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Anti-Planned Parenthood Activists Get Indicted For Their Attempted Sting Operation

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Anti-Planned Parenthood Activists Get Indicted For Their Attempted Sting Operation

David Daleiden

Score one for Planned Parenthood.

The non-profit healthcare organization, often smeared by conservatives because some affiliates offer abortions, was targeted last summer by a group of anti-abortion activists known as the Center for Medical Progress (CMP), which, in a series of deceptively-edited and secretly-recorded videos purported to prove that Planned Parenthood was illegally selling fetal tissue.

Despite a multitude of state and congressional probes, no wrongdoing was ever found until today — when those who started the smear campaign found themselves in serious legal trouble.

David Daleiden and Sandra Merritt, respectively the project leader and one of the women found to be undercover in at least one of the videos shot in California , were indicted for tampering with a government record in Houston, Texas — a felony that carries a penalty of up to 20 years imprisonment. According to the Houston Chronicle, those charges stem from allegations that Daleiden and Merritt “used aliases, obtained fake government I.D.s, and formed a fake tissue procurement company” in their efforts to entrap Planned Parenthood on video.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott and Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick called for an investigation last summer into Planned Parenthood after a video released by the Center For Medical Progress showing personnel in its Houston clinic discussing procedures for fetal tissue procurement.

“We were called upon to investigate allegations of criminal conduct by Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast,” said Harris County District Attorney Devon Anderson. “As I stated at the outset of this investigation, we must go where the evidence leads us. All the evidence uncovered in the course of this investigation was presented to the grand jury.”

Daleiden was also indicted on charges of purchasing and selling human organs — precisely the same charge he was trying to get Planned Parenthood executives on — reported Houston Chronicle reporter Brian M. Rosenthal.

Daleiden is no stranger to the courts. In September, two courts ordered him to turn over recordings and documents pertaining to the video footage, in suits brought by the National Abortion Federation, which alleged that CMP secretly attended and filmed inside their conferences, and StemExpress, one of the companies that works with Planned Parenthood.

The outcry provoked by the CMP video became an element in an effort by Tea Party Republicans in Congress to shut down the government, because Planned Parenthood receives federal funding. Those calls to shut down the government were nothing but a political ploy; President Obama affirmed his support for Planned Parenthood and promised to veto any bills that would strike their funding.

Eventually CMP’s videos were featured on another political stage, when Carly Fiorina referred to them in the September 16 Republican debate. In November, a man who shot three people inside a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs drew attention to them as well.

Photo: David Daleiden could be going to jail for those Center for Medical Progress videos. American Life League/Flickr



  1. tomtype January 26, 2016

    I find it extra interesting that David Daleiden and Sandra Merritt were indicted. They must have been really over the top. Normally the investigation would have focused on PP and whether it did everything right or wrong. But it seems only right and proper that when there is so much outright lying that the liars and false accusers be given justice too.

  2. David January 26, 2016

    Hey Stephanie–
    Read your link that the videos were “deceptively edited”. It took me to another of your articles. You never explain exactly how the videos were “deceptively edited”. Obviously, you don’t like what PP was recorded saying in the videos. Murdering for money is disgusting isn’t it?

    1. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

      Your statement is flat out wrong, and now proven so by the REPUBLICAN District Attorney.
      Planned Parenthood – legal, fair, and open.
      CMC, Center For Medical Progress, illegal, fraudulent, liars.

      So no David, you are obviously a RWNJ partisan idiot, even Ms. Anderson says Daleiden and Merritt are liars and practiced frauds.

      Also no dictionary definition of abortion includes the word “murder” You are a Christian fool, easily conned by liars and thieves, and this somehow make you feel superior to PP, the rule of law, or anything you don’t agree with. Congrats!

      1. David January 26, 2016

        Guess what? You apparently have great difficulty in comprehending what you read. Where does anything in what the DA was quoted as saying indicate that the videos were deceptive and that’s why the indictment was issued? In fact, the indictment was for tampering with a governmental record — they used a fake driver’s license. How does it feel to be shown to the Internet as a confused proponent of murdering the unborn?

        1. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

          Yes, tampering with government records is DECEPTIVE, and a FELONY! Even Republican DA AGREE.

          So, you are proving my point, Thanks!

          Sorry, “murdering the unborn” is of course, a lie, congrats again, you are easily conned by liars and frauds., again, proving my point.

          1. David January 26, 2016

            “Proving your point”? You said the grand jury exonerated P.P. and I explained that it was not what they did. Are you seriously that incapable of understanding what you read, or just choose to bleat your unsubstantiated opinions?

          2. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

            You, “explained” that the grand jury, did NOT exonerate PP, when clearly they did.
            So your “opinion” is worth more than the jury? Yea, right.

          3. David January 26, 2016

            How is returning an indictment for using a false drivers license “exonerating PP”? My opinion is that you need to go back to school.

          4. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

            Avoidance and diversion… again.

          5. JPHALL January 26, 2016

            So what did the Grand Jury of any investigating state indict Planned Parenthood for? Oh yeah! Nothing! No indictment, according to the law, no crime proven. Try again!

          6. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

            Diversion from the point.

          7. David January 26, 2016

            Please, don’t refer to yourself as an “idiot”. That would be demeaning to the intellectually challenged.

        2. Grannysmovin January 26, 2016

          “The donation of aborted human fetal tissue may come as a shock to a public but it is, in fact, a longstanding one. According to the American Society for Cell Biology, scientists have been researching human fetal tissue since the 1930s, with aborted tissue playing a part in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s development of the rubella and varicella vaccines in the 1960s (PDF). Ronald Reagan put a hold on using fetal tissue for transplants in 1988 while other forms of fetal tissue research continued and Bill Clinton subsequently lifted Reagan’s moratorium in 1993.”


          “. Federal law regarding the use of human fetal tissue does not prohibit the use of donated materials. [Title 42 U.S. Code § 289g-2, Accessed7/14/15]

          Health And Human Services Independent Review Board: Providers May Accept Payment “For Reasonable Expenses” With “Informed Consent.” The set of standards outlined by the Health And Human Services Independent Review Board guidebook, the industry standard for medical research, explains that payment for fetal tissue may be obtained “for reasonable expenses occasioned by the actual retrieval, storage, preparation, and transportation of the tissues”


          1. FireBaron January 26, 2016

            Granny, you’re using facts again. You know folks like David will never understand facts.

        3. jakenhyde January 26, 2016

          @David. Use your head. The grand jury found no wrong doing on the part of P.P. That means they were innocent. The only other conclusion that can be drawn is that the films were edited and deceptive in their final form. Otherwise, as presented, the films would have shown that P.P. was guilty of selling body parts.
          I love the irony that Daleiden and Merrit have been indicted on charges of attempting to buy body parts. What great comedy!

          1. David January 26, 2016

            Sorry, the grand jury did NOT explore the veracity of the claims against P.P. They were only asked if there was probable cause that the Center for Medical Progress had violated the law. The Harris County grand jury makes no findings. Welcome to the Texas Rules of Criminal Procedure.

          2. jakenhyde January 26, 2016

            Don’t be sorry. You can bet your sweet bippie that if that republican grand jury thought that P.P. was doing anything wrong….video or not…they would have come down hard on P.P.
            The fact that they indicted the two culprits who foisted that doctored video(yes, it was proven by experts to have been doctored) tells us who the true culprits are.
            I realize that an indictment does prove guilt. But when a grand jury brings one forth, it usually means they’ve got some pretty heavy evidence to back their play.

          3. David January 26, 2016

            “Doctored video”? How was it doctored? “Proven by experts”? Who, when and where did these “experts” perform this examination? Bet you don’t provide the answers to these questions!

          4. jmprint January 26, 2016

            Don’t have to when you are dealing with fantasies. Unles you were in front of the jury, you are just grasping with your rants.

          5. David January 26, 2016

            Of course you wouldn’t/couldn’t respond to my questions. You are proven to be a liar! What’s the matter? Can’t provide any evidence to support your bleatings? Guess that makes you an proven liar now, doesn’t it?

          6. jakenhyde January 26, 2016

            David. You won’t believe the truth anyway because you’re evidently too much of a zealot to see the truth. But here are a couple of links that prove that the video was edited(doctored if you will) in an effort to falsely put P.P. in a dark light.



          7. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            Doctored? That’s an understatement; the original video was butchered to create a figment of your imagination.

            Read this you complete idiot!!

            3 Deceptive Edits In The Video Claiming Planned Parenthood Is “Selling Aborted Baby Parts”

            Here’s just the lead-in to one example of how the video was “doctored”.

            Unedited Transcript: “Nobody Should Be ‘Selling’ Tissue. That’s Just Not The Goal Here.” The Center for Medical Progress also released a full transcript and longer version of the video with Dr. Nucatola — featuring more than 150 minutes of additional footage — which include crucial portions that were edited out. In one case, Nucatola says, “no affiliate should be doing anything that’s not like, reasonable and customary. This is not- nobody should be ‘selling’ tissue. That’s just not the goal here.” From the Center for Medical Progress’ transcript (emphasis added):

            Go here to see how they doctored it:


          8. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

            “What do you mean it wasn’t doctored? You mean it’s true? Prove it. I bet you don’t post proof that the videos are all true and have not been edited deceptively!”
            PS You’re a moron

            And I suspect you are a paid Astroturfer
            No one could be this persistently idiotic without it being their job.
            So… is there a nice ring-binder of arguments to make beside you “David”?
            Are you typing what they pay you to?
            Who is paying you?

          9. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            My sense is David is posting from either the RNC or the Heritage Foundation.

          10. Jinmichigan January 26, 2016

            Wrong, they were investigating PP. Learn to read.

          11. David January 26, 2016

            Learn the law. A grand jury determines if there is probable cause that an offense has occurred. Its determinations are as to a specific defendant. They do not “explore” and determine who will get indicted. They act on the information provided to them by the District Attorney. They did not return a “no bill” against P.P. because they were not asked to consider an indictment against P.P.
            “Learn to read”? Where in the article to you read that they “were investigating PP”?

          12. jmprint January 26, 2016

            “Texas Gov. Greg Abbott and Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick called for an investigation last summer into Planned Parenthood after a video released by the Center For Medical Progress showing personnel in its Houston clinic discussing procedures for fetal tissue procurement.” They have been raiding PP all over Texas and have found no wrong doing as of yet.

          13. Jinmichigan January 26, 2016

            Here is one article I found in less than 30 seconds.


            Learn to read.

          14. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

            Several States have concluded their own investigations and found nothing.
            Ergo: PP not illegal.
            Ergo: Videos are deceptive.

        4. Independent1 January 26, 2016

          You just love to lie and turn truth into lies, don’t you. Fact is worthless, that shot of what was supposed to be a late term aborted fetus in the fabricated video, was actually a shot of an almost full-term still-born baby. Only a moron such as yourself would try to claim that that’s not deceptive. DO YOU EVER POST THE TRUTH?? I’VE NEVER SEEN ONE TRUTHFUL WORD IN ONE OF YOUR POSTS!!!!! YOU’RE CLEARLY A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR!!!!

          1. David January 26, 2016

            Kind of like those pieces of arms and legs which were aborted by P.P. and shown on the video as well? P.P. is nothing more than murderous scum — fits right in with their friends in ISIS.

          2. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            Wow!! You really are gullible aren’t you?? You believe everything you see including fabricated YouTube videos!!! Keep on living in fantasy land clueless!!!

          3. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            So is Mother Nature a murderer too?? More than 750,000 miscarriages occur each year where Mother Nature aborts A FETUS NOT A BABY!!! FETUSES ARE NOT BABIES!!!

          4. David January 26, 2016

            Even in our troubled country, a fetus/baby cannot be aborted after the first trimester without certain conditions being met. If you kill a pregnant woman, guess what?!?! You get tried for two murders. A miscarriage is completely different that the intentional killing of a baby.

          5. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            A miscarriage is different than an abortion? What!! In your demented mind?? A miscarriage is an abortion induced by something going wrong in a woman’s body!! More of your fabrications of reality!! You just love to live in fantasy land don’t you!!! (Oh!, and miscarriages don’t always follow the rule of occurring in the 1st trimester!!!)

          6. David January 26, 2016

            Wake up, Einstein. A miscarriage is nature. An abortion is man made.

          7. COMALite J January 31, 2016

            Actually, the word “abortion” is the noun version of the verb “abort.” To “abort” means to “terminate” (usually prematurely) some process such as, in this case, pregnancy.

            Whether the cause of the termination is natural or artificial has absolutely zero bearing on this. A miscarriage is a natural abortion. It’s what the word literally means.

          8. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            And maybe you can explain why if you’re supposedly pro-life, you’re supporting a movement that actually results in more abortions happening and more women dying due to failed black market abortions done by quacks!!
            Let’s hear your explanation to that one. (Studies have shown more abortions occur where they are illegal.)

          9. David January 26, 2016

            Pro life “results in more abortions happening”? Oh, I get it. Because there is a pro-life movement, some women will want to get pregnant so that they can get an abortion or some women who would not have gotten an abortion will now choose to get one just to show the pro-lifers up. Right! I believe that! You said that “studies have shown more abortions occur where they are illegal…” Okay. What study or studies are you referring to that show where abortion is illegal that the number of abortions is greater than where it is legal.
            I guess I am as moronic as the jurists on the United States Supreme Court. They ruled no unlimited abortions after the first trimester. Gee, does that mean that there are laws which dictate to women whether or not that they can carry a fetus to term? Gosh!

          10. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            Your idiocy knows no limits!! Keep living in denial!!!

          11. David January 26, 2016

            Can’t answer my questions? Not surprised. How does it feel to be called out and proven to be an idiot?

          12. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

            The point was the videos are deceptive.
            You failed to address the point and instead changed topics.
            Typical bullsh!t by a Religio-Republican Wingnut.
            Never admits they have lost, or addresses an inconveniently true point… just avoid avoid avoid.

          13. David January 26, 2016

            I said the videos were NOT deceptive. Tell me how they were deceptive.

          14. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

            All of the “fetuses” in the “video” were proven lies.

            Remember they were SUED by the woman who’s still born they “edited” into the video.

            So, no, only in your delusional mind are “arms and legs” shown in a PP video. Congrats, still showing you believe liars and frauds.

          15. Independent1 January 26, 2016

            And that’s not hard to do when your a pathological liar and fraud yourself like David.

    2. indiokie January 26, 2016

      Your a special kind of idiot aren’t you.

      1. David January 26, 2016

        Special enough to cause you grief! By the way, it’s “you’re” not “your”. Darn that Common Core!

        1. indiokie January 26, 2016

          I believe the grief is all yours now that you’ve been proven a liar.

          1. David January 26, 2016

            Proven? What have I posted that isn’t true?

          2. jmprint January 26, 2016

            What you have proven is to be a ideological moron, just like the rest of the Tea Party.

          3. David January 26, 2016

            Can’t provide an answer can you? I guess you are proven again to be incompetent and someone who struggles with reality. Keep up slinging insults at me — you have nothing else!

          4. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

            It makes a nice break from the regurgitated Fox News talking points mixed with wingnut evangelical swill that dribbles from your keyboard.

          5. JPHALL January 26, 2016

            Still avoiding the facts I see. When the truth comes out you always project your wish for proving your point since you cannot do it on your own. What a loser!

    3. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

      If you can’t work it out for yourself, I’m not going to explain it. You’ve obviously never watched a Reality TV episode… or believed a politician was lying… and you probably thought Obama told you all that you “Didn’t build that”.

      The explanation for how these were deceptively edited is freely available on almost all mainstream media platforms, for those who know how to use any search engine.

  3. 1Zoe55 January 26, 2016

    So, the skinny white guy and the crazed Fiorina are caught in a web of lies. Daleiden, since you do not have a uterus or vagina, just shut up and pay up. Fiorina, at least you get to have a say, but if you are against abortion, do not have one. But then you never have had children, have you? Due to the Hyde Act there are no federal funds used in the abortions that are performed at Planned Parenthood. Think about it, an old dead guy still ruling from his grave. I would suggest that CMP work toward providing accessible birth control for everyone, so that there would be no need for abortions.

  4. noonloon January 26, 2016

    As part of the punishment they receive, these people should be forced to make a public statement on national television stating clearly who they work for and exactly what they did.

    1. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

      Not a punishment for them, they are proud that they are nutjobs.

      1. noonloon January 26, 2016

        I agree with you, but I still hear misinformed people talking about this situation using imaginary facts.

  5. geaaronson January 26, 2016

    The forging of federal documents is by far the more serious charge and if true, will more than likely end up in prison time. The other charge is bogus as it is standard investigative practice and should not be curtailed by any federal inquiry. Otherwise whistle blowing advocacy groups of all ideological stripes would be hard pressed to find out the truth. Governmental investigatory agencies have the right to offer inducements to felonies in order to capture criminals. Why shouldn’t private groups digging into malfeasance not be allowed the same. When there is criminal activity, does it matter whether it’s private citizens or public overseers who do the investigation?

    1. FireBaron January 26, 2016

      Interestingly enough, one of the documents that will really be getting them into trouble is the Social Security ID Card. This document is now required by anyone looking to generate any revenue handling operation. If they forged SSID cards, that is the Federal offense.

  6. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

    These two people from CMC, plus a commentator or two, suffer from/have the perverse religious notion that THEIR particular ideas of life are universal and apply to all peoples.

    Why do people of religion feel this way?
    No religion, anywhere, anytime, have EVER proven this to be true, yet almost every religion, tries to force this stuff on the rest of us.

    Grow up, leave us alone, we don’t care what RWNJ lies you believe, that DOES NOT give you the right to force those ideas on us. We don’t believe you.

    1. FireBaron January 26, 2016

      Ironically enough, had the Federal or State government attempted to force a different religious morality down their respective throats they would be screaming the loudest.
      Apparently they do not believe what is good for the goose, etc…

  7. kingartie1 January 26, 2016

    So Mr. Cruz is running a campaign which is hollering “look at me, look at me, I’m a tough, carpet-bombing truth-teller!” He gathered part of his momentum by his late ’15 threat to shut down the government if it were to budget ’16 funds for Planned Parenthood because these videos were such vivid, livid proof of PP’s corruption and its violation of all human decency, blah blah blah. Now, of course, we know, as many non-zombie air breathers have known all along, that the videos were a fraud. The people who perpetrated that fraud have been indicted. It is logical to assume, though of course not likely to be proved, that Cruz and his cohort, Ms. Fiorina, knew as well all along that the videos were a shameful sham scam. Who wants to bet me a week’s pay that neither Cruz nor Fiorina will ever mention, much less apologize for, their ludicrous and venal grandstanding of bogus outrage over these videos? Much less admit that the whole charade was a filthy-trick set-up designed to shove one of them down our throats. This is Mr. Cruz: an oily prevaricating, cynical, manipulative, ruthless used car salesman. If the reporters and media covering his campaign have anything like a pair of balls they will ask him, repeatedly until he utters a meaningful answer, what and when he knew about the sham scam of these “baby parts, kicking and screaming fetus” videos, and how he thinks his early fervid support for this abject fraudulence in an attempt to empower himself is anything like a harbinger of what would be a Cruz administration. To most minds who are paying attention, he has already disqualified his own candidacy.

    1. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

      Unfortunately most Americans (especially GOP) are not “minds who are paying attention”.

  8. Kurt CPI January 26, 2016

    Here’s the consummate example of ideology over morality. One group of people who are morally outraged by the acts of another are willing to commit their own immoral acts to thwart the source of their personal outrage. The difference here is that the acts of the ideologues are illegal. What they did is not OK.

    1. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

      Accurately and succinctly put. 🙂

  9. nana4gj January 26, 2016

    Kurt CPI: and “the kid”, Rubio, is so arrested in intellectual and social development, that he cannot distinguish the difference as you so aptly did.

    Once this “kid” gets his own ideas, a mac truck cannot dissuade him or cause him to take another look. He still believes Cuba is the enemy of freedom and a threat to the US.

    Is he so rigid? Or is he, simply, lazy in intellectual process?

  10. Jerpell January 26, 2016

    Major victory for planned parenthood?….So they can continue to keep killing harmless babies?……So in this day and age this is considered a victory?…..What on earth has happened to our morals as human beings?…There has to be a better way!

    1. COMALite J January 26, 2016

      Planned Parenthood doesn’t kill babies. They provide a wide variety of health care to women (and men) who otherwise couldn’t afford it (even with the ACA, thanks to it being gutted in most “red states).

      Some Planned Parenthood affiliates do provide abortions as part of this, but that’s only a small percentage of what they do. They do not sell the fetal tissue for profit. They donate it on behalf of the parent(s) of the fetus if that is their desire (many see that as being better than simply throwing it away, that the child they had hoped for but couldn’t have for whatever reason [often medical] can at least help others to live as its one-and-only act in this world). For this, they did negotiate the equivalent of a “shipping and handling” fee for the cost of transporting (“shipping”) and storing (“handling”) the tissue, but that’s no more profiting from it than Amazon or other legitimate and above-board online and mail-order / phone-order outlets profit from the S&H charges that they impose on products that you buy from them (some dishonest ones do charge excessive S&H and attempt to profit thereby, but there’s no actual evidence of PP doing any such thing).

      Fetuses are not babies. Even the Bible says this in several places directly commanded by the Lᴏʀᴅ God of Israel Himself. According to His Law of Moses, Personhood doesn’t begin until age one month after birth! (Yes, I can prove that. Ask me if you dare.)

      1. Jerpell January 26, 2016

        Your right…..I don’t argue with Dimwitrats……
        Have a good day!

        1. Independent1 January 26, 2016


          1. Larry Gagnon January 26, 2016

            If we have a million more unwanted babies, what happens to them? Can we find people to adopt and care for them? There are hundreds of thousands of children in foster care in the U.S. now. I hope that some of the people who oppose abortion will find it in their hearts to adopt.

          2. ralphkr January 26, 2016

            Don’t worry, Larry. The GOP needs those millions for cannon fodder.

        2. COMALite J January 26, 2016

          If you resort to insults (note that I never insulted you), then that must mean that you have no actual rebuttal(s) to any of the points that I raised, or else you would’ve used them.

          Shall I accept your implied concession of complete and utter defeat on this matter?

          For the record, I have never been registered Democratic. I have been registered Republican. I’m currently No Party, and was Libertarian for most of my adult life.

          I also note that you apparently didn’t even have sufficient courage of your convictions to accept my challenge on the Bible re: Onset of Personhood issue.

      2. David January 26, 2016

        I dare you!

        1. COMALite J January 26, 2016

          Okay, but just remember, you asked for this.

          The Lᴏʀᴅ God of the Old Testament and especially the Mosaic Law did not consider the unborn at any stage, or even newborns for that matter, to be fully Persons! For Him, as a matter of Law or commandment, the demarcation was age one month after birth!! Prior to that, they were not to be numbered nor counted as Persons (seven times His Law says this, and twice He Himself commands it, in Numbers Chapter 3 alone, and still more times elsewhere in the Law!), nor were they assigned any monetary value whatsoever, unlike all other age groups (Leviticus Chapter 27, Numbers Chapter 18).

          In Exodus 21:22–25, there is a law about what to do if a man causes a pregnant woman to lose her child(ren): if the woman herself is not seriously harmed, then the man has to pay a fine to the husband. That’s it. A fine. (This, mind you, in the very same chapter and just eight verses after a passage that states that for a child to curse either parent is a capital offense!) Only if the mother is harmed is there a worse penalty, and that based on the harm done to her (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, etc.)

          Note that the KJV and some other translations are ambiguous on the point as to whether “harm” or “mischief” refers to harm to the mother, the prematurely born child, or both, but many other versions make it quite plain that the harm must be done to the mother to warrant worse than a fine, and that the infant is miscarried — and no translation that I’ve ever seen [and I’ve seen dozens] unambiguously says that the harm would be to the child or both or even either! Not. One.

          There’s also the simple reality that back then they didn’t know about “trimesters” and such, nor did they have neonatal ICUs and incubators and such nor even the primitive herbal medications available in Egypt [remember, they had Exodused and were wandering in the desert wilderness when these commandments were given — the air of a desert is pretty much the 180° diametric opposite of that of NICUs and incubators!] — premature babies always died, every single time, without exception! That’s how they knew that it was even premature! That’s how they defined the term back then: if the baby survived, then it wasn’t premature, by definition!

          Moving right along, next up is Numbers Chapter 5. Ah, Numbers Chapter 5. Is your wife acting suspicious? Maybe throwing up in the morning, or has skipped a period, yet you know you haven’t “known” her in that time? Take her to the Tabernacle (later replaced with the Temple), to the priests! They’ll brew up a special herbal tea made from dust from the Tabernacle floor (which would contain remnants of dried plants that grow in the desert, including herbs known to be abortifacients). This tea is “the bitter water that bringeth the curse.” When she drinks it, if she’s pregnant (presumably with another man’s baby), it will cause a miscarriage (the symptoms described are that of miscarriage: “the belly [womb] to swell and the thigh [female genitalia] to rot”).

          And there you have it: the Lᴏʀᴅ God Himself outright commanding induced abortion as a test of marital fidelity!!

          This is just for starters, by the way.

          1. David January 26, 2016

            Thank you for your reply! An interesting interpretation of some of the Old Testament. There is disagreement in the what you have concluded. Example, in Numbers 5, the punishment is NOT to her pregnancy, rather it is to her ABILITY to conceive and give birth to a child. In those days, a woman’s value was in large part determined on her ability to procreate. This would be a harsh punishment. See, Notes, Numbers 5:21
            As far as Exodus 21:22, when “there is no serious injury” then a fine is to be exacted. “But, if there is serious injury, you are to take eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.” The notes to the NIV version provide that serious injury applies to BOTH mother and child.
            God knows us and loves us BEFORE our birth. “Before I formed you in your mother’s womb I knew you.” Jer. 1-5 “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.” Ps. 139:13 To take the position that an unborn child is not considered as having any standing with our God is not accurate.

          2. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

            Wow… wow… wow….
            You just rationalised away God’s word, and totally avoided the point contained in the reference to Numbers Chapter 5 above.


            Why don’t you just admit that this is your personal belief and what God says about it has no bearing on it. You like your fixed beliefs about “what God says”… it gives you a sense of superior validation…. even if they are wrong, and even if God actually “says” something different elsewhere in the bible.

          3. David January 26, 2016

            Didn’t rationalize. Merely repeated that the punishment is for the ABILITY to conceive NOT for aborting a living being. Again, see the NIV Notes to Numbers 5:21
            This is NOT my opinion. It is what is in the NIV Bible.

          4. COMALite J January 31, 2016

            It’s what’s in the Notes in the NIV Bible, which means that it’s someone’s opinion, not itself part of the Word of God.

          5. COMALite J January 31, 2016

            Sorry for the delay. Been busy.

            First, let’s look in more detail at Exodus 21:22–25. I note that you referred to the notes in the NIV, which means you’re not a KJV-Onlyist. Good for you.

            What are these “Notes” that you cite? I just checked several online sources of the NIV, and the only footnote in that passage is on the phrase “gives birth prematurely” for which this is the note: “Or she has a miscarriage.” Are you referring to some separate commentary?

            Anyway, other translations disagree with the alleged claim of the NIV Notes in this regard. Here are several:

            22. If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.
            23. But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life…

            Douay-Rheims (Catholic)

            22. If men contend with each other, and a pregnant woman [interfering] is hurt so that she has a miscarriage, yet no further damage follows, [the one who hurt her] shall surely be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman’s husband, as much as the judges determine.
            23. But if any damage follows, then you shall give life for life,…

            The Amplified Bible (AMP)

            When there’s a fight and in the fight a pregnant woman is hit so that she miscarries but is not otherwise hurt, the one responsible has to pay whatever the husband demands in compensation. But if there is further damage, then you must give life for life—…

            The Message (MSG)

            22. Suppose a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriageª as the result of an injury caused by someone who is fighting. If she isn’t badly hurt, the one who injured her must pay whatever fine her husband demands and the judges approve. 23. But if she is seriously injured, the payment will be life for life, …

            Contemporary English Version (CEV)

            22. If men, while fighting, do damage to a woman with child, causing the loss of the child, but no other evil comes to her, the man will have to make payment up to the amount fixed by her husband, in agreement with the decision of the judges.
            23. But if damage comes to her, let life be given in payment for life,…

            Bible in Basic English (BBE)

            These are by no means the only ones to unambiguously make plain both that the baby dies regardless (the term “miscarr[y|iage]” or “loss of the child”) and makes clear that the further harm done that is to be punished more severely than a fine means exclusively and solely harm done to the woman). There are others as well, but these should suffice to show that many competent translators do indeed understand the passage this way.

            Conversely, there is not a single translation that I know of that unambiguously states that the unborn child or children survive, or that the harm done to be further punished by more than a mere fine refers to harm done to the unborn, nor even to both unborn and woman. Not. One. There are, as I said before, several that are ambiguous on this matter, but not a single one is unambiguous with your desired interpretation, and several flat-out contradict your desired interpretation on one or both counts.

            Even the translations that refer to the offspring being born “prematurely,” though, when the realities of the time and place are taken into account, and when read in conjunction with the other passages that I cited — even they do not allow for the possibility of the unborn child surviving in the scenario described.

            I already addressed this before which thoroughly debunked your NIV Notes interpretation even before you posted it, but apparently we need more clarification here:

            Keep in mind when and where we’re talking about. We’re not talking about a culture with access to modern hospitals with backup electrical generators, state-of-the-art Neonatal Intensive Care Units (NICU) or Premature ICUs (PICU), incubators, nor hyeline membrane treatment drugs. We’re not even talking about a time in which the medical knowledge of the day had any real knowledge of the processes of pregnancy and stages of development. They didn’t even fully understand that the time from conception to birth should normally be about nine months! This was a primitive Bronze Age tribe living in a desert, who no longer had access even to the herbal medical knowledge of the Egyptians whom they had just fled!

            Listen up: the lungs are among the very last things to develop just prior to full-term birth. After all, they’re not needed in the womb. They’re only needed after birth, but then boy howdy are they ever needed! The lungs of a newborn are huge in proportion to the rest of the body, compared to those of an adult or even older child, because the newborn needs a lot of oxygen!

            That very first breath that a newborn takes has to inflate its lungs from scratch — an enormous effort! One of the last things to develop in the lungs is the hyeline membrane, which helps prop the air sacs (aveoli) open once they inflate. Without that, the aveoli and thus the lungs collapse right after being inflated, and the premature newborn has to fully inflate then again and again and again, until finally death from exhaustion as much as suffocation ensues. This is hyeline membrane syndrome, the main killer of premature infants.

            Premies require precise temperature and humidity (high humidity to help keep the premature lung surface from drying out) control (thus the incubators), as well as drugs that help speed up the production of the hyeline membrane, and do its job until the membrane is ready to take over.

            Conditions in a desert are the 180° diametric opposite of this. The humidity is very low! The temperatures vary wildly, from blisteringly hot by day to frigidly freezing cold by night!

            This, coupled with the fact that they didn’t know the details of the “nine months” thing, meant that they had only one way to even tell if a baby was “premature” or not. At the time, the term “premature” was defined as the baby dying! If the baby lived, then it was not considered premature, by definition! There was no such thing as a premature baby that lived, by their understanding! Not even once! That wasn’t even a possibility to consider in the Law!

            So if the woman gave birth prematurely, that meant that the fetus died, again by definition! Therefore, even in the seemingly ambiguous versions, the passage by this understanding clearly means harm to the mother can be a capital offense, but even death to the fetus was only a fining offense.

            It would be like the FAA making regulations about what a jet airliner at cruising altitude must do to avoid a collision with an aircraft carrier in its flight path. That situation would never come up (outside of the Marvel Comics universe, anyway), so why make a law specifying it?

      3. @HawaiianTater January 26, 2016

        Offering facts to a forced-birth zealot is like explaining the theory of gravity to a tree stump. Sure, you can do it, but it’s an effort in futility.

    2. Jinmichigan January 26, 2016

      Master of hyperbole? Maybe not a master, but definitely mis-guided.

    3. jmprint January 26, 2016

      Abortion are legal have been for the last 5 decades. Nobody is killing harmless babies. Women are aborting unwanted pregencies. Morals, when men stop abusing women, then we can talk about morals.

    4. ray January 26, 2016

      We can start with free birth control for women.

    5. RED January 26, 2016

      Hey douchebag, when your god stops killing children and letting themdie of starvation and all manner of other diseases, then give us a call. Until then stfu, sit down and keep your stupid to yourself!

    6. Insinnergy January 26, 2016

      Welcome to being the epitome of “Blinded by your own Belief System”.

      Let’s Recap:
      You’ve missed the point here…
      “Freedom” means you don’t get to dictate what others have to do just because you happen to believe in stupid ideas.
      They get to choose for themselves.

      That must suck when you’re so sure you have All The Answers(tm).

  11. @HawaiianTater January 26, 2016

    PP has been investigated by many states and not once have they been found guilty of breaking the law. These are red states who investigated PP, mind you. If they had found ANY iota of wrongdoing, they would have stopped at no length to shut down PP.

    The people who produced the fraudulent videos, however, ARE guilty of breaking the law. And they will pay the price for it, deservedly so.

    No matter how much conservatives want to whine about “murdering babies”, the fact is, PP operates within the confines of the law and abortion is legal. Sorry (not sorry) but you don’t get to control women’s bodies because your “religion” makes you think abortion is a sin. If you don’t want an abortion, don’t have an abortion. Everyone else gets to choose for themselves. It really is that simple.

    1. 11thStPopulist January 26, 2016

      In truth Planned Parenthooh prevents the need for abortion by providing low cost birth control options to women. They also screen for cancer. Right-wingers simply do not care about the health of women, however. Their quest in trying to shut down much needed health services for low income women is the same as their desire to repeal Obamacare – control.

  12. annienoel January 26, 2016

    Waiting for the apology from Carly, McConnell, etc. ZZZZZZZZ

  13. FireBaron January 26, 2016

    I bet this puts Greg Abbot’s panties in a bunch!

  14. yabbed January 26, 2016

    The world can sometimes turn so right. This is very satisfying.

  15. Paul Bass January 26, 2016

    BTW to commentator David and his ilk:

    Have you ever noticed that you have more comments than thumbs up? That tells you that on average NOT EVEN ONE PERSON believes your comments.

    That sums up what we at NM think of you, Otto, Joe Schmo, etc. Boo Hoo, sorry no one believes you here, why don’t you go to Fox, the RWNJ will think you are swell.

  16. Gary Graves January 26, 2016

    It is time to stop people from slandering others with false accusations about Planned Parenthood.. They should spend time in jail and be sued. Deliden has been in trouble before.


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