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‘Religious Liberty’ Looks A Lot Like Intolerance From Here

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‘Religious Liberty’ Looks A Lot Like Intolerance From Here


“To me,” she said in a statement, “this has never been a gay or lesbian issue. It is about marriage and God’s word. It is a matter of religious liberty.”

It’s telling that Kim Davis chose those words to defend herself last week. Davis, the clerk of Rowan County, a rural, impoverished, and previously obscure patch of northeastern Kentucky, made international headlines for her refusal to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. She had, should it need saying, not a legal leg to stand on, the Supreme Court having ruled in June that states may not bar such couples from marrying. On Thursday, Davis was jailed for contempt. The thrice-divorced clerk had said she was acting upon “God’s authority” and fighting for “religious liberty.”

The political right has long had a genius for wrapping noxious notions in code that sounds benign and even noble. The “Patriot Act,” “family values,” and “right to work.” are fruits of that genius. “Religious liberty” is poised to become their latest masterpiece, the “states’ rights” of the battle for a more homophobic America.

A few months ago, you will recall, “religious liberty” was claimed as the rationale for failed laws in Indiana and Arkansas that would have empowered businesses to refuse service to gay people. The Atlanta Journal Constitution reports that Georgia lawmakers will introduce a new “religious liberty” bill there next year. Last week, Mike Huckabee praised Davis for “standing strong for religious liberty.” Chris Christie, while conceding the need to obey the law, spoke of the need to “protect religious liberty,”

As if religious liberty were seriously in danger in one of the most religiously tolerant nations on Earth.

Of course, like all good code, this one hides its true meaning in the banality of its words. Most of us would likely support the right of Native Americans to ingest peyote in their religious rituals, or Jewish or Muslim inmates to grow beards. Some of us even believe no religious order can be required to ordain a woman, admit a congregant of a proscribed race or, yes, perform a same-sex marriage. We understand a core American principle that, within certain broad parameters, one’s right to practice one’s faith as one pleases is inviolable.

But “religious liberty” as defined by Davis and her supporters is about what happens in the wide world beyond those parameters, about whether there exists a right to deny ordinary, customary service and claim a religious basis for doing so. And there does not.

Davis is wrong for the same reasons Muslim cabbies in Minneapolis-St. Paul were wrong some years ago when they claimed a right to not carry passengers who had alcohol on them and Christian pharmacists were wrong when they claimed a right not to fill birth control prescriptions. You have a right to your religious conscience. You do not have a right to impose your conscience upon other people.

And if conscience impinges that heavily upon your business or your job, the solution is simple: Sell the business or quit the job. Otherwise, serve your customers and keep your conscience out of their affairs.

Taken to its logical conclusion, it is not just gay men and lesbians who are threatened by the “religious liberty” movement, but all of us. Is it too much of a stretch to suggest that most of us probably run afoul of somebody’s reading of their religion in some way or another? Who would welcome a future where you couldn’t just enter a place and expect service but, rather, must read the signs to determine if it caters to people of your sexual orientation, marital status, religion or race?

We tried something like that once. It didn’t work.

Sadly, if people like Kim Davis have their way, we may be required to try it again. They call it “religious liberty.”

It looks like intolerance from here.

(Leonard Pitts is a columnist for The Miami Herald, 1 Herald Plaza, Miami, FL, 33132. Readers may contact him via email at lpitts@miamiherald.com.

Photo: American Life League via Flickr

Leonard Pitts Jr.

Leonard Pitts Jr. is a nationally syndicated commentator, journalist, and novelist. Pitts' column for the Miami Herald deals with the intersection between race, politics, and culture, and has won him multiple awards including a Pulitzer Prize in 2004.

The highly regarded novel, Freeman (2009), is his most recent book.

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  1. FireBaron September 7, 2015

    Kim Davis also swore an oath to the same God that she claims she is serving by NOT issuing Marriage (note, I did not say “wedding”) licenses. That oath swore that she would follow the laws regarding her office. That means not only did she break one of the laws in Leviticus (disobeying a judge), but she is also an Oathbreaker. As she is using Leviticus in her justification to not issue marriage licenses to gays, she should be subject to the same “law” she recognizes. However, we, being a more civil and lenient people, are not calling for her public execution by stoning. A simple sitting on the steps of the County Hall for a year, while wearing ashes and a sack cloth should suffice.

    1. Yvonne Phelan September 7, 2015

      Kim Davis states ““To me this has never been a gay or lesbian issue. It is about marriage and God’s word. It is a matter of religious liberty.””

      I ask, what “God”? is she referring to? There are many religions in American that don’t share the same Bible where human editing has substantially altered the “Good Book”.

      I suggest you start from scratch and read Merlin Stone’s “When God was a woman” to better understand the evolution of “Goddess” to “God” and how human religion had so manipulated the words to fit current needs.

      1. pisces63 September 7, 2015

        In fact, I had a verbal one on one with a right wing columnist here, in Cleveland. I wrote Mary was not as important to Catholics until she was needed to convert druids. They had an earth mother type religion and she became the deciding factor in the conversion. He didn’t like that at all.

        1. JPHALL September 7, 2015

          How true. The church spent centuries putting women back in their place to salve the male ego. Women were too involved in the early church for the men who followed.

          1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            The men needed the chores done and meals cooked while they sat sipped wine and discussed how to get more money contributed to the collection plate so they could buy more wine.

    2. itsfun September 7, 2015

      Breaking their oaths seems to be a problem with more than one elected official. Obama is breaking his oath to enforce the laws of our nation when he refuses to enforce things like the current immigration laws.

      1. Grannysmovin September 7, 2015

        Reagan, Bush and Obama issued Executive Orders on Immigration. It has not been determined by the courts if Obama over reached.

        1. Joan September 7, 2015

          There is no sense replying to itsfun, unless you have unlimited time, patience and an endless supply of blood pressure medication. He is so Christian that he sees nothing wrong in deporting young people from this country who have been here most of their lives, graduated from our high schools and some of them from our institutes of higher learning. Some of the ones he wants to deport do not even speak the language of the country he wants to deport them too. He does not understand nuance, compassion and empathy are words with no meaning to him. Engage him if you wish – but it will be an exercise in futility. “There is none so blind than those who will not see” His antipathy towards our current President blinds him as assuredly as if his eyes had been plucked out.

          1. Independent1 September 7, 2015

            The only fault I find with your post, is suggesting that itsfun is a Christian. Sorry, but there’s absolutely nothing Christan about itsfun. He may think he’s Christian, but the term Conservative Christian is an oxymoron. A conservative and a true Christian are polar opposites and simply cannot exist within the same person. By definition, a conservative thinks of self before others (being resistive to change, being concerned first about who’s going to pay for that help someone else needs) – while true Christians are taught to think of others more highly than themselves and therefore being willing to help others inspite of the cost to them.

          2. Joan September 7, 2015

            I agree with you, however I decided to let him self identify on religion. I probably should not have capitalized the “c” in that case.

          3. David September 7, 2015

            The term ‘Conservative Christian’ is an oxymoron? Really? Kinda like ‘intelligent liberal’?

          4. paulyz September 7, 2015

            OR, tolerant Liberal.

          5. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Obviously, your idea of “tolerant” means listening to insulting and dishonest ranting by you and your friends and not objecting. Just more projection on your part.

          6. Independent1 September 7, 2015

            Given that study after study has shown that the average IQ of a liberal is higher than that of a conservative, I’ll let you figure that out. Studies have shown, that low IQ is one of the traits that makes people even migrate to conservative ideologies and actually become racist. And it’s their lower IQ that makes them resistant to change and not willing to accept ‘liberal ideas’.

            (Or their conservatives just because of their devious/evil nature.)

          7. David September 7, 2015

            Hmmm…is that one of those “studies” that show that liberals have difficulty moving from place to place because they have their heads shoved up their as-es?

          8. Independent1 September 7, 2015

            No they’re bona fide studies. Here’s one from LiveScience:

            Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice

            There’s no gentle way to put it: People who give in to racism and prejudice may simply be dumb, according to a new study that is bound to stir public controversy.

            The research finds that children with low intelligence are more likely to hold prejudiced attitudes as adults. These findings point to a vicious cycle, according to lead researcher Gordon Hodson, a psychologist at Brock University in Ontario. Low-intelligence adults tend to gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies, the study found. Those ideologies, in turn, stress hierarchy and resistance to change, attitudes that can contribute to prejudice,


          9. David September 7, 2015

            Some of the most prejudiced people I have dealt with are liberals on sites like this. Guess that explains their low IQs.

          10. Independent1 September 7, 2015

            You’re not seeing prejudice, you’re seeing contempt. The same contempt that you would feel if someone walked into your home at gunpoint and robbed everything you owned. Or the same feeling that a woman must have for someone who raped her.

            Because that’s exactly what Republicans have been doing to America especially since Reagan was in office- robbing are country of everything it ever stood for – raping it of every bit of honesty it ever had.

            How can people like you not see it?? How can the income inequality be such that 2% of the people in America can own half of all the income in the nation – while 250 million people only own 5%????

          11. David September 8, 2015

            Well, Obomo has done his best for 8 years. Maybe we need to let another 12 million illegals in the country. That way we can let them vote and get rid of this capitalistic society.

          12. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            More of your insanity!! You know very well that all immigrants, including illegals, commit FAR LESS crimes than American citizens. So those less than 11 million illegals now (the number has actually decreased since Obama took office), commit FAR LESS crimes than if they had been born IN THE U.S.!!

            And on top of that, without newly migrated immigrants, including illegals, having more babies than long-term American citizens, The U.S. population would have declined over the past 2-3 decades instead of increasing; and if you think the U.S. economy is sluggish today, just try to imagine it with companies dealing with fewer and fewer people every year. All you have to do is look at the rest of th world which is a continuing recession with a lot of reason being their populations are declining!!!

          13. David September 8, 2015

            Is that why 47% of the inmates in California are illegal aliens? Is that why 27% of all Federal Drug offenses are committed by illegals? They are so law abiding! Really? Tell that to the family of Kate Steinle.

          14. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            And there you go with your outright lies!! I have numerous studies that show that even though the CA population has more than 35% Hispanics that only 17% of the CA prison population is Hispanic – forget about illegals which are even less than that.

            You’re just spewing one lie after another!!!

          15. David September 8, 2015

            Lies? Illegal aliens made up 11% of the CA prison population in 2009. AR15.com
            13% in 2010. Bakersfieldnow.com
            25% in 2015. Snopes.com and numberusa.com
            This is AFTER California had to release 38 -46 Thousand prisoners as ordered by the US Supreme Court in 2011.
            Those are the facts as set out. Make your complaint to them.

          16. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            I don’t need to complain. I just know not to believe the lies published by right-wing PROPAGANDA WEBSITES like the ones you listed.

          17. David September 8, 2015

            You are right!!! Please don’t confuse you with the facts! Hey tell Kate Steinle’s family how great the illegals are in following the law. While you are at it, Google ‘prison population illegal alien’ and get an eyeful of how wonderful they are!

          18. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            Go stuff it somewhere will you!! For every Kate Steinle killed by an illegal, that were 10-20 killed by a long-term American citizen.

            And only a 1/2 wit would believe the stuff you believe. For you to believe that the illegal population has more than doubled in CA when America’s crime rate that past 15 years has plummeted to the lowest levels since the 1970s; and at the same time the illegal population has fallen due to the 2008 Great Recession and the outright hate expressed by you RWNJs; and the city in CA with the highest percentage of illegals, San Diego, is one of the 10 cities in America to see the sharpest decline in its crime rate; is just simply moronic on your part.

          19. David September 8, 2015

            Let’s see…if you are correct, then 10 to 5 per cent of all murders are committed by illegals. They don’t count for that much of our population — yet. Actually, according to the Govt Accounting Office, from 2003 -2009, illegal aliens committed murder at a rate of 22-37% as opposed to an average of 5.5% for non illegals.
            I don’t know about you, but I can’t wait to have more of them swim the Rio Grande and get over here!

          20. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            More total BS!! I don’t know where you manufacture those fake statistics from, but there’s no way they can be real given that not only do illegals commit 1/8 to 1/10 the crimes that native-born Americans do, the crimes they commit are 1/2 less likely to be crimes that need incarceration. And I’m sure murder requires incarceration.

            Before you publish any more lies, you’d better read this long-term study on immigrants that shows your rhetoric is total BS!!!

            Kristin F. Butcher Anne Morrison Piehl,


          21. David September 8, 2015

            For the murder rate, I used the numbers you stated and those from the GAO. Don’t like them? Sorry… maybe you can have some of them move into your neighborhood!

          22. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            I have no problem with that given that study after study shows that the safest cities in America are those with the highest percentage of immigrants, and that includes illegals!!

            You right-wingers have absolutely no common sense. The majority of immigrants, and that includes illegals, are here to better their lives or help their families back home better their lives. And despite what you low IQ RWNJs think, THEY ARE NOT STUPID!!! They know if they get involved with the law IN ANY Way, THAT NOT ONLY WILL THEIR DREAM, BUT OFTEN THE DREAMS OF THEIR FAMILIES WILL VANISH!!

            So illegal immirgants ARE far more law abiding; than the average American citizen!! So I’d be more than happy to live in their neighborhoods. IT’S YOUR ILK THAT’S STUPID!!!

          23. paulyz September 9, 2015

            You are really full of crap, must be on this site to sway people with phony, leftist stats. More anti-American hatred from you. Admit it dummy, you are an ILLEGAL Trespasser.

          24. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Once again, you’ve fixated on one thing and seem unable to grasp that the world is a multi-faceted place where many things don’t go the way you like to imagine them.

          25. David September 10, 2015

            Really? You mean many things won’t go the way I would like to imagine them to go? Oh no!!!! Maybe I should then become a Demorat so that I can protest this!

          26. paulyz September 9, 2015

            More of your anti-American phony stats to try and excuse Liberal Amnesty for control, even though HUGE majorities Oppose this. We are not being represented & you allow & encourage it for your own selfish interests. You do live in the U.S. don’t you? Seems like you use every opportunity to criticize it but not the Illegals.

          27. Independent1 September 9, 2015

            What a bunch of BS!! And in reply to one of my other posts you claim my statistics are BS!! Well, why don’t you accuse
            Kristen Butcher and Anne Piehl of that who’s spent a couple decades studying immigrants. and their criminal activity.

            Here’s a link to her working papers – there’s a section in them that substantiates everything I’ve posted.

            Kristin F. Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl


          28. Independent1 September 9, 2015

            And I have no vested interests in trying to correct the misconceptions about illegals other than I appreciate having many varieties of produce that I can afford at the super market, many of which are only available these days because there are illegals willing to harvest them for peanuts.

            And I llike to travel and realize that without many illegal chamber maids. traveling for me could become unaffordable. So given that it’s just one more fake scandal that the GOP has created about illegals being such a menace and costing us more than they help the country, which is just one more GOP lie; I’ll fight for their existence as their by far more help to me than danger.

            And see this from NPR:

            Does Crime Drop When Immigrants Move In? (YES)


          29. paulyz September 20, 2015

            No vested interests you say? Your entire post is ALL about selfish interests. You want to travel & eat a tiny bit cheaper, while the costs for average American to just make living increases greatly, as does health care, crime, education, etc. Proof once again of the elitist, self-centered, Liberal jerk.

          30. Independent1 September 21, 2015

            The CBO did an extensive study of what immigrants, including illegals, were costing America’s states; and although the CBO concluded that the taxes immigrants paid to the states didn’t fully cover all that a state’s costs were for the programs immigrants used; it concluded that what states were spending on immigrants was very little on top of what they were already spending to run those programs for the legal American citizens in their states anyways.

            So given the billions in federal income taxes that illegals pay (the CBO estimates that 55-70% of illegals pay income taxes); and the 12 plus billion they pay into Social Security which is helping keep it afloat, and the billions they pay into Medicare (both programs they can’t use); and the 8 plus million American citizens that they’re basically keeping working by what they spend in the economy and the many small businesses they run which hires native-born Americans; and the fact that as a group they have a far lower crime rate than native-born Americans; and then you factor in all the monies that they’re saving every American consumer who has to eat; and every American who wants to travel and every company and individual Amerian who is doing any major building;

            And then you top all of that off with the fact that without immigrants, including the illegals, coming into America over the past 2-3 decades, instead of the American population increasing, the American population would have been decreasing like every other industrialized country on the planet – and with a decreasing population profit levels of virtually every business in the nation would have been decreasing and like virtually every other industrialized country, and that includes China, America would most likely would be in a double-dip recession today- instead of having had 66 straight months of jobs growth.

            You cannot put a large enough figure on the enormous benefit that immigrants, including illegals have been to America over especially the past 30 plus years!!!!

          31. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Based on you, one could conclude that Christians have a very low IQ and very high gullibility, not to mention a huge dose of willful ignorance.

          32. David September 10, 2015

            Thank you for your careful, well researched and thoughtful opinion. Did you come up with when you were inside that rectal lining?

          33. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Mostly projection on your part.

          34. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Studies made by people like you, closely examining the linings of their own rectums?

          35. David September 10, 2015

            As a matter of fact, they did do a study of my rectal lining! on me! They found your head shoved up there!

          36. Otto Greif September 8, 2015

            Studies show the average African American IQ is 85.

          37. paulyz September 9, 2015

            I actually have an old school book discussing that & the Bell Curve. It was used in all the schools until it wasn’t “politically correct”, then they removed it from the schools. Talk about indoctrination. Soon after they started multi-culturism & affirmative action/quotas.

          38. Otto Greif September 9, 2015

            IQ research continues, it just doesn’t get talked about because of inconvenient truths.

          39. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Do they? I’m sure you’re glad to hear it.

          40. idamag September 7, 2015

            If he is a Christian, I wouldn’t want to be one. I can’t hate that deep.

      2. Independent1 September 7, 2015

        You just never tire of making wild, unsupportable accusations – do you???

      3. pisces63 September 7, 2015

        Reagan gave over 2 million illegals amnesty and over 100k immunity from deportation. What immigration law did HE inforce?

        1. bobnstuff September 7, 2015

          3.2 million illegals. The other big EO put the 110,000 Japanese into internment camps.

        2. itsfun September 7, 2015

          It is 2015, I am concerned what the man of no character currently in the White House who is breaking the oath he took.

          1. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

            That man is more of a man of character then you will ever be. You are just low bred. He is so much better then you. I think you know that and it just kills you that you will never measure up to him. You will always be found wanting.

          2. David September 7, 2015

            I will agree…Obomo is quite a character!

          3. idamag September 7, 2015

            Actually, I listened to Reagan’s speech when he gave amnesty.

          4. itsfun September 7, 2015

            And just what would someone like you that stoops to name calling know about character?

          5. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

            Much, much more then you ever will teatroll. Now, be a good little brown shirt wannabe and goose step on out of here.

            I’m done trying to be civil to the likes of you. You don’t deserve civility.

          6. itsfun September 7, 2015

            I’ll hang around for as long as I want. I have never been afraid of a bully and won’t start with you.

          7. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

            You can hang where you want. We all know you’re just some ignorant, white trash, teatard troll.

            Just stay out of the way. There is work to be done and we’re moving forward without you. At best you’re an annoying speed bump.

          8. itsfun September 7, 2015

            I’ll stay where I want to, couldn’t care less about what a intolerant individual like you says.

          9. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

            Yeah, right. Stay out of the way.

            Like I said, you’re at best, a speed bump. Nothing more.

          10. JPHALL September 7, 2015


          11. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Lying is worse than name-calling, especially when the “names” are accurate. Face it, you just have a problem with the truth.

          12. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Sort of like you, huh?
            Try facing reality instead of projecting your faults on others.

        3. paulyz September 7, 2015

          Please become informed before you open your ignorant mouth. The Amnesty you are talking about was NOT an EO, it was a bipartisan legislation called the Simpson-Mazolli Act. All we got was the Amnesty, all the enforcement measures & border security were unlawfully ignored. This was a ONE-TIME Amnesty in 1986, so according to our LAWS, anybody that snuck into the U.S. after 1986, must be deported.

      4. Jan123456 September 7, 2015

        Have you ever heard the term ‘prosecutorial discretion”?

        You may want to look it up. Its use is quite common.

        1. itsfun September 7, 2015

          He is breaking his oath when he refuses to enforce our laws period. Hi is sworn to obey our laws and enforce them, not to pick and choose. He is not a prosecuting attorney. If he disagrees with a law, then go to Congress to get it legally changed. If Congress doesn’t want to change it, then he has sworn to enforce it.

          1. Jan123456 September 7, 2015

            The government does not have the resources to completely enforce all laws. We can’t put a cop in front of everyone’s house so that we catch every possible burglar. We don’t even put resources behind finding every burglar there is. If you ever had a break in, chances are the cops would have told you to inventory what you lost and they’ll keep an eye out.

            Prosecutors, even when they try people, will give immunity to the low level street dealer in hopes of getting to his/her supplier. Is that breaking the oath too?

            Obama just told federal enforcement to focus resources on immigrants who commit violent crimes and not on the migrant farm worker with a couple kids who were born here. He is enforcing the law, just on the folks most likely to cause us harm.

          2. itsfun September 7, 2015

            He is picking and choosing which laws to enforce. the oath he took said he would enforce all the laws, not just the parts he likes or wants to follow. He did a wonderful job for the lady in San Francisco that was shot by a illegal that had been given sanctuary.

          3. Jan123456 September 7, 2015

            No. He is picking and choosing who to focus resources on. That’s different.

            What law is he NOT enforcing?

          4. paulyz September 9, 2015

            Ahh Jan, you must know about the thousands of “criminal” Illegals Obama released, many murdering, raping, & assaulting American Citizens. It’s been ALL over the news. And I see you also naievely bought the story that Obama doesn’t have enough resourses to enforce those Laws. What the hell is he doing with all the Trillions in debt & spending then, especially when he cut border agents & moved them way inland from the border. Geeez!

          5. Jan123456 September 9, 2015

            Obama cut border patrol? The only place I have seen that (and the hyperbole you cite about “thousands of criminal illegals” ) is from far right wing sites who have a goal of inciting outrage in the base.



            There is NEVER enough resources on whatever level to stop all crime. If that wasn’t true, we wouldn’t have crime.

      5. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

        Just can’t stop yourself, can you? Guess your forgot about how practically every official in the Bush Administration from the president on down not only violated his/her oath of office, but committed actual crimes like war-mongering and torture. Whatever Obama or anyone in his administrations has done wrong (and most of your claims are simply lies), they look like saints compared to the people you support. Crawl back under your rock.

    3. leadvillexp September 7, 2015

      The oath she swore refers to God. It doesn’t say what God. It doesn’t mention any God by name. People just assume it is a Christian God. The God in the oath cannot be linked to Leviticus except by a believer in that faith. I don’t expect people who believe to change but I do expect them to leave the rest of us alone and if they cannot fulfill their government position because of their faith they should resign.

  2. Dominick Vila September 7, 2015

    Our problem is not an alleged erosion of religious freedom, but the determination of religious fanatics to impose their will on the rest of the populace, regardless of what our preferences may be or what the Supreme Court interprets as being consistent with our Constitution.
    The fact that zealots hide behind a veneer of victim hood to support their absurd beliefs and the advancement of their agenda, is an old tactic that most rational people can detect immediately and reject as evidence of duplicity.

    1. Independent1 September 7, 2015

      On top of your post, this incident clearly highlights the outright hypocrisy of today’s conservatives’ ‘supposed faith’ and their misguided ‘family values’. Misguided values which they have clearly picked and chosen from within God’s commandments because ‘they feel’ those are commandments that they can ‘live with’ and then will misguidedly fight for almost to the death; and at times even to the death of others. (Conservatives have actually killed abortion clinic people (committed murder – clearly an outright sin) in their misguided attempts to ‘ban abortions’; something which does not prevent abortions and may well actually result in more woman choosing to have one.)

      And what Huckabee (who claims to be a Christian) clearly chose to overlook (as so many self-righteous conservatives of today will chose to do) is the fact that this woman was in God’s eyes, a far worse sinner than any gay couple may be (Jesus never once condemned gay relationships although he had many opportunities to do so). So this woman, who had married 4 times when Jesus said one marriage in a lifetime was all God would condone; and anything beyond that was clearly someone living in the sin of adultery – was being totally hypocritical when she chose to judge others as being sinful when she herself is clearly everyday living in sin.

    2. Independent1 September 7, 2015

      And what may be even more telling about today’s conservatives being ‘fake Christians’ is that they will fully support (even to the point of being fanatical about)clear cut sinners like Trump and Gingrich who have been married and divorced several times, while they go around trumpeting their fake ‘family values’.

      1. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

        I still want to know how serial adulterer Newt managed to marry his most recent adulteress while his previous adulterous wife was still alive and get himself admitted to the Catholic Church. Not to their credit at all.

  3. Böcker September 7, 2015

    There is no such thing as religious liberty, just conservatives having a hissy fits because they can’t have it their way. They can’t pick and choose what laws they like. We are not a Christian Nation no matter how much they push the idea, we have religious freedom two difference things.

    1. itsfun September 7, 2015

      Obama picks and chooses which laws he likes and doesn’t enforce the laws he doesn’t like. If he enforced immigration laws, we may not have the problems we now have. We are a Christian Nation.

      1. Grannysmovin September 7, 2015

        Sorry – no we are not. ·
        1. “The declaration that “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” appears in article 11 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary (commonly known as the Treaty of Tripoli), which was approved by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams in 1797.” 2. “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.” Thomas Jefferson 3. “The civil government … functions with complete
        success … by the total separation of the Church from the State.” James Madison ·
        4. “Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the (Republican) party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.” Republican Barry Goldwater 5. ·
        establish no religion in this country. We command no worship. We mandate no
        belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are and must remain separate.” –
        Ronald Reagan

      2. Böcker September 7, 2015

        We are not a Christian nation, where you got that idiot idea I don’t know, must of been Fox or am hate radio, the clueless leading the clueless. Tell me what laws the President isn’t enforcing, because as President he has deported more people then any other President. So go on tell me what laws he isn’t enforcing, bet you can’t and that you are just repeating lying talking points you heard.

        1. itsfun September 7, 2015

          Obama has not enforced the immigration laws. he is aiding illegals not deporting them. his administration changes the rules for counting deportations. He considers anyone not allowed into the US as being deported.

          1. Böcker September 7, 2015

            President Obama has deported more people then any other President, so try again.

          2. paulyz September 7, 2015

            Completely wrong. The Illegals Obama marked for deportation, most were never deported. BO also released tens of thousands of criminal Illegals into our streets, to assault, rape, & murder again. BO ordered the border patrol away from the border & told them not to arrest Illegals in many cases.

      3. pisces63 September 7, 2015

        I am REALLY fed up with this lie. Referencing EO”s of course. Yet, you hypocrites rant at what the black president does, yet ignore the over 1,000 EO’s issued by four white presidents. Reagan, Carter, G. W. Bush and Clinton. Over 1,000 and Obama?? 189. Really???

        1. Polana September 7, 2015

          It’s fun is a real Christian. Bigot, hater and I bet an animal abuser.By the way, what Obama has to do with it?? Far as I know he does go to church and NEVER told anybody to go to his church or believe what he believes, raise his children they way he see it fit. Never bashes anybody for anything. It seems that Itsfun never run out of saliva to blame Obama for everything . For him Bush the Stupid is and was god. His god is/was so good that he murdered over 5K of his own people and over 100K of innocent.
          “To be deceived or uninformed in the soul about true beings means that, “the lie itself has taken possession of the highest part of himself and steeped it into “Ignorance of the Soul”.
          Plato (georgias 382a-b).
          Don’t waste your time on responding to anything – his mind is closed for good. Hate took possession of his soul, and if he believes in Bible (I don’t) and is more than 5 thousand years backwards. Mind is like a parachute,it only works when open.
          Going to church and study a Bible doesn’t make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes u a car.
          “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” ML King.
          Describes it’sfun to a T.
          Besides this article has nothing to do w/Obama. He is troll.

        2. itsfun September 7, 2015

          He took a oath to enforce our laws. Apparently his taking a oath and vowing to enforce our laws means nothing to him. I don’t care if he is green,purple, black, white, or whatever, he broke a vow he made.. I guess his word means nothing.

          1. Irishgrammy September 7, 2015

            NOW THAT is pure BS! I have read your many posts with your now well documented bent of typical intolerance and ass-backwards judgment you spew with utterly no facts to put forward! Just throwing the stink bombs at the President based on your ideological beliefs system. Don’t attempt to sell it as “truth”, you are on the wrong site for that to pass muster.

          2. itsfun September 7, 2015

            Are you saying he didn’t take a oath to enforce our laws. He is the one that told the border control officers not to enforce all of our immigration laws. He is the one that made changes to the ACA tax law without going through Congress. What is not true about that?

          3. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            Means more than it meant to your man Bush, and all your lies won’t change that.

        3. idamag September 7, 2015

          Hey, they will accept convicted war criminals over a Black Main in the White House.

      4. greenlantern1 September 7, 2015

        Nixon’s first attorney-general, John Mitchell, wound up behind bars because he ACTUALLY broke the law!
        Anything RESEMBLING a charge?

        1. itsfun September 7, 2015

          Obama took an oath. I guess his word means nothing to him. there are no charges and our gutless congress will never do anything except fall in line for him.

          1. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

            Get back to us when you can actually spell out the laws he broke and how he broke them. Also, show us how he went outside the Constitutional constructs that Presidents before him put in place. Show us where what he did is any different from what they did.

            I’m assuming you can do that since you insist on shooting your mouth off about all of this.

          2. idamag September 7, 2015

            itsfun is a nut job who comes on here to spew his hatred of the Black Man in the White House, no matter what the topic is. He is a person who is not well read, probably from Podunk Mississippi.

          3. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

            More like “Where the Hell Am I Mississippi.”

      5. Phil Temmer September 7, 2015

        There are highly educated, productive, long-term “illegal aliens” who have lived the US most of their lives and know no other culture, who should be allowed to become legal residents and, down the road, citizens. These are the “illegal aliens” Obama chooses not to deport, and whom he is supporting in his “Dream Act” which Republicans refuse to pass into law.
        On the other hand, Obama has deported more criminals who are here illegally than any other president in history.
        If that’s what you are referring to, I have no problem with that.

        We are a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc., and atheist nation. But above all, a nation which has thrived because it is based on the Constitution and other civil law, which
        may occasionally conflict with your ancient book of myths.

        President George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796:
        “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

        1. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

          Phil, why do we keep having to explain this to these people? Are we not talking slowly enough? Are the words we use too big for them to understand? Or is it that they chose to ignore the truth and facts in favor of their belief in the magic sky fairy who’s laws they also generally choose to ignore unless they can use them to oppress others and force their views on them.. I’m going for the last one. It fits their MO.

        2. paulyz September 9, 2015

          We “already” had a one-time Amnesty in 1986. This is a Law. ILLEGALS that came here against this Law, then had children, they are not “dreamers”, they are the responsibility of their Illegal parents, not the American Citizens. Do you prefer to ignore Laws? Anyone here ILLEGALLY AFTER 1986 is ILLEGAL, & by Law, needs to be deported.

          1. Phil Temmer September 9, 2015

            Steve Jobs said that the reason than most of the R & D and construction of Apple products were done in Asia rather than here was that the USA was here we were sadly deficient in the talent he needed to do the work.

            But many of those very engineers and programmers who are working overseas were trained in the USA which has some of the finest technical colleges in the world. But upon graduation, the brilliant young minds who might have cherished living and working in the USA had to go back to their native countries because here they would have been considered -and likely deported – as illegal aliens.

            Stupid, isn’t it ? …
            aren’t you ?

          2. paulyz September 20, 2015

            We do have visa’s & allow STEM workers here you know. Most of the ILLEGAL Trespassers are unskilled for those jobs, while Millions of Americans should be trained. You certainly are stupid, & your brain is clouded with Leftist ideology. A Liberal mind is a terrible waste.

      6. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

        Yeah, we have lots of fine “Christians” like you: hate-filled, dishonest, and intolerant.

    2. idamag September 7, 2015

      Now, I can understand why the Romans threw them to the lions.

      1. paulyz September 9, 2015

        Liberalism stopped evolution. Before Liberalism, the inferior losers died off, now they came back to bring society on a downward spiral. LMAO.

    3. paulyz September 8, 2015

      Actually our Founders were discussing (the government), not being a Christian (government), not the Nation’s people. The Founders understood that the nation needed to be governed by believers in God & the Bible. George Washington, the Father of our Country, respected & loved by mostly all, set many precedents. He stated, “It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God & the Bible.” He was talking about the Christian Bible, not the Quran or any other.

      1. Böcker September 8, 2015

        Boy did you get the wrong end of the stick, we have religious freedom, we don’t have religious liberty, two entirely different things. We are not a Christian nation no matter how much conservative push the idea.

        1. paulyz September 9, 2015

          Your comment is just mumbo-jumbo. I correctly stated the (government) not being a Christian government or any other religion. That DOES mean religious Liberty, which is freedom of oppressinderstandon “from” religion. How can you make an intelligent comment when you can’t even understand simple concepts?

          1. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

            You’re the one consistently writing mumbo-jumbo and broadcasting your ignorance.

  4. David September 7, 2015

    Typical libtard rant. “Freedom of speech”,,,unless it is against our position.

    1. Grannysmovin September 7, 2015

      The Ten Commandments are God’s Law and not one of those 10 reference Homosexuality or same sex marriage.

      The Bible references it, however the Bible is a compilation of 66 books and letters written by more than 40 authors during a period of approximately 1,500 years. Its original text was communicated in just three languages. The Bible’s authors were very human and may have been inspired by what they understood to be God’s words, thoughts, actions. These 40 individuals came from various walks of life. Moses was probably the most educated, while the others were shepherds who became the King of Israel (David), farmers, fisherman and warriors. These earliest accounts were handed on from generation to generation in songs, narratives, and poetry. In those early societies there was no writing as yet and people passed on these oral accounts and with that the stories are exaggerated, changed, misrepresented. Remember when you were kids and you played telephone a game which a sentence or phrase becomes distorted by being passed along to the next person in a whisper. Can you imagine the distortion over 1500 years. The Bible is in small part reality and very large part myth and fables.

      1. David September 7, 2015

        “Myth and fables”? That “myth” has changed the world. Atheism hasn’t.

        1. johninPCFL September 7, 2015

          And its follow-on, the Quran. Between the two they influence about half the world’s population.

        2. Grannysmovin September 7, 2015

          “Religions are all alike — founded upon fables and mythologies” Thomas Jefferson
          “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man” Thomas Jefferson

          “The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible” Thomas Jefferson

          “The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements dogma.” — Abraham Lincoln.

          “What have been the fruits of Christianity ? Superstition, bigotry and persecution.” — James Madison

          1. pisces63 September 7, 2015

            Wow. You are one fount of knowledge. Love and learn a lot from you and others.

        3. pisces63 September 7, 2015

          Really? You ever hear of Rome? Egypt? Greece? No Christian God among them but boy did they change the world in their days and time. China. Japan. Too many to write here. The laws we still follow. Freedoms we still follow. What we do not follow is their racial AND Sexual blindness. These are European Christian introductions of intolerance. The first is Paul distancing Christians from their Judea roots. Next, the lie that Jews killed christ. Another Mary magdalena was a whore. They made her the rich wife who committed adultery and who Christ said, go and sin no more. Two different women and the insult is to deny her place of importance as a woman, ranked up there with the disciples. Can’t have that. Then we have the unholy crusades. We still feel that obscenity today in the middle east. Destruction of Palmyra history , land of Queen Zenobia. Instead of a Saladin we have the idiots of ISIL. Then we have the inquisition with it murder of Jews and early protestants. The kidnapping of Jewish children and force conversion to Catholicism. Colonialism. Slavery, European style. Considered by all the most heinous. You gave my people your religion but there wasn’t a damned thing Christian about it. Rape. Beatings. Enslavement of their own children. Lynchings. Burnings. Bombing of a church with four little girls, planned by a white Christian minister kkk member. Preaching hatred from white pulpits.see the apology to us by the Southern Baptists which is bull considering their attack on a black president and their figurehead black leader.I am a Christian but when I see commercials for their dating site, I laugh and think degenerates united.

          1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

            Now we have the American Taliban.

          2. David September 7, 2015

            I am sorry you feel that way. I won’t address each of your points. You set out about twenty of them. I will say this about Rome, Greece and Egypt. We aren’t worshiping Jupiter, Zues, or Osiris today, are we? I don’t know who your people are, but my God commands us to love Him with all our heart; all our soul; all our mind; and, all our strength. And, love our neighbor as ourself.
            Have a blessed day.

        4. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

          When does history start for you? How far do your beliefs allow you to go back?

        5. greenlantern1 September 7, 2015

          The Ten Commandments are in the Book of Leviticus!
          It is in KING JAMES!
          It is in the VULGATE!
          It is NOT in the Book of Mormon!
          The BOOK OF REVELATIONS has dire warnings against altering HIS WORD!
          It is in KING JAMES!
          It is in the VULGATE!
          It is NOT in the Book of Mormon!
          Is God as good as HIS WORD or not?

          1. David September 7, 2015

            First, it is “Revelation” not “Revelations”. I am not Mormon so I don’t know what is in The Pearl of Great Price.

          2. greenlantern1 September 8, 2015

            I am not Mormon either.
            Your standard bearer, Mitt Romney, is!
            Valid point, on your part, about my using of the plural sense.
            However; I am wondering why you are hot outraged over the deletion of the entire book?

          3. David September 8, 2015

            I have absolutely no feelings of any type regarding anything about the Mormons.

        6. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

          Yes, we must credit Christianity for its major contribution to the fact that the world is not even more overpopulated than it is. They have certainly done more than their share to cull the masses.

          1. David September 7, 2015

            There have been horrible acts committed in the name of Christianity. While bad, they don’t quite measure up to what non-Christians have done just in the 20th century. Stalin; Hitler; Pol Pot; Mao. Nonetheless, what was done was wrong and can’t be defended. What can be said is that was not true Christianity.

        7. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

          Only if you narrowmindedly consider only western religions.
          Asian religions have a richer history that stretches back over double the number of years, and did more to effect the course of mankind than the fables of a mangy tribe on the run in the Middle East 2000 years ago.

          In the context of all of human history, Christianity is a minor footnote.

          1. David September 7, 2015

            A minor footnote? How else do think the universe was created? Please say “Big Bang”. Big Bang? Hmmm…And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light! We at least can agree on that!

          2. Phil Temmer September 7, 2015

            Hey Dave, I’ve got a few questions.
            Think (what a concept!) before you answer…

            To whom was your god supposedly speaking ?- and in what language ?
            He was five days away from creating Adam so, evidently, there was nobody around to hear him.
            So was he talking to himself ?
            That’s a sign of insanity. Not good. Was your god insane? (How about that whole Noah’s Ark episode? – seems maybe he was).
            But answer, please: Who was around to hear him say and take down those poetic words?

            Nobody !!!
            Stupid, isn’t it?

            You really believe this rubbish?

            How about Santa Claus?
            Do you believe in Santa Claus and his eight flying reindeer?

            Sorry, Dave. I, for one, don’t agree with you and your goofy god story.

            Oh yeah..

          3. David September 7, 2015

            This is obviously a question along lines of “can god create a rock too heavy for him to lift?”. I don’t know if God was talking to anyone. He may have said that in order to create the universe. Was he speaking so that the Son and the Holy Spirit could hear him? What language? I don’t have the answers to these questions. I also don’t find them to be particularly compelling to find answers to. Since you equate the belief in God with that of Santa Claus, Superman, and Cinderella, perhaps you can explain how we got here.

          4. Phil Temmer September 8, 2015

            I can’t.
            Nor can you.
            But I’m not losing sleep over it.
            You were brainwashed to believe that there is an invisible magic spirit who built the universe and created life in six days.
            That’s beyond ridiculous.
            Just accept that you are here now and try to leave the world a better place than when you arrived.
            Hint: Your religion is not helping.

          5. David September 8, 2015

            Oh, but I can explain how we got here. It is all set out in a book. The book is the Holy Bible (actually a collection of 66 books). Read Genesis.
            Now, in regard to your statement to “Just accept the fact that you are here now and try to leave the world a better place than when you arrived.” is interesting. First, define what you mean by “better place”. Second, you believe that our life on this planet is it? There is no afterlife?

      2. pisces63 September 7, 2015

        Considering John wrote revelations while on a deserted island, I wonder what he was under the influence of.

    2. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

      I’ll repeat it again and again. We are NOT a Christian nation.
      Religion is a great vehicle for controlling the masses. It’s all a leap of faith and each makes up their own rules, changes them as they see fit and interprets their teachings anyway they want.

      You David are one of those who practice blind faith to the detriment of yourself and society. You can’t see beyond it.
      Pretty soon everyone who thinks as you do will
      find something that offends them enough to make it their cause then where will we be.
      Fortunately we’ve already fought racial intolerance Now those who couldn’t get around the laws of the land regarding the rights of other human beings are coming back and using “religion” as a vehicle to try it again from this new angle.
      Only it’s not a new angle, it’s the same one used by terrorist groups which makes you a member of the American Taliban.
      Those of us who take the Constitution seriously and protecting the rights of all citizens will not permit this to happen again. We will continue to fight it and you won’t win. I promise.

      1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

        PS I received this cartoon from an American Lutheran pastor who hates how religion has been hijacked and misused by those with an agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with God.
        Ironic, huh?

      2. David September 7, 2015

        Carolyn– still invoking Karl Marx? Man’s laws change — our laws have changed. God’s laws don’t.
        What YOU will or won’t “permit” is decided for you by those politicians that are currently in favor. I will quote you from Jefferson, “From time to time the tree of Liberty needs to be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.”
        Blind faith? My faith, I assure you, is not blind!
        American Taliban? Really? I happen to be a Vietnam veteran; Christian, Conservative; and, gun owner. I guess I would fall in to your definition of “American Taliban”. I will pray for you. Have a blessed day.

        1. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

          You obviously know nothing about Jefferson, or you might hesitate to use him to support your ignorance: he had nothing but contempt for “Christians” like you.

          1. David September 7, 2015

            Actually you can only guess at what Thomas Jefferson would find contemptible. I know he was a deist. I also know he did not want various religious beliefs quarreling with each other. Jefferson believed in a Supreme Being.

          2. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

            A Supreme Being is what every person of faith believes in. Are you saying you consider them on equal standing with your God?

          3. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

            He had quite a few unpleasant things to say about “Christianity,” and – since you guys are currently on the offensive, i.e., opposition to your theocracy is now “persecution,” a “war on Christianity,” and attacks on “religious freedom” – it seems likely he’d put most of the blame on your side, but it’s true I can’t channel his spirit, since he has none.
            It is also questionable how much he actually believed in a supreme being, but this is, of course, a fruitless discussion, or argument.

        2. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

          It’s always amusing when people like you start screaming that same old tired, Marx, Commie BS meme. You christian Taliban brown shirt wannabes just can’t help yourselves. Troll elsewhere. You aren’t smart enough to be in this company.

          1. David September 7, 2015

            Gee Dennis, I am smart enough to have read Marx and know what he said about religion and it is very close to what Carolyn said. Are you clever enough to know what he said that is almost the same thing she said? Surprise me! Show me that you have read something in your life not provided to you by the people the government put in charge of your “education”.

          2. Dennis Price September 7, 2015

            What I know is this and it’s quite simple so it’s right in your wheelhouse. I know that the last thing America and Americans need is christian taliban people like you dictating what our government does. You don’t have the right and certainly not the brains.

            Now you are free to defend that woman but stop whining because she’s in jail. It’s where she belongs. It’s called the law, not the bible.

          3. David September 7, 2015

            Dennis– Let me help with your education today. Karl Marx and Frederich Engels wrote a book called The Communist Manifesto. In that book,

          4. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

            Marx isn’t the person who said it. For centuries religion has been used as a tool of control. It’s fact. It doesn’t make me a communist because I acknowledge a fact
            I happen to think what people believe is personal. As long as they are free to worship their God, their rights have not been violated. It’s when they want to impose their personal beliefs on others that a violation occurs.

          5. David September 7, 2015

            Well, actually he did. 1846. He wrote “Religion is the opium of the people.” The imposition is the other way around.

          6. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

            What he actually said:

            “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”

            I’m not disagreeing that he said that. I meant to say he wasn’t the ONLY person to have acknowledged the fact that religion was a tool used to control the masses.

          7. David September 7, 2015

            Karl Marx was a worthless POS. So, you now agree that he said it. Who else said it? Stalin? Hitler? Pol Pot? Or some Demorat?

          8. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

            I’ll just give you a few quotes regarding religion. I thought I’d start with Jefferson since you quoted him first.

            I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
            -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

            The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
            -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

            Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
            -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

            And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
            -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

            But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
            -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

            “It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams.”
            Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825.

            “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”
            Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.

            “The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and in-grafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.”
            Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

          9. David September 7, 2015

            Answer to my question?

          10. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

            You want more examples?

            Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

            Seneca (4 BC – 65 AD)

          11. paulyz September 8, 2015

            I see you like to quote Thomas Jefferson, but you left out this quote by him.
            “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the People under the pretense of caring for them.”
            What a perfect warning about Liberalism.

          12. idamag September 7, 2015

            That is obvious. He is like a quarrelsome child.

        3. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

          Your faith is your faith alone. My faith is mine alone. Neither your God’s laws or anyone else’s trump the Constitution or the laws of the land in the United States. We are not a theocracy.
          Being a veteran is honorable. Thank you for your service to our country. If you as a Christian think that your religious beliefs should be allowed to circumvent the Constitution and the laws of the country then you think the same way as ISIL and the Taliban. Hence my American Taliban reference. You quote Jefferson in the same way the Christians in name only, quotes the bible, you pick and choose. Jefferson would have felt nothing but disdain for Kim Davis and her supporters. I can give you 10 more quotes that bear that fact out.
          Does being a gun owner mean something that is relevant to this conversation? Many people are gun owners. It’s not a religious issue unless you are inferring it will come to that. That would be a shame.
          If praying brings you solace then by all means do so. You also have a blessed day

          1. David September 7, 2015

            Carolyn– My God’s laws are above this country’s laws. We are

          2. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

            Dickhead. God’s Laws being above a country’s laws is the exact definition of a Theocracy.

          3. David September 7, 2015

            Thank you for the well thought out reply. Your use of profanity adds great weight to your argument. Guess what? God’s law is always above man’s laws. Man’s laws evolve. God’s doesn’t.

        4. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

          Perhaps the only thing your faith is, is blind.
          Otherwise you couldn’t pee all over it by typing on this forum and still have any self-respect.

        5. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

          Also from Jefferson:
          “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man” Thomas Jefferson

    3. pisces63 September 7, 2015

      PLUS the books were chosen at the 2nd Vatican covention by men. In fact my KJV is different from a Catholic bible which has books mine doesn’t.

      1. tomtype September 7, 2015

        Strange because those books were translated by the King James translatoers. And were included in the Bible, until the London Bible Society decided to leave them out of their Bibles they were sending to missionaries. In order to make the product lighter and shorter, thus cheaper to produce. That was at the end of the 19th century. Those books are included in all other translations by Protestants. You should learn your Christian History.

    4. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

      Typical ignorant and dishonest rant. but that’s no surprise, coming from you.
      Another of your loving names for us, I see, along with your judgment. You clearly haven’t the brains or discernment to co0mment, being as bad as or worse than this government worker trying to force her religion on others.
      You have the right to spew your ignorance and bigotry here, which I do not dispute, but why don’t you go and have a blessed day somewhere else?

      1. David September 7, 2015

        I know you find what I say is “ignorant”. But, what do find is “dishonest”? I think that I have sufficient brain power to answer your insults. Furthermore, I can discern them as the rantings of a fool. Have a blessed day.

        1. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

          Yes, dishonest.
          I believe “Jesus” had something to say about those who call others “fool,” but then, you have special dispensation.

          1. David September 7, 2015

            So, what did I say that was dishonest? What would you care about anything Jesus said?

          2. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

            More to the point, why would you advertise yourself as a Christian, yet care less than I what “Jesus” said?

          3. David September 7, 2015

            I don’t care less than you about what Jesus said. My comment was along the lines of “what would you care?” what He said?

          4. Sand_Cat September 8, 2015

            Let’s talk about dishonesty and hypocrisy for a moment.
            This person you choose to support had no “deeply held religious convictions” that prohibited her from getting three divorces and marrying four times, nor any that prevented her from retaining her employment – and collecting salary and benefits – from Caesar – as in “render unto Caesar…” while refusing to do her job. I suspect her “deeply held convictions” involve little or nothing at all that inconveniences HER, but I don’t know her or her life circumstances.
            To YOU, on the other hand – this could apply to her as well – exactly how well do you comply with the restrictions and requirements to be found in great abundance in the books of Leviticus, Exodus, etc.? How well would you expect to stand up to judgment based on those requirements? Do you observe the dietary laws, kill those who work on the sabbath (Saturday, not Sunday) and refrain from doing so yourself, avoid any contact with women having their menstrual periods or who have delivered a male child within the last 30 days, or 66 for a female, and on and on and on? If not, just where do you and your fellow hypocrites get off judging those who ignore that one passage in Leviticus, or anyone else who “falls short of the glory of the lord”? If you don’t believe in gay marriage, by all means, don’t have one, reject and hate all who do in your church and private life, if that turns you on. You are free to despise the advice of the man you call god to love your neighbor as yourself or remove the log from your own eye before searching for the spec in your neighbor’s, or to refrain from judgment and let your god take care of those who disobey him. He’s supposed to be a pretty powerful guy himself; why does he need you to enforce his absurd and genocidal demands?
            The United States – for which you claimed to have “served” in the military, if I recall properly – is a secular, Constitutional republic, not a theocracy or “Christian nation” as some (dishonestly) claim. You are not compelled to accept gay people at all – or gay married couples – into your church or your home, nor even treat them with courtesy, when acting as a private citizen or church member. Neither your religious freedom nor Ms Davis’s permit you to attempt to force your religious beliefs on anyone through the law or – especially – as a government official, and this prohibition is NOT some kind of oppression as many in your camp attempt to claim. You do not have the right to run other adults’ lives, however holy you do or don’t think yourself (you likely wouldn’t be here judging the rest of us if you felt secure in your own beliefs, but that’s another issue).
            So have a blessed day: go to BarbWire or one of the other hate-filled and delusional “Christian” and other right-wing websites; I’m sure you’d find the company far more congenial there. No doubt there are those there happy to debate the number of angels who can dance on the head of the pin and other equally ridiculous notions for which you have ZERO evidence one way or another. They’ll even call you names – or some of them will – for disagreeing with them. You’ll be happier than them than with us “scum” and “fools” (your terms, plus all the others you’ve used or implied).

          5. David September 8, 2015

            I would much rather be on this site. Why preach to the choir? I can do a lot more trying to enlighten the religiously “challenged” people here. Your “interpretation” of Leviticus and Exodus lacks the fundamental determination of ‘context’. Please Google the proper steps to take in analyzing the verses of the Bible
            I don’t “hate” gays. I hate the sin they are committing. I definitely don’t hate them because they sin differently than I do.
            My judgment is based on God’s law. As for me and my house, I choose to follow God.

          6. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            Fact is your judgement is not based on God’s law!! Because if you really read God’s law, you would have long sense realized that none, LET ME REPEAT THAT – NONE, of the commandments recorded in the OLD TESTAMENT still apply today!!

            Why is it that you clueless FAKE CHRISTIANS insist on constantly overlooking what God had recorded by the author of the book of Hebrews??? WHY IS THAT???





          7. David September 8, 2015

            Interesting rant. Read Mathew 5:17-20. What Jesus changed was the interpretation and intent surrounding the Law of the Old Testament. Nice try.

          8. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            Sorry, Jesus did not mean that the details by which we need to prove ourselves to God were not going to change, because he clearly changed many of them.

            God said nothing about the adultery that the patriarchs committed when they even had children with their wives handmaidens, but Jesus sure made it clear that when He came, god would only recognize one male/female relationship in a LIFETIME!!

            And Leviticus clearly says that doing work on the Sabbath would be punishable by death but when the Pharisees chided

            Him about healing on the Sabbath and his Apostles searching the fields for food on the Sabbath, – he said it was OK to do good on the Sabbath.

            And although Moses told men that they could divorce their wives by giving them a paper of divorcement, Jesus said that God did not recognize divorce.

            So sorry, just like with everything else YOU’RE CLEARLY WRONG!!!!

            God has changed the guidelines by which we can live!!!

          9. Independent1 September 8, 2015



          10. David September 8, 2015

            First, we don’t know everything Jesus said or did. Second, we know that in the Old Testament homosexuality was proscribed. The New Testament doesn’t favor homosexuality either. E.g., Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; and, 1 Timothy 1:8-10. God doesn’t like what queers do!

          11. Independent1 September 8, 2015

            What many scholars believe Paul was referring to in his letters and denouncing, was a practice of open homosexual displays that groups were doing at the time. It had nothing to do with actual loving relationships such as what gays today are asking to legalize.

          12. Sand_Cat September 8, 2015

            Yes, I should follow your rules for interpreting the Bible. Maybe you should think a little more about “context” yourself : for example, the evidence that gay people are born that way, or the fact that the rules you cite when convenient to you were written literally thousands of years ago by ignorant and – if we can trust the “Old Testament” – bloodthirsty barbarians with no knowledge of biology, astronomy, cosmology, geology, or much of anything else other than their superstitions, but of course your rules are for everyone else, not you.
            I’m sure you’ll make a lot of converts here by calling us scum and deliberately misrepresenting our positions, and citing YOUR “INTERPRETATION” of what you call “God’s law” as absolute and inarguable.
            And no, you don’t hate gays: just everything about them, and all you want to do is pass unConstitutional laws to abuse and punish them for what you think are their sins, while of course all of yours are forgiven and thus not worth thinking about. Governments are about punishing CRIMES, not SINS. I realize that distinction is lost on you except when examining your own faults, but try to consider a context that has at least some relationship to reality.

    5. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

      I enjoy watching you obey Jesus and not judge others lest ye be judged…

      1. David September 7, 2015

        Oops…you are mistaken. Jesus said not to judge out of prejudice or hypocrisy. You can judge based on God’s Law.

  5. idamag September 7, 2015

    Yes, to them religious liberty is the right to discriminate and hate. Homosexuality is condemned in the Leviticus laws. You can’t pick and choose which law to force on society. Since those same laws say that a woman, who has given birth, is unclean and must be isolated from society 33 days for a boy and 66 days for a girl. A woman, in her mensus, is isolated from the tribe 7 days. Women show up in church with tiny babies to be blessed, baptised and ,in the Hebrew religion (to be circumcised) long before their isolation is over. Husbands have been known to break those rules by even being in the delivery room when the baby is born or seen holding their wives hands, later. Should the clerk, in the DMV be allowed to refuse to issue a drivers licence to a woman if she cannot prove she is not in her mensus? When you “good” Christians sit down to your Easter ham dinner, you are breaking a leviticus law.

    1. Independent1 September 7, 2015

      Ida, what the majority of conservatives (being fake Christians) fail to acknowledge today, is that the New Testament, made the Old Testament obsolete – and 2000 years later, the commandments in the Old Testament should have been FORGOTTEN!!

      God through the writer of Hebrews made that clear at the end of the 8th chapter. I won’t post the whole thing, but verses 7 and 13 of Hebrews 8 make that perfectly clear:

      7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:

      13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


      Is 2000 years not enough for something that God said was obsolete, to have vanished (disappeared)???

      1. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

        The laws that allow “christian’ bigots to judge and condemn others will never be superceded or made obsolete.

        1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

          You may be wrong on that account. They will just be switched to shira law.

          1. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

            In practice, how much difference is there?

      2. Sena (ツィーナ) September 7, 2015

        “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” -Matthew 5:17 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm)

        1. Independent1 September 8, 2015

          Jesus was talking about the overall commandments of Loving and serving God and striving to help others. He clearly was not talking about the details – as he personally changed many of them.

          Before Jesus, God did not say anything against many of the patriarchs outright adultery – even having children with their wives handmaidens. But Jesus made it clear from Him forward, God would only acknowledge one marriage in a lifetime and anything outside that was a sin – adultery.

          Leviticus says that any work on the Sabbath is punishable by death – but when the Pharisees questioned Jesus about healing on the Sabbath and even his apostles searching for food – Jesus said it was okay to do good on the Sabbath – clearly another change.

          And I could list numerous other incidents where the commandments of the Old Testament were changed with Jesus including divorce – Moses said it was okay – Jesus said it wasn’t.
          And on and on!!!

          Sorry, Jesus never meant that what God expected of us to earn Heaven, would not change – including how God may feel about gay relationships. As even scientists of today know that it is often not a choice but part of a person’s being resulting from their genes. It even occurs in animals.

      3. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

        As long as a Religio-nutter can cherry-pick the whole Bible, referencing anything from it, Old or New, is worthless in terms of contradicting their idiocy.

    2. hicusdicus September 7, 2015

      How about not issuing a license if the clerk thinks she might drive drunk some time.

    3. Mark T September 8, 2015

      She isn’t discriminating or hating. She is following her convictions.

      If you’re going to be a Pavlov Dog at least bark a few times, idamag. For about the thousandth time on here, disagreeing with you liberals doesn’t make someone a racist, a bigot, hateful, or a bot.

      1. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

        Not discriminating or hating? If nothing else, I should think some one should have something to say about her “convictions” that she can continue to collect her salary and benefits from the government while refusing to do her job and disobeying the law. Like many modern “Christians,” her “deeply held religious convictions” seem to agree very nicely with her convenience.
        And refusing to issue marriage licenses because she thinks gays shouldn’t marry isn’t discrimination?
        For the billionth time here, you conservatives need to check what you’ve been saying about us and DOING to us FOR THE LAST 50 OR 60 YEARS before whining about mistreatment in the form of reasonably accurate verbal expression about the “conservative” (more like lunatic right-wing) agenda and those who advocate it. Of course you have skin in the game: you come here to make degrading comments about liberals, and this lady’s discriminatory actions are your perfect excuse. What would you call ignoring all of the rules in the book of Leviticus and much of the “New Testament” except for one obscure passage she can use to harm gay people and “liberals” (i.e., those who think the government and government officials like Ms Davis and many other “conservatives” should be bound by the entire Bill of Rights, not just the 2nd Amendment).
        If you can’t take strong disagreement with your lapdog parroting of the GOP line, feel free to go whine on the right-wing and “Christian” sites with the other lunatics.

    4. Mark T September 9, 2015

      BTW I don’t have a dog in this fight religiously. I don’t goto church. So don’t call me a bible thumper bc that couldn’t be farther from the truth.

      I just believe this the same religious freedoms guaranteed to islamics should be guaranteed to Christians.

      1. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

        I think it is. Perhaps you should try for a reality check.

  6. charleo1 September 7, 2015

    With all due respect to religion. And I say that, because spirituality, and religion are things the vast majority of we humans, and therefore we Americans, claim a great affinity for. In great numbers we believe in a higher being, that we have a soul, and that it’s immortal. We also in great numbers believe in ghosts, U.F.O.s, and the inherent evil of the Trilateral Commission. So, it’s no surprise to any of us that some people are much more into their beliefs than others. And so come to see themselves, and their faith as one and the same, two peas in a pod, inseparable. This is the heart of Kim Davis’ case as I understand it. She claims, because she cannot under any circumstances separate herself from her faith, she has no choice in the matter. She is in fact, a slave to her faith! And that of course prohibits her from having her name on a State permission slip for same sex couples to marry. Now historically we’re a very accommodating Country when it comes to matters of people observing their faith. So the Court respectfully asks County Clerk Davis if perhaps someone else in her office not so encumbered might issue such licenses? No can do, says Davis. Because as County Clerk, my name is pre embossed on these things. So I couldn’t possibly allow it. But it’s the law Ms. Davis! Man’s law, not God’s, Davis correctly points out. And you know my inseparable condition. So naturally, in the eyes of many Davis supporters, a great injustice was carried out by a Godless Judge, enforcing the immoral decision of a lawless Supreme Court, by sending Ms, Davis to jail for following her inviolable religious convictions. For Ms. Davis’s third, or is he her fourth husband? The judges decision was proof America is turning into Russia. “We might as well be in Russia!” He angrily declared. He also related to concerned well wishers that Ms. Davis was in good spirits, and that her faith was sustaining her. Much like Job, or even Christ Himself, being crucified. Presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee likened Davis to the great Civil Rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. Noting that King also went to jail for his beliefs. Albeit to expand Civil Rights to an entire class of people, not deny them. But, close enough for the Evangelicals. Who are no doubt fearful this is the beginning of the Great Tribulations spoke of the Book Of Revelations. Portending the imminent Second Coming. After all, isn’t the Anti-Christ now President? Wasn’t the destruction Soddom and Gomorrah a warning about the coming destruction of America? Get ready children! The end is near. The Gay Apocalypse is upon us!

    1. plc97477 September 7, 2015

      So according to their bible we are near the end of times. Does that mean that kim is holding things up by not giving marriage certificates to gays?

      1. charleo1 September 7, 2015

        Well yes! I never thought about it. But, I would reckon Kim Davis might be kind of a speed bump on the World’s inevitable trajectory toward hell, and eternal damnation.

        1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

          That’s funny! I’m borrowing that analogy!

        2. hicusdicus September 7, 2015

          What ever she is she is definitively a speed bump in human evolution.

          1. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

            That we definitely agree on.

          2. hicusdicus September 8, 2015

            Sorry! I did not mean to ruin your day.

    2. hicusdicus September 7, 2015

      Sounds a whole lot like Iran and other Muslim countries. Although if Jesus is involved then everything is Okay.

      1. charleo1 September 7, 2015

        It also sounds a lot like Dark Age Christian Europe.

        1. hicusdicus September 7, 2015

          Its still the dark ages except it moved across the ocean.

          1. charleo1 September 7, 2015

            It might be as they say, everything old is new again? Or some such thing? Also we’d be remiss if we didn’t say a word or two about those Puritans. A group so fanatically enthralled with demons, sex, and zeal in observing all manner of religiosity. Even the stuffy Catholics, and Anglicans couldn’t tolerate their insufferable sanctimoniousness. And so kicked them all off the Continent.

          2. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            Religion, Gods real curse against human kind.

          3. charleo1 September 9, 2015

            a very wry comment… hicusdicus.

          4. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

            You’ve hit the nail on the head again! Don’t want to ruin your day, but BRAVO!

      2. Mark T September 8, 2015

        Please respect the diversity that spiritual people bring to this great country! Religious shaming is offensive! We all need to advocate religious tolerance in the US! Having religious groups makes this country a more vibrant place!

        1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

          Please respect things people believe in and will kill and maim in defense of that are no more than a figment of their imagination. Having groups of mentally impaired spiritually guided people who believe in life after death is the most dangerous thing humanity has ever faced. It does not make the US more vibrant it makes it more violent. Guns don’t kill people religion does.

          1. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

            I saw it as “Guns don’t kill people, people with gods kill people” on a bumper sticker.

          2. hicusdicus September 10, 2015

            Finally someone is correctly politically correct. There should be background checks on all church attendees, IQ requirements , medical reality checks and classes on mythical nonsense.

    3. Tony Carter September 7, 2015
    4. Katstiles September 7, 2015

      Over my dead body! I will not stand by and watch America turn into a Christian Iran!

      1. Mark T September 8, 2015

        There’s no chance in hell that this country becomes a Christian theocracy and you know it. So stop the histrionics. Your real fear should be what happens in 100 years when the Latinos and muslims fight over the scraps of this country…the winner of that will determine whether we continue to have a secular government, or if we goto federal sharia law. Please note that sharia law will probably exist on a local and state level in many locales at that time…but the question is whether it becomes the law of the land.

        1. Katstiles September 9, 2015

          No chance in hell? Two candidates for POTUS showed up to bask in Kim’s glory when she was released from jail. So at least two men who think they should be President believe religious belief is more important than obeying the laws of the US. By the way, worry about what is happening right now! You probably won’t be alive in 100 years.

      2. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

        How about an Islamic America?

    5. midway54 September 8, 2015

      Excellent points in a great post! At what point will this woman decide that Jews and Muslims for example cannot receive licenses because their religions unlike hers do not recognize the living Christ as the Son of God.

      1. charleo1 September 8, 2015

        Exactly! If the discrimination is legal under the subjective cover of following one’s strongly held belief. Where does the discrimination end? With what issue does it become out of bounds? And at what point does it simply become an abuse of power, and public office, to pursue a narrow, perhaps personal agenda? It’s funny, I thought we all understood this???

  7. Jack Hughes September 7, 2015

    Religious liberty for them means religious tyranny for everybody else. They won’t be satisfied with anything less than theocracy.

    1. charleo1 September 7, 2015

      As history has shown, replacing the Constitution, and installing a theocracy, would only be the beginning of their long winter of discontent. Because then, the quest for the ‘true believer’, becomes to install their brand of theocracy. Then comes the purge of “undesirables.” Of heretics, apostates, non-believers, and other so called enemies of the True God. That should be a lot of fun for the top dogs. For the rest of us, probably not so much.

      1. hicusdicus September 7, 2015

        Sounds like the plan liberals have for conservatives.

        1. charleo1 September 7, 2015

          Hey, there’s nothing wrong with Conservatives a little turning
          off the fake news, and pulling their heads out their rear ends wouldn’t cure.

        2. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

          Actually given the relentless drive of conservatives towards “Trickle Down Economics” (Code for Taxing the rich less) and “Reducing the Deficit” (Code for reducing social spending) that have contributed to a massive increase in inequality… it’s really the plan that the rich conservative politicians and their friends and their backers have for all of us (in a monetary sense anyway).

          1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            You really need to drop the conservative attacks it has no real meaning. The liberals are buying votes [ social spending] the GOP is[ filling the collection plate] buying god. The rich in both parties are rowing the same boat. The poor are hammering for the rich to support them. The people in the middle are scrambling to stay solvent. Both parties have the same agenda, stay rich and powerful and this means keeping the populace divided by any means. If the populace ever woke up to how they are being manipulated there would be blood running in the streets. The Bush and Bidens of the world would be hanging from street lamps.

  8. leadvillexp September 7, 2015

    It amazes me how people today do not use logic. This whole thing about religion and state makes no sense. The separation is that the state will endorse no one religion over others and that religion will not become a part of the state. If the clerk can not leave her beliefs at home than she should not take the job. Religion means different things to different people and God can also be different to different people. I am an Agnostic and believe in God. To me it is what ever started everything. It could be a stone or gas and may not even care if people exist. I don’t claim to know. Religion depends on faith and faith is like a myth. God and religion are two different things. I have supported the Ten Commandments in the court house because they are good rules to live by and “In God We Trust” on Police cars because they only say they trust in God. These are not endorsements of any religion, just good sayings to live by. The clerk however is forcing her beliefs on others while doing so in an elected position. She should look for different work.

    1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

      You can’t apply logic to religion. Since it’s all a leap of faith, those who use it to further their agenda, which is ultimately control and being able to trample on the rights of others, can make up the rules as they go along. If those who claim to be devout, followed the tenets of doctrines to the letter, of the religions they claim to follow, we wouldn’t be having these problems. Instead God has become as much of a prop to them as faux patriotism.

      1. pisces63 September 7, 2015

        Here is that ‘logic’. Once when Mormons were young , they were chased and massacred across this naton. They made Billy Graham take down his Web against them for Mitt Romney. THEN, Jews were ostracized and restricted in scools, clubs, restaurants. Yet, now these same people sic Netanyahu on a sitting president. HE honestly thinks these people like him. White supremacists groups don’t like jews, blacks, catholics, etc. Most are religious fanatics, too.

        1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

          It boggles the mind.
          When Mitt was running, to sell him to the religious fundamentalists (who consider Mormonism a cult) the TV preacher Joel Osteen called Romney “Christian enough”. (What he really meant was he was white enough and the religion was something they should overlook) Instead of saying the religion of the person we are electing doesn’t matter as that person isn’t going to interject his religious beliefs into it, they were instead trying to convince the zealots that enough of Romney’s beliefs could be considered Christian, while they had been calling it a cult and focusing on the differences in their own churches!
          Because there are major differences in the tenets and doctrines, mainstream Christian religions do not recognize the Mormon faith as a Christian religion. One of the main issues is once baptized in a Christian faith, if you join another Protestant or Catholic church you don’t have to be baptized again in that faith. Your baptism is recognized. In the Mormon church if you convert from any mainstream Christian faith to Mormon, you do have to be baptized again. Not to mention Joseph Smith said all the creeds of Christian religions were an abomination (according to the visions directing him) Not a real endorsement that he thought Mormons were Christians.

          I found the article:
          “Many Christians do not consider Mormons to be Christians because they do not hold orthodox beliefs on core doctrines such as original sin, grace, the inerrancy of the Bible, and the understanding of the Trinity is different.
          Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/joel-osteen-mormon-romney-is-christian-obama-is-too-73826/#tTzmDmwgA2xhb0Bs.99

          1. paulyz September 7, 2015

            Another racist assumption stating “what he really meant was he White enough…..” Naughty -Naughty.

          2. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

            paulyzzzzz, chew through your restraints again?

          3. paulyz September 8, 2015

            I seen that you did though, with your racist assumptions. Didn’t know you were a mind-reader of Osteen’s mind.

          4. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            All any religious group does is pit their people against the other so called false religions to help fill their collection plates. Before God created the heavens and the earth he created the collection plate.

          5. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            Every Christian denomination assures the other denominations that they are going straight to hell. I always thought that the road to hell was twists a turns through depravity. I always kinda hoped the road to hell was paved with fresh crisp bacon with well spaced picnic tables.

      2. idamag September 7, 2015

        hiscadiscus is an argumentative child who really does not understand the conversations.

        1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

          I thought Mr. Hic was an elderly soul. Perhaps he’s just feeling cranky. To his credit he has a great number of rescue dogs. I generally overlook his snark because he is often humorous and on point but he also plays both sides of any argument for his own amusement. 🙂

          1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            Without me your life would be boring and there would be no one to enlighten you on the real issues. Thank your fictional creator that he has sent me to guide you out of harms way. Idamag needs to stop wearing corsets that are to tight. It impairs blood flow to the brain.

      3. Katstiles September 7, 2015

        Some people are inspired by their faith to love other people regardless of sexual orientation, religion, culture, race and don’t seek to impose their beliefs on others against their wills. Then there are the people I call Bible Thumpers. They use their brand of faith as an excuse to hate other people who are different from themselves. They also “cherry pick” the particular verses in the Bible that seem to justify their hate while ignoring the others they find inconvenient. This Davis woman is definitely a Bible Thumper!

        1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

          I agree. I have the greatest respect for the people of faith who follow the tenets and doctrines of their chosen beliefs. The others misuse religion for their own agenda. Those agendas almost involve their fears and feelings about those they dislike. They wield religion as though it’s a weapon.

          1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            You have the greatest respect for people of faith like Islam???????????

            There are I billion Muslims who’s religious hand book says kill the infidel. That’s me and you.

        2. Mark T September 9, 2015

          Who cares if some last place candidate was there to get his name on tv for the first time in a month?

          The only candidate you should worry about is Donald J Trump and last I checked he wasn’t there.

      4. leadvillexp September 8, 2015

        It would seem you are correct.

      5. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

        You have forgotten the religion of peace again.

        1. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

          Seems like she covered it pretty well, if you are referring to Islam.

    2. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

      You sound like a good person, but have you read the 10 Commandments lately? At least the first three concern worshipping a very particular – and particularly nasty – god. Saying “In God We Trust’ is very definitely endorsing a particular religion, or small group of religions: Judaism, Christianity, and possibly Islam, which many people find – often with good reason – THE most offensive religions in the world, and those that have definitely caused the most misery and death, both among their believers and unfortunate bystanders.

      1. hicusdicus September 7, 2015

        In god we trust does not endorse any particular religion.

        1. Sand_Cat September 7, 2015

          Oh really? The blindness of ignorance: many religions have no god, or would not necessarily trust the ones they do have.

          1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            I always thought those strange non god beliefs were called cults. I guess it does not matter what you call them they are still nonsense.

          2. Sand_Cat September 9, 2015

            “Cults” are what we call other people’s religion (Joseph Campbell)
            Buddhism and other godless religions are no more nonsense than Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and most of them are a very great deal less murderous.

      2. idamag September 7, 2015

        I noticed that the most violent religions come from the mideast. That includes the Bible.

        1. Sand_Cat September 8, 2015

          The most violent religions are those with one all-powerful male god who is jealous and insecure, and thus mandates grossly disproportional penalties for everything, but especially for questioning his “majesty” and “testing” him as he purportedly constantly tests his followers.

        2. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

          When did you notice this, right after I told you???

      3. leadvillexp September 8, 2015

        It has been a while so I looked them back up. You are correct about the first three but I would ask;1) which god is he, 2) if we followed it we would have no artists and 3) what is his name, there are so many. It doesn’t mention Christianity at all. The “In God We Trust” saying isn’t endorsing any religion. It could Thor the thunder god or anyone. It is in the eye of the believer. You are correct about offensive religions. One only needs to look at the wars today or go back to the Inquisition or Salem witch trials.

        1. Sand_Cat September 8, 2015

          As I pointed out below, several religions have no god, and others think
          the god[s] is/are unimportant. Some of the others would not likely try
          to put “IN GOD WE TRUST” on as many things as they’ve named after Ronald
          Reagan :>)

  9. greenlantern1 September 7, 2015

    Right now; a fiend named Warren Jeffs is rotting in prison because of the mockery that he made of marriage!
    Among his crimes are polygamy and the “marriage” of Children!
    Does he belong behind bars?
    Both Lesbians and homosexuals are quite barren.
    What fetus?
    Margaret Hoover, of the Hoover Foundation, supports gay marriage.
    Is the Hoover Foundation against religious liberty?
    Any more games?

    1. Polana September 7, 2015

      Her god told her to divorce and marry 3 times. What/who’s God??

      1. pisces63 September 7, 2015

        Yet, the Catholic Church would excommunicate her after the first BUT, if she murdered him, she would confess and be okay!!!

        1. Carolyn1520 September 7, 2015

          She could have the marriage annulled in a Catholic church through aTribunal and for a price. I don’t know if 3 annulments would fly though. 🙂
          They don’t automatically excommunicate people for divorcing. They can’t remarry in the church unless there is an annulment though.

          1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

            Can’t remarry in the church! Now there is something to sweat bullets over.

          2. pisces63 September 9, 2015

            Thank you!! 🙂

  10. jointerjohn September 7, 2015

    The “law” found in the Old Testament also forbids the touching of the skin of a dead pig. Does that mean that football players must wear gloves? What if one wears Hush Puppy shoes without socks? OK, that last one should be condemned anyway, regardless of anything the Bible says.

    1. plc97477 September 7, 2015

      How would they put on those hush puppy shoes?

      1. ralphkr September 7, 2015

        Very simple, plc,by wearing gloves (but not pigskin gloves)

    2. silas1898 September 7, 2015

      Footballs are not made of pig skin.

      The OT does say that adulterers must be stoned to death though…

  11. Phil Temmer September 7, 2015

    I’m 100% for religious freedom –
    But that means means freedom FROM religion, as well as freedom OF religion; to worship as you choose – but keep it in your homes and churches.mosques or synagogues.
    If a religious law conflicts with civil law, civil law must prevail. The USA is not not a theocracy.
    If that’s what you want, government run by religion, go to a country like Iran or Afghanistan.

    1. jtxl September 7, 2015


    2. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

      Worshiping as you choose for yourself and everybody else. The ONE thing religion does not believe in is freedom. Religion means being subservient to somebodies mythical beliefs about their god. That is not freedom.

  12. sunjune September 7, 2015

    A job taken, is a job worth doing to the best of your ability. When you refuse to do your job; that is time to leave that job.

    1. tallen387 September 8, 2015

      And most people don’t even swear an oath to do that job to the best of their ability….

  13. Learjet September 7, 2015

    What would these FREAKS think if they went to buy a gun and the merchant refused because it was against their religion? They’d be in an uproar. Hypocritical simpletons.

  14. Kurt CPI September 7, 2015

    Freedom of Religion is guaranteed by the Constitution, but that doesn’t mean it trumps all other freedoms. Failure to comply with social and legal mandates based religious
    criteria has been given lots of latitude throughout the history of the US. At
    some point, religions need to be called to the carpet where one stated belief
    conflicts with another for no other apparent reason than what suits the
    congregation. “Love thy neighbor”, “Love thine enemy” and “Judge not…” are all
    parts of Christian dogma, yet rationalization for bigotry always seems to leave
    that part out…

    1. Insinnergy September 7, 2015

      Something we agree on. I admit I don’t understand the willful blindness to aspects of their own belief system that these people demonstrate.

  15. Name September 7, 2015

    Read it, learn it, live it!

  16. 1Zoe55 September 7, 2015

    I live near Sparta and Bowling Green, Virginia, the area that tried to outlaw inter-racial marriages some years ago. One saw the same old, pinch-faced men and women brandishing their bibles and saying it was against their God’s law for people of different races to marry. Of course, they lost that battle too in the Supreme Court. These same folks never once addressed the reality of the racially mixed babies that had long been fathered by mostly white men in this area. This misreading of their religion sickens me because then, as now, no one was forced to marry someone outside their own race. No one has to marry a lesbian, transgender or a homosexual person either, so have these people learned nothing? They have always had religious liberty, but they try to push their religion on others, cloaking their efforts as their civil rights. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.

    1. Daniel Jones September 7, 2015

      Oh, they rant (mostly to folks like Limbaugh) that allowing gay marriage or “miscegenation” will cause such marriages to be forced on people..
      These folks haven’t changed their tune since D.W. Griffith (creator of Birth Of A Nation, which was based off the story “The Klansman”), they just change the masking tape.

      1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

        Who are you talking about???

    2. jtxl September 7, 2015

      I don’t think she is trying to push her religion on others because she has clearly shown herself to be living against it herself with all her divorces and extramarital sex and children out of wedlock. What she is doing is using religion as an excuse to publicly spew hate at homosexuals.

  17. Magnus Thunderson September 7, 2015

    with Kim it is indolence as she refuses to do her job nor step down what she want is her job and not do it which is so wrong and a person would get fired for doing in any job just as a employee who refused to serve a police officer at a Wendy’s and his manager who supported his choice

  18. @HawaiianTater September 7, 2015

    Losing the right to discriminate means you are persecuting the ones who have lost that right. That’s conservative logic for ya.

  19. tallen387 September 7, 2015

    Just curious…

    Didn’t Kim Davis have to swear some sort of oath before assuming the office of county clerk?

    What did that oath say? Was there any mention of “faithfully uphold the laws of the state of Kentucky”?

    Did she understand that the word “faithfully” probably didn’t mean what she thought it did?

    1. ayungclas September 7, 2015

      Section 228 of the Kentucky Constitution, oath of officers and attorneys:
      Members of the General Assembly and all officers, before they enter upon the execution of the duties of their respective offices, and all members of the bar, before they enter upon the practice of their profession, shall take the following oath or affirmation:

      “I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of ——————— according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God.”

      1. tallen387 September 8, 2015


        Gotta admit, I particularly like the part about the duels.

  20. jtxl September 7, 2015

    Texas oath specifically says that the person’s religion will not affect their ability to do their job. I don’t know what kentucky has but my biggest question is that almost every day someone in politics is being interviewed like huckabee on sunday but no one is asking them why this woman considers herself godly while also blaspheming the same bible with her 4 marriages and 2 children born out of wedlock? I personally do not have a problem with either but since she is bringing in theology, why was she allowed to get a 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriage license and exactly what kind of hypocrite is she? I also find it interesting that huckabee has latched on to another hypocrite for media attention. Fine but why aren’t reporters asking the question

    1. Independent1 September 7, 2015

      Exactly!! How could someone so outright hipocritIcal, such as she was, garner so much support from supposed Republican fake Christians, when she was clearly living in far greater sin, than the sin she was clearly misguidedly trying to supposedly prevent. There’s absolutely no evidence in the Bible that God considered gay relationships a sin – and even if he did 2,000 years ago, does not mean he does so today- IT IS NOT OUR PLACE TO MAKE THAT JUDGEMENT.

  21. Sheridan Perkins September 8, 2015

    So a quick question. If, instead of being an apostolic Christian, the clerk was a pacifist Mennonite (which is indeed part of Mennonite doctrine) and refused to issue gun permits or hunting licenses on religious grounds, would that also be okay to all the gun owners and hunters out there? Somehow I doubt it.

    1. Sand_Cat September 10, 2015

      People whose “consciences” allow them to collect pay while abusing the Constitution and not doing their government jobs should be expelled if they haven’t the decency to resign in protest. You may somehow doubt it, but it’s true. I can’t help but observe that all you “conservatives” have no respect whatsoever for the First Amendment when someone contradicts your opinions, but have raised the second to the level of divine law, even formally associating it with your “religion” (guns and god) and interpreting it to protect the “right” of homicidal psychopaths to assemble arsenals sufficient for a military battalion, no questions asked.
      {Edit} I also strongly suspect most Mennonites would have more sense than to take a government job that would require them to violate their religion, if they believed that strongly, which is more than I can say for certain “apostolic Christians.”

  22. mike621 September 8, 2015

    “Religious Freedom ” (such as she seeks) requires EVERYONE (even if they DON’T subscribe to YOUR particular “Religion” to live subject to the Tenets of YOUR Religion — Thusly, E V E R Y O N E (Christians, Jews, Buddists, Atheists, Agnostics, Hindustani, etc., etc., included) MUST face Mecca once a day, and make a Hajj to Mecca, at least once in their lives; lest Muslim Religious Freedom be compromised just like these poor persecuted Christians….

  23. Aaron_of_Portsmouth September 8, 2015

    The Extreme Right and their version of “Religious Liberty” are simply an extension of the previous Religions’ intolerance of the appearance of any subsequent Religion’s appearance that expanded on the limited understanding of prior eras, or of new scientific evidence, e.g., that the Earth was not flat, or that the Sun and the stars did not revolve around the earth—ideas that led to the persecution of Galileo and Copernicus. The status quo Religion of early America saw to it that Religious Liberty extended primarily to Christians and declared, for example, that the indigenous people’s spiritual values and practices were of little if any value; and deemed that the slaves were only half-human, thus justifying and providing an excuse to acquire wealth and expand the American economy at the expense of others.

    Of course, the essence of Christianity teaches no such things—it’s just that the believers no longer know how to “correctly” read their Book, nor are they aware of the concept of “context”, “exigency”, or of the need for certain old Laws to be rewritten and/or modified to fit the needs of an ever-changing world. It’s true that certain Principles and Laws are immutable, but many others are designed to be relevant for a particular period, e.g. what to eat and what not to, the length of one’s beard, the style of clothing. To definitively know what is “allowed” and “not allowed” a “Standard” must exist, and that Standard is always presented by the most recent Religion as part of the paradigm of “Progressive Revelation” as alluded to in the Previous Books, and now more clearly elucidated in the Writings of Baha’u’llah, and elaborated on by Abdu’l Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

    1. hicusdicus September 9, 2015

      My, what an eloquent crock of crap.

  24. nicole_booker September 8, 2015

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