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Friday, October 21, 2016

Aug. 31 (Bloomberg) — Mitt Romney delivered a good acceptance speech that will help him in the polls. But it won’t fundamentally change the contours of his campaign, which now depends on compensating for his deficits with women and Hispanics by maximizing the white working-class male vote.

This means emitting a series of “dog whistles” — carefully coded messages heard only by anxious white voters inclined to think President Barack Obama is too easy on minorities.

Neither Romney nor his running mate, Representative Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, went heavy on dog whistles in their speeches this week. The Republican National Convention was devoted to softening Romney’s image and too much racial subtext would have gone over badly.

But both men did assert that Obama was raiding Medicare to pay for Obamacare, a coded way of telling senior citizens that the president was taking their benefits and giving them to poor (read black) uninsured people.

This is entirely untrue. Obama’s plan doesn’t cut any basic Medicare benefits and, in fact, reduces prescription-drug costs for senior citizens.

Meanwhile, a welfare dog whistle continues to account for half of Romney’s paid advertising against Obama. A Romney ad in heavy rotation says that under a recent welfare-policy change “they just send you your welfare check.” That’s false, but it successfully conjures unemployed people sitting on the couch mooching off the middle class.

Contrary to the claims of some Democrats, there was no explicit racist tone at the convention in Tampa, Florida. When a black CNN camerawoman was pelted with nuts by two white convention goers who said, “this is how we feed the animals,” it was an isolated incident. Green, not black, is the color that most interested the well-heeled delegates.

Even so, I was troubled to find delegates — including one with close ties to Romney — who actually believe that Obama should disclose his Occidental College transcript to prove that he deserved to be admitted to Columbia University as a transfer student in 1981. This was a sign that even as the so-called birthers have been relegated to the fringe, many Republicans still disrespect Obama in ways that they might not if he were white. Dare I say the same might go for Clint Eastwood?

In employing dog whistles, the Romney campaign is tapping into racial themes that Republicans have used going back to 1968, when Richard Nixon inaugurated his infamous “Southern strategy.”

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Copyright 2012 The National Memo
  • sigrid28

    I missed Boehner’s lame bar jokes about the president, but I saw them in replay. Surely, they were no mistake and were calculated to set the tone for a cavalcade of insults the rest of the night. His over-the-top bar jokes were probably meant to compensate for Mitt Romney’s Mormonism, which forbids the heavy drinking, that parts of the Republican base consider practically a communion ritual. As the CW song goes, “My party arm is my drinking arm.” Appeal to GOOD-OLD-BOY BASE: check!

    I thought the birther theme sounded loud and clear when Romney intoned that the world needs an American to lead it–implying, not very subtly, no “foreign” or “un-American” presidents qualify, both codes for black. Appeal to BIRTHERS: check!

    His disrespectful sneer at the president with respect to climate change and protecting the environment stepped over the line in a way Romney knew would please the bigots in his base and anti-science fundamentalists at the same time. Appeal to BIGOTS and CREATIONISTS: check, check!!

    What to make of the fact that Romney didn’t list Jan Brewer in his group of prominent Republican women? Maybe Condi Rice doesn’t count anymore as black to some white Republican voters, so she stayed in. He made a slight effort to appease Hispanic voters by not giving Brewer prominence, assuming some had also been appeased by Rubio’s speech introducing Romney. Desperate appeal to HISPANICS: check!

    Finally, after a good night’s sleep (don’t ask me how), I must conclude that Clint Eastwood’s appearance with the empty chair, placed by someone, at his side was no less inadvertent than Mitt Romney’s birther joke in Michigan. There’s a part of the Republican base that thrives on demeaning the president and will not be sated by a polite Republican convention podium or platform. It was no mistake that Clint Eastwood played his part (the same part he always plays) by feeding red meat to this group in prime time before the speech by Romney, a man whom manly men in the proud-to-be-crude part of the Republican base distrust and probably dislike intensely. Appeal to TROLLS and FLAMERS: check! check!

    So I have to conclude that GOP operatives running Romney’s campaign are either so naive as to assume the American electorate will not see the stage craft behind these carefully choreographed insults, or so cynical as to assume that American voters who pick up on these dog whistles either respond to them in a positive way or take them in without pause, as part of the pageantry of the election. GOP operatives are just fine with offending Democrats.

    • Ibsyboy

      It’s all they have in their arsenal. Attack Obama. That’s it. Karl Rove’s PAC is set to unleash a barrage of Clint Eastwood style attacks on the POTUS. It’s all they have.
      Rove had a breakfast for Big Donors. Romney was not part of the pitch to raise money. It was solidly Obama hate. They don’t even have faith in their own candidate. They need tonnage of money to bury Obama. That’s all they have.

      My guess they will over do it and have most of America hating them for interrupting their favorite shows with BS negative ADs.

      • You obviously didnt watch the convention or only watched the MSNBC coverage . They by the way didn’t even air the 1st three minutes of Rubio because that Dog whistler Andrea Mitchell was bust telling everyone ewww uh weww those republicans suck . Most of the speakers didn’t have to even mention Obama too much all the talking was about what a great country America is and how we will make it better

        • Ibsyboy

          The Clint Eastwood act, that bit of silliness was aimed at the Obama haters. Clint came with a Gigantic totally embarrassing Dog Whistle and a truck load of Red Meat. The throat slice gesture was a nice touch. Got a great big round of applause, top with frantic cheers. Something all GOPers and Clint Eastwood’s friends and family, could be real proud of.

          There still wasn’t any indication of what R&R and the GOP have in store for America. What do they intend to replace ObamaCares with? Send us all back to the Insurance Companies? That’s perfect. Higher rates, no insurance for pre-existing conditions, wow, I can hardly wait to see how that works out for the American’s with out health care. And why I ask, are the tax cuts for the wealthy higher on their agenda than a jobs bill? Jobs; a word that appeared once in Christie’s self promotional speech. Also, Education. It currently is 3% of the Budget and they want to cut it. Whereas Defense is 25% of the budget and they want to raise that. Well, we can proudly say America protects its under educated.
          How do you account for the Demonizing of Unions and Teachers. Our Country and the Middle Class rose to prominence because of our education system and Union wages. People were able, through the GI Bill, to get an higher Education, and buy a home. That bill would never stand a chance of passing today.

          What is this obsession with obscene wealth? Here, think on this:

          A 2 income family. Spouse #1 earns 300 times as much as Spouse#2.
          Spouse #1 gets all of the benefits of the relationship. Yet Spouse#1 pays a 10th of what Spouse #2 does towards the household expenses.
          And Spouse#1 gripes about having to pay even a 10th of the expenses and thinks #1 should pay even less.

          How would you feel if you were Spouse #2. If you can imagine that. Then you now understand how the GOP sees the wealthy compared to you. You are #2 and sinking fast.

          • Now Clint Was Cut From The RNC By Romney Just Like He’s Going To Cut Out And Dump The 95% Who Will Vote For Him!! But He Will Take Care Of The Wealthy Voters And That’s It!! Trickle Down Polices Only Help The Wealthy!!! Plus He Going To Give Them Even More Tax Breaks !! Yet He Still Haven’t Shown His Taxes!!!

          • And he won’t because it will reveal the “Real Mitt”!

          • Another_Cat

            But, but…he’s going to take our guns! (even though our 5% of the world population owns 50% of the world’s guns)

            And if we the middle class are spouse #2…I personally am filing for divorce this November!

      • craigorie

        Rove and the diabolical hate mongers will self destruct. It will be fun to watch. Obama has truth, honesty & faith on his side.

    • BDD1951

      What’s even worse about Behner is that he is an alcholic.

      • Well, Obama is a doper, and a heavy drinker.

        • Prove that if you can Man/Woman

    • craigorie

      You’re so right, the electorate knows this and they also realize that Romney is just too odd. Obama will win and he will continue repairing the damage of the disastrous Bush years.

  • Ibsyboy

    Actually the entire convention was a giant Dog Whistle hoping for America’s Pet, Lassie to come. And save Mitt who fell down the well.

    • But Obama had already eaten Lasssie …Dogs to defeat Obama because in the crate is better then on the PLATE

      • Ibsyboy

        This is exactly what I expect a Right Winger would add to the conversation. Some witless comment about Obama. Like I said this is all you have to run on, getting rid of Obama. And if that will make you happy. Man, you come cheap. The Billionaires and chipping in a Billion Bucks to get rid of Obama. Not because you and yours hate him. They don’t give a damn about what you think. They are investing a Billion for a Big Return. Lower taxes, and Deregulation and who knows what else they may want. A prize which you do not get to share in. Their plan only involves you and yours as a source of cheap labor. Ryan is an Ayn Rand (the Atheist) disciple. She was a big supporter of unfettered Capitalism. That form of Capitalism does not include the underclass, which accounts for about 80% of the population of America. They under class is there for the grunt work. Low wages, longer hours, no benefits, no paid vacations, no weekends of , no overtime pay, no retirement funds. Nada. Nothing but that hard work the GOP praises so highly. Also something
        anathema to the Obscenely Wealthy. No body has or ever will do it on their own. That’s not how Democracy functions. I’d be happy to explain that if you would like.

        • sigrid28

          Here you have hit on one of the hidden secrets to super wealth in this country: nepotism and cronyism. When the 1% boasts that they deserve their success, what they are really expressing is an enormous sense of entitlement, not some equalizing measure of merit. Mitt Romney feels he is entitled to obtain the presidency, hoping perhaps to burnish his father’s reputation and set up his sons for future nepotistic successes. Think Bush dynasty or the Kennedys. His claim that he desires to help his country is as hollow as the hull of his luxury yacht, the “Cracker Bay.”

        • You are kidding me , right ? I mean 23 million Americans unemployed , a third of the country on Food Stamps . 16 tril deficit , more spending in 3 yrs then the previous 43 administrations did in the History of America , Bond rating drop for the 1st time in American history . So when you ask if thats all I got , the answer would obviously be NO . I have plenty of reasons why Obama is the worst President in American History . Anyone with the ability to think independently and open mindedly would come to the same conclusion . Ask yourself this . If Obama were a Republican and had that record would you vote for him ?? It is very telling that Obam will not run on his record and the things he will try to tout about himself will be SCAMpaigning aimed at low information voters . He will simply lie about his record and simpleton Libs like Sarah Jessica Parker will say things like …” you know the guy who has create4d 4 million new jobs ” all without mentioning the jobs Obama has created are minimum wage part time jobs and while creating 4 million he has lost about 6 million for a net Job Loss of approx 2 Million …I can do this all day using fact and logic . If you read this and try to answer the question of whetehr yuou would be voting for Obama if he were a Republican with his record I would love to see your reasons

          • Ibsyboy

            That’s right the President of the United States is the head of the National Employment service, he hires and fires people. He hired 4 million then fired 6 million for a net firing of 2 million. He intends to keep unemployment high for as long as he can. he also controls the price of Gasoline, he runs the futures market for oil futures. He buys cheap waits until demand rises then he sells it at a huge profit and forces gasoline prices up. It always amazes me how the prices go up in the summer time, when people are using more gasoline. I wonder how he figured that one out. Smart man. And that Hurricane Isaac, the president runs the secret weather control center in the basement of the white house and he created Isaac to disrupt the GOP Event in Tampa, and he threw in some flooding in Louisiana so he can go down there a look Presidential. I forgot, he dressed up in gear and joined the SEALS in the hunt for OBL. He was the one who made the head shot that killed OBL. He should let more people know about his personal involvement in killing OBL. He has been way to humble.

            Let me see, what else has he done, oh yes, the stock market is roaring again, Corporate profits are at historical levels. Nah, that’s a good thing, can’t give him credit for that. There is a rise in poverty as the Financial Markets grow. That has got to Obama’s doing. Yes, he prevents the financial success of the Country from Trickling down to the population, so they are forced into Poverty, and he can take created for that rise in Poverty. What a saint. Taking all of the Country’s woes and accepting the blame for what is his fault anyway. What a guy. Now if he could only finish off the Middle Class than his job will be done.

            I don’t understand his reluctance to lower taxes on the Wealthy, when he would benefit from the lower taxes. What’s that about? Romney is no fool , top of his list is lowering taxes on himself and his friends who got him the White House. and let’s throw in some deregulation to make it that much easier to acquire more wealth. Yeah, baby. The under class be damned, check the margins, we are all going to be stinking rich. Not the under class though, we need the cheap labor. Yeah, we need to keep Obama, without him who will we be able to blame. He’s perfect for that job, he seems to like taking the blame for every single problem of every single person in the USA. He is valuable in that way. Why would you want to get rid of the best scape goat history has ever provided the Country.

        • You are kidding me , right ? I mean 23 million Americans unemployed , a third of the country on Food Stamps . 16 tril deficit , more spending in 3 yrs then the previous 43 administrations did in the History of America , Bond rating drop for the 1st time in American history . So when you ask if thats all I got , the answer would obviously be NO . I have plenty of reasons why Obama is the worst President in American History . Anyone with the ability to think independently and open mindedly would come to the same conclusion . Ask yourself this . If Obama were a Republican and had that record would you vote for him ?? It is very telling that Obam will not run on his record and the things he will try to tout about himself will be SCAMpaigning aimed at low information voters . He will simply lie about his record and simpleton Libs like Sarah Jessica Parker will say things like …” you know the guy who has create4d 4 million new jobs ” all without mentioning the jobs Obama has created are minimum wage part time jobs and while creating 4 million he has lost about 6 million for a net Job Loss of approx 2 Million …I can do this all day using fact and logic . If you read this and try to answer the question of whetehr yuou would be voting for Obama if he were a Republican with his record I would love to see your reasons

          • Ibsyboy

            Shame on you!!! He is running on his record. As a social conservative. He has made cuts to programs other DEMs would never had touched, and he proposes the Government can help the economy as much as the GOP believes the same thing. It’s just that the GOP offers Government help through tax cuts. reducing our revenue, Spending in other words.

            Although there was a big stimulus bill under Obama, federal spending is rising at the slowest pace since Dwight Eisenhower brought the Korean War to an end in the 1950s.

            According to the official government statistics:

            • In the 2009 fiscal year — the last of George W. Bush’s presidency — federal spending rose by 17.9% from $2.98 trillion to $3.52 trillion. Check the official numbers at the Office of Management and Budget.

            • In fiscal 2010 — the first budget under Obama — spending fell 1.8% to $3.46 trillion.

            • In fiscal 2011, spending rose 4.3% to $3.60 trillion.

            • In fiscal 2012, spending is set to rise 0.7% to $3.63 trillion, according to the Congressional Budget Office’s estimate of the budget that was agreed to last August.

            • Finally in fiscal 2013 — the final budget of Obama’s term — spending is scheduled to fall 1.3% to $3.58 trillion. Read the CBO’s latest budget outlook.

        • You are kidding me , right ? I mean 23 million Americans unemployed , a third of the country on Food Stamps . 16 tril deficit , more spending in 3 yrs then the previous 43 administrations did in the History of America , Bond rating drop for the 1st time in American history . So when you ask if thats all I got , the answer would obviously be NO . I have plenty of reasons why Obama is the worst President in American History . Anyone with the ability to think independently and open mindedly would come to the same conclusion . Ask yourself this . If Obama were a Republican and had that record would you vote for him ?? It is very telling that Obam will not run on his record and the things he will try to tout about himself will be SCAMpaigning aimed at low information voters . He will simply lie about his record and simpleton Libs like Sarah Jessica Parker will say things like …” you know the guy who has create4d 4 million new jobs ” all without mentioning the jobs Obama has created are minimum wage part time jobs and while creating 4 million he has lost about 6 million for a net Job Loss of approx 2 Million …I can do this all day using fact and logic . If you read this and try to answer the question of whetehr yuou would be voting for Obama if he were a Republican with his record I would love to see your reasons

        • You are kidding me , right ? I mean 23 million Americans unemployed , a third of the country on Food Stamps . 16 tril deficit , more spending in 3 yrs then the previous 43 administrations did in the History of America , Bond rating drop for the 1st time in American history . So when you ask if thats all I got , the answer would obviously be NO . I have plenty of reasons why Obama is the worst President in American History . Anyone with the ability to think independently and open mindedly would come to the same conclusion . Ask yourself this . If Obama were a Republican and had that record would you vote for him ?? It is very telling that Obam will not run on his record and the things he will try to tout about himself will be SCAMpaigning aimed at low information voters . He will simply lie about his record and simpleton Libs like Sarah Jessica Parker will say things like …” you know the guy who has create4d 4 million new jobs ” all without mentioning the jobs Obama has created are minimum wage part time jobs and while creating 4 million he has lost about 6 million for a net Job Loss of approx 2 Million …I can do this all day using fact and logic . If you read this and try to answer the question of whetehr yuou would be voting for Obama if he were a Republican with his record I would love to see your reasons

        • You are kidding me , right ? I mean 23 million Americans unemployed , a third of the country on Food Stamps . 16 tril deficit , more spending in 3 yrs then the previous 43 administrations did in the History of America , Bond rating drop for the 1st time in American history . So when you ask if thats all I got , the answer would obviously be NO . I have plenty of reasons why Obama is the worst President in American History . Anyone with the ability to think independently and open mindedly would come to the same conclusion . Ask yourself this . If Obama were a Republican and had that record would you vote for him ?? It is very telling that Obam will not run on his record and the things he will try to tout about himself will be SCAMpaigning aimed at low information voters . He will simply lie about his record and simpleton Libs like Sarah Jessica Parker will say things like …” you know the guy who has create4d 4 million new jobs ” all without mentioning the jobs Obama has created are minimum wage part time jobs and while creating 4 million he has lost about 6 million for a net Job Loss of approx 2 Million …I can do this all day using fact and logic . If you read this and try to answer the question of whetehr yuou would be voting for Obama if he were a Republican with his record I would love to see your reasons

          • Ibsyboy

            Of course I am kidding you. I have not studied American History that well. And I can’t name all of the Presidents of the US. But, I can confidently tell you, Obama is the worst President in the History of the USA. Please don’t ask me how I know that, I can’t tell you it’s a secret. Also, I can confidently tell you this: he is a Muslim, Socialist, Anti- American, A Kenyan by Birth, a foreign scholarship student, a man who never achieved anything. Bah, big deal he’s the POTUS, 40 plus men before him have done that too. First Negro POTUS, he’s only half Negro the other half is White, so it doesn’t count as being the first Negro POTUS. He went to Harvard and Columbia two the the top Elitists schools in the world. But he only got in because he was a Negro, being half White still makes you a Negro to Colleges. He is from Chicago and we all know what that means. His wife has a big butt, and we all know how Negroes love big butts. He travels on vacation on the Public dime, I have heard the first family is responsible for all personal expenditures, food, hotels, clothing, toothpaste, etc. But I have been assured that is a lie. Therefore the First Family is spending our money on a lavishlife style. Lavish for Negroes, that is.

          • here we go again with the endless BS…Repubs should just stay completely away from math ALTOGETHER. Every time a number comes up they bend it over a chair and lube it all up for the extream screwing it’s gonna get. The spending you so happily point to is a direct result of BUSH’s policies and the fact that this president put Defense ON THE BOOKS…now the people know how much all those shiny new planes cost…and something else to think about education is 3 % GDP defense 25% GDP….SOON WE WILL HAVE THE MOST GROSSLY UNDEREDUCATED WELL ARMED PUBLIC IN THE WORLD!

            by the way almost every administration spends more than the last …it’s called inflation…but your buddy BUSH who you so badly wish we’d forget really went nuts with it. THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION’S TOTAL INCREASE IN SPENDING IS CURRENTLY AT 1.4 % THE LOWEST IN HISTORY BUT YOU ARE SURE HE’S A FISCAL IDIOT. None of your boys has put forth anything remotely resembling a plan to do anything but re run Regan’s failed trickledown joke…not one business I was ever associated with benefitted in anyway from that policy.

        • You are kidding me , right ? I mean 23 million Americans unemployed , a third of the country on Food Stamps . 16 tril deficit , more spending in 3 yrs then the previous 43 administrations did in the History of America , Bond rating drop for the 1st time in American history . So when you ask if thats all I got , the answer would obviously be NO . I have plenty of reasons why Obama is the worst President in American History . Anyone with the ability to think independently and open mindedly would come to the same conclusion . Ask yourself this . If Obama were a Republican and had that record would you vote for him ?? It is very telling that Obam will not run on his record and the things he will try to tout about himself will be SCAMpaigning aimed at low information voters . He will simply lie about his record and simpleton Libs like Sarah Jessica Parker will say things like …” you know the guy who has create4d 4 million new jobs ” all without mentioning the jobs Obama has created are minimum wage part time jobs and while creating 4 million he has lost about 6 million for a net Job Loss of approx 2 Million …I can do this all day using fact and logic . If you read this and try to answer the question of whetehr yuou would be voting for Obama if he were a Republican with his record I would love to see your reasons

          • I lost my job and home and investments in 2008 due to the Bush years…explain that to your obscure ego-self. Am now 70 years old and guess what? No repub pres has done jack squat for me and in fact, when I was working, I was paying 38% of my income to the IRS. I’ll show you my tax records and Mitt thinks he did his duty paying 13% on his much more substantial income? Like I said before, tell us Mitt, your secrets on the road to riches (in addition to your inheritance) as you didn’t work for any of it other than sit around and screw people over. Now you claim some tithing issues over your reason not to release your tax returns? Give us all a break here…

        • rockin_the_bay_in_Tampa

          Well said…I even said in another reply that these el cheapos aren’t even in the same solar system as the millies and billies. All they want is Obama out! They can’t even tell you why, they just want him out…

          • Ibsyboy

            I’d like to add this observation: The Billionaires to Romney are putting up a Billion Bucks to get rid of Obama. The sad thing is the average GOPer thinks they want him out because they dislike him for the same reasons the average GOPer does.

            Truth be told, the Billionaires for Romney, don’t give a damn about welfare, or any social issues. It’s meaningless to them. They are betting a Near Billion Bucks to get one of their own in the White House. This is a huge financial investment on their own futures. The GOP will provide them with tax cuts and lots of deregulation of the financial and over all business sectors. Unfettered Capitalism. Answerable to no one.

            And the reward for the army of average GOPers; who have spent over 3 and a half years of their lives waging war against Obama, trying to destroy his character and Presidency, will be the week or two of joy that Obama is gone. Then reality will set in. The unfettered Capitalism being provided the Billionaires, does not include the under class, that part of the population who aren’t Billionaires. The underclass has two values to the 1%; votes and cheap labor. That’s it. Minimum wage will be eliminated, National Health care will be eliminated, Unions will finally be crushed, the working people will have no voice, The Walmart Model will be the new source of jobs in Ameirca. Low wages, longer hours, no over time, no health benefits, no pension, no weekends off, no paid vacations, no holidays off. We are returning to the glorious age of the Robber barons. You will do any job provided you, without any opportunity for advancement except a management position which entails longer hours.

            The Corporatists only care about profits, not people. People are a necessary inconvenience. But they will work for next to nothing. Particularly if yu can starve them out of Poverty. Then the cry form the Right will be the Negroes are taking our jobs.

          • Yeah, want him out because—well….we all know why now, don’t we??

        • Let them have it, Ibsyboy! Stupid and ignorant people they are to follow this line of bs and think they are “in” on the big secret of how to legally avoid taxes and screw the rest of us over. I mentioned it somewhere else on here that if these Romney people were truly concerned about the rest of us like they try to portray, then what is the problem with showing us how they do it??? That would show true caring, don’t you think?

          • Ibsyboy

            Caring takes effort and sacrifice. Right Wingers have no clue how lucky they are. They don’t need to concern themselves with the truth. Lying Ryan gave us an example of that. Broad unsubstantiated statements, no problem. Insults on a grade school level, here is where they excel.

            Being a Liberal, on the other hand, takes work, looking up facts and information. Caring, being informed, caring, substance to statements, and caring. Not easy. I forgot, putting up with Right Wing sloganeering and talking points presented as in full and complete facts.

      • Do you enjoy being the town idiot?

    • We need Matt Dillon back here now!

  • montanabill


    • BDD1951

      What, that’s all you got this morning?

      • montanabill

        That’s pretty much all the article is worth. With the ever increasing number of black Americans indicating their disappointment with the President, these attempts at trying to con them into thinking there is some kind of racial overtone to the election is laughable.

        • that is one of the best comments and analyisis on this subject I have heard

        • Idk if you have seen the recent poll but Romney is pulling 0% of blacks. So continue to live in your dreamland you lol republican.

        • jcbsdriver

          You really are dillusional, huh? It’s not just blacks, it’s gays, women, elderly, sick, poor, middle class, government employees like teachers, police, firemen etc. etc. The Romney camp has already admitted they are going after the white male demographic to win the election. When you degrade and diminish all others, there aren’t enough white guys to do the job. And plenty of white guys aren’t buying Romney’s BS either.

          • Unfortunately, that is not quite true about the elderly. Senior citizens are split between Obama and Romney as a result of GOP allegations that accuse Obama of destroying MEDICARE. Hopefully the President, and the DNC, will give this issue the attention it deserves during the upcoming convention and the remainder of the campaign, because seniors vote and we need their vote to win.

          • Ibsyboy

            Wait until the Obama Campaign asks this question regarding vouchers of Medicare. Find us an insurance company that will take a voucher form an 80year old, and one with preexisting conditions, just about every 80 year old has preexisting conditions . The answer is not one Insurance company will accept the voucher alone. The 80 year old will have to make up the difference and it ain’t gonna be cheap. Vouchers are the worse idea ever for Medicare. And I take it you are a politically aware person and know that Obama did not take 700 Million away from the recipients.

          • Ibsyboy, I think you misinterpreted my post, or I was not clear enough. My point was that seniors have been misled and believe President Obama took $716B out of MEDICARE and is determined to destroy to pay for Obamacare. The President and the DNC must clarify this issue or we risk losing an important constituency critical to us winning in November. BTW, I am intimately familiar with the pre-existing condition issue, one of my grandsons is severely handicapped and was denied coverage until Obamacare got rid of that draconian insurance clause.

          • Ibsyboy

            I was hasty in pointing out the upcoming attack against the GOP by the Obama Campaign, that my language upon re reading it missed the mark of supporting your remark, and it appears a bit critical which was not my intent. I was writing with a broader reach to those who disagree with your point. But, alas, I failed. Sorry.

          • montanabill

            You are buying the DNC strategy hook, line and sinker. It is ludicrous and you should know better. Every single one of us is the member of a minority of some kind. Do you really want a government that plays each of us against the other? You obviously didn’t watch the Republican convention or simply dismissed what you were seeing. I can’t speak for every Republican or conservative, but in the majority of our minds there is no such thing as a hyphenated American. We are simply Americans, some men and some women from every ethnic background possible. Some are new arrivals, some have families that have been here since the ice age, but at this point in time, all Americans. The Republican idea is that every single citizen has a right to as much freedom as possible so they can pursue their dreams unhindered by an overbearing and controlling government. History is full of governments that isolated groups for the sole purpose of control. It is still going on today in much of the world. It is my hope that this country does not succumb to being one of them.

          • jcbsdriver

            Actually, no, I am not buying the DNC strategy, I think I am pretty well informed. It seems pretty clear to me that the Republicans are doing exactly that. Trying to seperate people by minorities, income, and age. I actually believe your statement that we are all Americans. But then how do you expain the total indifference to different groups? That would mean that Republicans should be for Gay Marriage, Equal Rights for Women and minorities, Equal work for equal pay, The Dream Act, and others. We’re all Americans so we should all have the same freedoms and opportunities, Right?
            By the way, I am a Republican, but you will be hard pressed to get me to vote for Romney/Ryan or any Republican in my district running for Congress. I voted for John McCain in 2000 before Bush won the nomination and voted for him in 2000 in the primaries, but when he picked Sarah Palin as his running mate, my vote went to Obama. I feel the same way now because Romney picked Ryan. How can you support someone who gets on a national platform and states bold faced lies as the truth? I know there are different arguments over his statements, but I look at things from the general view that if you will go to such great lengths to twist the facts, mis-represent facts, and completly ignore the opposite side of the facts, then you will lie about anything, anytime. This man is
            a Liar.
            Romney and Ryan are isolating groups for the sole purpose to gain control. I agree with you that I hope this country does not let it happen.

          • montanabill

            I certainly don’t know what you have been watching unless it is MSNBC or CNN. Taking your groups one at a time:
            1. Gay Marriage is a religious issue and cuts across party lines. Most people I know are for legal civil unions, but not in favor of government dictating doctrine to religious groups.
            2. Equal Rights and Equal Pay: Republicans are completely for that. If you are referring to abortion, it is a religious issue, not a one party issue.
            3. The Dream Act. When it is structured to give advantages to one group of immigrants over another (illegal vs legal), it will cause opposition.
            What others?
            I find it funny that you could take such issue with what you consider lies from Ryan, but apparently have no problem with either Obama or Biden?
            I must totally disagree that it is Romney/Ryan isolating groups. Just the opposite. It is Obama and his campaign that are isolating groups as a campaign strategy.

          • jcbsdriver

            I never watch MSNBC and very rarely watch CNN. I also don’t watch FOX News. I actually get most of my news and information from printed publications. I read differing points of view on issues and try to see things from angles other than the ones I may see. If you can’t acknowledge that Ryan is telling bold-face lies, then there is no hope for you to ever be open minded to an opposite point of view. I am exactly the demographic the republicans are trying to convince to vote for them. Female, white, middle class, middle aged, employed and not receiving any type of government assistance. Instead when I post to sites like this I am argued with, insulted, and condemed for my opinion. You called me ludicrus and said I should know better. You are a perfect example of how the republican party has moved way to far to the right and is being influenced and controlled by the Tea Party radicals. You have only strenthened and helped to confirm my opinion to vote for Obama and Democrats for Congress.

          • montanabill

            When you use the term, ‘tea party radicals’, I know you are not a Republican and never have been, nor have you ever been to a tea party gathering. You are not open minded either. Obviously, you also think Joe Biden would be a much better President than Paul Ryan, and THAT says a lot. Sure you will argued with, if you post stuff like you have.

          • jcbsdriver

            I’ve been a registered republican for over 20 years! Your going to have to admit that there are people out here like me who don’t agree with you or Romney/Republicans. You like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman and Todd Akin? You really think they are not radical? They and people like them are why many moderate republicans seriously wonder what has happened to the republican party. Your right about the fact that I have never been to a tea party gathering. I’ll give you that much. But I bet I am a whole bunch more open minded than you are! Stay in denial, it helps to keep your fears at bay. Maybe when Jeb Bush runs in 2016 republicans can have some hope their party will return to a party people can actually believe it and vote for.

          • montanabill

            Do you think Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid or Chuck Schumer, or Corrine Brown, or even Barack Obama, are not radical? Both parties have people at the far ends. If you are a registered Republican, you must live in a northeastern state, where Republicans more closely identify with Democrat big government. Jeb will not run because he knows his last name will overcome his abilities. It is a shame, but just imagine for a minute that he was running this year and what the Obama campaign gang would be putting on him.
            Romney was certainly not my first choice for a Republican candidate, but I would vote an empty chair over Obama. I want the economy to come back, for the number of people in poverty to have a chance at a real job, for the middle class to be restored. Romney will reassure business and when that happens, the economy will come roaring back, even if Romney does nothing. If Obama is re-elected, the chances that this country will suffer an even greater economic collapse are extremely high.
            By the way, go to a tea party. You’ll be surprised.

          • jcbsdriver

            Nope, don’t live in a Northeastern state!! Your hitting all misses today! My husband and son have been reading the posts we’ve sent back and forth and they think you are hilarious. The choice of words you use at different times are very telling. I’m sorry to tell you, but they are not voting for Romney either.

          • montanabill

            As are your comments when you tell me you have been a Republican. Just out of curiosity, exactly what do you think Obama will try do to turn the economy around or what he will propose to reduce our national debt? Get your husband and son’s answers, too.

          • That’s not the impression I get of the Republican Party. When was the last time you read some of the comments posted on yahoo? I’ve seen minorities called names like monkeys, apes, cockroaches ,spics, oh and let’s not leave out the famous N word, some posters get creative and post it as “knee-grow”. This kind of activity DOES NOT match the statement you made. ” The Republican idea is that every single citizen has a right to as much freedom as possible ” Let’s not leave out the countless times Republican posters insinuate that minorities, particularly Blacks, make up the majority of the welfare and food stamp rolls, when any amount of research will tell you that in truth the majority of welfare and food stamp recipients are White. If the RNC gave you the opposite impression – they LIED.

          • montanabill

            Those are small minded bigots. Not unlike the gang of name callers that occupy this site. By the way, the Republicans will quickly acknowledge that black Americans are not the majority of food stamp recipients or Social Security disability claimants. The goal is to get social programs back to the point where they help people who really can’t help themselves or simply need short term assistance, and that is a small percentage of those on the programs today. If it becomes a way of life, as it is for far too many, then it helps no one.

          • Ibsyboy

            mo: There is no strategy. Everything the GOPers did not talk about, will be talked about by the Democrats and that’s a lot of stuff. This silly idea of yours that all Americans have an equal footing is nonsense. There is nothing hindering the dreams of America other than a slow recovering Economy. When taxes are higher, historically unemployment is lower. This constant drum beat by the GOP that lowering taxes on the wealthy creates jobs is Bullshit. We had the Bush Cuts. Obama agreed to extend them. We should be drowning in jobs according to the GOP promise. And why is it that whenever the GOP steps in their own pile of crap they always blame the stink on Obama. Losers.
            You entire comment is nonsense. It is GOP speak to make you think you know what your talking about. Your party are racists, homophobes, misogynists and unhappy people. What is the intent of a Food stamp President, don’t tell me that is not a subtle dog whistle.
            Rushes famous Puff the Magic Negro. Please spare me the feigned indignation of being called out on the divisiveness of race baiting your party is guilty of.

            Let me ask you. The Billionaires are putting up about a Billion Bucks to get rid of Obama. Do you really think they care about his social programs? No they don’t they are investing a Billion in the hopes the GOP will control the Government and reward them big time. The crap you spew about Obama means absolutely nothing to them. It gets them votes, you and the rest of the 80% of Americans are just votes and future cheap labor. Your missing the forest for the trees. The Corporatists are thrilled to have Romney in the White House. He is one of them, he knows what they want, and he will bust a hump getting it for them.

            Another question. Do you count your money in 20s, 10s, 5s, 1s and Change? If so, you mean absolutely nothing to Romney and the 1%. They have no idea of who you are, how you live, and what you think. They have fed you your beliefs. You have been doing all of the grunt work demonizing Obama. And if your reward is getting rid of Obama you been had cheap. That’s not going to change the situation in America. These guys you praise, they are out to loot the Country of every last dime. And you are ready to help them. Your legacy to your grand kids? Low wages, long hours, no benefits, there will be no Unions allowed to help them fight for a fair wage. You get what you’re given. So you can talk all you want about a level playing field. Those days are going to be over. That is not the intent of R&R. They belong to the Giant Money, not you. Your out in the cold my friend.

          • montanabill

            Sorry, I don’t subscribe to that vision and never have. I have never settled for ‘what I was given’, because, frankly, I wasn’t given anything except the freedom to fail or succeed. If you watched the Republican convention, you saw speaker after speaker tell their stories of starting with nothing or very little, then achieving. Maybe that is a different vision these days. If you think it is only the Republicans who have ‘billionaire’ buddies, you haven’t taken a look at Obama’s campaign. Politics and business haven’t changed regardless of which party is in power, just different faces. Seems to me that when you boil it down, the parties project two different visions: the Democrats want to help you stay mediocre, the Republicans want you to have the freedom to try to reach your dreams.

          • Ibsyboy

            I watched the GOP Convention. And I am still trying to figure out what the objective was behind the up from nothing stories being told by people who have gradually changed the playing field to eliminate that very possibility. The unemployed for instance, am I being convinced they all quit their jobs? Walmart. A great example of one Man’s success. It is thanks to the protection of the other up form nowhere GOPers. That Walmart can pay low wages, no benefits, can hand out Food Stamp application to part time workers, and direct people to Medicaid. May I asked if you received a public or private primary and secondary education. If one of those holds for you. You got an education compliments of your parents or the Government. That job yu may have had or still have, was given to yu by the employer in exchange for a salary. The freedom to succeed and fail is not a balanced scale. Never has been.
            It has nothing to do with Billionaire Buddies. It’s what the Billionaire Buddies are supporting. In the case of the GOP the Billionaire Buddies bought Tax Cuts and deregulation from the GOP. Who are still intent on giving more cuts and deregulation.
            What did the country get in return for this largesse? The crash of 2008. Massive unemployment, oh wait, I’m Sorry, massive amounts of people quitting their jobs.
            And now yu offer R&R. Two Supply Side Economic Disciples. They want a Mulligan for Trickle Down. It Failed why go there again. You point, well indoctrinated by the Right, that everyone is America should have a right to determine their futures, is just Racism behind a piece of fuzzy glass. And if your honest with yourself, you would admit that the people being spoken of are the Poor. Welfare recipients. And we all know they are all Negroes. They can’t be talking about the hard working people who have their shoulder to the wheel, day after day, and the wheel is not budging. If anything it is going backwards. Lower wages, longer hours, fewer benefits. Which is the case with the lucky Americans with jobs. The onion has many layers. Try peeling a little deeper. It’s the policies each sides Billionaires are prepared to support. The GOP has brought you supply side/trickle down. Trickle down has a gravity problem. It only trickles up. We were left with high unemployment and rising Poverty. And this is what you are suggesting we try again. Those up form the bottom stories told by the speakers of the GOP, were not experienced by them, they were the benefactors of someone else’s hard work. Back in the days when Unions got fair wages, over time pay, weekends off, 8 hour days, 5 day weeks. Now we are being offered Right to Work. Take it or leave it wages and hours. The Middle Class is in decline. Higher education is becoming less affordable for the children of the Working Class. R&R want to get rid of Pell Grants. And all you want is the freedom to succeed or fail. Well failing has become a cinch. It’s all around use. Look at the Millions who quit their good paying jobs to take less paying ones. There’s your freedom. Your working against you own best interests. Can’t stare people out of Poverty. You’re asking for a disastrous future for all America. If convincing you we don’t need help to get through life, well good luck with that outlook. Try swimming across the river next time, don’t use the bridge you didn’t build.

          • montanabill

            Decisions! That’s is what it was about. If you work at Walmart because you are a teenager working for extra money, a college student working for tuition/books etc., or a senior for SS supplement, that is one thing. If you are working there because you made a decision to quit school, have a baby without a father, do drugs, or not train for anything else, then you get what they offer. Walmart has no obligation to do anything else. Nor has any other business. Businesses are not in the business of creating jobs, they are in the business of creating profit, and if you don’t like what they offer, don’t work there.

            Exactly what is wrong with tax cuts or deregulation? Do you take a ‘deduction’ for your mortgage interest? Didn’t you take a ‘tax cut’, when your Social Security withholding was cut? Do you wish it was easier to put a tool shed in your back yard or open a stand selling fruit in your front yard? It is simply scale.

            If you have a job, thank trickle down. Stop and really think about it. Does money trickle up? Does money trickle from the middle up? If everyone is out of work and not getting any money, how does money trickle up? If your answer is that government should redistribute wealth by taxing the rich and giving to the poor so that it can trickle back up, how did the rich get it in the first place, since the poor didn’t have any to tickle up. People get really wealthy by providing something that a lot of people want. A small business making a profit of $10,000 a year will never get the owner wealthy, but someone who owns 100 of those businesses, will make a $1 million a year. What do they do with it?
            Do they put the money under the mattress? Or is it more likely they will buy things with it, including things that most people can’t afford. Every thing they buy was created by a business that employs people. They also now hire people to take of their needs: the lawn person, the house painter, the landscaper, etc. Then with money left over, again, do they put it under a mattress? No, they save it or invest it. Either way, that money goes back into the economy to grow more businesses which creates more jobs. The poor and middle class are limited in what they can buy, so they fund a much smaller number of businesses. They also don’t have much money to invest, so businesses that need growth money certainly won’t get it from them.

            What happened when unions got fair wages? It wasn’t enough. Union bosses had to continue to justify their existence, so they had to fight for ever higher wages, narrower job descriptions, extensive benefits. Each time they won, the price of the product their workers produced got higher. You know what finally happened.

            Pell grants and loans were not available when many of us went to college. We either had to have a family that could pay or we had to work our way through college. My family couldn’t afford it. So I worked. I didn’t get through in 4 years, or 5 years or 6 years. But I got through and even worked my way through graduate school. Boo hoo, for those who are too good to work their way through.

            It all gets back to decisions. Make a plan. Understand that there will be no instant gratification. Adjust when the inevitable glitch happens. But make the decisions necessary to reach whatever goal you desire. And don’t worry about life being fair.

          • Ibsyboy

            If you are working there because you made a decision to quit school, have a baby without a father, do drugs, or not train for anything else, then you get what they offer.
            In other words if you are poor, it’s your fault and this is all you deserve. man did you read this screed before you hit post? This is one of those classic veiled GOP racist comments the Right have become great at. You should be ashamed of your self by coming up with such a random silly observation of how you see poverty. The war against the Poor has joined the one against women. The Army of hate is growing by leaps and bounds. It’s hard to believe that an American adult is capable of writing something so ignorant as this.

            Oh my, an expert on why Unions now are of no use, the Bosses wanted more. So you are just fine with the future of low wages, longer hours and no benefits. You know nothing about Unions. My Sister and Nephew are lawyers for AFSCME and The Teamsters. If you think the Middle Class just popped up and came to be. You really are without a clue. A way of life in America, the ladder up has been slowly shortened, and you just sit by and tell me with your great intellectual knowledge as to how that happened and it had nothing to so with the employers able to get the Government to remove regulations so lower wages are acceptable, no benefits or pensions, all for a bigger bottom line. Why is it, that you think, the money makers have no responsibility to the Country other than pay a few bucks in taxes and reap the benefit of the sweat of the American Workers brow with out sharing the opportunity with them to climb up the ladder of success.. You have wiped out an entire portion of American History because it runs counter to the goals of the Party you support. And what is your reward for supporting this Party? A future of take it or leave it (as you put it) low wage jobs, no overtime pay, no weekends off, no paid vacations, no health benefits, no pension. The very foundation the Middle Class (A uniquely America thing) was built on. A nation of working poor, with a carrot on a stick “Arbeit macht frei” Work will set you free.

            This has got to be the all time lowest the GOP has stooped to. Deny the American Dream, make it harder, then blame the people who can not achieve it for their own failure. People in America , who educated themselves, worked hard, earned a liveable wage, bought a house raised their kids sent their kids to college, now here they are in an Ameirca which has no need for them. Their life style in danger of evaporating. And we have a GOP Convention that essentially blames them for their own hard luck. Why because they are looking for help to reinvigorate the America of Old when the Middle Class thrived. What an economic recovery plan. Oh, by the way, while we are at it. Let’s cut taxes on the wealthy job creators who have no intention of creating those old well paying jobs. There’s the ticket. Instant recovery. Don’t forget though, we have to get rid of Medicare, Medicaid and Welfare. We are going to need people who are willing to work for nothing. The Middle Class won’t take those jobs, so we will need cheap labor. Like those old dreaming working Class they will be willing to work low paying jobs for longer hours. As long as we keep telling them they too, can be rich someday some day. Yeah, right? Suckers.

          • montanabill

            It is not your fault if you are born poor. It is not your fault if you have a debilitating accident or illness. If you quit school, have a baby, do drugs or not get training for some trade, it is your fault.

            I grew up in a union family. My father was President of his Local. I do know about unions.

            The Republicans are hardly denying the American dream. They are celebrating it. They know it is what made America. If don’t think you can achieve the American dream without government giving a safety net, you will not achieve the American dream.

            As for getting rid of SS, Medicare, etc. Right now, the projections show that by 2045, just 33 years away, when today’s kids are in their prime working years, the entire, ENTIRE, income of the government will be spent on those programs.
            Maybe the Republican plans aren’t perfect, but they are offering plans. The Democrats are afraid to even offer a budget, let alone offer options on SS or Medicare. So far, the only actions have been to divert money from Medicare for Obamacare and give the middle class a ‘tax break’ by further starving SS.

          • Ibsyboy

            If that is so, why the necessity to have the Unions fight for a liveable wage, weekends off, paid Holidays, the end of Child labor, paid vacation, pension funds, health benefits. Why did the Unions waste all that time to help create a prior non existing new class of American workers. The Middle Class, the new Class of people who spawned a whole new generation of well educate, imaginative people who contributed to making America the envy of the World. A brand new class of Citizen. The Middle Class a true American unique idea. The back bone of our Nation, the stop gap against a government that wanted to remove or deny other citizens chances of get a step up the ladder of success. Now that the Middle Class in in decline your type of thinking is becoming the norm. Everything is the fault of the under class, women, Liberal’s, Obama, welfare, Medicare, SS.

            The projections also include the reduction of revenue the US is experiencing from the tax cuts to those who once contributed a lot more to the success of America. Funny how they are not suffering from the 2008 Crash. The Stock market since Obama took office went from, 6000 to 13,000. Corporate profits have gone up, we have more Billionaires than ever, and we are in a slow economy. An economy enjoyed by the perpetrators of the Crash. And the GOP thinks they deserve an other tax cut as a reward.. Why does history indicate unemployment is lower when the top tax rates are higher. We don’t have just a deficit problem, we have a revenue problem. It there were more people working more would be going into the SS trust fund.

            You can eliminate all the entitlement programs, it will not be enough if you are cutting revenues at the same time. You are being had by this BS line of thinking. You come cheap, if this is all it takes for the GOP to get your vote. Blaming the under class for the problems of the Country is ironic when you are part of the underclass yourself. You don’t actually believe the 1%,of which Romney is a part of, cares about you.
            You have 2 things they want, your vote (which loses its value on Nov.6th) and your willingness to work for lower wages, no benefits and no healthcare. You’re cheap labor to Mitt and friends. Why do you think they only offer solutions which punish Americans. They have gone inside of your head to that area of discontent and convinced you that Welfare, Medicare and Obama are the sole causes of your discontent. They don’t give a rats butt about those issues. They prove it by not telling you what their solutions are other than cuts on programs for people they have convinced you to dislike. And tax cuts for the winners of the 2008 Crash.

          • montanabill

            Rather than go into long detail on the unions, a simple response is to compare the number of union members today or even 10 years ago, to the number of non-union workers in the middle class. It is a very small percentage and certainly not enough to influence how non-union shop workers are treated.

            Your information on tax revenue is wrong. The wealthy today are paying for a much greater percentage of government than ever. Why? Because nearly half the population is paying nothing. The only way to get the rich back to paying the percentage they once did, would be to raise taxes on the poor and middle class, otherwise, raising their taxes would increase their share above the 70% they are paying now. Now do a little math on the deficit/debt problem. The figures concerning income from different income classes are easily available from government web sites. Start raising taxes on the rich, say to the levels the President is proposing. Like most Democrats, you will ignore the fact that you are now taking money out of the economy, but that’s alright. How would the new revenue impact our deficits? Oh oh! Look’s like we need the rich to pay an even bigger ‘fair share’, so let’s go back to Eisenhower rates, and of course, not allow the deductions that really impacted what the effective tax rate was. Now the rich are paying well over 90% of the taxes, but dang, we haven’t even significantly cut the deficit, and debt is still growing at a steep curve. Now what? We know we don’t have a spending problem. So we need more revenues, but we are already taking over 90% of the income of the rich, so who do we tax now?
            Of course, by this time it is closer to 2044 when the GAO says that all the income being received by the government at current rates will have to go to paying SS and Medicare. But the new revenue from taxing the rich didn’t even stop our current deficit spending, let alone bolster funds available for SS and Medicare. But never mind, we have a revenue problem, not a spending problem. Maybe the Chinese will lend us some more revenue.

          • Ibsyboy

            You conveniently side step the effect reforms have on a society at large. Unions fought for a liveable wage, no child labor, weekends off, 8 hour days, a 5 day work week, benefits, paid vacations, health benefits, pensions. All of these things became standard practices for Union and Non Union businesses. To answer that question of Non Union Middle Class workers. The Unions set a new standard adopted by industries and businesses. Today we have 24/7 businesses. 7 day work weeks, no overtime, no benefits, no pensions. Walmart hands out food stamp applications to their part time employees, Government subsidies for Walmart. The wages are going down the hours are going up. That is not a formula to sustain the Middle Class in to the years to come. You guys come up with a strategy to blame some one to get your agenda across. Because nearly half the population is paying nothing. What a sack of BS. Every wage owner in America pays taxes. Payroll tax, sales tax, state income tax, gasoline tax. That canard of half paying no taxes is so disingenuous it’s laughable. If you guys spent half the time you do laying blame, on doing something constructive you would be surprised how much more love you could garner for the American public.
            Constantly looking for whom to blame. It’s the Poor, Women, Teachers, Union, Entitlements, the Poor, Welfare, caring Liberals, FDR, regulations, Planned Parenthood, the Poor, Liberals, Atheists, Socialists, Jews, Negroes, Immigrants. The lit is endless. Never a finger pointing back at yourselves. The GOP the blameless Party of America, They only true Patriots. Bah!!!

          • montanabill

            You know exactly which taxes I’m talking about when I say that nearly half are not paying. In fact, the majority of the taxes in America are hidden taxes and disproportionately hit the poor and the middle class, but it is not those taxes that fund the Federal budget. Ever play the lottery? That, my friend, is the perfect example of a tax on the very people you delineate. Do you think the rich play the lottery?
            By the way, guess what Walmart would do, if people no longer chose to work for them and accept their conditions?

          • Ibsyboy

            I am just a tad annoyed with the broad statement that almost half of Americans pay no taxes. Even if you were to be specific and say federal income tax, but that part is generally left out of this point of view when expressed. I have yet to completely understand the point of the 1/2 don’t pay statement. can you illuminate me on why that statement is used, and what point it is intended to make?

          • montanabill

            You are correct, the statement should correctly state that almost half of the country’s adults pay no taxes on their income. It is generally assumed that most people understand the correct connotation. It is used for two purposes. 1) if you are not paying income taxes, then you are being supplemented in the operation of the country by those that do. In fact, a great many of those people are receiving income as a form of welfare, derived from income earners who do pay taxes. Why would they ever vote for anyone who might require more of them. 2) the current rate of spending is on the verge of putting this country in a position where debt service will consume a very much larger amount of our tax money requiring significant cuts to defense, government services, education, foreign affairs and the numerous welfare programs. I am not even considering Medicare and Social Security since those are supposedly contribution programs. However, since the collected money was borrowed by the government, it is income tax money that has to repay these programs and that money will also not be available.
            I’m sure you have done the math so that you know that there is no possible way to tax the rich, even at 100%, to cover the deficit spending or begin to pay down the debt. That leaves the only other group on the hook for higher and higher taxes, the remaining 40%, or the middle class, that do pay taxes.
            In summary:

            “The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”

            – Thomas Jefferson

            “The American Republic will endure until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.”

            – Anonymous

          • Ibsyboy

            So it’s not about not paying federal income tax it’s having someone else pay it for you. Why don’t you guys just simplify your message. You hate people who have not been as successful as yourselves and you are tired of having to carry them any longer.

            I get it. You don’t like the idea that someone is getting something for nothing. So the payroll tax is not a tax. But I think your talking about or alluding to those lazy ass Negroes on Welfare, food stamps and Medicaid. Just admit it. Your party opened a Pandora’s box of contempt toward the less fortunate knowing that the presumption is that all welfare and food stamp recipients are lazy ass Negroes. It’s a tactic which has worked remarkably well with the Right’s base, but not so much with the broader society. You guys are coming off like a bunch of racists. Lower taxes for the rich, and then cut all programs which benefit the less fortunate, but wait that doesn’t sound right, you may have thought at some point in your life, but, don’t forget who those less fortunate are, non-tax paying, welfare, food stamp, medicaid using lazy ass Negroes. Ah, that’s right, forgot about that. Yes, I see now. Cutting programs for the less fortunate is not such a bad idea now.

            This constant building of a case against the Poor and less fortunate has taken on an aura of sadness, in the delight people like your self get out of making your point as you have tried in this recent comment. It’s all GOP speech, a rationale and cover up of the real issue. Negroes. People of color. The “lazy; get a job” schtick, is loud and clear in it’s camouflaged intent.

            I suspect you will get upset with this comment of mine, and you will blame me for playing the race card, because you never mentioned Negroes at all. It’s called subtext and the subtext of the Right’s position on programs for the less fortunate is quite clear.
            Those damn lazy welfare queens, and lazy ass Negro men and their brood of children.
            Sucking on the teat of tax payer money. Damn them for being Poor. Your solution? Starve them out of Poverty. Very fitting solution for contemptuous, self loathing people to have.

            You’re on the wrong side of the issues and you support a Party that has historically been on the wrong side of issues. You need to stand back and look at the world view you have been encouraged to have. It’s full of anger, contempt, negativity, pessimism, low self esteem, and at times hatred. It can’t possibly be a happy way of going through the day convinced you are right in blaming everyone else for your frame of mind.

            You really do need to stand back and study your belief system. I am not suggesting mine is right for you. I just think you need to stand back and ask yourself why there is so much anger and contempt in your world view. Be honest with yourself and those you are trying to convince; let it out in your own words not GOP speak. I think you will feel better, and no one will be offended if it’s not a nice opinion. You have a right to speak your mind. As a Liberal am not under an constriction to say what I want about the Right and my dislike for their social issues positions. I don’t concern my self with offending anyone. You shouldn’t either. I’d love to hear how you talk when your with your like minded friends. I doubt is is so nicely spelled out as your unconvincing comment I am responding to.

          • montanabill

            Something truly wrong is coloring your view, if for even one minute, you think any of my comments or positions have a single thing to do with race. For the record, I am a fiscal conservative, but not a social conservative. I generally vote Republican because their stance is closer than the Democrats in terms of individual responsibility, which, incidentally, is what the founders of this country believed in. It was also the engine that created the wealthiest, most powerful nation on earth. The envy of the rest of the world and the place whose freedoms lured immigrants from every corner of the world. Not for one minute do I believe that the poor in this country would trade places with the poor in any other country. This country has always been the land of opportunity for those that wanted to pursue it. It now appears that too many are willing to give their freedoms to a government that promises to make life better for them without them having to do the hard work of creating that life on their own. And since black Americans do not constitute 50% of our population, that is hardly a racist sentiment.

          • Ibsyboy

            Don’t take it so personally. I am only asking why the sub text of the GOP anti-social safety net always alludes to a subgroup in the United States. I have a neighbor who shares the sentiment of the GOP posture on Welfare, Food Stamps and Medicaid. It’s all one big hand out to him. Lazy ass “Ns” milking the system. The very nature of the object in the line of fire of the GOP and the cuts they intend to make is not lost for one second on my neighbor. He totally understands the thrust of the anti social safety net issue being put forth by the Right. He gets it completely. Not be cause he is an overt racists, but because the dog whistle and the red meat do not escape his views on the socio-economic position of the GOP. It surprises me that the subtlety is lost on you. The signals that are oh so clear to my neighbor. I asked him what they were talking about. Without hesitation, the “Ns.” Reagan’s Welfare Queen, Gingrich’s Food Stamp President. None of it got by him or was misunderstood as some political point of view. He got it. “It’s those f**king “Ns.” We have been carrying them for way too long.”

            Now I have to admit, not everyone is as honest as my neighbor, but I can not believe that the people on the right are that naive, that the sub text of these GOP remarks are completely lost on them. For get about race for a minute. Look at is as a cultural war. The “haves” are pissed off at having to carry the have nots. And the notion of the “have nots” as lazy ass people who are just gaming the system. That is less Racist in content, but no less biased and bigoted. It is using a cultural under tow to advance a political position. So you have to forgive people who have a sensitivity to race as seeing it essentially as a Racist campaign against the less fortunate. It is the cross liberals have chosen to bear. A responsibility for the unfortunate among us. Are there scammers? Yes, but the GOP wants to throw the baby out with the bath water. Makes no sense that an American would suggest such a thing. Hits a nerve with Liberals. The rhetoric which follows or precedes the comments from the right, make for an easy target for Racist complaints by the Left.

          • montanabill

            Not very many are as biased as your neighbor either, and don’t try to tell me there aren’t equally biased Democrats. The campaign is not one of the have’s against the have not’s. That is the DNC narrative. The Republican goal is create an economy that allows the have not’s to become have’s. More have’s means that the cost of our government is shared by more people. People with money will buy more goods and services. That is the goal of the Republicans. Does it make any sense to you that supposedly money grubbing, stingy Republicans really want to bear 70% or more of the cost of government or have a population that can’t afford to buy anything beyond necessities? As the saying goes, you can’t blood out of a turnip. If people don’t have any money, they won’t be paying taxes and will probably be receiving tax paid goodies decreasing the country’s ability to pay for the things that benefit all of us. The Republicans want them paying taxes and that means they must have decent paying private sector jobs. The Democrats want more people getting goodies or working for government, because they know that people on the receiving end will not vote against themselves, even at the expense of freedom.

          • Ibsyboy

            The Haves and the Have Nots goes back to feudal days. It’s an age old narrative when a small group of people control the mass of the wealth. Never works out in the end, the peasants, even those who agreed with the benevolent Lords joined in to bring down the oppressors.
            So if the populace had more money they could buy more goods and services. ANd when they don’t have money no consumption. Well, seems we need a jobs bill or a jobs stimulus.

            The Democrats don;t want people getting m,ore goodies, why do that, why say something you made up to be witty and cleaver and present it a s fact. Why do you do that? The GOP has the army of people who vote against their own interests,such as yourself. Your an apologist for a Party that has no sense of where the right place to stand is. They historically have been on the wrong side of every issue. Always, if I may repeat my self. I’d be happy to be proven wrong.

            It is not hard to condemn a group of people who have lost their way. Reduce your revenue, then hope the beneficiaries of the cuts do the right thing, how naive is that thinking. Where are the guarantees the Job Creators will create jobs, there are no guarantees available, the GOP would never think of telling the wealthy what to do with their money. Hedge funds here comes an oil tanker full of cash ready to be invested in a get rich quick scam. Job Creation? What risk my money on the underclass. We haven’t raised wages since the 70s, why start now. Corporate profits are as historic levels why invest in Jobs? The Dow is at 13,000 (damn that Obama) why waste our money on Job Creation. We’re doing great by doing nothing. What fool would risk his money on Job Creation when they can turn their money in to more money through hedge funds and other barely legal scams. The Job Creator nonsense is just that, nonsense.

          • montanabill

            Haves and Have Nots is a human condition. It goes back far farther than feudal days. And at no time in history, under any political or social condition, has it been any different.
            You are right about the populace being able to buy more goods and services if they had more money. The argument is about how to go about getting more money. In that regard, the government is no different than a family. If you go get a loan and use the money to buy a car, house and food, you are buying more goods and services. But how are you going to pay that loan back? Not only do you have to pay the principal back, but now you have to pay interest that has just made everything you bought that much more expensive. You can’t simply go get a even bigger loan to pay back the first loan, so a job is the only answer. You are hoping that your buying of goods and services with your loan will create jobs. It might. But when all the borrowed money is spent and the money from your job is now being used to pay the loan and principal, the people creating goods and services will no longer be selling and you’ll be laid off again. Only this time, in bigger debt.
            The capitalist model works much better. An entrepreneur gets capital, either from investors or from loans. He hires workers and builds a product. The workers now have money to buy things, as long as they aren’t paying it back for stuff they bought earlier or losing it to taxation. The more money they have available to buy goods and services, the more new entrepreneurs pop up to hire more people and produce new products.
            That is exactly how America was built. And if we want to stay a great country, it is the model to which we have to return.

          • montanabill

            A couple of further points, the Dow is a measure of gambling fever, not the economy. You are condemning millions of real job creators and dismissing them over the actions of a few. And the reason corporations are not expanding is simple. They are afraid of the President’s policies based on his actions and rhetoric. It is easy enough to expand when the time is right, but difficult to contract built up infrastructure when things go sour. The business climate looks really iffy to most of us, so we’ll save the money until it quits raining.

          • Ibsyboy

            My neighbor is not overtly biased. He is like your self, he has a deep rooted dislike for people getting something for what he perceives as for nothing. He feels comfortable enough with me to be honest about his feelings, because I suggested to him, as I do to many Righties who skirt the race issue, to let go and speak freely.
            The success of the GOP’s move on safety net programs has been based on this psychological method via dog whistles and red meat tossing, of stirring these deep seated feelings that are very easily seen as race baiting. And, that applies due to the conception held by many people that Welfare has a black face. Racism is not a sin of great repentance, it is a human trait, held by every society on earth. I have no problem with the person who, as my self, sees a Negro coming down the street, not just another person. It’s part of who many of us are. What bothers me are people like Newt Gingrich, a highly intelligent man, making a statement like; Food Stamp President, Newt is fully aware of how that is going to be perceived, that is the sole intent of those specific choice of words. Newt is a student of psychological manipulation. He is the man who turned, the word Liberal in to a demonic word for the Right. Case in point, take the word Liberal. When used by the Right Wing, it defines a philosophy as one being, soft on Crime, free spending, bleeding heart, anti American, Socialists, Apologists for America. That is what the word Liberal in some way shape or form has become to the Right Wing. As much as Right Wing means, to the Left, Mostly White, no compassion, lack of empathy, hate women, the poor and immigrants.

            So maybe race is too strong, and it should be cultural. There is a disdain for the underclass with in the GOP. If they were to say we need to help the poor, with out all of the buzz words and dog whistles, the success of their drive to get rid of the Great Society would not thoroughly succeed. No more than the effort to defeat the Right by pointing out the apparent lack of empathy. That dreaded word, so labored over by the Right to turn it in to a sign of weakness. Why was that necessary? It was an appealing word to to many people and had to be squashed before it took affect. The affront to me is the suitableness of the dog whistles, they are used for specific effect. In and of themselves Food Stamps are just that, Food Stamps. Used with a touch of vitriol, Food Stamps becomes a clarion call. With all of those nasty implications.

            Poverty is an ancient problem. If the GOP were to address the root cause of Poverty and not this off with it head approach, there would, or could be a mutual method available ot both Parties to address the problem of Poverty, turn away from a cultural and ethnic issue, back to a societal problem which needs both sides engaged in dealing with it. The Poor can not be starved out of Poverty. That has failed over the centuries. Paying them to essentially stay in Poverty doesn’t work either. But there is no way around financial assistance. No extreme method will work. It’s a very complex problem. Jesus simplified it by tell us we were responsible for the Poor, he did not include any responsibility on the part f the Poor. He saw it as a problem for the rich and well off, not for the Poor, to solve. And that still holds true today.

          • montanabill

            It looks to me like you are missing the right’s message. The message I hear from the right, is that they do want to address the root of poverty. That is a lack of jobs, poor quality of education, and programs that encourage dependency instead of programs to reduce it.
            I don’t agree that people on the right are less empathetic. Survey after survey have shown that they give more to charity and involve themselves personally more than those on the left, who seem to prefer the less hands-on approach by supporting more government programs.
            The difference between the left and right seems to fall back to the old proverb: the left would rather toss a hungry man a fish, the right would rather teach him to fish.
            I also know that the poor do bear some responsibility for staying poor. I was there. There are still families in my old neighborhood that are still there, 60 years later. We all had the same advantages (or disadvantages, if you like). Some of us decided it was not where we wanted to be. Every one of that group made it out. Those that thought it couldn’t done, or that it was too hard, or thought they simply couldn’t buck the system, are still there.

            Re: food stamps. In Jan 2008, there were 27.7 million receiving monthly food stamps. Now there are nearly 47 million receiving monthly food stamps and the government is running advertising encouraging people to sign up. There is no way that is not a clear attempt to create dependency. “toss them a fish”

          • Ibsyboy

            Then why,. may I ask do they intend to cut education, the Right is set on getting rid of the Department of Education. Education is 3% of the Budget. Any attempt by Obama to increase it gets blocked. School boards across America controlled by the GOP go right to Education cuts, when the Municipal government is mismanaged. Its always at the top of the GOP cut list.

            I recall when Obama used the word empathy he got hell to pay from the right for using a wussy word like empathy. The Right thought it indicated weakness.

            Charity is not empathy, that’s sympathy. Big difference.

            Yeah teach him to fish, then charge him what he ain’t got for the tackle.

            How do the poor bear responsibility for being Poor. That’s one of those old canards of the right. Blame the victim.

            Were the people in your neighborhood living in Poverty or were they Poor. Again Big Difference.

            So with the large number of unemployed people in the country, most are running on empty, so they turn to Food Stamps. The Government is enticing them to grow to like being out of work and poor. That is the most out of this world thing I have ever heard. All those working class and Middle class people who are getting food stamps have found a new life style through the persuasiveness of the Government. Sorry but your nuts.

            These unemployed people are desperate, they are not being tossed a fish. There are no fish to catch. They are your neighbors, your fellow Americans, and you use them to make a point for your fantastic “give them a Fish” anecdote. Please spare me.

            Man if only the world was a simple as you see it. Just jump over the complications and teach em to fish. Wow. God Bless you for the care free world view you have.

            Sorry, but it sounds, cruel, selfish and totally lacking in compassion.
            It’s ideological thinking of the worst kind. It lacks sensus communis and thought.
            It’s a practiced belief. No humanity whatsoever. Folk Medicine.

          • montanabill

            There have been calls to eliminate the Dept. of Education and the Dept. of Energy, simply because, for the money they consume, they provide little or no benefit.
            As usual, you are misstating the Republican position. The Republicans want a school system that works. They want teachers to live by the same standards that all other employees face. Do the job or find a new profession. Given the money we have thrown at education, there is absolutely no reason why our kids can’t read, write, do arithmetic, know history, understand civics or reason. It wasn’t always this way. Home schooled kids don’t have all the resources available to kids in public schools, yet are infinitely better educated.

            Government should not be in the business of empathy. That is our job. I shouldn’t have to explain why we should be afraid of a government feigning empathy, but if you need it, I will.

            My childhood neighborhood was the poorest in town with all of us living in or near poverty, day to day. The poor bear the responsibility of staying poor. Unless you are born with a severe impediment, have a debilitating accident or incur a truly severe medical condition, there is no, I repeat, NO, reason to stay in poverty. This country was built by immigrants that arrived with maybe a few clothes and very little, if any, money. If they used the excuses in play today, all of us would still be poor, living in poverty, the kind of poverty seen in the third world, not here.

            I’ll spare you the fish story when you recognize that is exactly what is going on in our country. It is ok to help feed someone while you teaching them to fish, but if all you are doing is handing out fish, which is all we are doing today, then you have enslaved them.

            The world is not simple, but unfortunately, you can’t get through to people who haven’t been educated. Romney posted a 52 point plan to regain the economy on his web site. According to the ‘experts’, that’s 49 points more that the average American can understand or pay attention to. Ryan put forth a plan proposing a way to save Medicare. Instead of reading it or discussing its merit or shortcomings, it was simply demonized. And demonized by those who hadn’t taken the time to read or understand it, or didn’t want people like you to even consider thinking about it. It is exactly why people are voting for or against bumper sticker slogans, not real people.

            If all that sounds mean, selfish and totally lacking in compassion, then you aren’t really paying attention. Which is more compassionate, enslaving with entitlements or promoting self-reliance? The President makes the argument: ‘We are all in this together’ versus ‘You’re on your own”. Actually, it is not an either/or. Both are true and government should get out of the way and let us get on with it, understanding that there will never be equality in any aspect of life, but with an opportunity and the freedom to act, you can have a lot of control over the outcome.

          • Ibsyboy

            And what ideology has made that determination re: Dept. of Ed. and energy. That totally impartial party the GOP. As though there is not another well researched opinion which disagrees. But, wait consider the source of that opposition it’s that totally impartial Democratic Party. That doesn’t count because we have made up our minds they have to go. Your self delusion and pathetic attempt to apologize for a Party that has historically been on the wrong side of everything. The GOP is still fighting FDR. He and Truman were that lasts Presidents to win a real war. Both DEMs. Both met with obstructiinist GOPers. Eisenhower the last real President the GOP had, refused to buy in to Supply Side. The top tax rate, which we refused to cut, was 91%.
            Unemployment was 3%. He also expanded Social Security. If he was around to day you would peg him as a RHINO. You have destroyed the value of the Grand Old Party. The Party of Lincoln. With the help of the Teahadist Party the GOP is essentially the first modern 3rd Party in America. A very thin version of Eisenhower’s Party. William F. Buckley would be a RHINO. Conservatism is long gone in America, replaced by a selfish, jealous, mean tempered group of people who are constantly angry about nothing, and constantly stepping in a big pile of their own shit and then blaming the stink on Obama. The self loathing is pathetically sad. Always defending indefensible positions. Contraception, what a giant job creating issue to spend time and money on.
            The wrong side of an issue once again . Well, they are good at failing so why do Liberals even try? Romney is a stiff, Ryan is a Punk who can’t control his lying.
            They will need something to fall back on when they lose, like that big pile of cash they both have. But, please get the hell out of Politics. The GOP constantly provides us with fuck ups.

          • montanabill

            The Dept of Energy was created in 1973 and tasked with lessening our dependence on foreign oil. Since it failed miserably at that task, instead of abolishing DoE, it was given additional duties, mainly running our national nuclear laboratories, and of all things, control of our nuclear weapons, which they loan to the Defense Dept. Other than serve as a paper pushing hub, everything they do could be handled in a far more direct manner.
            The only thing useful that the Dept of Ed does is the distribution of financial aid. As with all government programs, it has created a nightmarish array of paperwork, formulas, rules and regulations mostly resulting in thwarting its mission. Everything else this department does is strictly boondoggle work.

            The rest of your post is partisan rant containing 1% truth to 99% bull gas.

          • Ibsyboy

            Run out of prefabbed notes and answers. Or, the subjects haven’t come up yet on FOX?

            Your telling me that due to the Oil Company Giants owning the GOP, prevented the Dept. of Energy from doing anything. I already knew that. Everyone knows that.

            Your telling me the constant cuts and prevention of legislation by the GOP made it difficult for the Dept. of Education to do its job. I already knew that. Everyone knows that.

            How about something every one doesn’t know.

            Boondoggle, nice choice of an old GOP crap word. That is one place and can give kudos to the GOP, the clever old timey words they use to avoid going into details.
            It obviously impressed you to bring it out of moth balls, unless I missed something on Rush’s show yesterday.

          • montanabill

            Yep, the oil company giants owning the GOP stopped the Dept of Energy from doing anything, especially just after it was created under Carter, and under the Bushes, who were both domestic oil people, Clinton and his Democrat Congress, and Obama and his Democrat Congress. But then, everybody knows that.
            Pretty much the same people stopped the Dept. of Education too. But everybody knows that too. You are right, boondoggle might be too nice a word to describe the make-work assigned to the DoEd. But then I grew up in the days before cursing was allowed on the airwaves, so I didn’t get the habit.

          • Ibsyboy

            Why are you so ill informed, but seriously, why are you so angry/bitter. You do realize you have spent nearly 4 years of your life trying to nail Obama. What climbed up your butt when you were a kid? The people I know personally who spout the same line of thinking, as you, are always pissed off. When I have been able to get them to stop and think where the anger comes from they don’t know. But, they are always looking for an out let for it. And Obama fit’s the bill. Another question I put to them. Why Obama? They eventually admit they don’t know. Only that they don’t like the guy. Honest conclusion at least. And by the way, they have used the identical arguments you put forth.

          • montanabill

            Why Obama??? A man with absolutely no qualifications to be President, other than he was old enough. None of the real life experiences that the average man in the street would have. No understanding of American history because that is not taught in Indonesia or Hawaii. No record of accomplishment other than some titles that we weren’t allow to look behind. Raised by communist centric adults. A history of friendships with communists and radicals. Associations and dealings with the likes of Tony Rezko. Continuous rhetoric full of contradictions with an emphasis on ‘I’. And all that was before he was elected by people who had no idea who or what he really was. Since then, he has for four years confirmed our fears about his capabilities. Why Obama???

            Obama is a likeable guy and I don’t dislike him, but I am not voting for someone just because they are likeable. I want the best qualified guy of our two choices. Obama continues to show, day in and day out, that he is not a leader and doesn’t learn from his mistakes. His Presidency is still all rhetoric and ‘I’.

          • Ibsyboy

            Why Romney. A man born with a silver spoon in his mouth. An man who does not understand people who count thier money in 20s, 10s, 5s, 1s and change, a man who headed a Private Equity firm. One of the most ruthless business models ever created. Extracting profits from bankrupt companies, by forcing the company to takeout loans to pay management and investors, then go out of business. An awful way to make money. Shipping jobs overseas to increase the managements earnings. A man who picked an atheist as his VP. A guy who “struggled while in College” having to use the money invested for him and his wife, by their respective families. A man who has cutting taxes for the wealthy at the top of his “to do” list. And the pending possibility of being lead by the nose by Netanyahu in to a war with Iran. A man who surrounds himself with 17 of Bushes advisers including NeoCons itching for war with Iran. A man who will not reveal his tax returns A man with money hidden in the Cayman Islands. Just an every day regular guy. A guy who believes in Supply Side Economics. A proven failed economic model. A man whose grandfather fled to Mexico so he could have multiple wives. A father born in Mexico, who never solidified his citizenship in the USA. A man borne of a non American Father. A man whose biggest achievement, Romney Care, is now something he doesn’t want to talk about. A man who dares to go on TV to politicize and criticize people who are trapped in an Embassy in Egypt, while 4 Americans lie dead in Libya. A man with no experience or qualifications to be POTUS. Private Equity is not a real job. It’s a scam. It’s navigating through the laws of the land in search of unadulterated profit taking. His campaign is all smoke and mirrors, not one specific other than lowering taxes for his friends. The guy is without a doubt one of the worse candidates the GOP has ever offered the American people. Karl Rove has a fund raiser at the RNC in Tampa, he never mentions Mitt as part of his money grubbing pitch. The GOP has never been on the correct side of any issue in so long, it’s ancient history. Only found in the dark caves of the GOP long undistinguished history of Me, Me, Me Politics. Why Romney? He’s not Obama. What a way to choose a candidate. Don’t like great beer, well then, buy a case of cheap Bud and call it beer. Who will know the difference. As long as it is not the better beer.

          • montanabill

            That is a rant out of far left loon land. Won’t even try to discourse on something so idiotic.

          • Ibsyboy

            Now why doesn’t that surprise me. Reality scares the shit out of you. You’re so unaccustomed to it. These are the realities of life under the Mittster, the GOPers and Teahadists. I can’t believe you don’t see it. This guy is not one of us. He is from that ratified air of Wealthdom. The are super wealthy people who are putting up nearly a Billion to get Romney elected.

            If you think they are after Obama for all of the lame reasons you post. Then you are not paying attention. That near Billion is buying Mitt’s promise to lower taxes, deregulate everything in their way. The Kochs and Shelton Adelson, don’t give a fuck; whether he was born in the USA, or he’s a Muslim, or a Socialist, or Anti- American, they want him out because they can’t buy him. He is an impediment to their raping America for the last dollar it has. You and folks like yourself have spent nearly 4 years trying to discredit Obama. You spent nearly 4 years doing the grunt work f0r people who look at you as they would gum on the bottom of their shoe.
            Reality check: You only have 2 things of value to them: your vote, and cheap labor. That’s it Ducky. And after November 6th, it goes down to 1 thing. Cheap Labor.
            You are part of the underclass. That 80% of America that controls 7% of the financial wealth of America. You can’t buy much influence with 7% of America’s financial wealth. But the remaining 93%, belonging to 20% of America, can buy just about anything they want. Mostly more wealth. Again, why are the Wealthy treated so well, and the rest of us like peasants?

          • montanabill

            You want reality? You started your rant with, ‘born with a silver spoon in his mouth’, which you clearly intended to imply was something bad. Romney wasn’t born dirt poor, but he wasn’t born fabulously rich either. If being born well-off is a disqualifier, then neither Franklin Roosevelt or John Kennedy could have been President. They were both far better off than the Romneys. One of our wealthiest Presidents was our first President, George Washington.

            You then went on to demonize his history, which I might add what you wrote indicates you personally haven’t really investigated it. The rant then proceeded to demonize equity funding companies. Again, you know little to nothing about the industry in general, how it works, or Bain, in particular.

            Above, you are pouring out a load of half-baked conclusions based on other demonizations you have heard or read, not based on real information.

            If you don’t like being part of your ‘underclass’, change it. This is America and every single day people make that change, even in this economy. It won’t be the rich holding you back.

          • Ibsyboy

            Silver spoon. It’s a good thing for those who were lucky enough to get that leg up. The silver spoon is an advantage others don’t get. Particularly the 47% who mooch off the Government.

            Why do you care about people who don’t care about you. Being rich is not a
            disqualifier. It’s how you look and act towards those not as lucky as you. Romney is an Elitist. I’ll say it again, if you count your money in 20s, 10s, 5s, 1s, and change he has no Idea who you are. He said it himself re: the 47%. “I can’t worry about them.” So I take it if he were to be President, he would only work for the other 53%. Well that’s reassuring.

            FDR, JFK, Washington. Good choices. Men who did not rule through their wealth, but for the benefit of their country. It is possible to be rich AND patriotic. Just like the men and women who, come from poverty, serve their country in War, the Poor are patriotic, too.

            I don’t know a lot about South American Drug Cartel’s, I am sure they have their defenders too, I’ don’t like drug dealers them.

            I don’t like having a foot on my neck. Or denied opportunity. Voter ID. If the policies of the GOP are so rock solid winners for the USA. Why do they have to work so hard to sell it. And why do they have to blow dog whistles and toss red meat. The subtle bigotry is not lost on people who have been victimized by it. Obviously not you, yet!

            I still don’t like being called a moocher because I vote for Obama, collect SS and use Medicare. I am part of the 47%. Why is he demonizing me and the other folks who rely on Government services. Vets, College Students, the Elderly. Why come down on us to raise money. Sure sit in a room full of Millionaire GOPers an get them to applaud at the real problem in America. The Poor, the Elderly, the Vets, College Students, Mothers and their children. It amazes me how he and you can so casually toss a large segment of the population under the bus to advance a political agenda.

            Look you call Obama a Socialist because he read a book. His not an American because his father was Kenyan. He’s not one of us because he is a Negro.

            Romney’s grandfather went to Mexico, so he could keep his 5 wives, if I use the GOP formula, that makes Romney a non American and a Polygamist. he got out of serving in Vietnam because he went to France for the LDS. Again using the GOP Formula, he is a draft dodger. Again, using the GOP Formula, he is a privileged, Elitist with 2 degrees from that Left Wing Harvard University, therefore he is a Leftist. Guilt by association is not the way you judge people. But for nearly 4 years you and the Right Wing have been doing just that to Obama.

          • montanabill

            Do you honestly think for one minute that Obama cares about you any more than you think Romney does? You are a vote. The simple act of removing the requirement that work goes with welfare shouts loud and clear that Obama wants to buy votes. He wants and advertises for more people to get on food stamps. Why? He wants dependable voters. He hasn’t done a single thing to encourage self reliance. It is all about government will take care of you.

            Why does the GOP have to work to sell its policies? It is hard to convince people getting stuff that was taken from other people to vote against that.

            As I pointed out in another post, Romney was talking about the 47% eligible for the work force that are not paying income tax. Anyone still in school or retired would not be part of that. I think he was a little wrong, because I suspect a number of the 23 million unemployed right now, would really like a job and they might want it bad enough to vote for a person who can restart the economy rather than one who will continue to run it down.

            I did not call Obama a socialist. I simply pointed out he was raised and mentored by communists, sought out communist leaning professors, sought out communist and radial friends and associated with some pretty unsavory people. He also appointed some of those to positions in his government. Fair or not, most people judge others by their associations.

            I make no judgement on his citizenship since I don’t have any first hand knowledge of his birth. If Hawaii says he was born there, I accept it.

            He is not one of us? We are the first Americans, Europeans, Jews, Africans, Orientals, Asians, Arabs, Persians, Indians, Polynesians and more. Negroes were a part of this country before there was a country, both free and slave.

            Now that you mention it, virtually everyone coming from Harvard is pretty elitist and mostly to the far left of center. Maybe Bill O’Reilly is the exception as far as being left of center.

          • Ibsyboy

            First off I haven’t heard him say he doesn’t care for a large segment of America. I hear him talking about infrastructure. Fixing Roads and Bridges. Putting Contractors back to work along with construction workers. Improving Schools and access to education.
            Once the doors to higher education became available to the Working class, through City Colleges and State Universities. America blew up. Education was no longer the benefit enjoyed only by the rich.

            You immediately see spending. You would rather trust Big Business after they get their tax cuts and further deregulation to step up and do something they have not done up to now.

            That’s very generous of you to accept Obama’s birthright. But, Kansas was on the verge of taking him off the ballot because of a doubt about his birth. So, it continues and it’s your party who propagates this crap.

            Well excuse higher education institutions for proposing that a broader education may help. Liberal Arts. Poly Sci. The Law. The Sciences. They expose people to a wider world of thought than the immigrant hangover of emotional decision making. For instance; Italians were perceived in a negative way, so they had a hard time when they got to America. We are still behaving like that. And the Right Wing exploits those emotions. That’s the dog whistles, and red meat. The sudden contempt for the poor. The GOP’s much maligned freeloaders. The more things change the more they stay the same.

            Like big business when the revenues shrink, fire the workers, When the economy shrinks fire the Poor, and enrich the Wealthy. Sure fire way to ruin things for everyone.

          • Ibsyboy

            Re: Medicare. What’s to discuss. He wants to cut 750 Billion from Medicare and 642 Billion form Medicaid leaving 11 Million people without health care.
            His corner stone: Vouchers, where in Gods name is an 80 year old with preexisting conditions and a topped out limit going to get Insurance with a piece of worthless paper. Voucher, that’s a plan? There’s no debate here when you look at the juvenile construct of his plan’s foundation. Unworkable, will cost us more, will increase the debt. There, your discussion has been had. And Ryan’s plan is a College Freshman’s Ayn Rand inspired up with the wealthy down with the losers essay with no value in the real world.

          • montanabill

            Proved my point.

          • Ibsyboy

            That Ryan’s medicare plan is a disaster. Wow, we finally agree on something.

          • montanabill

            Maybe it is. Maybe it isn’t. But you wouldn’t know. You got your information from DNC talking points. Even if the Ryan Plan was great, the DNC would have to demonize it. If exactly the same plan came from Chuckie Schumer, they would lionize it. As long as people depend on someone else to do their thinking for them, the political parties will take advantage.

          • Ibsyboy

            You still sound doubtful. A lot of “ifs” in your comment. If a frog had wings it could fly. Wishful thinking. A sure sign of doubt.

          • Ibsyboy

            The future of American jobs. These are those jobs Romney and the GOP are going to create more of to alleviate the unemployment problem:

            Warehouses have sprouted up throughout Riverside and San Bernardino counties in California in recent years, with the area serving as a primary entry point for goods manufactured in Asia and destined for U.S. retail stores. In addition to a lot of new jobs, the growth of supply-chain work in Southern California has brought complaints of harsh working conditions, particularly for the temporary workers laboring on the bottom rung. Most of the striking workers are what are known as “lumpers” — manual laborers who load and unload products from trucks and containers. Such workers often earn close to the minimum wage and have no benefits or reliable work schedules.

            In a class-action suit filed earlier this year, workers at a warehouse in the Inland Empire claimed a contractor had devised an “unlawful scheme” whereby the employees worked overtime without additional pay. Last year, a separate group of workers filed a suit against the same company, Schneider Logistics, claiming the company had shorted them on their pay. Both suits are still pending.

            “Priority number one for me is the water,” said Rodriquez, a forklift driver who’s been at the warehouse for ten months, working about 32 hours a week for $10 per hour. “We don’t have clean drinking water. We don’t have the proper equipment to work with. The equipment is broken and that puts our health and safety at risk.”

            This how Corporate America sees the future of America. Low wages, long hours, no Benefits. High Profit. No Unions, no voice for the workers at all, don’t like the job quit and go somewhere else. Passionate Conservatism at its worst. That’s Ayn Rand’s America, Paul Ryan’s America. Mitt Romney ios quite aware of this type of job. He has thousands of employees in forgieng countries working under the same conditions, but for a dollar an hour and 12 to 14 hour days.

            Were entering a return to the pre-Depression Era. Hard work jobs, low wages, long hours, no weekends off, no paid vacations, no sick leave, no health care, no paid holidays. Perfect, we can get rid of Welfare, but we’ll need Medicaid and Food Stamps, the Corporations will insist on that. The margins work out much better if the Government covers the health care and food stamps. Walmart is already doing that for their part timers who work for low wages, long hours and benefits provided by Uncle Sam.

            Go GOPers, lead us to the Promised Land. The Land of Milk and Honey. God Bless the caring, compassionate GOP.

          • montanabill

            Ok, you used an extremely board brush to try to tar the GOP, who actually had nothing to do with your example, since it was in sunny, Democrat, California. How about I use the same brush using my company as the example. As I’ve pointed out before, I’m a fiscal conservative, so I generally vote GOP candidates. So count me as GOP.

            My primary company has been in existence for over 40 years. We pay well above average salaries to the best qualified people we can find. After one year, you get a two week paid vacation. After five, a three week paid vacation. We provide for medical coverage for the employee and their family. That includes dental. You are entitled to a week of paid sick leave. After one year of service, you are entitled to participate in our retirement plan. Before we went over 100 employees, it was SARSEP where we contributed an amount equal to 15% of the employee’s salary to their IRA. Now it is done with a 401k. Turnover has always been extremely low. The staff is very multi-cultural, with women, black Americans and hispanics in management positions. We have no debt. We do check to be sure you are in country legally. We added to our staff by 25% last year. We work 40 hr/ 5 day weeks. The need for overtime is rare. Staff members are involved in their communities. We are not union.

            So, obviously, all GOP lead companies are good for America, right?

          • Ibsyboy

            These things are the result of the Unions. These things you list did not exist prior the Unions. The Unions set the standard operating procedures for American businesses. It became part of the wage package that had to be offered to acquire the best employees. It’s what helped to build the Middle and Working classes.
            The bad guys are the target of my argument. Not every company in America. But, it appears the GOP aligns it self with the bad guys, The guys who wish not to do what you demonstrated in your comment. Real wages have been flat since the 70s. Some body has deliberately taken advantage of the economic environment to benefit at the expense of the employees. They’re the bad guys. They’re the ones who drive the conversation for tax breaks and financial market deregulation. The GOP is not coming up with this stuff on their own, there is significant pressure coming from somewhere to push the GOP position along. Both Parties get pushed. It comes down to who suffers from each parties position. For the GOPers, it’s the under class. For the DEMs it the upper class. So, it’s not real difficult for me to chose . I don’t see how we can’t afford to help the underclass, and the GOP have reinforced their argument by using the insidious “Starve the Beast” tactic. Make so many cuts it brings us to the safety nets at last. Where else can we go. Increase Revenues, what a ghastly idea. We can run the country on nothing. Let us prove it to you. No Thanks. Then everyone will be Poor. Except the one 10th of 1%ers. We need to preserve the model you show in your comment. Walmart crushes small businesses when they drop a big box in a small town. Yes, they provide cheap goods, but the price is based on the spending power of the consumer. Walmart pushes down employment opportunity and therefor wages. So to survive Walmart needs to provide goods for these underpaid folks. When the local businesses were around there was employment and the employees patronized the local businesses. The price we pay for low cost goods, is much to high for American communities. Local businesses close and Walmart instantly has it’s cheap labor force.

          • montanabill

            At a point in America’s history, unions made sense. They could make sense again, but a simple look at what the teachers union in Chicago is doing and what they tried to do in Wisconsin is evidence enough that their demands are a bridge too far.
            How many companies in this country has union intransigence put out of business or chased their jobs overseas? Orders of magnitude more than Bain Capital.

            You point a lot at Walmart. They are simply the latest morph of the department store. And they will be displaced by some other morph in the future. It is probably already happening with the internet. If internet shopping is the future, then there will no longer be even a Walmart to employ those who didn’t get an education.

            Again, you are missing the big picture the GOP is trying to tell you. It is unlikely that old jobs will come back. We must create new kinds of businesses. We must have a well educated work force. If you now do the kind of work that can be automated, you need to train as fast as possible for a new profession. If you insist on avoiding education, you will be poor.

            I will again point you back to the Obama speech I quoted. He didn’t say a word about raising revenues. He said it would be painful, but we had to cut spending. He was right, but he didn’t follow up. It is not a question of ‘if’ on cutting spending, it is a question of ‘when’. The impact now will be a lot less than it will be when it is ruthlessly forced. We have some ability to manage the impact now, but when the roof finally caves in, we will be out of options for Medicare, Social Security, defense, welfare, infrastructure spending and borrowing.

            Increasing revenues to the government depend on business. If business is healthy and expanding, jobs will return. With the return of jobs will be increased revenue to the government. It won’t happen under any other circumstances. You’ve heard it before and, Lord knows there are plenty who visit this site that don’t believe it, but it is none-the-less true: you can’t tax your way to prosperity.

          • Ibsyboy

            This argument that Unions are not necessary is a ruse sold to people like your self to rationalize a misunderstood point of view re: Unions. With the rise of Walmart, Empire Island and other low wage, long hour, no benefit jobs. We need Unions more than ever. Walmart is the new model. A stressed Economy, High unemployment the very situation which gave rise to Unions in the first place. This move to demonize Unions is a Corporate dream come true, and they sell the “Unions are not needed” crap to push their anti- Union, profit taking philosophy. No Unions, more power reverts back to the employer. Look at your history. When the employer has unfettered power to run their business as they see fit. The employee is the first victim. Why would any business pay decent wages if they did not have to. We have high unemployment, it’s a buyers market. People are desperate for work. They will clean toilets for $5.00 an hour. We have been there before, back when there was no Middle;e or Working classes. We were a country divided in 3. The Poor, the Working Poor and the Filthy Rich. If you can’t see that on the horizon, you’ve got to take off the Rose Colored Glasses and stop being convinced that blame is the way out. Unions are an impediment to bigger profits, they always have been. Profit takers care less about the employees. History has shown that going back to the feudal states of Europe and the slave trades of ancient Rome and Egypt. Money has no morality. An obscene amount of money even less. A hedge fund could get investors for Murder, Inc. if the margins were there.

          • montanabill

            I read that as saying you want unions and you want to be in a union so that you won’t have to be responsible for your educational and career decisions. You want unions that can force businesses to pay the wages you want, instead on a wage that makes sense for the business. That hasn’t worked too well for the garment industry, the steel industry or the auto industry. You want a union that can force a railroad to continue to employ firemen long after the need for them was gone. You want unions to be able to require union labor for doing such highly complex things as plugging in an electrical plug for a company exhibiting at a NY convention. That kind of difficult work is easily worth the $50 or more. You want unions to insure that, even if you are totally incompetent, you can’t be fired.
            You want unions so that people don’t have to really get paid what they are actually worth, because people who are worth something don’t need unions.

          • Ibsyboy

            You ARE that dense. Think about his, and I know you are not allowed to, but I won’t tell on you.

            No Child Labor
            8 hour days
            5 day work week
            Weekends off
            Over time Pay
            Paid vacations ( great for business at the sea shore resorts)
            Major Holidays Off
            Sick Leave with out fear of losing your job.
            Health Care for you and your family
            Pension funds.
            No fear of getting fired with out just cause.

            Everything on this list is what helped to create the Middle and Working classes.
            Plus the birth of the American Dream. Upward mobility. Before the Great Depression of ’29, back when the Wealthy ruled the Country, something you are so fond of, we had the Poor, the working Poor and the Filthy Rich. Ah, the good old days when Businesses ran unfettered about the Country spreading poverty with low wages and zero benefits. Sounds like the dawn that would break again in America with Romney and Ryan. That’s what you want Ducky? That’s fine, but please spare the rest of us.

            This is what I mean by how much money do you need. The companies made money.
            And yes there were companies that left America for foreign shores because they didn’t not like that arrangement. Private Equity was born. Buy a profitable company. Get investors increase the value of the Company then go bankrupt, but not before pulling 10s of millions out as profit for the investors and management. Like Bain. So, you could say Unions inspired the much beloved, by the GOP, PE bushiness. Making money by not working, just scheming and dancing around the law. The American Way with the approval and imprimatur of the GOP.

            Good Luck Ducky. God Bless with that dream for our country. A Dead end for all.

          • montanabill

            No child labor? That means I couldn’t have been selling papers on the street at age 10, picking in the orchards at 12, working in a feed mill at 15, washing windows at 17, which meant I wouldn’t have learned how to work.

            8 hour days? I could count the number of 8 hour days I worked on one hand. Show me someone who says they work an 8 hour day and I’ll show you someone who really works more like 6 hours a day.

            5 day week/weekends off. Pretty rare. More like 5 1/2 day weeks. For people who were building their own businesses, it was 7 day weeks and 12 hour or more days, with no vacations.

            All the rest are nice for the employee and employers that compete for top quality employees will provide those things are part of their package. If you are completely interchangeable with anyone else, it is simply a cost the employer must pass on to customers. But if a company somewhere else doesn’t have to add some of those costs to their product, guess which company survives and which one doesn’t.

            None of those things created the middle class. They simply made life more comfortable. They don’t create upward mobility. In fact, if you were to examine the lives of the people who rise in a corporation, you’ll find that they tend to skip a lot of that free time.

            Learn about private equity companies.

            If you like dependency…if you like unemployment (lots of time off)…if you really want to live in a country that can be threatened by other countries…if you really want a government regulating every aspect of your life so you don’t have to make decisions…if you really want everyone to live as one large lower class, by all means, keep voting Democrat, because that is exactly what they are working for, for you.

          • Ibsyboy

            You ARE a putz. You know I was referring to the sweat shops where little kids worked for 10 to 12 hours a day for pennies. Would it be safe to assume you would have defended that type of exploitation at the time? YES. And hated the idea that kids should be in school. And how lucky they all were to have a job at all. They could satisfy themselves with thinking how wonderful the owner was in allowing them to share in the glory of his success.

            Okay, None of those things created the Middle Class. Now I have to say, you are an idiot or just contrary in your defense of an indefensible world view.

            The good salaries the Unions got the laborers had nothing to do with their ability to afford more goods. And the Levitt Brothers were not aware of this post war boom in incomes of the then working class. In fairness I do need to include a much hated idea, by the GOP, the G.I.Bill. A Government handout. Combined with good paying jobs, the returning veterans were able to leave the working class neighborhood and move to Levittown, plus get a higher education thanks to the Government. Yeah the Unions had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rise of the Middle Class. It was the Business owners who said to themselves, hey let’s shrink our margins and pay our employees more, give them over time, weekends off, paid vacations, holidays off, health benefits. That’s right I almost forgot the kindness and generosity of the Business owners. Sorry about that. Your precious business owners are the ones who deserve all the credit for the rise of the middle class, how foolish to think other wise.

          • montanabill

            All this relates back to the ‘bridge too far’ view of the unions. I have never denied their role in helping workers get a fairer shake. But having reached that goal, union bosses could not become simply monitors insuring there was not a backward step, they had to continue pushing for more to justify their jobs and larger union dues. My father in his later years became President of his local for one reason. Too many journeymen were coming to town who didn’t have the skills of a good apprentice, and he didn’t want good local people put out of a job by lazy, incompetent journeymen who had a union card.

            Just for grins, look up which party actually wrote the first GI bill.

            Apparently we don’t need businesses to have a middle class, just government and unions. It that why Obama is trying kill business?

          • Ibsyboy

            The goal is to continue working to prevent Corporations and Industry from backsliding. Such as the WalMart and Inland Ports models. These companies exploit the unemployed and the working poor. There is no way to; home ownership and a decent life for your family in those jobs. The GOP doesn’t like the minimum wage. Do you know how much a business would pay if they didn’t have to pay minimum wage. Next to nothing. that’s a reversal of the hard work and sacrifice of the Union strikers who help to put a stop to such exploitation. The stock market is at 13,000. Corporate profits are at an all time high. Yet we still have high unemployment. If I hear another GOPer say Job Creators I will go ballistic. The employees are the job creators. Why do successful companies have to be induced to hire people? Why should we shrink our revenues to satisfy people who are living larger than life. The American Capitalist System has made it so easy for Big Business, and they still want us to make it easier. The Easier it gets for Big Business the harder it gets for the American worker. If you can’t see that then the GOP has become a cult.

            I know I am pissing in the wind with what I am about to write. Could you give me some declarative examples of Obama’s business killing?

          • montanabill

            Sorry you feel that way about business owners. Whoever you worked for must not have treated you very well. There is a classic example, still in existence, of union vs non-union. For years, I flew around the U.S. frequently. I could always tell when I was on an airline with unions. The stews and flight people would always be gathered in the galley on a long flight, complaining about their conditions. The one airline, that I flew most often, always had happy people. They provided the best service and were proudest of their airline. It was, and is, Delta. To this day, except for the pilots, non-union. (I don’t know about the ground people since I didn’t have contact with them.)

            Union people don’t work for their employers. They work for the union. And it shows. A good employer will take care of the employees, instilling pride in what they are accomplishing. Once a union takes hold, it is us and against them, and the company become a soulless shell.

            Explain to me one more time how there can be a middle class without business?

          • Ibsyboy

            The constant use of examples you offer has a continuing theme of: US against Them.
            That there exists in America this great evil. An evil so serious that a cultural war has been declared and the enemy is the poor, the non tax paying people, the people who are constantly sucking on the teat of Government. And to compound that evil they have absolutely no interest in doing anything about it. This hyperbole is completely insensitive.

            Profit taking is different than profit making. One is a solo selfish endeavor, the other is a collective one.

            What is at the root of this sudden attack on the less fortunate. From my world view it is selfishness. All of the BS about personal responsibility and the rest of the disparaging slogans that go along with that one., are just a cover up of the underlying shame they have for holding this contempt for the less fortunate. And the crap about only trying to help them break the hold of poverty on them is an other sanctimonious cover for the baseness of the outlook. Romney has to wait to be in a safe environment to finally expose his real feelings about the freeloaders. He was among sympathetic friends. This is what he had to resort to, to beg for money from fellow Millionaires.

            Money does not buy privilege. Privilege is an assumed manner which comes WITH money. But sorry, privilege does not give people the right to be critical of those who have not had the same advantages. It’s the Matthew Effect: As the rich get richer , the poor get poorer. It comes from this quote:

            For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken even that which he hath.
            —Matthew 25:29, King James Version.

            This is my guiding light. The charity and compassion of the Bible and it’s socialist Redeemer Jesus Christ. The son of God.

            And there is no right granted to anyone to think they have dominion of others to the point of being hyper critical of the less fortunate. You can say what you will, and show me examples. I will never turn my back on the very people Jesus Christ demanded me to be responsible for. The amount of money from my taxes taken to support the programs for the less fortunate hurts me a hell of a lot more than a multi millionare. Why am I okay with it, and they are so pissed off by it. It’s is a sociological issue rooted in contempt.

            The sociological under belly of this manifestation of one human being having contempt for another human being, over money no less, is shameful. A concerted effort on the part of the Haves to finally once and for all undue the burden of the Christian responsibility Jesus requires of us regarding the less fortunate.

            To add insult to injury they use their educations to rationalize their selfish behavior. Suddenly the poor are on the lips of every GOPer and Teahadist in America. Proclaiming from the roof tops; “We Have Found the Enemy and They Are Poor.”

            Any they have no responsibility for themselves. I believe it is 47% of the country. What is the message here. It’s US aaginst THEM. Us being those who have who pat themselves on the back because they have not been sidled with the tonnage of poverty. How easily they cast off suggestions, and so blithely, it sounds like snobbery and why are you (the Poor) in existence and causing me so much discomfort by your sheer exorbitance. Please go away.

            You support your case with a collection of see: here is an example of how the difference of non Union and Union. These examples are the result of studio0us work to further the argument that Unions are unnecessary and the theme is always: TRUST ME. Why should I trust people who are driven by unbridled desire for wealth and all that comes with it. And if anyone threatens or suggest I be moralistic, can go fuck themselves.

          • montanabill

            The ‘hyperbole’ may be insensitive, but is basically true. And don’t be so hypocritical about the ‘us vs them’ game. That is the President’s game. Rich vs poor, war on women, war on latinos, racism, and more. Day in and day out, the President has been out there dividing one group against another. Romney makes one generally true comment and suddenly the guilty become incensed?! Give me a break!

            Keep your healthy cases of wealth envy, denial and demonization, and vote for Obama. It has been working well for you so far and four more years of your current circumstance should make you really happy. Don’t know whether your grand kids will appreciate it, but if they are poor, under educated, and dependent on government, they probably won’t know the difference.

          • Ibsyboy

            Man, what happened to you. You make every up or down. There is no middle ground.

            I must say though at least the GOPers are true to themselves, They take personal responsibility, but here is how they define it, personal responsibility, I have taken care of myself, and everyone else is on their own.

            It is not wealth envy. God I thought that hackneyed old chestnut went away. Your getting desperate when you dig out the golden oldies. Can you imagine the guy who come up with that slogan. That’s it they are envious of your wealth. Bingo! Pure genius! It’s laughable. If it weren’t so sad , in it’s desperation.

            There is a guy running for President, who has contempt for people beneath his class.

            That attitude doesn’t come from being Poor. That’s the view from the road, with their personal responsibility crap, and every other piece of justification for their contempt for the poor and their sheer selfishness. They have no shame. The one thing they can’t afford. And it’s free. It is always about the money with the GOPers. Help for Veterans; How much will it cost. Help for Veterans families: How much will it cost. Help for families of deceased military personnel; How much will it cost. It makes sense to be cost conscious. But let’s try starting with the objective first. If you can find a way of paying for Tax Cuts, why not help for people who need and deserve it. We are the richest country in the world, and the people who control the wealth are just outright selfish. They benefit the most from every thing in America. The laws are changed in their behalf at the drop of a hat. They get in trouble they have the best lawyers, regardless of the crime, they have an advantage not available to other citizens. Money for the best lawyers. The laws are applied differently to them. Bernie Madoff got nailed because he stole from rich people..

            The GOP has been able to convince average Americans to defend the wealthy as though their lives and dreams depend upon it, so they had to start a class war and make an enemy of the less fortunate in America. Get the underclass to hate the lower class, and we’ll get the underclass defending Billionaires and Millionaires. Also, make the underclass think we care about them. That’s the ticket.

            Those poor people suffering grave interstice because of their enormous wealth.

          • Ibsyboy

            There are 2 Obama’s the real one and the one created by the Right. Jesus, they couldn’t even wait for the guy to sit down in the oval office. They had to have a private confab the night of Obama’s Inauguration, His Inauguration was attended by 1 million Americas. 1 Million 47%ers.

            Later that night: Newt Gingrich, Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor,and other leaders of the GOP and Teahadist Party, gathered for food and drinks so they could concoct a plan to overthrow a sitting President of the United State of America. Obama hadn’t even taken a wiz in the Oval Office bathroom, and they are conspiring to destroy his Presidency.

            I saw an economy spiraling down ward. I saw a President who was handed the job. I saw an opposition with not an inkling of interest in helping. I saw the economy level off. We went from 750,000 per month job loses to 30 months of private sector job growth. With no help for the opposition, I saw the DOW drop to 6000 then rise to over 13,000. With out any help from the opposition. I watched Corporate profits hit near historical levels. With no help from the opposition.

            I saw existing home sales rise 7.8% in August from July to an annualized rate of 4.82 million units, topping estimates of a 4.55-million unit rate and marking the fastest pace since May 2010 (Under Obama). Without the help of the opposition.

            I watched a POTUS announce the death of one of Americas greatest enemies, OBL. And then I watched the opposition work hard to deny him any credit.

            I read this: A striking statistic from Tuesday’s NBC/Wall Street Journal poll that a growing number of Americans believe the country is on the right track. And without the help of the Opposition.

            If this was a sporting event it would look like this. GOP gives themselves points. Obama gets negative points. Obama scores a TD. Boo. He now has to kick off from the his own end zone. Kicks it out of the GOP end zone. Boo. He scores on a 100yard plus kick return. Boo. He makes a 70 yard field goal. Boo. He ultimately wins the game. GOP Boos and yells, He cheated.

            As I look at all that I have listed. I’d say considering the lack of cooperation, and starting in his own end zone on every possession. I am looking at a hard working , persistent, hopeful human being. Looking nothing like the Obama the Right has created to appease the Obama haters.

            This man has over come a mountain of resistance from the opposition and came through it standing and popular with the population of the Country he proudly serves.

            And then I look at the opposition’s deliberate attempt, with the help of The Blame Stream Media, to ruin this man.

            He is the man for the job for me and America. Not a bunch of disappointed, selfish, contemptible bullies who put Ideology before Country.

            A lesser man would have quit. But, not Obama, he optimizes Grit.

            The GOP deserves to be punished for their seditious behavior. And I believe they will.

            I am part of the 47% and very proud of it. Fuck the Right and it’s careless lack of concern for all of the Citizens of the USA.

            Montana my man, you’re on the wrong side of the street on this one.

          • montanabill

            Vote for Obama and remain one of the 47% if that makes you happy, but if the man was doing his job, there wouldn’t be 47% (actually 57% receiving from the government) and there wouldn’t be 23 million unemployed or underemployed. You can spin his record any way that makes you happy. Just be prepared for another 4 years of his ‘fabulous success’ and the real possibility of a country so far in debt we are nearing 3rd world status with South American style inflation, along with riots by people who are no longer getting their government goodies because there are no more countries we can borrow money from.
            I guess if you can say that campaigning and having dinner with celebrities is hard work, then you are right, he is very hard working.

          • Ibsyboy

            That’s a pretty bold statement. There wouldn’t be? Once again you are looking to lay blame. Why is that position always the first the Right goes to. Blame. But first you must find a recipient of the bame that serves the political agenda of the Right.

            Your suggesting the Party that brought down the Economy would have done a better job. When are Supply Siders going realize they are dieing from Trickle Down disease.

            We would have had huge tax cuts for the Wealthy, further deregulation of the financial markets. Huge cuts in Medicare, Medicaid,, Privatization of Social Security, the abolishment of the EPA, Dept. of Education. And the miracle all Righties dream of the Poor would be miraculously absorbed into the Underclass. Unemployment would be at zero, unemployment insurance would have been eliminated, everyone would have been issued a set of bootstraps, a pat on the back, and a wish you well.

            That’s straight our of Grimm’s Fairytales. With the GOP playing the Troll under the bridge. It’s so delusional, it scares me that it comes for intelligent people. What scars me is the social inequity that is attached to this Grand heartless Social Experiment.

            What are yu going to do when yu find out that everyone is like you, that there are people who are genuinely incapable of pull up their own bootstraps. Poor houses, Jails,
            some form of public banishment.

            You do realize the Poor have been with us since the Stone Age. The unfortunate Neanderthal who could not learn how to fish and had to be given a fish.

            The broadness in which the Right applies it’s World View is frightening. It’s right out of Orwell’s 1984. A one size fits all society. If I can do it so can you. Oh, you can’t walk because you have no legs, well do something about it, and get back to us.

            I agree there is something that has to be done about the Poor, and 47% of the Country is not Poor, or unemployed, as Romney suggests. I happen to be part of that 47%, not via my choice of President, but by Medicare and Social Security. I would have no home with out them. I got to this point in life via my personal responsibility.

            The manner in which the Right has chosen, so very well articulated by Romney, to sell this Social Engineering to eliminate the lower class and the Poor. It has contempt written all over it. And you wonder why people vote for the Democrats and why Obama will get 4 more years. My dislike for Profit Takers (not profit makers) is overwhelmingly topped by the perniciousness of the Right’s solution solving. It’s feudal in nature. I take it you don;t read much history about the Feudal Period. Back when the land belonged to the Wealthy, and the Peasants could farm it, it willing to give a huge share of the crop to the landowner. Modern version, Walmart, Inland ports. The value of the laborers time and physical effort it not considered as a valuable thing. The peasant s are a necessary inconvenience. They do all the hard work, they grow the food, do the shit jobs, and get barely enough to get by. That’s unfettered Capitalism.


            TIME BELONGS TO THE CORPORATE WORLD. They decide how we use our time. Even out free time. They own all of the Media, the food supply, the energy supplie. privately controlled prisons, the health industry. Tell of anything they do not own or control. They own the government. All issues are geared towards their benefit. They control an enormous amount of the Wealth in the USA. These are not people working every day to gain success, they are beyond success. They are on to an other form of existence not known by anyone, accept they and their ilk. They are striving for power over everything, hoping for a society that does not resist them. They are getting close, and they want Obama out because he stands in their way.

            Not one thing you are concerned about in all of the comments you have written are of any interest to them. You doing the grunt work of pursuing others to accept the servitude we are walking towards. An Oligarchic Government. Ruled by the “successful” and their massive wealth. Their main concern is to amass more wealth. Not riches. You a still don’t understand the difference between rich and wealthy. The rich are the underclass to the Wealthy. So imagine where we fit in. We don’t. Mitt Romney is not included. He is an empty suit sent out there by the Wealthy to get the combination and open the safe. Bill Bates, Warren Buffet, the Koch Brothers these are Wealthy People. Ramsey is a piker compared to them. What wealthy person would ever aspire to be the POTUS. A pathetic one.

          • montanabill

            Oh boy, you are really on an Alice-in-Wonderland flight.

            Just keep it simple. No profits, no U.S. leading the world. No middle class and no poor class equivalent to most of the world’s middle class. Every single one of us had the same opportunities. Some made good choices. Most didn’t. Very few of our 3-4 million millionaires inherited their money. They created something of value, including Sam Walton. He didn’t inherit money. He didn’t force anyone to work for him. He couldn’t force anyone to shop at his stores. I’m just wondering how you managed to grow up in the U.S. and know so little about how it works.

            What wealthy person would aspire to to POTUS? Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Lyndon Johnson, Herbert Hoover, James Madison, Theodore Roosevelt, Thomas Jefferson. I left out George Washington, because he was asked to be President and didn’t run for the job. He was by far the wealthiest President and would top Romney.

            P.S. Mitt Romney didn’t get to be very rich (and wealthy) or save the Olympics by being an ’empty suit’. But you can get to be President by being one as the current occupant has proved.

          • Ibsyboy

            Correction: What are you going to do when you find out, that NOT everyone is like you, that there are people who are genuinely incapable of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. Poor houses, Jails, some form of public banishment.

            Bill Gates not Bates.

            Tell me of something the Wealthy and the Corporations do not control?

          • montanabill

            And there are, and should be, safety nets. However, those people make up a very small percentage of the population and are only tiny fraction of those that are actually subsisting off the government.
            Do the ‘wealthy’ control you? They don’t control me. Only government has the power to legally point a gun at me and tell me what I must do. No individual or corporation has that power.

          • Ibsyboy

            “Our Christian tradition teaches that we are to treat the poor with dignity and to prioritize the poor in our policies as a society. At a time when millions are struggling financially, it is degrading to talk about the ‘dependency’ of people hurting in this economy, as Gov. Romney did recently.” — The Franciscan Action Network (FAN), a Catholic faith-based advocacy and civic engagement organization, strongly criticizing Mitt Romney’s recent ads and rhetoric regarding welfare programs and welfare recipients.

            I would imagine, but I couldn’t say for sure, that this Christian tradition is similar between Mormons and Catholics. But the political agendas of Romney and Ryan — both of whom profess to be Mormon and Catholic, respectively — are not inspired by any of the teachings of Jesus Christ, as far as I can see.

            It seems like Christianity only matters to far-right conservatives when they can use it as a weapon against a political enemy.

            “The Mormon religion for which five generations of my ancestry have lived and sacrificed, the religion whose official mantra is “to take care of the poor and needy throughout the world.” My first impulse was to rent an airplane towing a banner: “Mitt Romney is Not the Face of Mormonism!” Gregory A. Prince, Ph.D. Member of the LDS.

          • Ibsyboy

            The view of the America by the Wealthy; We understand the Country is in an economic bind. I know we could probably do something about it. But, what is it going to cost me? Money?, of which we have more than any group of people could possibly need. So, we are being asked to contribute a little bit more?
            Well we would, if you can guarantee it does get into the hands of the less fortunate, the needy, the leeches, the freeloaders.

            What you are seeing here is the Wealthy of Ameirca, in their attempt to not give a bit more to their country, have found a convenient out, through a perverse World view. One which they have been able to sell to the non wealthy people of Ameirca, by creating a social divide. It’s a win win, we the wealthy can convince the non wealth to join us in avoiding our responsibility to our country, because small percentage of every dollar we contribute will go to the less fortunate, the moochers, and freeloaders.

            And guess what it is working. They are successfully avoiding helping their country by convincing a large portion of our society to help them with their blatant selfishness.

          • montanabill

            Funny you should bring up Christian organizations, especially Catholics as an example, when you side with the President in forcing them to pay for birth control and abortion, which is against their doctrines.

            Religious organizations have been providing help and support to people in need totally independent of government for centuries. No where that I remember, did Jesus ever say it was government’s responsibility. He put the responsibility where it belongs, with us.

            Gregory Prince is not the face of Mormonism, either. He is not on the Council nor the President.

          • Ibsyboy

            Gregory Prince (a Mormon) is also the author of Power From On High: The Development of Mormon Priesthood, and the co-author, with William Wright, of a biography of LDS Church President David O. McKay. He is well respected with in the Mormon Church as a spokesman for the LDS. He is a better judge than a non-Mormon.

            The President is not forcing the Catholic Church to do anything. The law reads, if the employer has concerns about providing services that run counter to the Employer’s religious beliefs the Employer does not have to provide, but the Insurance Company which receives Insurance fees from the Employer does. The Church made a big deal out of nothing. If an employee is not a Christian and has no concerns about contraception, why should that employee be denied a service allowable by law. It is the imposition of Religious doctrine on the employee. As many say, it’s not freedom of Religion it is freedom from Religion the Constitution had in mind. That was one of the primary reasons early colonists came to the American Continent. To escape Religious persecution. Not just to have the right to worship, but the right to not worship the imposed religion of the state. And we are still having that problem. Why do Presidents have to be Christians? Why do all Politicians need maps to their local churches around re-election time. It’s hypocritical. It’s an awful thing to demand a Religious belief on a citizen in order to run for public office. If R&R get elected. Romney will be the first Mormon Prez., and Ryan the first Atheist VP.

          • montanabill

            I really don’t care what Prince claims his credentials to be. I am not a Mormon and don’t agree with many of their beliefs, but my best friend in high school was a direct descendent of Brigham Young, many of my classmates were Mormon, my wife’s father was Mormon. So I know a little about Mormons first hand. People within the church are good and bad, exactly like every other institution or religion. But I will say that my experience is that Mormons, as a group, tend to have a pretty good moral compass.

            You are convoluting the church argument exactly like Obama. It does require church run facilities to have the insurance that requires payment for abortion and birth control. Those facilities should be exempt.

            The Constitution absolutely does not imply freedom from religion. It is designed to prevent a state religion and the freedom to exercise whatever religion a person chooses. But you are right about politicians trying to appear whatever they think people prefer. That aspect pretty well crosses party lines equally.

            Remember when it was a big deal for Kennedy to President because he was Catholic?

          • Ibsyboy

            If Warren Buffet and 235,413 Millionaires and Billionaires submitted a 1040EZ next April 15th!
            $5 Million Average income
            35% TAX RATE
            $411,972,750,000 – Yes $412 BILLION / Year or $4.12 TRILLION over ten
            45% TAX RATE
            $529,679,250,000 – Yes $530 BILLION/ Year or $5.3 Trillion over ten years
            – Corporations pay Only 1.3% of GDP and that was 7.2% in 1945
            $15 TRILLION = GDP OF USA
            5.9% LOST IN CORPORATE TAX FRAUD = 7.2% – 1.3%
            $12.97 TRILLION = $8.85 TRILLION + $4.12 TRILLION (TO $5.3 TRILLION)

          • montanabill

            I’ll presume you came by the 235,413 number of people making a $5 million honestly. However, the current ‘effective’ tax would be about 33% not 35%, that’s simple the top rate.

            Wow! 4.12 TRILLION of ten years! Wait a minute. Didn’t Obama spend $6 TRILLION in 4 years? Even a 45% tax wouldn’t cover that.

            The other numbers are conjecture.

            Here’s thought. The 2012 Election is going to be just like 2008, according the National Memo. I guess that means if Obama wins, he’ll be inheriting a huge mess and by 2016, we’ll be even deeper in the sh….

          • Ibsyboy

            The President does not spend money Congress does. The President may make proposals, but it is Congress who appropriates the funds. Please just once in these comment exchanges check out you info. Look at the break down of the expenditures, look where the money is going. Also:
            Annualized Growth of Federal Spending (source: OMB, CBO & Haver Analytics)
            Reagan 82-85 8.7%
            Reagan 86-89 4.9%
            Bush I 90-93 5.4%
            Clinton 94-97 3.2%
            Clinton 98-01 3.9%
            Bush II 02-05 7.3%
            Bush II 06-09 8.1%
            Obama 10-13 1.4%

          • montanabill

            82-85 Democrats controlled the House (where appropriations are created)
            86-89 Democrats controlled the House, the last two years they also controlled
            the Senate
            90-93 Democrats controlled House and Senate
            94-97 Republicans controlled both
            98-01 Republicans controlled the House and Senate til 01, the Senate was tied.
            02-05 Republicans controlled House, tied in 02, then Republicans
            06-09 Democrats controlled both
            10-13 Democrats controlled both for two years, Democrats control Senate,
            Republicans House the last two.

            See a pattern there?

          • Ibsyboy

            The democrats did not control both houses in 06 thru 12. You need a majority that is filibuster proof to have control. The GOP has been Filibuster and hold crazy for the last nearly 4 years. Must I remind you of the 2009 Inauguration night party of GOPers and Teahadists who hatched a plan to deliberately obstruct Congress to prevent this President from being able to do his job? Why is it so hard for you to accept the GOP obstructed Congress from getting anything done for the American people. I don’t hear any hue and cry over that seditious behavior. Man you sure hate this POTUS. Your party has thrown everything but the kitchen sink at this guy, character assassination,
            Personal attacks, Birtherism, you name it they have chopped away at this man in an attempt to make him out as the worse human being to ever walk the face of the earth.
            And he is still standing and it looks like he will get 4 more years form the American people, even after the GOPers have tried so desperately to poison the waters.

            A true American success story. A young American man raised by a single parent and 2 grandparents rises up by pulling himself up by his own boot straps and becomes the POTUS. And what meets him after his trip to the American Dream? A welcome from the Right, that immediately tries to discredit his election. A greeting of contempt, colored with Racism, anger, negativity, disapproval. I mean this man has had to jump over more hurdles than any man has ever been asked to do in History to prove his worth as a citizen of the United States of America. And you were happy to jump on that wagon a toss your share of crap at him. That is one of the big motivators for my vote going to him. Anyone who can stand up to that much abuse is a strong man with a strong belief and character. I would follow him into battle, knowing he had my back. He is an historic figure just for his ability to survive the attacks aimed at him for nearly 4 years. And they still continue. It has been ceaseless. No man in history has had to put up with the unceasing barrage of personal attacks. On him and his wife.
            2 Negroes trying to enjoy the success they worked so hard to achieve. The first Negro to be the POTUS. And there are people in this country hanging him in effigy and thinking that is okay behavior followed by laughter. Who sanctions that? The Right Wing by it’s constant display of disrespect for this man. Any one is free to make up any lie you wish about the President of the United State of America. Hang him in effigy if necessary. Compare him to Hitler and Stalin. The devil if it suits you. We are a disgrace to the world. What the hell happened to America? How did we get to such a low place, where a man on the radio can call a young women a slut and a Prostitute because she defends contraception. And the man sees nothing wrong with his comments, and others repeat his remarks and chuckle. That’s your America not mine.

          • montanabill

            So no fault of the Democrats that spending increased under their watch? Obviously, they just stood by and watched while the minority Republicans pushed through huge spending bills.
            I’m just sorry there weren’t enough Republicans to block the ridiculous stuff that was passed the first two years. If they, we might well be into recovery already.

            You skipped just a whole bunch of his story. You can make up your mythical image, but it won’t change who and what he really is.

            What is your hangup on Negroes?

            I heard Rush make his comment about Sandra Fluke. It was made in the context of what she pushing and not directed at her as a person. Of course, the left reversed the context because it fit a demonization narrative. The left can’t talk about the real truth.

          • Ibsyboy

            Side Note: The destruction of the Military if Gays could openly serve. One year later, and?

            This is a letter sent my way:

            From Jason Rico:
            As a gay veteran, I had never thought I’d see the day come.
            At 12:01 a.m. exactly one year ago today, gay servicemen and women became free to serve openly, thanks to the repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (DADT).
            My mom raised me to be an honest man with a deep love for my country. When I joined the Navy in 1998, my patriotism came first and my personal life second.
            When I chose to leave the armed services, it was because I didn’t want to lie anymore. I wasn’t ashamed of who I am, and I didn’t like feeling as if my country was ashamed of me, either.

            There are thousands of gay veterans like me who never got a chance to serve openly, more than 13,000 troops who have been discharged, and countless men and women who might have chosen to serve their country had the policy not been in place.
            With the repeal of DADT, I felt a renewed sense of pride in my service, and I know I’m not alone.
            Our military is more united than ever. Valor and sacrifice aren’t limited by sexual orientation. First-class heroes aren’t treated like second-class citizens based on who they love — gay and lesbian troops don’t have to serve our country under false pretenses.


            Jason Rico

            Here is an example of how the Right amped up Americans to be driven emotionally to oppose something they knew nothing about, but had been persuaded to accept as something blatantly wrong (Gays in the Military) The thrust of the Right was so severe it generated anger between people. It was totally unnecessary. I was a public issue which did not need stirring up. All that was needed was for people to make up their own minds. It is exactly the same thing with the sudden contempt for the poor the Poor. A campaign has been waged. The Slogans have been circulated. Personal Responsibility. Leeches. Freeloaders. It is a social issue that should be dealt with, I agree with you there. But is it necessary to spread this freeloader, leech, 47% negativity around. I personally think it makes things worse. Romney’s remarks on that tape, was revealing and the reaction form , what I assume were intelligent and well educated people was scary. Applauding a slight against the less fortunate. That is why people prefer to vote Democratic. The GOP needs to lighten up with the rhetoric.
            Yes, the DEMs so it too. But one side attacks the other defends. I prefer the defending sideof the argument. Demonizing fellow human beings for a situation not many in the GOP understand from first hand experience is crude.

          • Ibsyboy

            Unfettered business behavior, if give to Business as you suggest, will be impossible to reign in once it gets rolling. Why with high unemployment and the lines around the block looking for work, care about the employees. What would motivate them to offer a living wage and benefits? There is no motivation for a profit taker to do anything to negatively effect their bottom line. Profit taking has been promoted by the GOP, it’s not the same as making a living from your business. The new model is wealth accumulation. Not the pride in running a successful business which employs people who in turn live good and happy lives. I live in a neighborhood, where just about every new College grad is going into the investment world. The opportunity for wealth is much better there, than starting your own business and wait how ever, who knows, long it will take to get that first Porsche.

            Obama talks of cuts because they are necessary, when he talks about taxes on the top 10%, the next topic of discussion from the Right is Obama wants to raise YOUR taxes. Implying the 80% are having their taxes raised. It makes for a distorted view of the ideas of the President, based on a false premise. Yeah, I know the DEMs do the same thing. This tit for tat style of counter argument the Right uses is like; But Mommy, Billy took a cookie too, it wasn’t just me!

            Also Obama talks cuts, not slashing, but measured cuts. His cuts are intended to be balanced by increased revenue. Taxes on the $250,000 and up crowed. I know, there are 40% of the country who pay no income tax, and why should the successful people pay for the losers. I have heard that canard as well. How anyone can support the people in this country who benefit the most from a society based on the privilege of wealth. The Wealthy are not royalty. The USA offered them the opportunity and laws to enhance their wealth, and retain more of it. And the GOP is prepared to reward them again. If hard work is so important to the Right, why do they insist on making it easy for the Wealthy and harder on the underclass. How much wealth do people need? $250,000 is a lot of dough. And if those who have it live beyond their means, why is that the concern of the public who are struggling to feed their kids. It’s the same as the lack of concern the Wealthy have for the working poor, and the underclass in general. Which way serves the greater good. A huge gated community or a wide open community. I’ll opt for returning to an America separated into the hard working people and the rich. Not that big of a divide. The opportunity to be rich was in reach. The new measurement of hardly working people and the obscenely wealthy is a chasm meant to be uncrossable. And the GOP wants to widen that chasm even more.

          • montanabill

            If you ever run a business, get back to me.
            When you can find one single dime Obama has ‘slashed’, get back to me.
            When you can do math, so that you can understand exactly how increased taxes on the top 10% will affect the deficit or debt, get back to me.
            You like hard working people? You won’t have to look far. As long as Obama is President, you are going to have half the country working hard just to remain poor.
            How much wealth do people need? Whatever they want to earn. That door is still open, regardless of the fact that you haven’t opened it. And whatever they earn, it won’t be taken from you.

          • Ibsyboy

            You can not be that thick. I am talking about Corporate America, the 1 tenth of 1 %, who call the shots for the GOP. That’s the bad guys of Wealth. The GOP caters to them as if they are Royalty.

            Obama’s truck load of Dimes:
            600,000 public employees let go. That’s a big chunk of change saved
            Getting most of the troops out of Iraq. Another Chunk of Money we are not spending.
            Tax cuts for the wealthy end at the end of this year. Big Revenue.

            All of the working poor have been doing that for years. There will be more if wages like those paid by Walmart and Inland Ports become the norm. . And if the healthcare bill is repealed 11 million people lose their health care. People who you guys don’t particularly like any way. So who cares. Right?!

            Wealth is not earned it’s grown. There’s a difference. Romney has never worked a day in his life. Private Equity is not work. If you think it is, then Robbing Banks should be considered work.

            Millions were forced in to poverty by the Grand Crash of 2008. The idea is to try something other than what was at the core of the collapse. Tax Cuts and deregulating the financial market did not work.

            And, I would like to remind you again of a terrible un-pleasantry for you. Inauguration Night 2009. A meeting to plan the over throw the POTUS.
            Newt Gingrich, Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor and a host of GOPers and Teahadists met to hatch a plan of obstructing Obama on everything he sends to Congress. So please consider that when you talk about getting things done for America. Like a jobs bill.

          • montanabill

            In other words, America’s largest companies, that employ hundreds of thousands of your fellow Americans, the ones that have made America into an economic powerhouse, are all bad guys because they have made people wealthy and America strong? Anyone in the 0.1% is a bad guy? Don’t look now, but about an equal number of those folks are Democrats, and they have been contributing to Obama. Or are just the ones who contribute to Republicans bad people?

            So that 11 million people can get health care, 309 million must receive lower quality health care and have their grandchildren inherit an unsustainable entitlement program. Sounds fair.

            Decrease in federal employment: 0.5% Decrease in private employment: 6%

            There has not been a tax cut for the wealthy. There was only one tax reduction and it really wasn’t a tax cut and it wasn’t for the wealthy.

            So people who use their brains can’t be considered to be working.

            The initial tax cuts enacted under Bush did exactly as intended. Raised the economy and increased revenues to the government. It was subsequent events that created the problem. (remember Barney Frank?)

            What would a ‘jobs bill’ look like? Should it look exactly like the first stimulus bill that worked so well? Just maybe, it is Harry Reid who is thwarting restoration of the economy by blocking bipartisan bills passed by the House.

          • Ibsyboy

            I don’t give a damn what party someone is with if they put Profit before people. And I mean the profit that sustains the Business and makes the owner Rich. It’s interesting that you never mention the contribution the employees make to the success of America. Your implication is the Wealthy Corporate folks are the sole reason for America’s Success. Everyone else should just consider themselves lucky. Of course they employ ten of thousands of Americans and would not hesitant to send those jobs, as many have, to foreign countries to maximize their bottom line.

            Every person who uses their brains are not as unemotional as those who are preoccupied with wealth.

            All wealth is not acquired through honesty and decency
            Mitt Romney had to sit in an office, along with his asst. managers, and consider the fate of American lives (losing their jobs) to maximize profits for Bain and it’s investors. Historically this mind set does not succeed. The American and French Revolutions come to mind. Spartacus, The Union Strikes of the early 1900s. Unfettered Capitalism is a Feudal State in the making.

            I have nothing against making money. I don’t like it at the expense of one’s fellow citizens. Corporations and GOPers are constantly fighting for lower taxes for the Wealthy. Why are they centered out as eserving and the underclass is not. The under class is currently about 80% of the Country.

            Private Equity and Hedge Funds are not work. They are guys sitting in a Casino in Atlantic City playing with the House’s money. Where does that trickle down. It doesn’t. It’s wealth acquisition. Has no benefit to anyone except the gambler.

            Why is there such a problem on the Right with Corporations considering the lives that are negatively affected by business decisions to make more money. The employees cannot be considered as non people and just a business expense. What if the men and women who fight and risk their lives to keep America safe, decided they were not interested in dying for Ameirca. Why are they held to a higher Patriotic standard than Corporations?

            Walmart v Costco. Both very profitable companies. One is run with complete consideration for profit and not the employees. Costco is run to make a profit and does quite well, it has made Jim Sinegal a very wealthy man, but Costco pays living wages and provides benefits. Now you see why I get angry. Their is a way for Capitalism to work with out being ruthless. Does every last buck need to be squeezed out? Does the Government have to reward people who have already been amply rewarded by the USA’s Capitalist system.

            Plus you keep cranking out the Party line. Helping people is less important than protecting those who have to live with a little less. It’s selfishness under writen by a distain for the less fortunate, because we all know evey one who recieves money fromthe GOvernment are leeches. Romney as much stated teh Right’s distain for the under class. How did he put it: My job is not to care about those people. My job is to make them more responsible to themselves.

            I currently collect SS and use medicare. I am highly insulted that he has the brass to call me and millions like me as irresponsible leeches. I am one of the 47% who vote for Obama. The cats out of the bag. The GOP is a bigoted Party.
            And your constant standing up for their elitist world view should step back and think about your fellow citizens and not the people who don’t give a rat’s butt abut you.

            They would screw you so fast, if there was a buck in it.

          • montanabill

            I got your message. We should put every company who puts profit before people out of business. Better to lose money or the company or both, but never lay off an employee. You have nothing against making money, just don’t do it with profit.

            You don’t like Walmart. Easy fix. Don’t shop there. Don’t work there.

            We view helping people in two different lights. You want stuff given to people. Give them a good job, with good wages and lots of benefits. Just don’t require much from them and don’t worry if you don’t make a profit, you are helping people.

            Just a clue for you. Businesses are not created to employ people. Any jobs they create belong to the business, not to the employees. The Soviets tried it the other way. It didn’t work too well.

            I whole heartily agree with Romney, I want people to become more responsible for themselves. They will be infinitely freer with a lot more pride. It is what we want for our fellow citizens. We do not want a society of head down dependency.

            For the record, the people Romney was talking about are the 47% eligible for the work force but not paying income tax. Since you are above retirement age, that does not include you. I get the feeling you are dependent on your SS. Yes, you put money into it, but if you collect it for more than a few years, you will receive far more than amount you and your employers deposited. You had the option during your working years to put aside enough so that SS could be a supplement, not your means of survival. I hope you did that.

          • Ibsyboy

            You have this annoying habit. You insist on putting words in my mouth. I never suggested that companies lose money. I suggested in pursuit of profits it should not be at the expense of the people who worked hard to help build the business. Loyalty is a nasty word in the GOP world, I know. I see it all the time.

            I have nothing against money or profit. I have a lot against it being the only valuable thing over and above one’s fellow human beings. The GOP has no problem with dispensing with ethics to make a profit. I, for one, don’t think it’s necessary

            Management fucks up. First thing you do is fire the people not responsible for the fuck up. The Employees. Then bring in some high priced genius, he suggests you sell the company. Up steps Bain, they figure out where the maximum amount of money is, bankrupt the company. Bain drives away with a truck load. The employees limp away with nothing.

            I still have not seen you step up for the employees. It’s always management.

            47% who vote for Obama and the 47% who don’t pay income tax. Either way you slice it, he is still marginalizing human beings for political gain. Evil. How do you sit back in all good conscience and apologize for a man who obviously has zero interest in you and the 47% of the people who do not pay income tax. I would think you would be the first to step up for your fellow Americans and say they pay sales tax, payroll tax, state tax, gasoline tax. It sure hits home with a room full of Millionaires that there is 47% of the population who make no contribution whatsoever to the country they live in. That’s the implication. That’s what you hear. I hear something totally different. You don’t have to be a genius to read between those lines. Having lived among the working poor, I have an obligation , as strong as yours are to the rich, to stand up for hard working people who deserve a break. Romney doesn’t know Poor, he sees dead beats. He doesn’t know working poor. He sees dead beats. He doesn’t know elderly people. He sees old dead beats. These are some of the 47% who do not pay income tax. He may be one of them but we will never know.

          • Ibsyboy

            There was a period of time in America, when the Middle Class was at it’s peak, and the it was the driving force in America, demonstrating the better life available to all Americans. The Middle Class was a political force. Not a much desired force. They were better educated, better informed, and able to affect politics. That has been diminished by the financial collapse. The Middle Class suffered not only in lost jobs, but lose of life style, loss of political clout, lost opportunity for their kids. As the Middle Class goes down all that was once the core of the American dream goes down with them. What were entry levels jobs are becoming career jobs. Flipping burgers is not the path to the Middle Class life if it is your career job. Walmart is not the land of entry level jobs, because the next level is gone. You can not earn enough to move up to the next level, like a house, a good reliable car, a good education for your kids. The Walmart Empire is a profit taking company. Maximum profits via smaller labor investment.

          • montanabill

            The ‘financial collapse’ was the affordable housing bubble bursting. A bubble created by the Neighborhood Reinvestment Act and a certain congressman named Barney Frank who used it to force mortgage loans be given to people who couldn’t afford them and blocked Bush’s attempt to rein them in. There have been numerous times in our history when recessions or depressions have knocked down the middle class, but with the exception of the Great Depression, the middle class returned strong when the recession abated. This recession was officially over nearly three years ago and we should have been well on our way to recovery, except for policies of this President. If you keep throwing gas on a fire, it is not going to go out, and that is exactly what the President has done. By continuing to spread fear over the business community, by the promotion of 10’s of thousands of new regulations, by threats of more taxation, by massively increasing the federal debt, by printing more money with nothing backing it, by reducing interest rates to near zero, by making the production of domestic energy more difficult, by creating a whole new class of entitlements, and more, he has insured that our businesses will either hunker down or look elsewhere for opportunity. That means no job growth and no recovery and no middle class.

          • Ibsyboy

            Stop it already. We have heard that crap already. Your a lame apologist for your side. You reprint old news. You guys are running out of stuff. Rehashing a failed economic model such as Supply Side Economics is embarrassing. You need to come up with something convincing. You’re getting a taste of your own medicine, you’re trying to explain a way a perception. People think the GOP and Bush tanked the Economy. Period. And nothing the Right can come up with will not change that perception. Facts are boring. You don’t pay attention to them why would you think anyone else would. As a matter of fact more and more people are beginning to believe it. The constant Obama bashing is boomeranging, people are beginning to ask how could any one be as bad as the Right Wi8ng has tied to paint Obama. Every tactic Karl Rove and his 100s of Millions, have is Obama bashing. It’s becoming a boring message, it’s turning people off to the GOP. 53% of Americans see Romney as a friend to the Rich, not the Middle Class. Obama is the opposite. 7% Rich, 50% Middle Class. Your side is losing the hearts and minds. You have been harsh, nasty, contemptuous, you’ve lied, you mislead, and tormented people with your awful tactic of Character Assassination. Keep it up and Obama wins. My Mother in law. A life time GOPer is voting for Obama for those very reasons.

          • montanabill

            Obviously, you find the truth embarrassing. But it is the truth and it won’t change no matter how much it hurts you. What did Bush do to tank the economy? He had a Democrat congress and congress does the spending. Was it the financial guys who caused the damage? What were they selling? It was bundled bad mortgages.

            I understand you think you have sentiment on your side. It is largely the result of our education system dropping to 22nd in the world in science, 27th in math and 33rd in reading.

            Now, point out one example of a lie I have told you.

          • Ibsyboy

            No matter how many times you apologists repeat this myth, it ain’t going to come out any differently. Your guys tanked the economy. Man up. Accept the responsibility.

            Then yu won’t have to keep apologizing for a failed Administration. The GOP historically is always on the wrong side of the issues. All you guys know is blame.

            You bill a big pile of Horse shit, you step- in it, then you look around for someone t blame the stink on.

            It’s embarrassing to keep seeing the same old stories over and over. The victimization of the GOP. It is self inflicted.

            What a bunch of, to quote Bob Dylan, “wussies and pussies.”

          • montanabill

            So, in your universe, there was no housing bubble that burst.

          • Ibsyboy

            In my world there was an economic policy that allowed the housing market to blow up to the size of bursting. Via clever manipulation of the laws and the new laxity the Government oversight was providing.

          • montanabill

            In your world, did George Bush try to stop the madness and was he rebuffed by Barney Frank and a Democrat congress, who continued to double down on coercing banks to loan to people who couldn’t pay it back? Or was it George Bush who overrode the Congress to keep the bad paper flowing?

      • sigrid28

        montanabill is still dreaming that he was invited to that invitation-only, elegant breakfast Wednesday morning for high stakes donors with Mitt Romney on his yacht, the “Cracker Bay.”

  • This article coming from the Party of Race Baiting is ridiculous . The Article itself is Race Baiting . Boy you all are going to be shocked when Obama’s war on women backfires ..I predict Romney will make great inroads with the women vote . I mean women aren’t stupid . they have to realize they and blacks have fared the worse in the train wreck of Obama . They’re Unemployment numbers are through the roof . Meanwhile at the coming DNC Haj and Anti American Jihad you will show your respect for women by inviting the Muslim Brotherhood for a jummah prayer . Their record in regards to respecting women rocks right ? I mean burhkas honor rapes and stoning . Then you will have Slick Willie deliver the Keynote address . Whatever will he talk about ? Women issues and how to respect your wife while disrespecting the office you hold by screwing ugly interns ? I mean show some respect for the ofc for chrissakes if you’re going to screw around on your wife and you’re the President at least include someone befitting that role Like a Kennedy would . Ok after that show of respect for womens rights maybe you can have someone from Planned Parenthood explain why they were willing to help a women abort a baby if it was determined that the baby was a girl …Great respect there . However will Liberals balance the image of the Brotherhood with a 30 yr old Harvard Law Student who has no respect for herself and so sense of self responsibility all while telling us she want someone else to pay for HER lifestyle choices ? Moving right along who will play the race card first ..Al or Jesse …Or will it be Obama himself ..I mean since he can’t possibly run on his record and since he has made a career out of blaming others for his failures this wouldn’t be a stretch

    • Landsende

      Your comments just explained why women don’t trust teathuglicans. They want to take away her right to make decisions about her own body. You have no trouble having insurance pay for your little blue pill so you can impregnate a woman but don’t want her to be able to have birth control pills or the morning after pill. You want to cut healthcare, education, after school programs, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and daycare. All things that will help a woman after she is forced to have a child because you have taken away her right to decide. I’ve asked this question before of those who oppose a woman’s right to make her own health decisions. Are you personally willing to step up to the plate and help support these children financially and emotionally until they turn 18 so they don’t become a burden on the taxpayers? If your really concerned about that human life you want to save you won’t abandon it after its born, will you?

  • MBM

    Not gonna let our campaign be dictated by the facts…ain’t that the truth.

  • onedonewong

    By using the dog whistles stray dogs will now have a chance and not be eaten in the WH

  • “Coded-dog whistles” ??? And you critizize the “birthers”?” The “race-baiting” is almost entirely done by the Democrat Party, and the Dems. need to pander to minorities, only way to get their votes is by “promising” them everything, but by spreading the wealth, you inevetiably take from someone else, and the more sucessful Americans already pay a higher percentage in taxes, whereas the lower earners pay much less and get many Federal Government benefits, while actual middle-class Americans struggle without these benefits.

  • Ibsyboy

    This race is not between Obama & Romney. This race is between Democracy & Oligarchy.

    On one hand you have a politician, Obama, taking money from wealthy donors who agree with his policies.

    And another politician, Romney, who takes money from wealthy donors whose policies he agrees with.

  • Jonathan. Your article is great! You have hit the hammer home and I hope that common sense prevails in the voting process. It is so difficult to overcome bigotry and unfounded fear, but I am going to keep a positive outlook. 44 for 4 More!

  • This pale face abjures that Repug blaspheming of the South!

  • repugs republi-cannots con-job-servatives theo-con-job-conservatives

  • Another_Cat

    The welfare policy attack is not just false, which is bad enough, but the opposite of true! Th welfare reform referred to would have to say that a waiver granted allows the state to IGNORE requirements moving people into jobs; what it actually says is the state has to do BETTER than the fed in moving people from welfare into work, in order to qualify for the waiver. It would be “just” false if the waiver meant the state only had to do AS GOOD as the fed. This is one case where there are three possibilities, and the republican attack line is the furthest possibility from the truth.


  • Ibsyboy

    here is the new America you are so proud of promoting:
    Warehouses have sprouted up throughout Riverside and San Bernardino counties in California in recent years, with the area serving as a primary entry point for goods manufactured in Asia (ASIA!!) and destined for U.S. retail stores. In addition to a lot of new jobs, the growth of supply-chain work in Southern California has brought complaints of harsh working conditions, particularly for the temporary workers laboring on the bottom rung. Most of the striking workers (No Union) are what are known as “lumpers” — manual laborers who load and unload products from trucks and containers. Such workers often earn close to the minimum wage and have no benefits or reliable work schedules.

    In a class-action suit filed earlier this year, workers at a warehouse in the Inland Empire claimed a contractor had devised an “unlawful scheme” whereby the employees worked overtime without additional pay. Last year, a separate group of workers filed a suit against the same company, Schneider Logistics, claiming the company had shorted them on their pay. Both suits are still pending.

    “Priority number one for me is the water,” said Rodriquez, a forklift driver who’s been at the warehouse for ten months, working about 32 hours a week for $10 per hour. “We don’t have clean drinking water. We don’t have the proper equipment to work with. The equipment is broken and that puts our health and safety at risk.”

    Now who with juice is there to speak for these people. These are the kind of jobs you are talking about. These are the future jobs of America. It’s feudal. No benefits, Medicare and Food Stamps suggested by the employer. Now you plan to take away food stamps and Medicare. Leaving a person making $10.00 an hour to fend for his or her self.
    Compassionate Conservatism on display.

    These are really the American jobs of the future. Were heading back to pre-Depression Era America. When the Middle Class and for that matter the Working Class did not exist. It was the poor, the working Poor and the filthy Rich. That’s your vision for America.

    I can’t wait. When the Peasant’s Rise up, build more prisons?

  • Ibsyboy

    In my world George Bush fucked up the Warnings about attacks on the USA by Islamist Terrorists. He started 2 Wars, he oversaw a bad idea of Wall Street’s. He looked the other way re: Israel. He did nothing to further peace between Israel & the Palestinians. He underfunded important financial watch dog agencies. He was a disaster, and the fact he wasn’t at the Convention, n0 matter what the reasons were, he was the last sitting GOP president and his Party finds him toxic enough to not want him around. It’s not just me, it’s his own Party.
    History will not be kind to him.

  • Ibsyboy

    You really have to stop using such a broad brush, and then read what I write. You did it again, you put words in my mouth. “Just keep it simple. No profits, no U.S. leading the world. No middle class and no poor class equivalent to most of the world’s middle class. Every single one of us had the same opportunities. Some made good choices. Most didn’t. Very few of our 3-4 million millionaires inherited their money. They created something of value, including Sam Walton. He didn’t inherit money. He didn’t force anyone to work for him. He couldn’t force anyone to shop at his stores. I’m just wondering how you managed to grow up in the U.S. and know so little about how it works.” They USA once lead the world in income equality, you left that out. Why do you always leave out the social advancements of America. Becasue yo have been persuaded to believe they are the cause of our present situation. An element of Ameri ca that help spread democracy to the world, not just riches, but opportunity for ALL. The social movement of the 1930s helped this migration to America. Justice, fairness, no oppression and equality. 4 things now looked at by the Right as liberal silliness.

    I don’t recall suggesting any of the things in the above paragraph. “Every single one of us had the same opportunities” what planet are you presently living on. If that is so why did Stephen Girard (Girard College) leave the bulk of his fortune to the City of Philadelphia to build and operate a residential school for needy children from single-parent households. From grades one through 12, and awards a full scholarship with a yearly value of approximately $42,000 to every child admitted to the school. His vision as a school for poor, orphaned boys who had lost their fathers was unique in educating an entirely unserved population. Girard saw a chance to educate boys who might otherwise be lost and to prepare them for useful, productive lives. Now why did this extremely wealth man see; that every single one of us do not have the same opportunities. That comment on your part is ludicrous and naive. To bring it down to choices is the wort thing I ever heard.

    Bill Bain was a close friend of George Romney’s. Wouldn’t it be nice if in your; “we all have the same opportunities” myth, it included a rich father with contacts. Huh?

    And be able to go to private schools. What the hell are you smoking. I live in an “old money” Neighborhood, not one of the young people who grew up here would have the quality of life they have without haven’t been born here with financially capable parents.

    Your New America. Bain invested $27 million as part of a deal with other firms to acquire Dade International, a medical-diagnostics-equipment firm, from its parent company, Baxter International. Bain ultimately made nearly 10 times its money, getting back $230 million. But Dade wound up laying off more than 1,600 people and filed for bankruptcy protection in 2002, amid crushing debt and rising interest rates. The company, with Bain in charge, had borrowed heavily to do acquisitions, accumulating $1.6 billion in debt by 2000. The company cut benefits for some workers at the acquired firms and laid off others. When it merged with Behring Diagnostics, a German company, Dade shut down three U.S. plants. At the same time, Dade paid out $421 million to Bain Capital’s investors and investing partners.
    Do we really need this kind of business. It’s self serving.

  • Ibsyboy

    When was the last time you got a car loan from poor people, a mortgage from a poor person.
    Food prices, fuel prices. Pay the price or go to hell. We need food and gasoline. Corporations know this, but profit taking trumps social concern. You don’t need a gun when you have this kind of power? They put their foot on our neck, gas prices, and then let us up just as they start to lose money. People rely on large companies for just about everything. There is nothing you own that was not made by a wealthy company, or imported from China by a wealthy company. I was speaking metaphorically re: Owned by the wealthy. Every TV ad is from wealthy people trying to get you to consume goods made by Wealthy companies. We live in a Corporately controlled country. They control the economy, they control job opportunity. And I am being told that the historic wealth in America, is impeded by the POTUS. The Country is top heavy with wealth, and not a single drop has trickled down. Where are the jobs. Big Business does not need to employ people to make money, at least not at the salaries Americans are used to.

    We have a cop in our neighborhood with a big gun forcing us to stop at red lights. You buy into to much of the Right Wing Social Divide theory of power usurpation.

    By the way according to Mitt’s faith the second coming of Jesus will be in Missouri. What do you think? Buying that along with his plans for America?

  • Ibsyboy

    I get it you don;t like Democrats and Obama. I don’t dis like Republicans, I dislike their world view. That is anything the Liberals like the GOPers automatically hate. The environmental movement, hated by the GOPers. They Philosophically are apposed to the Liberals. Clean air and clean water. How much will it cost the Corporations. No dumping chemicals in the rivers. How much will it costs the Corporations. Dumping shit into the air. How mush will it cost the Corporations. defense spending. Military needs a new weapon. GOPers, OK! Liberals, Why do you need it? Military relaesae3 the need of the weapon to the defense industry. Prototypes need to be made, financial support form the Military. Multiple companies come up with a prototype. They all submits bids. GOPers & Liberals argue. GOPers call Liberals soft on defense. Project is awarded. Corporation X submits a budget. Corporation goes over budget. Need for weapon being made obsolete by new technology or lapsing need. F-22 good sample. Osprey another. GOP argues the Defense contractors is going to have to fire employees, and have it’s stock deminished. GOP decides Defense Contractor needs to be bailed out. And increase the appropriation for the cost over run and the now obsolete weapon.

    That is the philosophy I dislike. They are always on the side of Capital as you are, and diminish the value of the average American worker. The Corporations come first, and the average American can wait to catch the crumbs as they trickle down. You can not run an economy from the top down. The top drains revenue via demand for tax cuts, loopholes, exemptions. subsidies and other means of avoiding paying income tax. Romney over pays his 2011 return to increase his percentage. He was allowed to pay as little as 9%, but opted for 14%. Why would anyone pay 5% more in taxes? Some one running for President, that’s who. And why did it take so long to release it? Political tactic. The guy is a creep. The oil industry has been given Government money to help them find oil. They are now reaping profits of historical scale. And they still insist on the subsidies, and hang a sword of Damocles over the Congress, President and the publics’s heads if they dont get them. The oil industry is paert of the 47%.

    In the secret tqapes. Romney, with his Peeps, was comfortable to speak his mind, comfortable to let his Peeps know that he shares the GOPer view of the America they want. 47% of Americans are leeches, teat suckers, people with out any personal responsibility.

    And they have successfully sold that thinking to people like yourself, because they have made you think you are one of them. You’re not, my friend. All you are is a vote, and cheap labor.
    After Nov. 6th. You will be mothballed until they need your vote again.
    $50K for lunch beyond your pay scale? You have been played. You have bought the lie that America can not afford to take care of it’s people. Can not afford to offer Medical Care, Social Security, Safety Nets for millions of children born into poverty. It’s blame, blame, blame. It’s always the bottom line. Corporate Ameirca wants what Romney will bring to America, more power for Corporate Ameirca. The Unions didn’t sink the auto Industry, margins did. Margins that created an inferior product Americans stopped buying. Profit taking, trumped a good product. Why isn’t that time period in America interesting to the GOP. A time when employment was high, the American auto industry was a monster. Purchasing power was strong. Wages were high, the Middle Class had clout, Working people had clout. Once the power started to shift to the employers, employment went down, wages flattened out, consumption slowed, people worked more hours. Unemployment went up. Production mysteriously went up with fewer workers, Profits went up, wages stagnated. All because of a lapsed responsibility on the part of the GOP to the American worker, and more interest in the employer gaining more power. Economic equality is a sinful thing. The employee should not share in the rewards of a successful business, because in doing so the bottom line is affected.
    The employer has to be satisfied with multi-millions instead of Billions. With the amazing increase in Billionaires in America the corollary is high unemployment and low wages. How friggin’ much is enough. And I am not talking about money, I’m talking about power and influence over the Government to have it respond to what they need over and above the needs of America’s citizens. Profit taking has become the number one value that the GOP is obsessed with protecting. And I do not mean profit making. Taking implies my dislike for it by it’s very name, Profit TAKING. There is always a victim to Profit taking. Fired workers, plant shutdowns, moving jobs overseas, wage reduction, pension reduction, benefit reduction. I’ve said it before I don not trust wealthy people and Profit Takers. They are myopic when it comes to the bottom line. The have no nation state loyalty. Where ever the money is is where they and their loyalty are. It is not a good way to run a country. Millions of Americans rely on a fair wage, benefits, a decent retirement after years of helping a Corporation to succeed. And yes, they deserve a piece of the Rock. Why not. Because it affects the desired bottom line. Bah! Here we are, exactly where they want us. Upset workers and unemployed. Just what they need to pressure the electorate to give them more control and the ability to amass wealth, not to be shared with the populace. Jobs, fair wages, a healthy Middle and Working class, that’s redistribution of wealth. The very redistribution which grew the economy and the Middle and Working Classes. And made us the envy of the World. Now you are trying to persuade me that the path away from that and towards a Corporate state is best for America. I will never by an economic policy that favors Profit Taking as a means of success. It is a small club reserved for those who are already there and their children. I refuse to pay to have that club sustained.

  • Ibsyboy

    Remember when it was a big deal to be a Negro and the POTUS? Before it was considered not of big such a big deal for other reasons.

  • Ibsyboy

    If were raise by a loving family we forgive. It not we never forget.