocent bystanders randomly shot by NYC police officers during their attempt to apprehend a gunman at the Empire State building in the summer of 2012.

VIDEO: 2009 ABC News Experiment Demonstrates More Guns Unlikely to Stop Mass Shootings Reviewed by on . [Update: During a disastrous post-Newtown press conference on Friday, exactly one week after the mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, the NRA's CE [Update: During a disastrous post-Newtown press conference on Friday, exactly one week after the mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, the NRA's CE Rating:

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Comments

  • lana ward

    If the teachers had been armed, those 20 dead babies would be alive. Period!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Jones/827014412 Daniel Jones

      No. They. Would. Not.

      Instead, there would be about 30 dead kids, a couple more staff killed, and probably a dead cop or two in the bargain.

      Never for the last time, **More guns do NOT solve gun issues.**

      This guy showed a real tendency to take and fire other people’s guns, and he would have used the dead armed teacher’s gun ojn more kids before the body got cold.

      Period.

      • lana ward

        You’re nuts!! ALL teachers should carry a gun. I’ll be carrying mine, with no one knowing. Period!! It’s funny, all of you who say get rid of guns are the same ones who think it’s fine to murder unborn babies!! MERRY CHRISTMAS

        • foolsdance

          And you want to save ALL babies, so you can then abandon them to poverty, starvation, abuse… once out of the womb you don’t give a rat’s ass about them.

          • lana ward

            Where are the babies rights? Why shouldn’t they have the right to live? You don’t want a baby? Prevent it from happening. Once you’re pregnant, IT’S NOT just YOUR body anymore. Murder isn’t the answer. Many people would love to adopt

          • WhutHeSaid

            YOU should not have a gun, because you are a nut-case. This is not a discussion about abortion. You are just another one of those rabid, bigot nut-bags that wants to impose your will upon others. You will NOT get your way, but I would fully support the government coming to your house and snatching away ANYTHING dangerous that you might own — including guns.

          • lana ward

            This comment was not to you. So go blow your nose or whatever, idiot

          • WhutHeSaid

            I don’t care who the comment was intended for, you nut. You are a nut-case and should not be allowed anywhere near a gun.

          • lana ward

            Merry Christmas- and remember, Jesus is the ONLY reason for the season–that’s why the Godless running our country are trying to do away with it!!!!

          • WhutHeSaid

            You remember: If Jesus were upon the Earth right now, he would smite down all racist bigots like you without delay. Lying imposter — there is nothing God-like about you, nothing.

          • lana ward

            Read your comments. Is there anything God like about you?

          • WhutHeSaid

            Yep, if I didn’t run into racist zealots I would have only good things to say. I would say ‘Merry Christmas’ to you too, except what you consider ‘merry’ is likely black children being killed by firearms, burning crosses, and other evil deeds. So in light of your racist beliefs, you would probably deserve to wake up in the morning with reindeer shit all over your lawn.

          • lana ward

            No, if you only run into commies you would only have good things to say. Your mind sure does wander, all the dreams you spit out. If reindeer shit is on my lawn in the morning, at least I’ll know Santa was here, you won’t

          • WhutHeSaid

            Jesus would rip your tongue out of your head if he was on Earth today. Vile racists committing evil in the name of God are the lowest of all human scum bar none.

          • lana ward

            Wow, we are talking about Omuslim now!! You’re right , that is him, spot on!!

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

            His name is President Obama.

            And, I am curious where you or anyone else can find any REALproof that President Obama is a Muslim.

            Another thing – I have worked with Muslims in the past. And all of them were verygood, hardworkingpeople. I haveserious doubts that Jesus would not love them, probably more thansome of the hatefilled, so called “Christians”.

          • lana ward

            Omuslim is a muslim. Where is your proof he isn’t?. I never said muslims wern’t hard working people. I’m saying they are taking over our country. They are taking away all of out traditions and it will soon be law that we follow theirs. The United States of Islam. I don’t want to be a muslim nation and I hate them for what they are doing. You seem smart, why can’t you see what’s going on?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

            I do not recall any of the teachings of Jesus that condones the use of violence, particularly where the possibility of an escalation of violence may be the final outcome.

            I THOUGHT JESUS WAS ABOUT FORGIVENESS AND CARING. NOT ABOUT WHO HAS THE MOST KILLING POWER IN A GIVEN SITUATION.

          • lana ward

            I wasn’t referring to guns. Jesus is the only reason for the season, that’s why the Godless running our country are trying to do away with Christmas. Christians and Christianity are under attack all the time. Everything is accepted except Christianity!!

        • WhutHeSaid

          You are an incredible idiot. YOU shout not be allowed in the same zip code as a gun.

          • lana ward

            You are a Godless idiot. We have to protect ourselves from Godless idiots’ who have a gun

          • WhutHeSaid

            YOU are what we need to protect ourselves from — bigoted, hateful, ignorant rednecks. You have no idea and no say over my relationship with God — that just underscores your ignorance and vile demeanor.

          • lana ward

            I can tell your relationship with God isn’t good or doesn’t exist. God isn’t allowed, that is why there is a murder problem. Shootings will get much, much worse. No God, evil abounds

          • WhutHeSaid

            You are a liar, and you are going to meet your real father — Satan. You know nothing about my faith. You are vile and evil, and I’m certain that you are headed for an eternity roasting in Hell. You deserve it.

          • lana ward

            Thank you. You have a nice day too!

          • WhutHeSaid

            You’re welcome. Racist zealots should get a visit every year too — from ‘Satan Claus’. I’m sure he has your very own fiery pit all ready for you!

          • lana ward

            You said your already in Satans’ firey pit waiting for someone? Other commies will be there soon

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

            Who is going to protect us from you?

          • lana ward

            Who’s going to protect us from criminals AND the government if we have no guns? The government has millions of weapons and ammunition to use on citizens who don’t abide by their law when Omuslim “transforms America”

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

          GOD HELP US!!!

          I pray that you are NEVER ANYWHERE NEAR A CLASSROOM if there is even a hint of an armed attack.

    • foolsdance

      Did you watch the videos? Are you really that nuts? Just because you know how to fire a gun and hit a paper target or a grazing deer DOES NOT mean you would be successful in a surprise attack. You and your ilk just spew your mindless mantra in the face of all evidence to the contrary – no ability to absorb facts or reality.

      • lana ward

        You certainly won’t be successful if you don’t have a gun. With a gun, you at least stand a chance. Omuslim is using this nightmare to get everyones guns. He doesn’t give a rip about those kids, he doesn’t want us to be able to protect ourselves from his government. If someone confronted you with a gun, your gonna wish you had one!!

        • foolsdance

          Pardon me, I mistook you for the garden variety right wing nutcase. Now that I see you are full on psycho, I know better than to bother engaging you or reading anything you have to say.

          • lana ward

            Get a gun before you’re not allowed to. MERRY CHRISTMAS

          • old_blu

            lana I read the other day about your son, I’m very sorry about that, but please don’t go through life scared and angry.

            And Merry Christmas to you.

          • lana ward

            Thank you old_blu!! I miss Brad so much!! I hope you and you’re family have a Merry Christmas too! Bless you

        • tootiredoftheright

          Funny that the mass shooters that got taken down by civilians the civilians were unarmed. The armed ones were afraid of pulling their guns because they would be shot.

          • lana ward

            That’s not funny at all! That’s great. But you still stand a better chance if you have a gun. Look at the Trayvon Martin case, he would have killed Zimmerman if Zimmerman hadn’t had a gun

          • tootiredoftheright

            Florida has a nasty double standard to self defense. Blacks if they kill a white in self defense even with witnesses and police records showing the white to have a history of violent criminal behavior the black person gets charged and convicted of murder.

            If a white person kills a black person with no witnesses and the white person has a criminal record and history of violence such as starting fights the white person gets off scot free.

          • WhutHeSaid

            You are an utter and complete moron. Did you learn this while gazing into your crystal ball? It’s clear that Trayvon Martin would be alive if George Zimmerman didn’t have a gun, and there’s no evidence that Trayvon had any interest in George Zimmerman until he noticed that he was being stalked.

            You are a liar. You only support George Zimmerman because he killed a black boy, and you are a bitter racist. If Trayvon had been white it would be a completely different story. Vile and despicable people like you are the real problem, and it will be a happy day when you bigoted, evil scumbags are extinct.

          • lana ward

            This comment wasn’t directed to you either. Boy, you gotta get your nose in everything(you sure your not a woman?) Like I said, Merry Christmas–RACIST!!

          • WhutHeSaid

            I hope you enjoy your visit from Satan Claus. Some day soon he will call you home for good.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

            I am surprised you are using the gender card.

          • lana ward

            Being politicly correct is what is wrong with America too!! What happened to free speech?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/HFYZP2APYPP7H6PWS2ZDQRWFEQ Hillbilly

            AS usual you are wrong, if George Zimmerman hadn’t had a gun and hadn’t confronted Martin after being told by the police not to, Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman wouldn’t be facing murder charges. Zimmerman was the one that upped the incidence when confronted Martin with his gun and since one of the people in the situation is dead all we have is one side of what happened and many do not believe Zimmerman is telling the whole truth. Also Zimmerman had no legal right to confront Martin, he wasn’t the police and Martin wasn’t doing anything wrong when he was confronted by an armed man in civilian clothes with no law powers to confront him or question him or anything else. According to the neighborhood watch association for that neighborhood Zimmerman wasn’t a member of the group and never had been so he can’t use that lie anymore to justify his stalking and stopping of Martin who was not breaking the law. REMEMBER ZIMMERMAN IS THE ONE THAT STARTED THE WHOLE THING WHEN HE CONFRONTED MARTIN AND DREW HIS GUN IT WASN’T THE OTHER WAY AROUND MARTIN DIDN’T START ANYTHING UNTIL CONFRONTED WITH A MAN WITH A GUN.

          • Justin Napolitano

            Zimmerman is a killer. He killed an unarmed teenager who was trying to protect himself from an aggressor. Zimmerman was told not to confront the kid but initiate the incident that cost Trayvon his life. I hope Zimmerman gets a stiff jail term and has nightmares for the rest of his life. He is the best example why we should never let people wander the street with guns.

          • lana ward

            People “wander” the streets with guns all the time looking for someone to hold up. That’s why we need guns to protect ourselves from them! The only defense against a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. Don’t have a gun if you don’t want one, but don’t tell others they can’t have one!! Martin would have been a killer if Zimmerman hadn’t had a gun to protect himself!!

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

            With what, his soda and his twinkie?

          • lana ward

            His fists. He WAS NOT some innocent little kid, he was a thug.

        • WhutHeSaid

          I have always supported the 2nd Amendment, but I can tell you that it’s idiots like you that are the biggest threat to gun ownership. Because you spout ignorant, ridiculous lies instead of facts — your only achievement with such statements is to convince all of America that too many nut cases have access to guns. If you are too much of an idiot to be trusted to make realistic public statements, you are probably too much of an idiot to responsibly handle a weapon.

          It’s time to reassess our gun policies, as many pro-2nd Amendment people have now admitted. Freedom does not equate to stupidity.

          • lana ward

            Dems taking God out of America and an evil heart are the problem. Guns are not the problem, idiot. We’ve had guns forever. The more Godless people there are, the more those people are shooting people just to shoot!! This will happen more and more, no matter what gun policies we have. People are evil without God. So idiot, don’t call me idiot.

          • WhutHeSaid

            Human ignorance is the problem — not the presence or absence of God. Al Qaeda also believes in God, you ignorant moron. If we had less ignorant morons (such as you) who pretend to believe in God we’d all be better off. You are stupid and evil WITH God, so who’s the idiot here?

          • lana ward

            The absence of God IS the problem!! Al Qaeda has a false god you ignorant moron!! That’s why they are evil!! If ignorant morons like you would give God a chance, there would be less ignorant morons around. (Do you like the way you sound, moron) If more people would try God, America would have less evil and less shootings, moron

          • WhutHeSaid

            God doesn’t want vile, despicable, nut cases. You obviously know nothing about God, so just quit your lying. God does NOT believe in RACISM, and you are a RACIST. Racists are by definition both Godless and mentally defective. Therefore you are simply a mentally defective nut-case, and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a gun or a pulpit.

          • lana ward

            And God “wants” those who will cut your head off for disagreeing with them ?

          • WhutHeSaid

            God himself would probably do worse to people like you if he were here to witness your vile deeds. Jesus never suffered evil-doers gladly, and he had special disdain for those who pretended to be holy while pursuing evil. He would whip you on sight — of that I have no doubt!

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charlie-Watkins/100001075495857 Charlie Watkins

            Al Quaeda is a Muslim organization, Muslims worship the same God as Christians do, as it is one of the Abrahamic religions. The three major Abrahamic religions are Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Therefore, using your reasoning, you worship a false God. If this is news to you, it illustrates your ignorance.

          • lana ward

            Muslims DO NOT worship the Deity, the God of the Bible. This illustrates your ignorance

          • jointerjohn

            If you believe in a god that can be removed or barred from anywhere by any human being, philosophy or law, he can’t possibly be a god! Idiot is actually a kind compliment in your case.

        • sleepvark

          Now we see, yours is just a silly political stance. Take a look at hyper-armed societies and see what really happens. Start with Bosnia. Then go live there a while. If you survive, see how this affects your thinking.

          • lana ward

            “Gun free zones” have more gun violence. Criminals know they are easy targets

          • WhutHeSaid

            You are a nut case, and you should be committed to a psychiatric ward for a proper evaluation. Also, you should NEVER, EVER be allowed near a gun.

          • lana ward

            You really are insane. Do you think criminals are going to confront someone if they know they have a gun?!! WOW!

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/HFYZP2APYPP7H6PWS2ZDQRWFEQ Hillbilly

            Yes dummy they will especially if there is more than one so they can have one more gun in their arsenal the one you were carrying and also they are more likely to use your gun to kill you. Guns are not the answer to everything and people use guns to like other people and the gun users are not all mentally ill most are just angry or upset with the person they shoot.

        • metrognome3830

          Well, Lana, I sure wouldn’t want to be confronted by you with a gun. I wouldn’t only be worried about myself but also about how many innocent bystanders you might kill or injure while protecting yourself.

          • lana ward

            Well that’s the way it goes, isn’t it. I’ll bet you would wish you had a gun if someone broke into your house in the middle of the night

          • Justin Napolitano

            This subject is about how someone with some firearm training would react in a chaotic situation. Even in your own home you may not perform much better. In fact many innocent people are killed in their own homes when a relative shoots them thinking they are an intruder.

          • lana ward

            And YOU will for sure be shot and killed if you don’t have a gun, the way all the Godless punks are these days!!

          • metrognome3830

            Well, maybe Lana. But I have gone 74 years now without one single break-in. I can’t rule out the possibility of it ever happening, but I like my chances. I would feel safer sneaking up behind them and whacking them with a baseball bat than getting into a firefight in a dark house in the middle of the night. But you go right ahead and do it your way.

          • lana ward

            No one knows what they can do until it happens

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/ZJ5BBSQIGTUMERPZFALES6HQNY Bill

        Don’t waste your time on Lana, she just makes the foolish and ignorant comments. She can never back up her wiild claims with any facts. Yoe are 100% correct with the analogy of shootng at targets versus being in some type of fire fight with another person(s) shooting at you.

    • Justin Napolitano

      Lana, please stop making a fool of yourself. This article and video clearly showed that the odds of a teacher taking down the Newtown shooter was about zero.
      I can always count on you to write the most ridicules comments. Congratulations you have done it again.

      • lana ward

        Where are the videos of when those who carry guns have STOPPED assults and even murders?? That’s what I love about you commies–Your NEVER fair and balanced!!!

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

          I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME OF THOSE VIDEO’S. OR THAT VIDEO.

          Not some staged video that is just a propaganda piece taken by the NRA.

          • lana ward

            I would love to see them too. But the MSM would never show anything that proves their beliefs are wrong. You’ve never heard where gun owners have chased off thugs? Happens all the time

  • http://www.facebook.com/fmalbert Fred Albert

    And after you shoot a child by mistake, then what? How about you keep your gun secured and locked up? I don’t recall anyone giving you the right to protect anyone but yourself.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jim.peterson.779642 Jim Peterson

    This video shows nothing but what happens when you put a gun in the hands of people that know NOTHING. Responsible CCW holders actually practice and train all the time and not just shooting at paper. There is a big difference between a person that carries on a daily basis and practices with the gun they carry and giving a random person a holster and a gun they have never used or even held before. This is a VERY dishonest video with an agenda if they were not trying to prove their own biased point they would have had trianed people on that actually carried and let them used a gun and holster that they carry and train with. By the way the girl that did have skills that did actually hit the guy would very likely have stopped the guy she hit in his tracks. There is a reason these shooters hit soft targets and that is because they do not expect to get shot themmselves and if they do there is a real good chance that will be enough to stop them.

    • johninPCFL

      She hit him in the arm with a grazing wound AFTER she had three abdominal wounds. There is no info about whether her first shot hit him, or whether her first shots were any of the multiple hits to the floor and whiteboard.

      So, given that CCW holders “train all the time” and this is a new job responsibility for the teachers, who pays for their shiny new insurance policy (for when they hit a student) and all that training? Or is it now part of their “patriotic duty to the state”?

    • http://BradBlog.com/ Brad Friedman

      “Responsible CCW holders actually practice and train all the time and not just shooting at paper.” — Really? Not the ones I know. But are you calling for such a requirement, say, once a month or so, for all CCW holders in order to maintain their permits? If so, sounds good to me! Let us know!

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/HFYZP2APYPP7H6PWS2ZDQRWFEQ Hillbilly

      People that have been trained to kill have been known to freeze at times and are unable to use their weapons, so why do people believe that a person that hasn’t been trained to kill won’t do the the same thing. Also even with all the training police officers do in regards to hitting their felon they don’t always hit their felon and their bullets go wild. So if people trained to kill and police that have to qualify at least twice a year can’t shoot or hit a shooter what makes gun owners think they can do better than people that trained to keep a cool head and steady hand when shooting at someone and they still miss the felon. A lot of gun owners see themselves as this person that will save the day no matter what not realizing it takes a lot more to shoot a person than just having a gun.

  • FredAppell

    There are 2 words that can shut down the argument for arming teachers. Fort Hood. One madman on a military base full of armed people and yet look at the chaos he was able to create before someone finally got a shot on him. Hell, Reagan was almost assassinated and he was surrounded by highly trained men who not only were trained to kill, but were also trained to sniff out people before they become a threat. I am not criticizing anyone who was involved in these cases but they are perfect examples of why arming teachers is futile.

    • ZincKidd

      I would agree, and am sympathetic with your point but the response I’ve heard to this argument is that most of the soldiers in Fort Hood weren’t actually armed. I’m no expert on Fort Hood so I can’t confirm or deny or explain this, but it’s something to look into if you’re planning on using this argument…

      • FredAppell

        I know, I really stepped into it when I posted that comment about Fort Hood. An hour or so after I made that comment I Wiki ‘ed Fort Hood and right in the first paragraph it says the shootings happened in a gun free zone. My immediate reaction was ” oh sh*t” now i’m going to catch crap for that one. You absolutely did the right thing by correcting me so consider this my official retraction. But I stand by the rest of my comment.

        • johninPCFL

          Yes, all the individual soldiers weren’t armed, but they certainly knew where the armory was and could have responded had they been trained to. But, like the teachers and all other civilians, their training didn’t include identifying a local threat (not in a war zone) and responding with deadly force.

          The police suggest that relaxing on threat training results in loss (or diminution) of response after a month or so. So, in addition to providing the $700 weapon, the armor-piercing ammo, and the $3000 body armor, the taxpayers will be on the hook for a few $300 training sessions per armed teacher per year.

          • FredAppell

            Thanks man, you helped me out with my argument. I thought about that too but I didn’t want to make a lengthy comment but still, I should have done a little more research first. Live and learn.

          • johninPCFL

            Hopefully, if you’re living, you’re learning.

            Just one of those oddities in life, my ninth grade english teacher felt it was part of his responsibility to teach all the guys in class to properly tie a necktie. Not just the quick half-Windsor, mind you, but the double, the full Windsor, and two others not used often anymore.

          • FredAppell

            That’s what my life is all about. I live by that code and sometimes I f*ck up pretty good. By the way, thanks for the anecdote about your ninth grade teacher, it gave me some fond memories and made me smile. That’s a great Christmas gift, thank you. John, you have a Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate and be happy, safe and healthy.

          • johninPCFL

            Right back atcha, Fred. My best to you and yours.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dominick.vila.1 Dominick Vila

    The massacres in Newtown, Aurora, Virginia Tech, the Sikh Temple, Tucson and so many others only have one thing in common: easy access to guns. Many of the victims in these place would still be alive if the attacker had been wielding a knife, a hammer or a 2×4. It is not easy to run away from semi-automatic weapons, especially when they are equipped with high capacity magazines. What we never hear from gun lovers is a justification for having weapons and capabilities designed for warfare.

  • montanabill

    Anybody that has to resort to name calling is much like the person who points a finger at someone else for some purported failing. It is usual that you recognize the trait because you are also guilty of it.

  • alumahead

    Having more guns didn’t help at the OK Corral and it’s worse today with high tech weaponry. If more guns help then carrying ten guns is better than one. But the problem is you are getting ambushed out of the blue. Only the ambusher knows what’s about to happen. How many gunmen where taken out during the experiments? None that I noticed, they all killed or wounded the ambushed civilians without effort.

  • usworker3

    After the initial shock and rethinking the NRA pres offer of placing volunteers at schools to act as guards .. I think we should take the nuts .. er – pres’s offer … Have them place a volunteer at EVERY school in the US (colleges and ALL schools) – The would also be required to PAY for it as well .. and if the guard fails in his/her guard job .. he/she is SHOT ….by a selected firing squad from the NRA board..

    • lana ward

      The government would have money to pay for protecting our kids if Omuslim would stop sending MILLIONS around the world to mosques and quit giving BILLIONS to the UN!!!

      • WhutHeSaid

        The best thing that could be done to protect our children would be to eject all of the racist human garbage from the country. Better yet, from the world — no use inflicting the human trash that is the racist on anyone else.

  • Michelle Rose

    That video is a perfect refutation of LaPierre’s claim that “ordinary armed citizens” could have done ANYTHING to prevent the Sandy Hook massacre, or any other similar incident.

    In short, the only way it could have been prevented is if that sick kid had been denied access to a gun.

    It does not surprise me that LaPierre and the NRA claim that ” a good guy with a gun” could have stopped the shooter(s). Not only is the macho American notion of “citizen superhero” at work here, but also the queerly distorted notion that ONLY a gun can impart: invincibility as conferred by that gun.

    It may be a media-inflicted bias. In the movies and on TV, the bad guys first paint people repellent on their bullets so that none of the good guys are ever shot, including firefights with fully-automatic rifles. This is a physical impossibility, of course,but 50+ years of cinema and television has convinced our collective subconscious otherwise. We really do believe that, in a deadly situation, we could, individually, save the day without getting more than a minor flesh wound because that’s what always happens to the hero and aren’t we all, collectively, heroes just like in the movies?

    Nope, we sure as hell aren’t. Instead, we’re simply another grim statistic. I once heard a marvelous definition of “hero” as defined by Joss Whedon, the brilliant director of “Buffy”, “Firefly/Serenity”, and the Avengers movie: “You know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets others killed.”

    Works for me.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charlie-Watkins/100001075495857 Charlie Watkins

    Jim, the key word in your post is “Responsible”. Most CCW holders aren’t. Many of them have absolutely no firearms experience outside of very limited time on a firing range, which is nothing like a real firefight. An example would be the many people who post about how the story would have been different if a few CCW holders would have been in that theatre when the shootings occure

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1710087686 Bob Shipp

    Enough bled, enough said.

    • lana ward

      Dole bled, Clinton fled

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/ZJ5BBSQIGTUMERPZFALES6HQNY Bill

        and W hid out in the Arkansas National Guard. Lana do you know why he is called “W”. It’s so he knows how to spell his name!! Though I’ve heard that he sometimes spells it “UU”. If you are an example of a good christian then I would rather be an atheist.

        • lana ward

          All Godless people hate good. That’s why all you commies hate Bush. Evil hates good

        • lana ward

          Everyone says how smart Omuslim is. Yea, he’s so smart, he’s ashamed to release his records !!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Myers/100001512942781 Jim Myers

    And yet, you will never convince the macho, “I DARE ANYONE TO TRY THAT WHEN I’M AROUND” crowd.

    I still say – REAL MEN DO NOT NEED TO PACK HEAT TO PROVE THEY ARE REAL MEN.

  • rothgar

    Even if we have armed and trained personnel in the schools that is unlikely to solve anything either. Anyone that we would trust to have a gun in a school or similar building is not going to be crazy enough to deal with a crazy shooter. As happened in the Tucson shooting the trained person will typically not be able to shoot the Criminal since they will have been trained to not shoot into a situation where they could hit an innocent bystander. Remember in the incident where Rep Giffords was injured there was an armed guard in place but Mr. Lochner was subdued by an unarmed person when he had to reload. I had this thought confirmed by the former superintendent of a local Police/Sheriff Academy.

  • http://www.facebook.com/max.overton.12 Max Overton

    It seems to me that the stumbling block in every argument is the 2nd Amendment which is held to be a sacred right passed down from God and cannot be tampered with in any way. It puts me in mind of another ‘holy’ text that tells you to stone adulterers to death. Civilized society has managed to move past that ‘God-given’ injunction – why can’t we move past the other? I’m not an American, so I’m not overly familiar with Constitutional Law, but isn’t it possible to modify an amendment to make it more compliant with the times we live in, yet still respect people’s rights?

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