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‘White Genocide’: Debunking The Latest Breitbart-Promoted Racist Buzzword

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‘White Genocide’: Debunking The Latest Breitbart-Promoted Racist Buzzword

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White Genocide, Neo Nazi, White Nationalist

Reprinted with permission from AlterNet.

The false claim that there is a genocide against white people is a key rallying cry used by organized white supremacists to justify racist violence targeting people of color, Muslims and Jews. With the rise of Donald Trump, who promptly appointed white nationalist Steve Bannon as his chief strategist, those forces will soon have a direct line to the White House.

George Ciccariello-Maher, an associate professor of international politics and decolonization at Philadelphia-based Drexel University, recently found himself at the center of a smear campaign for mocking the concept of white genocide. On December 24, Ciccariello-Maher posted a tweet stating, “all I want for Christmas is white genocide.” He explained the tweet in a later statement: “For those who haven’t bothered to do their research, ‘white genocide’ is an idea invented by white supremacists and used to denounce everything from interracial relationships to multicultural policies (and most recently, against a tweet by State Farm Insurance). It is a figment of the racist imagination, it should be mocked, and I’m glad to have mocked it.”

Ciccariello-Maher’s tweet and other social media commentary was soon reported by the white nationalist publication Breitbart, which ran an article by Warner Todd Huston referring to the scholar’s Twitter feed as “hateful” and “obnoxious.” The comments section of the article included at least one death threat against Ciccariello-Maher, as well as hateful messages targeting LGBTQ people and African Americans. The story quickly spread to Reddit and 4chan, and before long George Ciccariello-Maher had become became the target of a coordinated campaign to contact his employer, Drexel University. Ciccariello-Maher said he awoke Christmas morning to death threats targeting him and his family.

But Drexel, instead of defending Ciccariello-Maher, appeared to be swayed by the pressure it received and publicly condemned his social media remarks as “utterly reprehensible” and “deeply disturbing.” The university’s statement did not include any mention of the white supremacist origins of the term Ciccariello-Maher was mocking—an omission that extended to numerous press outlets which covered the story.

Scholars of fascism and the racist right told AlterNet such omission is dangerous in the era of Trump, with implications far beyond Ciccariello-Maher. “This phrase and its broad dissemination these days is helping shape what Trumpism is politically and also, by its very framing, is something that can authorize any kind of violence against people of color,” Joseph Lowndes, an associate professor of political science at the University of Oregon in Eugene, told AlterNet. “We should mock it, expose it and delegitimize it.”

Term with a disgraceful history

“Fears of the decline of the so-called white race have been around for a long time, with different iterations,” Lowndes said. “In the American context, it goes back to fears of slave revolts. You can see it in Thomas Jefferson’s notes, when he describes slavery as holding a ‘wolf by the ears.’ He claimed that once you let the wolf go, it will turn on you and devour you.”

Such racist concepts were used as salvo against movements to abolish slavery. “In the 19th century, before the Civil War, you can look at how people who were anti-abolition were warning everyone about an impending genocide if slaves were liberated,” said Alexander Reid Ross, who teaches in the geography department at Portland State University and is the author of the forthcoming bookAgainst the Fascist Creep.

In undated remarks published in a book of his writings and speeches, the abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison expressed his outrage at such baseless fear-mongering:

Before I proceed any further, let me call attention to a remarkable exemplification of the insincerity and effrontery of the anti-abolition party in this country, as manifested this day. What have they not done, for the last five years, to cast odium upon our principles and measures? Have they not ridiculed without mercy, our demand for the immediate abolition of slavery as wild, chimerical, monstrous? Has not the idea of ‘turning loose’ so many unlettered, penniless, homeless creatures, seemingly filled them with horror? Have they not a thousand times declared, that a sudden emancipation would fill the land with blood, and be the signal for a war of extermination?… Though they have been prophesying ‘evil, and only evil, and that continually,’ of any and every scheme of immediate emancipation; though they have advanced it as a self-evident proposition, that bloodshed and ruin must be the inevitable consequence of letting all the oppressed go free at once, it seems, after all, that they knew nothing about the matter. What was beyond all doubt with them, a short time since, is now full of uncertainty: they wait for intelligence!

Following the Civil War, false claims about threats to the “white race” influenced the rising eugenics movement, Ross explained. This racist outlook was captured in the 1916 book, The Passing of the Great Race, by eugenicist Madison Grant, who was a personal friend of Theodore Roosevelt’s. Adolf Hitler was a fan of Grant’s and often quoted from his work.

One can trace a direct line from the early 20th-century eugenicists to the racist movements of today. As the Southern Poverty Law Center points out, the Pioneer Fund was started in 1937 by Wickliffe Draper, a textile magnate, with the express purpose of pursuing “race betterment” by promoting the genes of people “deemed to be descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original thirteen states prior to the adoption of the Constitution.” The SPLC notes, “The Pioneer Fund has supported many of the leading Anglo-American race scientists of the last several decades as well as anti-immigration groups such as the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR).”

Trump’s choice for attorney general, Jeff Sessions, “regularly” attends events hosted by FAIR, according to the SPLC, which has classified the organization as a hate group since 2007. Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, a leader of Trump’s transition team, has served as counsel to FAIR’s legal arm, according to SPLC. “We can see how the Trump administration is only a stone’s throw from this kind of angsty rhetoric and the people who advance practical ‘solutions’ to these made-up problems,” said Ross.

According to Ross, fears of white genocide re-emerged “after World War II, with the decolonization process and war of liberation in Algeria, all the way through the liberation of Zimbabwe, then called Rhodesia, as well as during the anti-apartheid movement.”

Ross points to European intellectuals from the “European New Right” as playing a key role in “normalizing the notion of white genocide, arguing that an apartheid-style racial separation would preserve cultural integrity against ‘ethnocidal’ multi-culturalism and liberal democracy.”

Lowndes emphasized that in the U.S. context, fear-mongering over the supposed decline of the white race picked up steam after the civil rights and black freedom movements. “There was a return of language about what is going to happen to white people if black people get full rights.”

‘They are the actual racists’

Sophie Bjork-James, a researcher at Vanderbilt University with expertise in conservative social movements, told AlterNet that the meme of “white genocide” has become an “increasingly popular frame” over the past 10 years, because “it frames whites as victims in a very emotionally resonant way. It seems like it is getting a much broader audience, which is scary because that can make it seem like it’s a legitimate term. Some mainstream media outlets will use the term without referencing its white supremacist origins.”

Bjork-James emphasized that the concept of white genocide “dangerously deflects away from what’s actually happening in terms of economic stratification.” She explained, “If we look at how white people understand contemporary race relations, a huge percent think whites now experience more discrimination than people of color. It is not just white nationalists who see white people as victims of racial discrimination.”

“On the one hand, our society is completely structured by racism that privileges white people, and many white people don’t see that,” she continued. “I think it’s really telling that the U.S. was founded on the genocide of Native Americans, and now white people claim they are experiencing genocide.”

Last year, a group calling itself the White Genocide Project temporarily erected a billboard in Springvale, Alabama which stated “Diversity Means Chasing Down the Last White Person” with the hashtag #whitegenocide on the bottom. One of the individuals behind the billboard told SPLC that the group took inspiration from the prominent segregationist Bob Whitaker. Widely influential among white supremacists, Whitaker authored an article that claimed “Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.”

Chillingly, baseless themes of white victimization were present in the manifesto of Dylann Roof, who massacred nine African-Americans churchgoers at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina in June 2015.

Reflecting on his experiences over the past several days, George Ciccariello-Maher noted that adherents of the mythical white genocide present the real danger. “White racists openly support the idea of a pure, white country led by white males, as Richard Spencer recently put it,” Ciccariello-Maher told AlterNet. “For them, anything is white genocide, from multiculturalism to intermarriage. They are the actual racists who uphold the ideas that have been used to carry out actual genocide.”

Sarah Lazare is a staff writer for AlterNet. A former staff writer for Common Dreams, she coedited the book About Face: Military Resisters Turn Against War. Follow her on Twitter at @sarahlazare.

IMAGE: A member of the Ku Klux Klan gesture as he yells holding a Confederate flag during a rally at the statehouse in Columbia, South Carolina July 18, 2015.  REUTERS/Chris Keane¨

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91 Comments

  1. Godzilla December 28, 2016

    This article is a joke, like most garbage the Left puts out. There won’t be any “white genocide”. Ya’ll don’t have the balls to try or the courage to accomplish it. Liberal’s are loud mouthed cowards, little bullies who have done nothing but whine like little girls who had their lollipop stolen be the dog. Whimps, cowards, losers, snowflakes, sissies and limpdick’s. The women are butt ugly and the guys are little girly men. Sickening. Leave, just leave, you would fit in much better in Europe.

    Reply
    1. Aaron_of_Portsmouth December 28, 2016

      No, Godzilla—You’re the joke but you’re too dim-witted to notice. Not only do you not understand the basics of reading, but you’re unable to envision a wider scope encompassed by the above article.
      This is a clear sign of a pathetic coward who snipes from behind the skirt of his mother or auntie, who has no inclination nor ability for deep thinking and to learn about the history of the country. Your only recourse in repsonse to articles like this is to issue a nihilistic “fatwa” pledging your allegiance to racism and all the dregs mixed in with this brew you drink on a daily basis.
      Your attempts to deflect from the article are fruitless and a waste of your time—but then again, waking up every morning is a waste of your time. Best that you retire to an underground crypt with the other dead. That way you can have a private conversation with them and they won’t respond or rebuke you in any way.

      As for those “little girls” you’re so worked up about, slinking out of sight under a rock would give you safety from all those imagined women and girls floating in your tiny head and who scare the bejeesus out of you.

      Your parents in this life and/or the next world bewail your current condition and wonder where did they go wrong.

      Zippy the Conehead has more intelligence, nobility, and courage than you.

      1. The lucky one December 29, 2016

        :”No, Godzilla—You’re the joke but you’re too dim-witted to notice.”

        You could have let it go at that. Even that is probably too complex a thought for Goonzilla.

        1. Aaron_of_Portsmouth December 29, 2016

          Thanks, and you’re right. I went on for the benefit of others unable to have a voice in these matters, or who want to say something but don’t feel comfortable in speaking out.
          What I say is not for my benefit as you already discerned, but on behalf of millions unable to express themselves with the same confidence as you or I.

          1. The lucky one December 29, 2016

            Best wishes for a joyful new year. Keep speaking your truth. We all get carried away sometimes and that’s ok.

      2. Sand_Cat December 29, 2016

        I agree with your disdain, but dislike imitating the right-wing zealots who proceed to make all sorts of pronouncements about the personal lives of those who dare to disagree with them, when all they have are the others’ posts.
        I agree with The Lucky One: all the stuff beyond the initial response seem beneath you.
        I generally find your posts intelligent and rational, with a degree of restraint that makes them more powerful than – say – my own. Don’t let the stupid drag you down.

        1. Aaron_of_Portsmouth December 29, 2016

          I need to restrain myself more, especially with the likes of Godzilla.
          But the atrocities in Syria, and assaults here at home against the weak, the ascendancy of racism, the assault on the image of America by those who claim to be Americans deserve the strongest rebuke on occasion.

          But, I still need to restrain myself. in doing so.

          1. latebloomingrandma December 29, 2016

            You’re a good guy, Aaron.

          2. Aaron_of_Portsmouth January 1, 2017

            I try to be. The onslaught of the “Toadies for Trump” is quite a task for you and me, but we’re up to it, right?
            Besides, these toadies are good practice to keep us mentally alert, and a useful challenge to hone our abilities.

            Happy New Year! And best wishes in dealing with the new batch of demons about to be unleashed.

    2. Thoughtopsy December 28, 2016

      Thanks for failing to address anything useful.
      Again.

    3. FireBaron December 29, 2016

      Look in a mirror lately? The only ones doing the pushing and shoving are D-bags like yourself, Box and others of your ilk. We attempt to have an intelligent discussion regarding issues and you come here with your Trump-delivered word storm designed to intimidate anyone who does not agree with you. Should you ever decide to undertake a self-examination, you will probably find that half of your “well considered” opinions and beliefs are at complete and total odds with the other half.

    4. charleo1 December 29, 2016

      And, if I hear you right, you see yourself, as a John Wayne, or Rambo type?
      But don’t confuse that person with moral purpose, a generous heart, and the courage to stand with the underdog, with the wimps of the World. Don’t make the mistake of misinterpreting empathy, and kindheartedness for weakness.
      And more to the point here, it’s not the Liberals fault, or the Black man’s fault, or really anyone’s fault but your own, you never bothered to better yourself. And now you’re getting older, the World is moving past you, you’re bitter, and guess who needs a scapegoat? Guess who the true loud mouthed coward is here. Whimpering for his candy stick he has done nothing to deserve. But waited around all his life for somebody to walk up and hand it to him for no other reason than because he’s white.

    5. The lucky one December 29, 2016

      I’d suggest you leave but I don’t know where you would fit in since the Nazi Reich is kaput.

      “There won’t be any “white genocide”. You’re right about that since there never has been. It’s all been directed toward darker skinned people. Of course the so-called “races” are far more mixed than nut jobs like you care to acknowledge. I suggest you get a DNA genealogy screen. You may be quite surprised and that will no doubt send you over the edge and you may do everyone a favor by removing your obviously defective genes from the pool.

    6. RED December 29, 2016

      So how much do you get paid? Or are you really really as pathetic as your comments suggest?

    7. luckyone January 24, 2017

      hD:IDVUJ

  2. Aaron_of_Portsmouth December 28, 2016

    Racialism, that philosophy borne out of fear of people with different skin colors and a sense of superiority over such, and having its genesis in Central and Western Europe is now enboldened by Trump’s rise as the wannabe Emperor of America.

    It’s not surprising to hear the echoes of the early eugenicists, and the British settlers in early America, who began to formalize and make as public policy, the separation of those not “well-born” and the enact,emt of sterilization laws to prevent the unwanted and undesirable from propagating and degrading the “quality” and precious bodily fluids of the preferred category of human beings. (Several states would go on to ratify and adopt forced sterilization, including such states as Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Washington state, California).

    Trump has awakened a largely dormant monster, unleashing a wave(overt and subtle) of hate touching the lives of all here—and many abroad as well, directly and indirectly.

    Trump, Trumpism, Racialism, Nativism, are scourges that must be extirpated in a respectable and lawful manner before the “weed” and other weeds like these spread further.

    The book “Three Generations No Imbeciles” chronicles quite well the growth of the spiritual disease afflicting humans wanting to eradicate others based on crack-pot applications of Mendelian Heriditary Principles and Social Darwinism.

    Reply
    1. PolishKnightUSA December 28, 2016

      Versus eradicating others based upon notions of “diversity” and “tolerance” and “privilege”. But since it’s good, it’s not really eradication.

      The professor should move to Malmo, Sweden where I’m sure he’ll be welcomed with open arms…

      1. Sand_Cat December 28, 2016

        “Eradicating”?
        Guess it’s pretty clear where you slink on this.

        1. PolishKnightUSA December 28, 2016

          Sounds like I’m a “problem” that professor genocide jokester needs to “extirpate”, yes?

          Oh, wait, he can’t wander more than 10 miles off of campus without his coloring books or emotional support animal lest he collapse hysterically along with the other snowflakes. Haha!

          This is why most of the, er, incidents of gratitude the migrant refugees show for their benefactors happen in blue state regions where the locals are less, er, “prepped” than red stater folks.

          Malmo is wonderful this time of year. Perfect for covering up!

          “By order of the prophet
          We ban that boogie sound
          Degenerate the faithful
          With that craazy Casbah sound
          But the Bedouin they brought out the electric camel drum
          The local guitar picker got his guitar-picking thumb
          As soon as the Shareef had cleared the square
          They began to wail
          Shareef don’t like it!
          Rock the Casbah, rock the Casbah!
          Shareef don’t like it!
          Rock the Casbah, Rock the Casbah!”

          1. The lucky one December 29, 2016

            Quoting the lyrics of a rock song to “prove” your what? I don’t any see any real points in your rant.

          2. PolishKnightUSA December 29, 2016

            So you win by default because you can’t “see” my point. Yeah, that shows me, I guess.

          3. The lucky one December 29, 2016

            What is there to win here? I doubt anybody can “show” you anything. You would have to have your eyes open for that to happen. I do get a chuckle though when I see a white man in this country whining about being put upon by those he derisively calls “snowflakes”. But I guess casting yourself as a victim justifies your bigotry, in your eyes anyway.

          4. PolishKnightUSA December 29, 2016

            Versus bourgeoisie white women casting themselves as victims and “whining?” Or half white presidents who was raised by his white grandparents casting himself as a victim?

            Heck, isn’t leftism supposed to be about “inclusivity?” (Hint: It can’t include EVERYONE! 🙂

            In the meantime, I’m celebrating! Yeah, I’ll be whining on Jan 20th. Whining a party!

            Here’s another song (kind of) perhaps you’ll recognize it. One of my faves from the 80’s:

            You go to school and learn about dive-ver-city!
            Then you feel guilt but blame it on me!
            So you say “We gotta get rid of whites!”
            Then you cry when Trump wins and fill out color-ing books!

            You gotta fight!
            For your right!
            To wear a burrrrr-ka…

          5. The lucky one December 30, 2016

            “Half white”, what a moronic and meaningless term. Have you had your DNA evaluated for genetic make-up? You may be very surprised but then that would be a scientific proof and judging from your comments you probably have no understanding of or respect for science.

            “leftism”? Don’t know what that is. Seems like a term used by illiterates to label something they don’t understand. It’s certainly mush easier than using evidence or logic to argue a point. You just call the person a lefty and believe that in itself delegitimizes their argument.

            Maybe you can perform at the Duck’s inauguration. He seems to be having trouble getting people. Come back to me in a year and tell me how Trump’s presidency has improved your life. It will be a very short post I’m sure. That’s assuming Trump lasts a year.

            Haven’t heard that song. Seems like something from the washed up and never very talented Ted Nugent. I’m sure he is willing to play for Trump but probably even Donnie has better taste than that.

            You don’t need to know anything about diversity or other people’s cultures. Just treat each human being with respect, you know “The Golden Rule”. Look it up.

          6. PolishKnightUSA December 30, 2016

            The term moronic is often used in a moronic fashion. Moronic has a very specific clinical definition. Why not just use the term “retarded?” Oh, wait, that’s not PC. The term moron is often used in debate by someone who wants to call someone who disagrees wtih him stupid because since he thinks he’s right, then the other person is an bigot for disagreeing with him. Because the other person’s rightness is wrong while his right is right.

            It reminds me of the George Carlin routine where he’s driving and calling everyone faster than him “maniacs” and slower than him “idiots” and how amazing it is he can get home with everyone else on the road being maniacs and idiots. Carlin had a sense of humor about it but most people are, well, morons who are unaware of their own hypocritical bigotry.

            But that wouldn’t apply to you, would it? 🙂

            Anyhoo, that segways into your own moronic statement that you don’t “know” what the term “leftism” is and conjecture that it must be due to illiteracy and lack of evidence or logic (neither of which you bothered to provide but since you assume you’re right, why would you need to?) You apparently don’t know what a commonly used term (including in Europe) means and this is supposed to make you appear to be more literate? OK…. got it.

            For amusement, I typed leftism into google and found that the definitions were overly obtuse and vague and not terribly relevant to what a leftist typically espouses from my own ancedocal experience. I suppose you have a point that I use the term to deligitimize people (as compared to moron) because, IMO, leftists aren’t morons so much as insane. For your amusement or edification, here’s my layman definition:

            Leftist: A self-important douchebag who claims to be progressive and rebellious but instead clings to a status quo dictated to him by the trashy media and teachers in that Western Europe is the ideal society that racist America needs to conform to and this can only be achieved by replacing European people with non-Europeans. When something goes wrong, they threaten to leave America for more whiter places that are less racist and full of bigoted hypocrites. They always back down because they are too stupid to learn a different European language.

            That’s the working definition I use.

            I’ll be at the inauguration and Jackie Evancho will be singing and her albums have taken off after the announcement. You do have a point that Trump couldn’t get A talent for his shows and this includes his campaign but the crowds came to see…

            him.

            While Hillary had A-grade talent and crowds showing up to see them and then… they’d leave when she came up to speak.

            Frank Sinatra supposedly had a similar problem as Hillary. Shecky Greene opened for him and apparently did such a great job that people liked him better than Sinatra so he had Shecky beat up. Hillary actually seemed to thank the celebrities that overshadowed her.

            Finally, regarding the Golden Rule: Treating someone as I want to be treated means that I expect people to conform to what I want out of life. Indeed, the left think that tolerance is about people doing what they want and those who disagree with their worldview are bigots (failing to see how that is the meta-extreme of bigotry). The left is now made up of Islamicists who stone gays to death and put women into burkas, man hating feminists, Jews, La Raza, and snobby white elitists (dying off, thankfully). Yeah, that’s diversity alright. Like the breakup of Yugoslavia.

            FYI, Fight for your right to party is from the Beastie Boys. Perhaps they would play the inauguration…

          7. The lucky one December 30, 2016

            Well I didn’t call you a moron but I stand by the statement that “half white” is moronic when applied to a human being. Where have I said you were a bigot because you disagreed with me? Some people I disagree with are bigots and some are not. Using your term “half white” is an example of bigoted language.

            As Carlin points out we each see things through our own lens and certainly I am no exception. But it takes a very warped perspective to believe that a person who has both European and African genes is anyway inferior to someone with just a European genetic endowment. If that’s not what you meant then why is the term relevant to any discussion about Obama’s presidency?

            You refer to my claim to not know what the term “leftism” is as moronic and say it is a commonly used term (including in Europe). Then you acknowledge “that the definitions are overly obtuse and vague and not terribly relevant to what a leftist typically espouses”. I’d say you just reinforced my point.

            You do have a point that I use the term moron in a similar fashion but at least we are clear that moronic = stupid whereas there is no clarity on “leftism.

            I don’t know anyone that conforms to your definition of leftist. Not even those who I find to be too extreme and occasionally moronic in their statements. Some do say they will leave and then renege but I’m not leaving and have never said I would. I don’t leave just because a new demagogue is taking office. If I was going to do that I’d have been gone long ago.

            Given that Ms. Evancho is a virtual unknown it’s not surprising that the publicity Trump gave her improved her sales. Hell she may even be the headliner.

            “While Hillary had A-grade talent and crowds showing up to see them and then… they’d leave when she came up to speak.” I doubt you’ve ever been to one of her speeches so that is just BS. It wouldn’t bother me if it was true as I am not a Clinton fan.

            “Treating someone as I want to be treated means that I expect people to conform to what I want out of life.” No it means behaving towards people the way you would like to treated. In the case you use it means realizing that others pursuit of happiness is as valid as your own.

            “Indeed, the left think that tolerance is about people doing what they want and those who disagree with their worldview are bigots (failing to see how that is the meta-extreme of bigotry).” And you don’t see that by your own criteria “those who disagree with their worldview are bigots” that your statement is bigoted.

            Your last statement about the make-up of the Left is both moronic and bigoted. Congratulations you hit a double.

            “the Beastie Boys. Perhaps would play the inauguration…” If they need the publicity maybe they would.

          8. PolishKnightUSA December 30, 2016

            In answer to your question regarding half-white being relevant to Obama’s presidency: A simple google search can produce numerous leftist quotes praising Obama’s election as “historical” due to him being “African American”. Ironically, being half white would make him inferior to that claim because of his white ancestry.

            I find it amusing that most of the time the term moronic is used, it’s to insult someone as being stupid merely for disagreeing with them even when the accuser is not addressing the point the “stupid” person just made. In other words, stupid people like to call other people stupid.

            I find it amazing you claim to not know someone who conforms to my definition of leftist because I rarely find someone who doesn’t conform to it. It’s strange that I’ve been to their utopia (Sweden, Western Europe) and actually really do like it. I was just thinking about telling you this because it’s been tit-for-tat and it must fascinate someone to learn that I think many elements of economic socialism would be great, but the problem is the ethnic cleansing part of national socialism (Germany, 1930’s era) and anti-white, male political correctness. I spent a lot of time in the former soviet republics and it’s interesting that their economics was messed up, but culturally somewhat better. It’s strange that the left regards Putin as a bad guy and calls their states blue and here I am a right winger and I dig Soviet art. But then again, at one time, the left was buddies with the KKK and Southern states and then in 10 years totally reversed itself. It’s neat to understand just how it all came to be and why.

            The “realize that others pursuit of happiness is as valid as your own” sounds like unicorn fart BS. Really?!?! So if a KKK member pursues a happiness of an African American free South, is that as valid as yours? The fact is that we can’t ever really be fair or reasonable by one golden rule or the other since there’s a lot of people who define reality in terms of what they want is great, and what you want sucks. They may not even be jerks but just have that perspective. That doesn’t mean I set out to be a jerk, but I do keep these things in mind as I get older.

            Regarding my meta statement on bigotry being bigoted. Er, no for this reason: I don’t make a pretense of being a super tolerant, golden-rule, enlightened wiseman like leftists, in my experience, appear to do. I’m not a bigot accusing others of being bigots because, and this may amaze you to hear someone has this worldview, I don’t think my worldview is this holy, Allah-style epiphany (you know, like the newest member of the leftist coalition :-), that is absolutely right all the time. I have more pedestrian motivations and prefer to drag others down to the muck with me (so to speak) rather than elevate myself above others because… I think the muck has a beauty of its own. Kind of.

            Finally, calling my statement regardign the make-up of the left as moronic and bigoted is simply not accurate. Do you deny the the left is now made up of Islamicists, Jews, and La Raza? You use the term moronic and bigoted to disparage statements that sound offensive. But that statement wasn’t stupid. Do you deny that the left is now more comforting to those groups than the right? And you use the term “bigot”, er, moronically in that bigot describes someone whose unwilling to be swayed from their view. But this describes a person’s temperment rather than their specific statement.

            It’s neat that I understand leftism and their vernacular better than most leftists but perhaps because I seek to understand them to defeat them.

            Have a happy new year!

          9. The lucky one December 31, 2016

            You do have a point about just calling someone else’s statement moronic without explaining why. Sometimes it’s hard because the statements are not so much moronic as nonsensical and lacking enough substance for a reply. The best response then is to just move on but sometimes emotion takes over.

            Being African-American does not equate to being “half white”. Many African-Americans are mixed race, probably most given the history of slavery, and many “whites” are as well though for I think obvious reasons it has been hidden and they may not know it themselves. An African-American is just someone who has ancestors from Africa but is now an American citizen. The term says nothing more than that.

            “I find it amazing you claim to not know someone who conforms to my definition of leftist because I rarely find someone who doesn’t conform to it.” Well I think we tend to see what we expect to see and projection is a common cognitive habit that nearly all of us are guilty of on occasion. Maybe it is just the hyperbole in your definition.

            I’m sure you consider me a leftist. In fact some of the posters here, Hillary fans, have accused me of being too much of a purist because I didn’t see her as a good candidate though I do see Trump as a narcissistic incompetent cretin and real danger to America. IMO Clinton is not a leftist. Her hawkishness and pandering to banksters and corporations is much more a rightist trait in my view.
            “I think many elements of economic socialism would be great” Can you say which ones?

            “but the anti-white, male political correctness.” I don’t see that myself. I think that when one has lived in a culture that has favored whites that the loss of that privilege seems like oppression.

            I don’t think seeing Putin as the thug that he is makes an appreciation of Russian art unlikely.

            “But then again, at one time, the left was buddies with the KKK and Southern states and then in 10 years totally reversed itself.” I don’t believe that is true. It was the Democratic during and after the Civil War, not leftists, who were racists. It is a mistake to equate leftism with the DemocratsI think you are right though that pretty much the ideology of the two parties has reversed itself since those times.

            I agree that my explanation of the “Golden Rule” is inadequate. I think that’s unavoidable in a platform like this. I think the brief nature of comments lead to a lot of misinterpretation and seeming opposition that a longer discussion would resolve. I respect the fact that you were willing carry on the discussion.

            “I have more pedestrian motivations and prefer to drag others down to the muck with me (so to speak) rather than elevate myself above others because… I think the muck has a beauty of its own. Kind of.”

            Not sure I understand that but I’ll take it as you want to be honest in expressing your thought without regard for PC or how someone takes it. I think I am somewhat the same but as I said above it leads to a lot of friction and misunderstanding unless one is willing to maintain the dialogue.

            “Do you deny the left is now made up of Islamicists, Jews, and La Raza?”

            I see no Islamists in the left that I inhabit unless you use that term for anyone who opposes the demonization of Muslims. There have always been Jews on the Left, possibly because of the discrimination against them that used to be very common. There are also many Jews on the right, Sheldon Adelson comes to mind. I believe La Raza is a group that fights for Latinos and yes they are more likely to find support on the left than on the right.

            I define a bigot as someone who assigns inferiority to someone else and is intolerant of their views. My experience is that most bigots are rather stupid. For example white supremacists are among the stupidest people I have ever seen and it always amazes me how they can believe themselves superior to anyone. I also think someone can make a bigoted statement out of ignorance rather than malice.

            “I understand leftism and their vernacular better than most leftists but perhaps because I seek to understand them to defeat them.” How do define defeating leftists?

            Have a happy new year yourself!

            “We must learn to live together as brothers or we will perish together as fools” – MLK

          10. PolishKnightUSA December 31, 2016

            It’s funny that you redefined moronic as nonsensical and then came up with this:

            “Many African-Americans are mixed race, probably most given the history of slavery, and many “whites” are as well though for I think obvious reasons it has been hidden and they may not know it themselves.”

            and then next: “I think that when one has lived in a culture that has favored whites that the loss of that privilege seems like oppression.”

            Which is classical leftism. Try this: replace the word “white” with “Jew” and see how it sounds. Or try the logic that if African Americans are culturally violent then they might view apartheid or segregation as oppression.

            In any case, your inability to see how telling working class whites that they have been “privileged” and are whining about losing their privileges somehow doesn’t make them rush out to register Democrat and vote for Bernie doesn’t make you moronic, IMO, but rather a kind of insanity like a hamster at the treadmill. You just don’t “get” it not I think due to stupidity but rather you using your intelligence to rationalize the irrational.

            But sure, in an answer to another question of yours, I do like a lot of things about classical socialism (going back a century). For example, the space program in the 1960’s was government getting some serious stuff done. I think that the government robbing from the oligarchs (whom I couldn’t care less about) and paying for free education for the middle class, I’m on board with that man. But the thing is, if you’re going to shove me under a bus and tell me how “privileged” I am, I don’t see much point in you robbing the rich and telling me…

            I’m “rich” and gotta give up my trailer.

            I even made up my own joke (tell me if you think it’s funny)

            Q) What does a leftist tell someone after he throws them under the bus?
            A) You’re so selfish and ungrateful!

            And this kind of happened in the USSR too when Uncle Joe and Lenin starved small farmers to death not for being rich but rather because they might distrust him (you would think, right? 🙂 By the same token, perhaps the one element of white supremecy the left certainly agrees with is that white folks, even in western European socialist utopias, are just too “uppity” to be good socialists. What’s funny is that the loyal Stalinists helping to kill others also were thrown under the bus eventually, so to speak, where Stalin had special back doors installed on their apartments for late night pick ups. So up in the Northeast, Bernie got votes from the few remaining white guys while in the rest of the country, the non-whites said Hillary was better.

            So there you go. You ran out of “privileged” folks to throw under the bus.

            If you want to play with the definition of leftist and say that they aren’t necessarily party bound, I’ll go with that. Really. I also think the right is now changing with “alt right” viewpoints that the left doesn’t fully understand including economic populism as I mention above while Hillary is in bed with capitalist cronies.

            Regarding the stereotypical stupid white supremacist: Many are these are that way due to historical poverty (you know, the privileged ones). Ironically, your definition of bigotry, and I quote: “someone who assigns inferiority to someone else and is intolerant of their views” applies well to you when you label someone as stupid and privileged and deny them an education via race preferences and dismiss their viewpoints. Doesn’t that seem like projection to you?

            Finally, regarding stupidity. Jews tend to vote leftist and in the end, have resulted in increasing anti-semitism in Europe and the USA from their new Islamic friends and The Race (La Raza) “fights” against African Americans for privileges (or reparations) along with other new leftist groups. So in the end, they have lowered their own standard of living. As Forrest Gump would put it: Stupid is as stupid does. Why have leftists who threatened to leave America after Trump won not settled down in Malmo, Mexico, or other “Diverse” regions of the world?

            PS: MLK. That’s the guy who said we should judge people on character rather than skin color, right? If only that applied to affirmative action…

          11. The lucky one January 1, 2017

            “It’s funny that you redefined moronic as nonsensical and then came up with this:” No I didn’t define moronic as nonsensical but actually distinguished between the two but I guess that didn’t fit your narrative so you ignored it, classic right wing tactic. Something can be moronic but clearly stated with well defined points. Nonsensical refers to a statement has no understandable points.

            Cases in point: My statements
            1- “Many African-Americans are mixed race, probably most given the history of slavery, and many “whites” are as well though for I think obvious reasons it has been hidden and they may not know it themselves.”
            2-“I think that when one has lived in a culture that has favored whites that the loss of that privilege seems like oppression.”

            You may consider them moronic if you wish but you had no trouble deciphering my meaning.

            Now this is nonsensical:
            “Finally, regarding stupidity. Jews tend to vote leftist and in the end, have resulted in increasing anti-semitism in Europe and the USA from their new Islamic friends and The Race (La Raza) “fights” against African Americans for privileges (or reparations) along with other new leftist groups. So in the end, they have lowered their own standard of living. As Forrest Gump would put it: Stupid is as stupid does. Why have leftists who threatened to leave America after Trump won not se ttled down in Malmo, Mexico, or other “Diverse” regions of the world?”

            I understand bits and pieces of that but it’s so all over the place it’s impossible to reason with.

            We may agree that the most important division in this country is between the ultra-rich and the rest of us. Whites in general are “privileged” in the sense that they have not suffered discrimination and violence simply because of their skin color. I’m fully aware of poverty among whites having come from similar circumstances myself. My dad struggled and kept us above poverty level but it put him in an early grave and I had many friends who weren’t as lucky as me.

            Have you ever walked down the street with white friends and had some a$$holes ride by and holler honky or peckerwood? It’s not uncommon for blacks to experience that with the operative word being n****r. Not as much today as when I was younger but I think that kind of shite will increase now that the racists have a sympathetic person as prez. I’m white but my wife and many friends are black. I’ve had to shut the mouth of more than one racist and I don’t look forward to going back to those days.

            “your inability to see how telling working class whites that they have been “privileged” and are whining about losing their privileges somehow doesn’t make them rush out to register Democrat” I’ve never suggested that anyone do that. I’m not a Democrat. I think Sanders is the most sympathetic to working people and was by far the most honest candidate from either party but both parties serve the oligarchy. That’s why even Sanders’ very moderate version of social democracy was unacceptable to the party. The “privileged are the billionaires and their poor cousins the millionaires. Most of the left and right BS is designed to keep workers fighting each other for the crumbs.

            “you using your intelligence to rationalize the irrational” Okay I’m going to turn one of your complaints back on you. Making that statement without explaining what is irrational and why and supplying a “rational” alternative is no different than calling someone or their ideas stupid.

            “For example, the space program in the 1960’s was government getting some serious stuff done.” It seems you define any government program as socialism. True?

            “I think that the government robbing from the oligarchs (whom I couldn’t care less about)” Well there is something we agree on!

            I’m not interested in “throwing anyone from the working class under the bus. Here’s a “joke” for you.

            An oligarchic sits down at the table with a white working man and a black working man. There is a plate with 12 cookies on the table. Immediately the oligarchic takes 11 of the cookies. He then cocks an eye at the white man, gestures toward the black man and says “He wants some of your cookie”.

            “So up in the Northeast, Bernie got votes from the few remaining white guys while in the rest of the country, the non-whites said Hillary was better.” IMO another example of nonsense or at least greatly oversimplified thinking.
            “Hillary is in bed with capitalist cronies” I agree with that but fail to see how Trump is any departure from that. There may be some good ideas on the “alt-right” but the blatant racism associated with their “ideology” makes me deaf to their rants. If the more intelligent and sensible among them can step forward and displace the racists like Spencer, Duke and Bannon they may have something important to contribute.

            I think we won’t see any “solutions” that help we the people coming from the GOP and unless Clinton’s defeat mobilizes serious soul searching among the Dems not from them either.

            “Regarding the stereotypical stupid white supremacist:” I don’t think it’s a stereotype. The term stupid white supremacist is redundant. Anyone who believes the “race” they identify with is superior to any other is a fool, plain and simple. “historical poverty” is a real stumbling block but many poor whites are not racists so poverty is no excuse. It’s worth noting that poverty is more endemic among blacks but I think as the 1% continues to funnel a greater % of the nation’s wealth into their own pockets the ratio will balance out.

            “Ironically, your definition of bigotry, and I quote: “someone who assigns inferiority to someone else and is intolerant of their views” applies well to you” You’re entitled to that opinion of me but I disagree. I don’t assign inferiority to any group of people as a group. If I label someone as stupid it is because of their words or behavior, not skin color or economic status.

            I’ve never in any way contributed to “denying anyone an education” via race preferences or dismissed anyone’s viewpoints except based on the dishonesty or faulty reasoning they present.

            I will admit a bias against the 1%. There probably are people within that small group with good hearts that enjoy their wealth but don’t try to have it all and some may even do unselfish good in the world. The greedy ones overshadow them however, at least in my eyes.

            “PS: MLK. That’s the guy who said we should judge people on character rather than skin color, right? If only that applied to affirmative action…” I agree, if only we as a nation supported high quality education, healthcare and adequate nutrition for all citizens regardless of their background then I would fully support a meritocracy. Let each rise to the level their talent and motivation will take them without any sort of “affirmative action”. I don’t think affirmative action has been a good thing for the underprivileged in general of any race.

          12. PolishKnightUSA January 1, 2017

            It’s a lot to grok, but I think I’m getting more out of this than the usual tit-for-tat I have with my opposition and that’s a great start to a new year.

            For starters, we’re getting into some meta-philosophical debates over what comprises bigotry, moronism, and ridiculousness. You read what I said and I clearly never said you’re moronic but rather engaging in a strategy I refer to as “hamster treadmill” which I mean to be someone attempting to rationalize the irrational. This is often performed by very smart people (such as lawyers) who wind up convincing rubes or providing a justification to the similar minded.

            This reminds me of how Hillary supporters were crestfallen and shocked when their candidate lost because they lived in an echo chamber where only “progressive” people caught their ear and so the polls all agreed with them! Anyhoo, whatever your opinion on that, my point is that you aren’t changing my mind with your argument because I’m not a rube nor seeking to buy into your rationalization. Of course, this requires me to provide an example of such a rationalization on your part rather than just leveling the accusation.

            Let’s start with myself as an example of what we discussed as ridiculous, moronic, etc. and my argument that leftist special interest groups such as La Raza, feminism, Jews, Islamicism, and gays are incongruent with each other. You can argue that my analysis is incomplete or even misleading, but it’s hardly ridiculous or moronic or even bigoted. Bigoted is not someone making a ridiculous argument (since they are failing to convince others) but rather lies in their lack of willingness to consider changing their own mind by dismissing other viewpoints as irrelevant for non-reasonable reasons. So when someone calls someone a “stupid bigot I don’t have to listen to” kind of thing, it’s funny that they’re a hyper bigot at a meta level.

            I don’t consider myself a bigot in that I wouldn’t want to close my mind to ideas that could benefit me but throwing my white butt under a bus because I’m “privileged” while hearing that the “rich” will be fleeced to suit me (but not “me”, of course, since I’m so privileged) just doesn’t interest me at this time without a heck of a good justification and you didn’t provide one. This isn’t bigotry. You can consider me selfish or short sightened or even just not “getting” your viewpoint, but if someone calls me on the phone trying to sell me timeshares and accuses me of being bigoted for not buying them, I’m not going to lose sleep at night over it.

            Let’s now go from me to you and one of what I consider to be not a ridiculous or moronic argument from you but rather one that I find to be logically unworkable. I invite you to correct me if I failed to interpret it correctly or perhaps elaborate. You provide what I consider to be a classic leftist white bashing statement by arguing that, quote, “Whites in general are “privileged” in the sense that they have not suffered discrimination and violence simply because of their skin color.”

            I don’t believe that generalizations by themselves are bad, but it’s worth not holding them to a double standard. For example, Trump generalized that many illegals from Mexico were “rapists and murderers”. One could consider this generalization to be offensive and misleading, but it has a kernel of truth to it. One could make a similar claim about African Americans. Your generalization about whites is certainly flawed in several ways.

            For starters, black on white and non-white on white crime is usually higher. Also, whether you say you’re against affirmative action when a perfect society from Bernie happens, etc. (Which I recognize as a hustle. “I believe all people are good, including whites but…”), etc. it doesn’t change the fact that affirmative action is institutionalized race preferences. The ONLY legalized institutionalized discrimination in this country is against white people! So for you to make such a claim is, to me, laughable. But it gets better.

            You seek to clarify your claim by pointing out your father was poor and presumably (in context) white. So what does that mean exactly? That your father was privileged but squandered it because he was lazy? Or that he’s the exception that proves the rule (which can pretty much prove any rule if you find something contrary and argue that proves the opposite somehow…) Did your father go around calling black people N**** and attacking them? Or does it mean nothing at all? What was the point of that statement or was it a non-sequitur?

            Classical leftism is usually about them appearing to be self-hating, but they just transfer their guilt onto their white opponents. If YOU want repay African Americans for YOUR father’s sins and crimes, please feel free but don’t throw me under the bus and pretend to be so noble. That’s pretty much what George Soros was accused of doing (which I disagree with, BTW, but I find it amusing that the guy is now a totally sleazy leftist and engages in racist collaboration against whites while finding accusations he engaged in such behavior against Jews distasteful).

            In answer to your question: No, I haven’t engaged in such racist nonsense and that’s just it: What makes your profiling me (note the vernacular) as a racist in league with David Duke any different than David Duke profiling black men with gangs and the Black Panthers? What makes leftist racism against whites any different than the old fashioned kind except for its startingly projectionist absurdity? FYI, in addition I have experienced threats and racial slurs from blacks and Latinos several times including concerns for my physical safety. For the leftist race hustle crowd, their examples of threats to blacks include heightened surveillance by police and store security, or suburbanites giving them bad looks when they play “cop killer rape white people” rap music from their stereos while driving through their neighborhoods. In other words, most of the traditional racism against blacks and non-whites is so minimal in modern society that the race card crowd makes mountains out of molehills and you know it. In the meantime, you make the preposterous claim that violence against whites is non-existent!

            That’s not moronic. I hesitate to say it’s dishonest. Really, if you believe that non-white on white violent crime doesn’t exist then that’s your problem as I’ll go into later.

            Fast forward to the cookie: If I’m at the table with the oligarch and you suggest taking away one of his 11 cookies to redistribute, I’m going to assume you’ll take that cookie and give it to a “historical oppressed” black man, then take away my cookie (since I’m so privileged you see) and then hear you laugh at me and call me a racist and mock me for being poor.

            Like your father.

            No. Thanks. Bernie.

            And that’s why “Bashing white guys while asking for help in getting rich guys” didn’t sell very well in the primaries with white people for Bernie.

            Note that as working and even middle class white people flee the Democratic party like they fled Detroit, the effect will be the same: The Democratic party will be made up of non-whites who see themselves as historically entitled, in bed with crony capitalists (was Obamacare ANY better at cutting back on crony capitalism?), and the refugees won’t be going to the green party. The right will become the new home of the progressives. Yeah, Trump isn’t perfect but he’s a leader. Leaders are special folks who are rough around the edges (you gotta be to blaze a trail.) It’s a trail that’s died off with the left.

            Let’s be honest here. You and your wife no doubt probably are heightened alert walking through black and Latino neighborhoods versus surburban or even working class white neighborhoods because you know that’s all BS. Property values in white neighborhoods aren’t higher because racists like paying more for real estate. They’re higher because even folks such as you and your wife feel safer around white people! So I’m sure you’ll have a safe new year by holding onto your hypocrisy when being safe while engaging in lip service otherwise.

            One good thing about the new year is that I think all of this stuff is getting debated out in the open. Trump has been maligned for being vulgar but hey, have you ever seen Chris Rock? Get this: I wouldn’t mind Chris Rock being on Trump’s team. Really. Howz that for a supposed racist bigot? I LOVE seeing all of this stuff out in the open so if I’m a bigot, how come I’m willing to have a more open dialogue compared to the leftist snobbish prude crowd?

          13. The lucky one January 2, 2017

            “I think I’m getting more out of this than the usual tit-for-tat I have with my opposition” I’ll interpret that as a sort of compliment but I don’t consider myself your “opposition”. As my quote of MLK indicated we are all in this together and ultimately will sink or swim together. I respect the fact that you are willing to dialogue.

            “attempting to rationalize the irrational” That’s a good concept that pretty much sums up any philosophy of life or politics, don’t you think? Or is it just the “opposition” who is irrational?

            Just so you know, I’m not crestfallen over Clinton’s defeat though I am concerned that we will soon have someone with Trump’s limited intelligence and lack of character in that office.

            “special interest groups … are incongruent with each other.” Yes, by their very nature they seek to better the circumstances of the group they represent. That’s politics in America and in my view it’s the special interests with the largest lobbying budgets like Big Energy and Big Pharma that have the most sway.

            While I disagree with you on the amount of racism in this country I think the most important division is between the megarich and the rest. The top 10 percent of US households control nearly 75 percent of all wealth. It’s worth noting that 96 percent of the 1.2 million households in the top one percent by income were white. I realize that doesn’t translate into any benefit to white people such as you and me but it shows where the money and power are.
            I probably could have stated it better when I mentioned “white privilege”. I think it is better understood as “black disadvantage” which I believe is very real but I agree that not all or even a majority of whites are privileged, at least not in an economic sense. The growing wealth disparity, at the heart of many problems including racism, is leaving the majority, both white and black, struggling.

            “Trump generalized that many illegals from Mexico were “rapists and murderers”. One could consider this generalization to be offensive and misleading” Yes it was both and also untrue. If he said “some” rather than most them perhaps a kernel of truth would be present.
            “One could make a similar claim about African Americans.” Yes they could and it would also be offensive, misleading and false. The claim could also be made about white people. Essentially it comes down to there are good and bad in every race.

            “For starters, black on white and non-white on white crime is usually higher.” I don’t believe that is true. We do know that the majority of black murder victims are murdered by blacks, and the same holds true for whites. The statistical fact is that you’re more likely to be a victim of a white perpetrator than a black one just because there are so many more whites in the population.

            “affirmative action is institutionalized race preferences.” Yes. “The ONLY legalized institutionalized discrimination in this country is against white people!” No. Do some research into voter suppression by the GOP. Greg Palast is a good source. Those improperly removed from voter rolls were predominantly black people. Was that racism? Yes although not necessarily to oppress them but because they tend to vote for Dems and the GOP will do anything to attain power. If they thought they could gain offices by suppressing poor whites then they would focus on denying the vote to that group.

            “You seek to clarify your claim by pointing out your father was poor and presumably (in context) white. So what does that mean exactly?” I mention my father’s struggles to provide because you imply that I don’t appreciate the struggle of poor whites. I lived it my friend. He was also an example of a man that didn’t blame his situation on other poor people as racists typically do.

            “If YOU want repay African Americans for YOUR father’s sins and crimes, please feel free” Here I don’t know what you’re talking about.” My dad did nothing I need to atone for and was a generous man willing to help ANYONE who needed it.
            “What makes your profiling me (note the vernacular) as a racist in league with David Duke”. I didn’t do that and in fact noted that people, presumably like you who are capable of critical thought, within the alt-right need to step up if that movement is to be taken seriously as a method of political change.

            “FYI, in addition I have experienced threats and racial slurs from blacks and Latinos several times including concerns for my physical safety.” Yes, so have I and I’ve also been on inner city basketball courts and black nightclubs where I was the only white guy without any incident. I, like you, value my experience for interpreting life but also realize that it is a limited perspective. Anyway it comes back to what I said about good and bad in every race or group.

            “most of the traditional racism against blacks and non-whites is so minimal in modern society that the race card crowd makes mountains out of molehills and you know it.” No I don’t know that, in fact I think it totally false.
            “In the meantime, you make the preposterous claim that violence against whites is non-existent!” That would be preposterous but NO I never said that or implied it in anyway.

            “Fast forward to the cookie: If I’m at the table with the oligarch and you suggest taking away one of his 11 cookies to redistribute, I’m going to assume you’ll take that cookie and give it to a “historical oppressed” black man, then take away my cookie (since I’m so privileged you see) and then hear you laugh at me and call me a racist and mock me for being poor.”

            Don’t incorrectly state my argument then attack your misinterpretation.

            “Like your father.” My father doesn’t enter into this at all. I previously explained why I mentioned his experience but it has no relevance here. And no I don’t want to take one of the oligarch’s cookies and give it to a black person. I want to take at least half of them and distribute them among the working class that built this country and gave it whatever greatness it ever had.

            “And that’s why “Bashing white guys while asking for help in getting rich guys” didn’t sell very well in the primaries with white people for Bernie.” That was YOUR interpretation, not what sanders said.

            I agree that the Dem party is rife with crony capitalists, just like the GOP but I find “The right will become the new home of the progressives.” To be laughable. Almost as funny as “Trump isn’t perfect but he’s a leader.” I see zero leadership ability in Trump though I acknowledge that he is a highly skilled self-promoter. Leaders command respect but Trump just demands it.

            “Let’s be honest here.” I have been honest with every statement I’ve made. I can be wrong at times but I don’t lie.
            “You and your wife no doubt probably are heightened alert walking through black and Latino neighborhoods versus surburban or even working class white neighborhoods”. No, I feel no different walking through a predominantly white neighborhood. It depends on what I see. If I see a group of young white men coming my way and they are acting rowdy and macho I have the same degree of concern I would if that group was black. BTW you do know that there are black and Latino suburban neighborhoods and/or working class neighborhoods, right?

            “even folks such as you and your wife feel safer around white people!” Now that is nonsense. How can you propose to know what I feel? The hypocrisy here is in assuming that I secretly share your fears and prejudice.
            “One good thing about the new year is that I think all of this stuff is getting debated out in the open” I agree to that extent that it is true.

            “I LOVE seeing all of this stuff out in the open so if I’m a bigot, how come I’m willing to have a more open dialogue compared to the leftist snobbish prude crowd?” You assume that you are more open-minded than those on the left. I’d agree that is true for some on the left but certainly not all or even a majority. I thinkmpart of the problem, on both sides, is that a dialogue is very difficult in this format. A face to face to conversation is much better. Few here are willing to invest the time as we have done for an extended debate. It’s much easier to toss off a short jibe.

            Cheers

          14. PolishKnightUSA January 2, 2017

            When a comment gets longer than the article that spawned it, it appears the fun has only begun! I’m going to answer this in parts if only because on my day off after New Years, I’m going to get interrupted so I may as well just post each section piecemeal.

            Regarding rationalizing the irrational. I’m reminded of a conversation I had with a very intelligent leftist woman on a bus about 8 years ago. It was an epiphany because we were having a friendly debate and she chided me saying she’s smart and a great debator so I shouldn’t mess with her which got me to thinking: Was she proud of her ability to rationalize things?

            This is a talent lawyers use to get out of speeding tickets (I got one pled down to “defective speedometer) but also can be used by people to fool themselves. It reminds me of how dangerous people can be who think they’re moral and then rationalize immoral acts and I could get in the way. There’s a little bit of sociopath in everyone. I try to defuse him by learning to do something leftists usually don’t pride themselves on:

            Being dumb.

            I don’t want to fool myself. I prefer to be lazy and I view it as the father of invention rather than a hard work ethic. I see a lot of people working hard and winding up being the hamster in a lot of ways. It’s a big deal for me personally in my “schtick” in worldview.

            So no, I don’t just see you as irrational but rather much of the world in general of people running around trying to maintain a reality they fell in love with but just haven’t given up on yet. Sometimes, that’s a good thing (if it really is something attainable and even likable) but sometimes, not. I remember an old man telling me 35 years ago that the girls I fell in love with back then I’d be glad I outgrew later. It turns out I wound up marrying a woman similar to my first girlfriend but between then, he was right. It took me 2 years to get married to my wife and it was a good thing I decided to know her well before marrying her unlike how many people marry ideas from their childhood they have only the most surface awareness of.

            I just had a debate about this with Aaron elsewhere here interestingly but it came up from him, not me. Must be some kind of cosmic thing going on due to supermoon and the Trump election. Perhaps the Mayans? 🙂

            So that being said, whether someone is a Christian, Muslim, or Democrat or Republican, or whatever, they like to feel they have their schtick going on. The most popular one is “I’m smart and cool and those who disagree with me are stupid bigots who look down upon others!” or “I’m good and kind and the other guy is a hateful jerk!” and sometimes people combine them all together.

            Me? Until I get a private jet or at least go a whole day without my wife complaining about something, I remain a bit more humble and I think that’s where all the learning is. It also makes me amazingly powerful, I think, because I belong to a religion, so to speak, of trying to do things differently to find the advantages. If everyone else is in a club, I just know I can’t be very remarkable in it because I’m not the smartest, most handsome, etc. person in the room. So I have to find a different schtick. I embraced weirdness. So I’m hardly a political conservative or liberal for that, obviously, and that’s what makes me excited about Trump who got hit from both sides of the political aisle. That’s where I’m coming from.

            Regarding political lobbying. Indeed, you name Big Energy and Big Pharma and in the end, they probably use other self-proclaimed civil rights groups (but more like lobbying groups) La Raza, BLM, and feminism as useful dupes. Perhaps Trump used me in that fashion as well but at least now I’m recognized as being part of something USEFUL which is certainly better than the irrelevance that many leftists I know had thought they had pigeonholed me to about a year ago. The right has up to now rejected special interest groups as bad yet democracy is one big conglomoration of special interest groups cobbled together from other groups which individuals join. I’m unapologetically “racist” and selfish and a jerk if that means that I don’t welcome people who want me to lay down while they and their buddies take away my “privilege” to “help” me.

            At this point, we’re segwaying into race issues which is a pretty big segment on it’s own so a good place to pause. Part two later.

          15. The lucky one January 2, 2017

            Hahaha, I think you’re right. I’ll hold off on responding until you post your 2nd one. No point in rushing anything. Enjoy your day off.

          16. The lucky one January 3, 2017

            I’ll respond in segments as you so I haven’t read your other posts yet though I did glance at the 2nd.

            I don’t pride myself on being dumb, as you said you do yourself, but I do recognize and acknowledge my limitations. Maybe that’s what you meant. I don’t know.

            “Must be some kind of cosmic thing going on due to supermoon and the Trump election. Perhaps the Mayans? :-)” Maybe you’ve heard the old Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times” These times certainly are interesting.

            “I remain a bit more humble and I think that’s where all the learning is.” I agree with that but I also don’t have any false modesty about what I do know and what I think. I’m open to new info or interpretation because I don’t like to remain wrong when I’ve misunderstood something.

            “what makes me excited about Trump who got hit from both sides of the political aisle.” I understand that. I’ve always been considered a bit eccentric. I know you consider me a liberal but you should have read what the “liberals” here said about me when I challenged the sanctity of Hillary Clinton.
            “Regarding political lobbying. Indeed, you name Big Energy and Big Pharma and in the end, they probably use other self-proclaimed civil rights groups (but more like lobbying groups) La Raza, BLM, and feminism as useful dupes.” I’ve seen no evidence of that and given that the policies of Energy & Pharma are usually antithetical to the platforms of the groups you mentioned and those that are similar I strongly doubt it. Now I would agree that the DNC has “played” some special interest groups just the like GOP has done.

            “Perhaps Trump used me in that fashion as well but at least now I’m recognized as being part of something USEFUL” Time will tell. My opinion is that very little that is useful will come out of Trump’s presidency.

            “The right has up to now rejected special interest groups as bad” Huh? You don’t think Oil companies, Pharma companies, the NRA etc. are special interest groups? Better look again.

            “yet democracy is one big conglomeration of special interest groups cobbled together” There is some truth in that but the ones with the most money gain the most leverage especially since the SCOTUS Inc. made the Citizen’s United ruling that corporations are people and that money is speech.

          17. PolishKnightUSA January 9, 2017

            I did a read through both of your responses and this is part 1: Summation: I think we’re going to be a bit meta in this and quibbling what you and I are (alt right? Left?) and what alt-right and left or progressive mean. You claim I’m strawmanning you and I can appreciate that because you may disagree with my perspective of your position. I’ll try to show that at least my strawman has some, er, straw to it. After all, many altrighters will disagree with your interpretation of their position as well, yes?

            Firstly, I’m honestly confused as to whether you understand my claim that the left is racist against whites with affirmative action race preferences, their rationalizations of such, and whether you agree or disagree with race preferences or not. I get the feeling that you’re bamboozling me when you write that you would “fully” support a meritocracy when all all citizens have access to education, etc. This sounds to me like a rationalization. So let’s just try this one very simply: Do you support race preferences, or not in current American politics? Do you think leftists do as well? Can you see how this position might alienate may whites including those who might otherwise agree with many of your other economic policies?

            Since you set a rather high bar for ending affirmative action, we can go back to the rich person and the cookie thought experiment. Will you find a single African American person being marginalized somewhere to deny working class whites an education compared to an otherwise “merit” African American candidate? This is why I don’t trust you. This reminds me of Garfield from Other People’s Money saying: Even if the yen does this and the dollar does that, I still think you’ll justify race preferences against whites and sexism against men in that the left justifies such under “diversity”. If a company is woman or African American owned, and hires mostly women and African Americans (or heck, just non-whites), then it qualifies for preferential treatment. If a company has too many white guys, then it faces being fined. This is regardless of whether or not any actual discrimination is taking place as “diversity” is a reason to use race/gender preferences simply for the sake of doing so. There is no reason to ever end them.

            This leads to an astounding statement you made: “I define a bigot as someone who assigns inferiority to someone else and is intolerant of their views.” followed by: “For example white supremacists are among the stupidest people I have ever seen and it always amazes me how they can believe themselves superior to anyone.”

            Which begs me to ask: When was the last time you invited a white supremacist to a dinner party and was tolerant of their views? How many have you really seen? Sheesh, I’ve traveled quite a bit and I haven’t met that many myself. Most “white supremacists” I know merely are against racist in that they think hiring should be colorblind. Granted, there are white supremacists on the altright just as African American Clinton supporters beat up a handicapped white teen and made him say white people suck.

            But overall, in the median mainstream, few altrighters are white supremacists supporting institutionalized discrimination of any kind. If anything, the ONLY people I know who both support color blind government policies and as well strive to see people without regard to race are conservative right wingers (not alt righters). They find people such as me who bring up affirmative action to be pedestrian matters and they would rather chase after free markets or gay marriage issues. (I know, those two kind of conflict 🙂

            This also begs the question of your logic: You think that most white supremecists are laughably stupid but… affirmative action rationalizes discrimination against whites by arguing that white elitists are… racist. Er, so white elites going to Yale and Harvard and Skulls and Bones are toothless yokels in trailer parks? 🙂

            So as far as I can see, your position on affirmative action seems to be similar to that of what I consider to be classical leftist and I’m a classical alt-righter which is ok with me but you deny being a leftist. You’re a Bernie supporter, I think, who finds Hillary in bed with crony capitalism to be distasteful, but otherwise I’d say you’re mainstream leftist like a tea partier is mainstream right (note I know a lot of NeverTrump tea partiers!)

            So let’s go back to stupidity, racism, and bigotry: Many stupid people understand evolution (they don’t mind getting vaccinations, etc.) and many smart people can be racists. Note that there is Scientific validity to racism. Statistically, just as whites tend to be in the 1% category you listed, African Americans tend to be violent. My point to you was that you and the left have a double standard: Judging men such as your father as privileged by one while ignoring the other. Whether that’s smart or hypocritical is another matter. But how smart is it to dispute Holy Science? Races ARE different. If you understand that skin color is genetic and yes, there are light skinned African Americans just as there are dark skinned whites (especially as president of the NAACP :-), and even in our individual lives, we select our mates not just for romance but for more shallow factors (physical strength, intelligence, etc.) then just as we are individuals, families, and extended families with, er, genetic profiles then doesn’t that apply to races or ethnic groups as well? Darwin and evolution says that without external forces, like protecting endangered species, NATURE practices genocide on its own. Note: This doesn’t make institutionalized racism moral anymore than denying a dying child life saving antibiotics by arguing that overuse of them produces more deadly strains. I find it amusing that leftists and virulent anti-racists like to mock creationalists when they use similar logic that was used against Darwin.

            Especially when, as I said, I think there’s a double standard at play as I mentioned above.

            About “special interests”: I should clarify my statement when I mean the right uses the phrase “identity politics” to refer to La Raza, BLM, NAACP, etc. and that whites shouldn’t form their own (such as “white pride”) because that would be buying into “identity politics”. You’re right that the NRA is a lobbying group just like the NAACP but at NRA meetings, I see plenty of African American gun owners and there is a mutual agreed upon taboo of outside partisan politics. I know several Democrat gun enthusiasts here in the DC metro region too.

            Regarding money as speech: Indeed, most of the big money and institutional power was for Clinton. Are you on crack and dare to dispute that? In any case, my point that special interests and identity is what Democracy is all about is still valid. Whether I’m in a gun rights organization or someone wants to join The Race or a oil company contributes to a politician or a union wants to make a huge contribution to a politician to increase spending for a public sector union, these are all identity issues that are difficult to avoid. I’m actually for just giving politicians free air time and if that means we have 20 nuts in a primary with 10 billion in government campaign funds, I’m ok with that, BTW. It would make most of these lobbies’ money irrelevant and return things to a populist level.

            Part 2 I’m going to go into how the left are dupes of crony capitalists (including race and feminism) I’ll also explore populism. I’ll also go through some “he said/she said” disputes we had but let some slide (which you are free to bring up again.)

            Anyways, nice talking with you again and happy new year. You can’t sharpen a blade without a wet stone.

          18. The lucky one January 10, 2017

            Good morning,
            I thought we were through but I guess not. At least no one can accuse us of not putting time and energy into a dialogue however fruitful it may be. I’m not going to review our previous posts so I’ll just respond to what you have here. Sorry if that makes it confusing at times.

            “many altrighters will disagree with your interpretation of their position as well, yes?” No doubt but I’ve kept in mind your advice to supply my reasoning and/or evidence when I see something as “stupid”, “nonsensical” and/or “racist/bigoted”. The trouble with that is some, not you or me, are just trolls trying to provoke and don’t deserve a thoughtful response. That’s especially true of rightys who post on lefty sites and probably the other way around as well.

            “I get the feeling that you’re bamboozling me when you write that you would “fully” support a meritocracy when all citizens have access to education, etc. This sounds to me like a rationalization.” I’m not clear why you would see that as bamboozling unless you don’t believe it’s possible. If so, given the stranglehold the rich have on the nation’s wealth you may be right.

            “Do you support race preferences, or not in current American politics?” No not really but I do support educational aid in poor districts where the quality of facilities and attracting/retaining quality teachers makes educational advancement a possibility for only the most gifted and who have at least one committed parent.

            “Do you think leftists do as well?” I hesitate to speak for “leftists”. I have sympathy for many of the ideas proposed by those considered leftist but disagree with others and often disagree with the statements of politicians who claim a “liberal/progressive” perspective. (IMO few pols are brave enough to claim a leftist pedigree, sanders being an exception.)

            “Can you see how this position might alienate many whites including those who might otherwise agree with many of your other economic policies?” Yes absolutely, which is why I prefer to emphasize economic inequality over racial difference.

            “Will you find a single African American person being marginalized somewhere to deny working class whites an education compared to an otherwise “merit” African American candidate?” I don’t understand your question.
            “This is why I don’t trust you.” On trusting people I don’t have previous direct experience with I follow W.C. Fields’ advice; “Trust everyone, but cut the cards.”

            “I still think you’ll justify race preferences against whites and sexism against men in that the left justifies such under “diversity”. Well you’ll believe what you want but I don’t justify anyone receiving preference except by merit. What I am after is equal opportunity and it does not exist. I believe it’s true that generally speaking blacks are at a greater disadvantage than whites but when you look at specific individuals that is often enough not the case. A child growing up in the slums hungry and subject to random violence has little chance of succeeding whether white, black, yellow or whatever.

            Regarding “diversity”. I believe that the more we know about each other’s heritage, perspectives and life experience the more likely we can get along, understand each other and maybe even support each other’s success. But, as a conservative poster pointed out and I agree, all we really need to do is treat each human being with respect.

            “If a company is woman or African American owned, and hires mostly women and African Americans (or heck, just non-whites), then it qualifies for preferential treatment.” Preferential treatment by who? Do you have a source for that assertion? I think there may be tax breaks in some instances but I don’t know of any other preferential treatment or how extensive tax breaks are for them.

            “If a company has too many white guys, then it faces being fined.” You’ll have to provide a source before I can even consider that because I believe it is false. The only exception is with businesses with extensive government contracts / I believe it’s reasonable in those cases for employment to reflect the racial and gender percentages in that area if possible. If it is private business without reliance on tax supported government contracts then there should be no racial/gender quota and I don’t believe there is.

            Regarding white supremacists, I don’t identify all white people who think they are being treated unfairly based on racial bias to be white supremacists even if I don’t agree with their view. I don’t know any white supremacists well, probably never will. You’re right I wouldn’t invite one to dinner though I’d be willing to talk. The other side of that is that if they knew I have a black wife they wouldn’t invite me either. I also don’t identify all “alt-righters” as racist. I try not to judge someone based on the labels placed on them and since our dialogue began I’ve been more aware of when I may do so inadvertently.

            “But overall, in the median mainstream, few altrighters are white supremacists supporting institutionalized discrimination of any kind.” Maybe so, I don’t know and I don’t recall ever claiming otherwise. For years I’ve seen commentators label a person socialist or lefty and then attack what they perceive as the “leftist/socialist” viewpoint rather than address the ideas the person actually puts forth. I have seen the same happen with those labeled “alt-right”. I try to address the person rather than the label if I’m responding to something posted. Maybe I don’t always succeed but the intention is there.

            “If anything, the ONLY people I know who both support color blind government policies and as well strive to see people without regard to race are conservative right wingers (not alt righters).” Socialists also do that. “They find people such as me who bring up affirmative action to be pedestrian matters and they would rather chase after free markets or gay marriage issues.” Strangely enough, or not, socialists do the same from the other side.

            “You think that most white supremacists are laughably stupid” Part of the issue is in definitions and my use of the word “stupid”. To me a WP is a white who believes that he is inherently superior or that the other is inherently inferior based on skin color and/or country of ancestral origin. I’ll stand by that being an ignorant, and yes stupid, view. There are far too many dumbass whites and highly intelligent blacks for that to be a point of argument.

            You mention rich white graduates of prestigious colleges who are white supremacists as being evidence that WP are not necessarily stupid. You have a point but I think there is a difference between using WP to maintain one’s position on the top of the heap and actually believing you are a superior human being. That’s one reason I don’t like Trump. I think he is guilty of both.

            As to the intelligence of those who fit my definition of WP the scientists say that there is no such thing as “general intelligence” but just intelligence in certain parameters, such as mathematical, verbal, spatial etc. If so then it’s possible to be very gifted in one area and blind in others. Coming back to Trump. I think he is gifted in reading people and seeing weaknesses in others but I think his emotional intelligence is at a teenage level.

            “you deny being a leftist” I deny any label placed on me but I do agree with leftist positions more often that rightist when the division is along those lines. “You’re a Bernie supporter” I was as the only rational, IMO, alternative to the demagogues Trump and Clinton.

            “I’d say you’re mainstream leftist” Many Dems who post here would say and have said that I am far left, not mainstream left which is where they post themselves. They saw my distaste for Clinton as evidence that I am a “purist”. I think corruption needs to eradicated and don’t make allowances when it is a Dem, who in my opinion long ago abandoned the working class, with a few exceptions. Maybe I haven’t looked well enough but I see no one in the GOP who supports “we the people”.

            “like a tea partier is mainstream right” Foe better and worse I don’t see tea partiers as mainstream. I think the impetus that started the movement was genuine and valid in many ways but they were quickly co-opted by the the rich, notably the Koch brothers, as a tool to push the corporatist agenda.
            “Note that there is Scientific validity to racism.” Validity perhaps to the reality of it but not that racism is itself based on anything other than bias.

            “Statistically, just as whites tend to be in the 1% category” Not exactly, the inverse is true though – the 1% tends to be white. I don’t believe that white or black genes has anything to do with it apart from being born into a wealthy family as nearly all members of the 1% were.

            “African Americans tend to be violent.” Nonsense. Human beings tend to be violent depending on circumstances, blacks no more or less so.

            “My point to you was that you and the left have a double standard” I don’t know about the “left” but I deny that I have a double standard and have seen nothing here to demonstrate that I do.

            “But how smart is it to dispute Holy Science? Races ARE different.” Yes skin color and other cosmetics vary as well as physical characteristics even within so-called” races”. There has never been any evidence to support that any race is more intelligent than any other.

            “genetic profiles then doesn’t that apply to races or ethnic groups as well?” Not sure what you are getting at but there are no “pure” races and the fact that are no barriers to different races mating and producing viable offspring indicates the genetic differences are individual not categorical.

            “Darwin and evolution says that without external forces, like protecting endangered species, NATURE practices genocide on its own.” That’s true but we humans are all the same species.

            “I find it amusing that leftists and virulent anti-racists like to mock creationists.” Creationism is a belief system, not science and not supported in anyway by science. They are mocked when they pretend that it is and make statements like dinosaurs co-existed with humans or greatly understate the age of life on earth. It’s worth noting that one can believe in a creator and still accept scientific evidence but such people don’t consider themselves “creationists” as far as I know. I have no issue with anyone believing what they want about our origins but I object to creationism being offered as “science”.

            “You’re right that the NRA is a lobbying group just like the NAACP but at NRA meetings, I see plenty of African American gun owners and there is a mutual agreed upon taboo of outside partisan politics.” I’ll take your word for the racial make-up and the activities of the group you belong to but the group as a whole is very much involved in partisan politics. Note not all Dems are “anti-gun”. Sanders for one but most support sensible gun control laws which IMO the national organization fights against tooth and nail.

            “Regarding money as speech: Indeed, most of the big money and institutional power was for Clinton. Are you on crack and dare to dispute that?” and you’ve good about insults so far so I’ll ignore that one, I’m tired too. Clinton had more campaign funds from the ‘establishment” no question the GOP had a large amount as well which is one reason they increased their control of congress and governorship. Both parties are owned by the 1% and large corporations and trump is a member of that club.

            “I’m actually for just giving politicians free air time” Me too and since ‘we” own the airwaves which we allow broadcaters to use there should be no problem doing so.

            “make most of these lobbies’ money irrelevant and return things to a populist level” which is why it will not likely happen. Certainly Trump won’t lead that charge, and neither would have Clinton though Sanders may have.
            “I’ll also explore populism.” Look forward to it and we may find some common ground there.

            “I’ll also go through some “he said/she said” disputes” I won’t bring up any you don’t. Usually that stuff is unproductive.
            I’ll leave you with a couple quotes that I think are relevant to our discussion.

            “The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it.” – [1941]Edward Dowling

            “Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other.” – Oscar Ameringer – ( 1870-1943) German-American Socialist

            “Only reason can convince us of those three fundamental truths: without a recognition of which there can be no effective liberty: That what we believe is not necessarily true; that what we like is not necessarily good; and that all questions are open.” – — Clive Bell – (1881-1964) – Source: Civilization, 1928

            Cheers, Dave

          19. PolishKnightUSA January 19, 2017

            Hello, another part. Not sure if you’re still tuned in. FYI, I didn’t get tickets for the inauguration so my wife and I will do happy hour at a local place. Apologies for what I didn’t address:

            I’ve been waiting to address this next point for some time since I read it but ground through previous posts: You stated an absolute generalization that racists are stupid bigots but you admit you don’t know a single one. Your view of “racists” is based upon a strawman stereotype or unflattering media portrayals. Ironically, this is how a racist is portrayed as generating their worldview.

            Regarding White Supremecists who believe all whites are superior and all non-whites are inferior: That sounds a bit like a strawman especially when you just admitted you don’t have much evidence to make such a claim. Not to say that such boogymen don’t exist, but they are a comparitive rarity. For the record, I don’t think darwinists or WP’s as you put them think in terms of “better”. Are African Americans who excel at sports proof of superiority to whites? Or Jews who win more Nobel prizes? I have no recollection of Trump making white supremecy like remarks. None whatsoever. So Trump is guilty of what exactly? I know that he’s often quoted as saying “All Mexicans are rapists” but you know that’s a misquote (and besides, many Mexicans are white! 🙂

            Regarding Trump: I think he’s egotistical but that’s also a factor in politicians in general. You and I aren’t political leaders and there’s a reason for that. I think Hillary also probably is not a “normal” person if you know what I mean or even Bernie. Politicans and managers are different breed which is why I chose a non-managerial career path. This is why the tea partiers are cautious of government in that the elites tend to be a-holes yet the left seeks to create massive governmental agencies that are catnip for such folks. By the same token, the tea party can’t defeat big government without actually getting involved in it. Both are challenging logical conundrums.

            I regard Bernie also as a demogague in his own way since economic class conflicts involve a certain level of demogaguary (spelling?) but not that I necessary disagree with it.

            Let’s go back to Science (with a capital S), racism, and bigotry. When you say that you “don’t believe” in racism, that’s not a scientific conclusion. You find racism distasteful but that’s similar to religious faith of Christians, isn’t it? Note that I’m not particularly religious.

            You argue there’s a lack of evidence that one race is more intelligent than the other but that would be rather specious. Of course there’s evidence including what racists commonly observe: Statistics show that AA’s are more violent per capita, period. We can argue that there’s other factors involved like with any other theory, but it’s still EVIDENCE. There’s IQ tests. Again, you can dispute the evidence, but it’s evidence. And even without evidence you disagree with, it defies logic to imply that all other factors of our existence such as physical strength, eye/skin color, etc. are subject to evolution but not intelligence. That would imply that intelligence should NOT be a factor in choosing a mate. Also, how did humans become intelligent if not through evolution? Could the next generation of people just turn out to all be totally dumb if intelligence is largely random?

            Regardless of the motives of alleged WP in top universities, this again belies your claim that WS are stupid. In addition, most of these universities are also hotbeds of leftism and crony capitalism which is why as I stated previously, the right is now stealing economic populism and class power struggle from the left: The left has become the status quo. I am amused at how the same people who praise the “99 percent” then turn around and react with horror to emerging populism in the USA and Europe.

            I found this statement from you interesting: “[Creationalists] are mocked when they pretend that it is [like Science]”

            Bigots are by definition those who mock those who disagree with them and then use that strawman to justify their beliefs. It’s also an appeal to authority. Science is supposed to be based upon evidence, not a popularity contest. And of course you can object to creationalism being presented as science but IMO, global warming is also more political than science as well. Imagine if I had my daughter write up a scientific paper on darwin’s theories of races… I’d be getting called into the principals office! 🙂

            Regarding the NRA fighting tooth and nail “common sense” gun control: This is like BLM and the left claiming that they can’t trust cops because they’re racist BUT they want big government to take away all AA’s guns. At NRA meetings, I’d say half of the members are law enforcement and federal agents cashing paychecks from big government.

            Joking “are you on crack” was not terribly insulting and I think you acted as if it was and then tried to claim the GOP also has big money going for it to NOT answer my (insulting) question: Was most of the big crony capitalist money for Clinton or not? You briefly blurted she had “more campaign funds from the establishment” which basically means you aren’t on crack. Congratulations because you just said “yes”. Clinton was the establishment candidate AND the popular vote was for her. Trump trumped the traditional money-buys-politics model. As I said, the right is going left and I hope in the ways I desire.

            The FCC “fairness doctrine” was a joke because PBS was about as fair as the Soviet politburo. In any case, it’s now moot since most everyone BUT the left gets their programming from cable or the internet anyways. Only PBS/ABC/NBC/CBS are affected and Rush Limbaugh as well. It must be quite flattering to Rush that the left would want to control the rest of the remaining airwaves just to hush him but at this point, I’d say that Rush is obsolete. I haven’t listened to radio or broadcast TV in years and I’m not alone.

            Regarding the quotes. I find them amusing especially since classic Marxism has had a problem with ethnic class issues superceding economic ones for a century (even before the H guy).

            “Until its complete extermination or loss of national status, this racial trash always becomes the most fanatical bearer there is of counter-revolution, and it remains that. That is because its entire existence is nothing more than a protest against a great historical revolution. … The next world war will cause not only reactionary classes and dynasties, but also entire reactionary peoples, to disappear from the earth. And that too is progress” — Karl Marx

            Thanks (in progress) for the exchange. Will continue with later responses from you.

            For me, I find this fruitful because I realize that there are commonalities in our beliefs and this isn’t a “take everything from column A or B” type of scenario. It’s also not being a ‘moderate’ and then just getting watered down sh*t if you know what I mean. I think it’s exciting that perhaps humanity will work these things out and if that means it’s a political party that isn’t the one I’m voting for right now, I’m ok with that. Note that my opinion as evolved over the years (hmm, interesting how that ties into Darwinism! 🙂 🙂 🙂

          20. The lucky one January 24, 2017

            This actually a response to your earlier reply. I’ll address this latest one in a couple days.

            “That’s just your victim mentality speaking.”
            “It’s a tremendously revealing kind of remark to hear from someone who appears (my impression) to sympathize with the standard portfolio of leftist victim groups including women and African Americans along with other non-whites who demand special privileges in the name of equality and then accuse me of having a victim mentality.”

            I didn’t say I don’t sympathize. I just don’t agree with your characterization of racial prejudice and discrimination except on a few points.

            “when was the last time Obama said that the ideal developed nation was Mexico, for instance?”

            I don’t know, maybe you can help me because I never heard him say that.

            “the more you rationalize white guilt the further I, and others, step away.”

            Understandable except that I don’t rationalize “white guilt” and don’t feel any myself.

            You then outline what you perceive as leftists throwing people under the bus and conclude with “Check out a book on what happened to the nice folks like Trotsky in the Russian Revolution.”

            I’d agree that the Clintonista treated Sanders and his supporters badly but I don’t consider them leftist. The Clinton history, her and Bill, fits the right wing philosophy better than the left.

            “your next claim that “yes all racists and bigots are stupid.”
            That is a poor choice of words and I also had an epiphany. Racists are not so much stupid, though many are, as just emotionally immature, IMHO. I’ll come back to that issue later as it is the central topic in our discussion.

            “the left calls white working class people stupid and uneducated and then sneeringly continues to deny them educational opportunities that would make them unstupid.”

            I don’t believe the left does either of those things. Calling a racist stupid, whether accurate or not, does not equate to calling working class whites stupid. Your assumption that giving aid to a black student to facilitate their success is tantamount to denying educational opportunities to whites. It need not be a zero-sum game where aid to a disadvantaged black takes aid away from a disadvantaged white.

            “I think very smart people can be amazing “hamster wheel” gamers trying to rationalize the impossible for their cherished beliefs.”

            Absolutely agree and suggest that you are not an exception.
            “For the record, I do have a lot in common with you as I said. I don’t like the oligarchs much either. IF they go down from my effort, it won’t be with folks such as yourself.”

            The only way we will get out from under oligarchic rule is if we work together which seems unlikely at this point. The only way Trump will contribute to that is if his excesses provoke an uprising but I think the GOP establishment will remove him before that happens.

            “No more “diversity” or white male privilege stuff. You’d have to throw BLM, feminism, La Raza, and the rest under the bus. The question is: Could you do it?”

            Absolutely, I don’t belong to any formal groups. If there was true equal opportunity and respect for individuals there would be no need for “diversity” apart from those who are curious and interested. None of us “needs” to know about others heritage as long as we respect them as people.

            You then say: “I don’t know who should deserve the burden of racism, nobody dserves it but it’s worth noting […]” This sounds like a waffle. You say you’re not for X and then you rationalize it anyway.”

            No I don’t believe I did. Unfortunately life is not all black and a white (no pun intended) and often a statement needs a “but” to cover some of the grayness. If you think that is equivocation by me so be it. I’d rather say what I really mean than try to compress it into precise either or statements.

            “Regarding my claim that you claimed that black-on-white crime is no big deal.” No I disagreed with your your statistics but never claimed that any crime is “no big deal”.

            I’ll accept your stats as being accurate, actually I think I already did that in an earlier post. That doesn’t reveal why they are so. You say it’s because blacks are by nature more violent. I say it’s because of disparities in how blacks are viewed and treated within the CRJ system.

            “According to the Center on Disease Control’s annual Youth Risk Behavior Survey, in 2001 whites and African Americans reported similar rates of carrying a weapon (whites 17.9%, African Americans 15.2%), and similar rates of carrying a gun (whites 5.5%, and African Americans, 6.5%). African American youth were arrested for weapons offenses at a rate twice that of whites (69 per 100,000, versus 30 per 100,000)”

            “According to the same survey African Americans report being in a physical fight at a similar rate (36.5%, versus 32.5% for whites), but were arrested for aggravated assault at a rate nearly three times that of whites (137 per 100,000, versus 48 per 100,000).”

            “it’s clear that whites have been fleeing the Democratic party for some time because they’re sick of La Raza and other immigration policies.”

            That is your assumption. I’d say it’s because the Dems have abandoned the working class, not just whites. That is a BIG difference.

            You then ask “Otherwise, why Hispanics and Blacks wouldn’t have fled the Democratic party over economic issues at the same rate?” and then go on to say that “Trump did make an inroad with Hispanics and African Americans on economic issues which I refer to above”. So apparently, in your view anyway, blacks/Hispanics are fleeing the Dems over those issues.

            “It’s like the world somehow is aligning with my cherished beliefs which is pretty cool for me.” As Waylon Jennings reminds us in a song “Be careful of something that’s just what you want it to be.”

            “You consider my claim about the cookie to be a strawman but I invite you to disprove it. If you are out to share cookies with poor trailer park white guys, why doesn’t your left (or ideology) already seek to do so? Why wait? Ok, so I’m wrong. Show me. But I have quotes from you now saying that you’d like to judge on character but… and but… and but…” “When I don’t hear “but”, I’ll believe you.”

            I invite you to show where my “buts” undermine my position. Again nothing involving human beings and society is cut and dried.

            .”I’ll show those ignorant people! I’ll deny them an eduation because they’re such bigots! That’ll educate them!” Your words, not mine.

            It’s like that scene in The Sopranos where Paulie takes a Russian guy out to the woods to kill him and says: “Your attitude is why I’m killing you. I hope you learned a lesson from this.” Yeah, I disagree with your analogy but that was pretty funny. If you like crime shows check out The Wire. IMHO the best crime show ever made.

            “Your next remark about “we the people” illustrates you just don’t get it: As long as you continue to rationalize the “white privilege” narrative and apply it to justify discrimination against me, I’m not letting my guard down and sure, if that means I’m at your throat too, so to speak, so be it.”

            I’d say that remark shows that you don’t get it. As long as we remain at each other’s throats the oligarchy rules. What exactly have YOU lost because of the anti-white discrimination you claim is so rampant? I’m not trying to pry into your personal life so feel free to ignore the question “but” it’s always personal at some point.

            “I will personally advise my daughter, for her sake, to certainly make it a significant factor” that to be safe, don’t stand out.” Good advice. I wouldn’t walk through a ghetto, white or black, wearing expensive clothes and bling (actually I don’t wear bling period). If you’re in a rich neighborhood and don’t want to be hassled, look rich.

            “it would be a bad father if I didn’t advise her to be more careful in SE DC late at night than in an Arkansas trailer park.” That would depend on which trailer park but I’ll take your word for the dangerousness of SE DC since that is your area.
            “You’re free to do and advise what you like, of course.” I would advise my daughter to always be alert no matter where she is and to follow her gut. It’s always worked for me and I been in some pretty bad areas including inner city playgrounds playing basketball without any significant problems.

            ” I think that’s a valid point an d greater opportunity for all regardless of race is what is truly needed but we won’t get it with the current and worsening economic disparity. ”
            What that means to me is “blah blah blah but… we can’t get around to trailer park whites yet. Sorry.”

            You make a false inference here. That’s not what I said or implied.

            “I’m a huge history buff and I see that there are historical conflicts on the horizon.” I too have read quite bit of history and you may be right but I think the real conflicts will be between rich and poor.

            Cheers

          21. PolishKnightUSA February 9, 2017

            Hey Lucky,

            I didn’t ignore you. I got busy (new daughter) + book club so this got buried in my email folder. I still have to respond to a nice Polish girl feminist (who by American standards is a raving conservative right winger 🙂

            So how about this: contact me at this email address: contest12a maupa sobolewski dotted com. (maupa is at and dotted means dot). We can then email each other without spamming this forum.

            I assure you I read your response and if you want the last word, it is most graciously yours to have and I wish you well. If you find the discussion intriguing, we can continue later. Heck, you can even come over for beers if you’re in the DC metro region. My treat.

            warmest regards,
            PolishKnight

          22. The lucky one February 14, 2017

            I just sent a message to the address you gave me so if it goes through we’re good to go without clogging up NM.

            Congratulations on your new daughter. Thanks for the invite but I won’t be in DC anytime soon if ever though I would like to visit the Smithsonian some time so who knows.

          23. PolishKnightUSA January 2, 2017

            Ok, part 2. After discussing bigotry and stupidity in general, let’s move onto something perhaps even more obtuse: statistics.

            You stated that it’s a statistical fact that you’re more likely to be a victim of a white perpetrator than a black one due to the relative fewer blacks in the population. Nice lesson if I had presumed to state otherwise but irrelevant: Do you hop into shark infested waters because you’re statistically less likely to die of a shark attack than drowning in the hotel bathtub?

            The point is that the left has a blatant double standard of generalizing negatively about white people as privileged to justify discrimination while lamenting profiling (or even otherwise unjustified arrests) of blacks and other groups even though there’s just as much evidence to justify racist generalizations either way.

            I looked up the claim that 96 percent of 1.2 million households by income were white and then drilled through to a source article and then found what I was looking for: the comments! Neat how statistics that sound bogus but are quoted from huffington, through to nbc, to finally NYT can be disputed by reading what some of the “bigots” in the comments say. Several factors influence that statistic but perhaps one of the most significant is one thanks to feminism: single motherhood. Black single mother households just have a lower “household value” than two parent white ones or black families for that matter. Same with hispanics (who are not doing much better.) “Households” are not the same thing as personal income. In another discussion, we can go into the “77 cents on a dollar” gender wage gap (hint: women quitting their jobs to live off of a man earn less.)

            FYI, don’t know if I mentioned this but I’m a new father and my wife treats me with respect and that helps a lot. She values me not just for my paycheck (which she won’t bother going to the courts to make me into a slave to a child I don’t get to see) but also knows I really add additional value.

            Note that this recent development in demographics is not due to racism against blacks since their 2 parent household formation, while lagging behind whites, was still pretty close about 50 years ago. Feminism giving white women entry level jobs while throwing up-and-coming black men into the streets and welfare rewarding black women to have a child on their own didn’t help matters.

            In any case, why is this anything that I should share collective white guilt over to be discriminated against because I’m “privildged”?

            Next statistic you don’t believe is true that black on white crime is usually higher than vice versa. This is like denying the moon in the sky. It’s trivial for me to google this:

            “2. According to Riley, “Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do.” Blacks committed 52 percent of homicides between 1980 and 2008, despite composing just 13 percent of the population.Jul 13, 2016″

            Hmmm, which is amazing since apparently you are more likely to die from a shark attack than drown in a bathtub! 🙂

            For the end of part 2, statistics, I’ll close with you claim that alleged voter suppression by the GOP was institutional racism. This is less a flaw in your statistics than a basic reasoning error:

            1) Your reasoning that the GOP suppressed black votes via some report from Greg Palast sounds like a conspiracy theory. Was Putin involved? 🙂

            (Side note) Al Gore had no problems suppressing the absentee ballots cast by mostly white veterans even as he whined that he wanted multiple recounts for “every” ballot.

            2) A successful legal action by the GOP to supress votes from a particular category (say, poor people) that disproportionately affect blacks in a particular region isn’t what I meant by institutionalized discrimination. Let’s say a racist cop does decides to stop more blacks on his own initiative even though the department is against it, he has a black supervisor (you know, like Obama being the president who let Putin steal the election), etc. This is just an example of one rogue person or action and not institutionalized discrimination which leads to:

            3) What I meant by institutionalized discrimination was discrimination or preferences based upon race that is stated openly such as prohibiting blacks from going to a particular school, period, such as segregation, etc. More on this later when I got into how the left not only justifies racist discrimination against whites to get even but also just for the hell of it.

            This leads next into part 3 on leftist institutionalized racism against whites and their befuddlement that for some reason, working and middle class whites don’t view them as their benefactors (and how white feminists LOVE racism!)

          24. The lucky one January 3, 2017

            “The point is that the left has a blatant double standard of generalizing negatively about white people” Maybe, just as those on the right, particularly the alt-right,generalize about black people as being genetically or culturally inferior to justify discrimination. Apparently you do recognize that is happening since you go on to say “there’s just as much evidence to justify racist generalizations either way.” I agree that any generalizations based on race are misguided and likely to produce injustice.

            Your dissection of my quote is off. The full quote was “that 96 percent of the 1.2 million households in the top one percent by income were white.” Single parent families, white or black, don’t enter into that unless they are in the top 1% which most, white or black, are not. If my point was that whites in general are wealthier than blacks your point would be worth considering. However the demographic was of the “top one percent by income” of which the other 99% don’t figure in.

            “feminism: single motherhood.” It’s a hell of stretch to attribute the majority of single motherhood to “feminism”. In my experience most are not in the role of single mother by choice. The man left, one way or the other and that accounts for their status, not their celebration of feminism.

            “the “77 cents on a dollar” gender wage gap (hint: women quitting their jobs to live off of a man earn less.)” Of course two incomes is better than one but that doesn’t provide any justification for women being paid less for doing similar work.

            “In any case, why is this anything that I should share collective white guilt over to be discriminated against because I’m “privildged”? You shouldn’t and I think I explained that it’s not about being “privileged” The rich are the privileged ones. Both white and black working class pay for the entitlement of the rich as well as for those unable or unwilling to work. Why should there be any cap on social security for instance. Why do hedge fund managers pay a lower tax rate than laborers?

            “black on white crime is usually higher than vice versa.” That is true but white-on-black killings spiked by 22.5 percent between 2014 and 2015 compared with killings of whites by African Americans which increased by 12.2 percent.

            “homicides in which the offender and victim were of the same race have vastly outnumbered interracial homicides for the past ten years. FBI data show that while 500 black-on-white killings and 229 white-on-black killings were reported in 2015, 2,574 homicides were committed by whites against other whites, and 2,380 by blacks against blacks.”

            Maybe you will disagree but what that tells me is that the increasing wealth disparity is causing an uptick in violent crime by both races. Racists fomenting fear and anger by whites and blacks also plays a role.

            “Your reasoning that the GOP suppressed black votes via some report from Greg Palast sounds like a conspiracy theory.” It’s not a theory when the evidence exists. Did you check Palast’s work? “Was Putin involved?” No, it was the GOP who are no friend to Putin. Trump’s the one having a bromance with Vlad.

            “Al Gore had no problems suppressing the absentee ballots cast by mostly white veterans even as he whined that he wanted multiple recounts for “every” ballot.” I don’t know about that, maybe true but it’s clear that SCOTUS acted inappropriately in stopping the count and awarding Bush the presidency. Our electoral system is a joke. Even the winner of the Electoral College claimed it was rigged. Of course self-serving conman that he is Trump backed of that as soon as he realized he won. He’s still whining about losing the popular vote however. A whining loser is bad enough but a whining winner is pathetic.

            “More on this later when I got into how the left not only justifies racist discrimination against whites to get even but also just for the hell of it.” I’ll look forward to it because frankly I find that laughable. Would they discriminate to gain an advantage? Probably yes but to “get even” or “for the hell of it” seems nonsensical but I’ll await your evidence before judging.

            “working and middle class whites don’t view them (Democrats) as their benefactors” I already know why. The Dems just like the Repubs serve the oligarchy. It used to be different but the majority of them sold out years ago. Clinton is no friend to working class regardless of their color.

            “(and how white feminists LOVE racism!)” That should be interesting as well.

          25. PolishKnightUSA January 11, 2017

            Part 2:B: I think this exchange is getting exponential, You make a detailed response, I make one, etc. so it’s getting big. I’m going to do my best to try to keep it managable. I’m enjoying myself and regret I can’t offer you a beer. This is a portion that is about statistics.

            I think we’ve quibbled over the household income by race and you went into two paragraphs on that and ultimately agreed “two incomes are better than one”. Great. Done. Moving on. OK, I just want to add that it’s not just income but even a housewife (or househusband) also helps to look after the children. This ties into:

            I am amused by your remark that feminism association with single motherhood is a “stretch”. I know this stretches on, but when you refer to single motherhood by “choice”, this begs a question as to “choice”. If I choose to not cook for dinner and wind up eating leftovers, did I choose to or is this a consequence? Feminism demanded higher incomes for women and then when men didn’t earn that much more, many women wound up refusing to marry down.

            Moving on to women being paid less for doing similar work. I’m either astounded you aren’t aware of this or if you’re snowing me, but the 77 cents on a dollar is a misquoted statistic. This is not similar work. It’s an aggregate of all women’s incomes per capita compared to men’s. When women’s choices are factored into account, even huffington post acknowledges that the difference is about 6 percent and that’s not necessarily proven due to sexism but rather margin of error. How to compare men’s and women’s incomes as “equal” when men and women usually lead different lives? Ever hear of statistical normalization and controls? How do you compare apples and oranges? (It ties neatly into a discussion we have later about “white supremecy” and claiming one race is “better” than another?

            Is a classic African American jazz performer inferior to Mozart? 🙂 How to compare thousands of women and men who lead different lives and say what is “equal” work?

            And even if we assume that all 6 percent of that disparity is due to evil sexism against women, consider… this means that women (statistically) continue to mooch off of men for the remaining 17 percent! Where’s all the feminist outrage about women getting alimony, “child” support, welfare, marrying up, etc. while veterans and black men sit on the streets? (I like to chuckle whether a leftist ever “checks” the privilege of a homeless man like some scene out of A Clockwork Orange 🙂

            Regarding social security: I agree it’s messed up and joke that it’s about African American men working to die at an average age of 60 to pay social security benefits for 77 year old white women. 🙂 Again, where’s the outrage that women earn less over their lifetime (with 94% of that disparity due to their own sexist choices!) and then get 5 years MORE benefits than men by living longer?

            When you go into comparing total crimes committed by AA against whites to crime overall, this doesn’t dispute the fact that whites tend to be victims of race crime than vice versa. You later blame “racist formenting” which I find amusing because you cited 2015 when a 1/2 African American was in charge. In addition, it’s WHITES mostly as the victims. So I don’t know what tree you’re barking up, but it’s not boding well for the whites oppressing African Americans narrative.

            Regarding the “suppressed black votes” as “institutional racism”. Evidence exists, certainly for many things (as Vincent Foster’s widow is aware) but my point is that whatever happened, this isn’t institutional racism where black votes, in clear writing as “these black votes will be suppressed” isn’t the case. Unless you have some other example, diversity and race preferences for non-whites are the only legal institutionalized discrimination I’m aware of.

            Regarding Trump’s bromance with Vlad: Obama promised Vlad via Medvedev in a leaked mike conversation in 2012 that he was going to help him after the election. Perhaps Obama didn’t deliver for his new friend? But this is an aside from statistics which we should stick to:

            The electoral college. Now THAT is an interesting topic which I’ll touch on. It’s meant to protect minority interests by lesser populated states having the ability to get more votes and influence via the senate and by those states with more diverse electorates prevailing over ones with more homogenous electorates. When anti-Trumpers called for Electoral college electors to change their votes, Hillary lost MORE than Trump! Note that there is no voting fraud in the elecctoral college reported as far as I know unlike that of illegals. But hey, let’s let people steal votes because the left doesn’t want to issue the poor free ID (also, Mexico, France and Canada has voter ID laws and doesn’t issue free ID. What a bunch of fascist states!)

            Gosh! The elites and 1% should rule and those stupid working people should be suppressed and know their place, right? 🙂 I was laughing as Europeans were lamenting a “populist” mob in the USA and European electorate. Do they even listen to themselves as they speak?

            I went into detail into how the left justifies discrimination against whites for the hell of it and went into that later (“diversity”, women-only/non-white only/owned workplaces) but also that in Europe, there is no need to bash whites to make most of it Europe. It already is. So Swedish and German women welcome non-white rapists and thugs simply to remain consistent with a USA leftist demographic strategic narrative when most Americans wouldn’t notice the paradox between an ideal socialist society being almost entirely white or East Asian (Japan/Korea). That’s insane, IMO. Not idiotic but just insane.

            I don’t know if I went into how white feminists love racism, but I’ll reiterate that Susan B Anthony didn’t want to share the vote with African American women, that white women accused African American men of rape and got them lynched, the massive rate of homelessness and prison for African American men in the welfare state as newly created jobs went to white career women, and white women sure do love demonstrations of white male chivalry by spending 2 months salary to pay rich white guy oligarch DeBeers 100X markups for rocks mined by impovershed African Americans.

            Which… all ties into the household formation and wealth stats you posted above: African American women saw their men’s jobs taken by white women, they and white women blew their money on “bling” to rich white oligarch cartels and designer bags and shoes again with a markup, and then when they couldn’t find a man who earned at least as much as they did, wound up with suffering as single mothers while wages deflated as women flooded the workplace.

            Not only not very noble of feminism, but also pretty darn dumb. “Idiotic”. Insane. Greed driven to stupidity, IMO.

            Myself, FYI, I’m constantly downsizing and decluttering seeking to simplify my life and improve experiences and time with my family over crap. Corporate America LOVES feminism and the rap culture. Ever see a Cadillac commercial with African Americans replacing whites as nobility and getting white servants?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFpSLYY5Pu8

            I’m not offended by this so much as was laughing: Imagine if this commercial was about black royalty in a white horse carriage being replaced by rich whites in a black car getting out of a car showing a high heeled shoe with a black servant woman running up?

            All to sell very expensive GM made cars. SWEET! Me? I buy an economy class Hyundai or Nissan and drive it until the tires fall off. Guess who acquires household wealth faster?

          26. The lucky one January 12, 2017

            I will also try to make my statements more concise. Yes a couple beers would make this more enjoyable and face to face would be quicker and I think more productive. (As long as we didn’t come to blows/Just kidding, I think we’re both beyond that sort of childishness).

            “it’s not just income but even a housewife (or househusband) also helps to look after the children” I agree and that’s one reason why the “3rd worlding” of our country by the greedy is causing so many domestic problems. Dogs that aren’t weaned properly become weak or vicious and people are no different in that regard.

            “If I choose to not cook for dinner and wind up eating leftovers, did I choose to or is this a consequence?” I’d say both.

            “Feminism demanded higher incomes for women and then when men didn’t earn that much more, many women wound up refusing to marry down.” I’ve not seen that and why would marrying someone earning a comparable income be “marrying down”? I would agree that some women, and men, have not been realistic about having children without interrupting their careers. Kids need supervision and interaction with parents. As important as providing food, shelter etc. are they are not enough and that’s why many “privileged” kids are no better weaned than the less well off.
            “the 77 cents on a dollar is a misquoted statistic.” Did I quote that stat? I don’t think so.

            “How to compare men’s and women’s incomes as “equal” when men and women usually lead different lives?” That’s a valid question. In some cases though it is pretty clear cut that a woman is being paid less for comparable work. At the community college I worked at it became pretty obvious when I saw the salary schedule for all employees. Then again some men are paid less for comparable work so it is complex. My main concern for women’s rights has to do with protection from violence and sexual predation, not so much pay differentials.

            “And even if we assume that all 6 percent of that disparity is to evil sexism against women” Actually I think very little of it is due to “evil sexism”. Employers try to pay workers as little as possible. If they think they can get away with paying a woman less they will do so. They will do the same to a man when they can.

            “this means that women (statistically) continue to mooch off of men for the remaining 17 percent!” & “Where’s all the feminist outrage about women getting alimony, “child” support, welfare, marrying up, etc.” Maybe you’re being ironic with “mooching” but a mutual relationship involves many trade-offs and I’m not sure that “mooching” is the best way to understand it when one partner contributes more income. That said, my own personal bias is that when beautiful women marry rich men many years (20 or more) older they are often hardly better than a prostitute, not that I have anything against prostitutes but I don’t see any clear distinction. I’ve seen cases where alimony was deserved and others where it was an outrage and to a lesser degree the same with child support.

            “Again, where’s the outrage that women earn less over their lifetime (with 94% of that disparity due to their own sexist choices!) and then get 5 years MORE benefits than men by living longer?” I disagree with your comment about 94%. Are you suggesting that women should start dying younger or be forced to wait later before receiving benefits?

            “When you go into comparing total crimes committed by AA against whites to crime overall, this doesn’t dispute the fact that whites tend to be victims of race crime than vice versa.” I guess it depends on what you mean by a race crime. A thief will steal from whomever they can. If the thief is black and steals from a white does that make it a race crime? I think not.

            “You later blame “racist formenting”. I don’t think you got that from me but if so out of context like that I’m not sure what you’re referring to so I won’t address it.

            “2015 when a 1/2 African American was in charge.” Now that is amusing, sort of. What exactly is that? “In addition, it’s WHITES mostly as the victims.” Well, drawing from an inference you made in an earlier post would it stand to reason that there are more white crime victims since there are more white people. It’s not insignificant that, although yes there are many poor whites (and will be more as the effects of Trumpism take effect) the wealth lies more within the white communities. Like Willie Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks, “That’s where the money is.”

            “Regarding the “suppressed black votes” as “institutional racism”. Just as in wage discrimination with women it’s not so much “institutional racism” as just using whatever tactic they can to disenfranchise those they believe tend to vote Democrat. The GOP and it’s manipulators will use those same tactics indiscriminately whether the victims are white or black.

            “Regarding Trump’s bromance with Vlad” Stay tuned to the news, although as usual it will be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

            “The electoral college. It’s meant to protect minority interests by lesser populated states having the ability to get more votes and influence via the senate and by those states with more diverse electorates prevailing over ones with more homogenous electorates.” That’s the excuse. The real reason is to prevent the masses from making any real decisions as to who will be in charge. It has worked quite well in that regard.

            “When anti-Trumpers called for Electoral college electors to change their votes” That was a mistake. The EC should be abolished but to do so after an election to nullify the results is anarchy. I think there is enough “dirt” on Trump to force his impeachment and I think that is the route to take.
            “Note that there is no voting fraud in the electoral college reported as far as I know unlike that of illegals.” There also is no proven voter fraud by illegals, just unsubstantiated allegations by Trumpsters whining about his popular vote defeat.

            “Gosh! The elites and 1% should rule and those stupid working people should be suppressed and know their place, right?” I’d say that is pretty much the view of the oligarchy and the duopoly that serves them.

            “So Swedish and German women welcome non-white rapists and thugs simply to remain consistent with a USA leftist demographic strategic narrative” I think that is nonsense.
            “when most Americans wouldn’t notice the paradox between an ideal socialist society being almost entirely white or East Asian (Japan/Korea).” Where is “an ideal socialist society”? There are none, just as there are no ideal capitalist societies.

            “I’ll reiterate that Susan B Anthony didn’t want to share the vote with African American women” At first she did but when it looked like she would lose support for her agenda she threw them under the bus but you can hardly blame other feminists for her sins. Even then some disagreed with Anthony’s tactics.

            “that white women accused African American men of rape and got t hem lynched” Again that is the sin of those who did so, not all or even most women.

            “the massive rate of homelessness and prison for African American men in the welfare state as newly created jobs went to white career women” this comes back to your earlier argument about comparing male and female employment. I don’t think the jobs lost by homeless black men were taken by white career women. More likely they were lost to automation and out sourcing.

            “white women sure do love demonstrations of white male chivalry by spending 2 months salary to pay rich white guy oligarch DeBeers 100X markups for rocks mined by impovershed African Americans.” Again that is the sin of those who do so not all or most women.

            “African American women saw their men’s jobs taken by white women” So you say but I see no proof of that.
            “they and white women blew their money on “bling” to rich white oligarch cartels and designer bags and shoes again with a markup, and then when they couldn’t find a man who earned at least as much as they did, wound up with suffering as single mothers while wages deflated as women floo ded the workplace.” I think that’s is a gross exaggeration but to the degree wages were deflated by women flooding the workplace isn’t that an indication that women are paid less for comparable work?

            “I’m constantly downsizing and decluttering seeking to simplify my life and improve experiences and time with my family over crap.” I think that’s wise and try to do the same.

            “Corporate America LOVES feminism and the rap culture.” Although each may contribute, commercial rap culture specially, Americans appetite for crap is due to much more than that. BTW check out Gil Scott-Heron if you want to hear real “rap” that is rap with a message not just a beat. He is hard on “whitey” but also calls out blacks for their “sins”, US3 is a more modern group with a less political but interesting lyrics.

            “All to sell very expensive GM made cars. SWEET! Me? I buy an economy class Hyundai or Nissan and drive it until the tires fall off. Guess who acquires household wealth faster?” I agree and though I drive a Toyota I expect to get 200,000 miles out of it.

            Okay, well I wasn’t very successful at downsizing but what the hell?

            Here’s a thought about Trump’s “draining the swamp”. I know, now I’m opening up another can of worms.

            “How did a candidate who repeatedly demonized Goldman Sachs as the poster child for a corrupt establishment that owned Washington end up with Goldman Sachs’ progeny filling every post that even tangentially has the odor of money or global finance?”

          27. PolishKnightUSA January 3, 2017

            Part 3: Leftism and white people.

            First off, I want to say I didn’t want to discuss your father in this context because although there’s a lot of ad-hominem stuff flying around here, this takes it real personal and I don’t intend to be disrespectful. So I tread lightly.

            It appears the point of you bringing in your father into the discussion is the classical racist defense: “I don’t hate X people. Some of my best friends are X people.” But this backfires pretty quickly because it invites/begs the question: If your best friend is X, why do you justify policies to marginalize him?

            You claim you don’t need to atone for him, but you just generalized that he’s privileged. Rather than hand-wave that conflict away, your example only intensified it.

            You acknowleged that non-whites commonly commit acts of racism against whites and that your father wasn’t a bad guy despite being white so that leaves us with the question: How do you justify white guilt? You’ve just thrown the whole rational for it under the bus.

            Having reread our exchanges above, I see an olive branch that if I come over to the “good side” as you see it, I, like you and your father, can be white but non-racist and no longer stupid like other alt-righters. So people who disagree with you are automatically racists and bigots and you failt to see how that itself is the ultimate bigotry.

            I quote this exchange in entirety in order to make an important point:

            You: “Have you ever walked down the street with white friends and had some a$$holes ride by and holler honky or peckerwood? ”

            Me: [Cited examples of non-white on white threats and violence.]

            You: [Agreed that you had experienced similar issues by non-whites]

            Me: “In the meantime, you make the preposterous claim that violence against whites is non-existent!”

            You: “That would be preposterous but NO I never said that or implied it in anyway.”

            I call BS, sir. You asked me a question whether I had ever experienced non-white-on-white racism as if you expected I hadn’t while claiming that such experiences by non-whites was common. You made laughable attempts to deny non-white-on-white crime being greater. Heck, this line of reasoning from you isn’t stupid, so much as you hope I’m dumb and some stupid suburban kid who doesn’t know better. It’s also dishonest, IMO, on your part. You knew that whites don’t deserve the sole burden for racism yet you tried to bluster and balderdash your way through the facts to justify general racism against whites.

            Regarding the cookie: You claim I’m making a strawman (that’s the name for it) but you started out with a claim that white oligarchs were somehow playing a race card against me and I was stupidly falling for it. This leads up to an interesting point I wanted to make for a long time:

            The left’s classical retort to right winger complaints about their positions is that we got them through “foxnews” or some oligarch told us and we’re too stupid to think for ourselves so we need leftists to tell us what to think so we’re not bigots anymore.

            For the record, I get my opinion as to the left’s hatred of whites from folks such as yourself who make claims that whites are guilty for saying the N word or attacking non-whites and claiming that black-on-white crime is no big deal, etc. All from you and the leftist media, no oligarch need whispter in my ear. So if you want to see whose driving white people out of the left, look in the mirror!

            So back to the cookie: You came up with half of the cookies coming from the oligarch and as soon as you have a lot of them, then you’ll share some with some of us privileged trailer park folks.

            Why Don’t I Trust You?

            For example: Obama’s wife got a billion dollar contract to build the Obamacare website that was garbage. Most of it went to her college roommate and then the jobs went to India where they did it for pennies on the dollar. The rest of the money went into a, racist pun unintended, black hole.

            Whose to say that those 6 cookies won’t disappear and you’ll say you need more? Or better yet, why haven’t you started sharing some of those cookies with working class whites already?

            And your father does enter into this because you brought him, and yourself really, and you haven’t shown me how you haven’t thrown him under the bus with the rest of us except for some absolution of guilt that “he’s with you” so you don’t blame him, but he didn’t get those cookies either. If you threw your old man under the bus, I doubt I’ll fare much better!

            Trump didn’t “demand” my vote as you put it. He EARNED it. He addressed issues that I have and that you have spent time sweeping under the rug. Whether he follows through, like with all politicians, remains to be seen but I have more confidence in him delivering a “cookie” than I do you.

            Let’s recap for this part so far: You had made claims that whites are collectively responsible for racism and minimized anti-white racism from non-whites and the state. You had argued that whites concerned about this were rubes who were fooled by white racists. You promise that just as soon as the left gets into power, then they’ll rob the rich and share with everyone, but… not just yet. Like MLK, judging people by character rather than race is a nice goal but for the next million years or so, whites need not apply.

            For the final part, I want to address in more detail your last few paragraphs and our fellow motivations.

            Cheers.

          28. PolishKnightUSA January 3, 2017

            Part 4 (final): Where do we (not just you and me but working and middle class whites and the left) go from here?

            In answer to your question, I do know there are black and Latino suburban neighborhoods. That’s a neat kettle of fish which I can go into at another time.

            I think this is closeup time and you asked the question: “How can you propose to know what I feel?”

            In-effing-deed! Er, you’ve been labeling your opponents as bigoted and stupid which requires some kind of psychological insight into their mindset, yes?

            When you said you didn’t feel greater heightened security concerns when going throuh non-white neighborhoods, I can’t tell you that you’re BSing me. Perhaps you’re BSing yourself. Or not. Perhaps you really don’t see it as a problem. Perhaps like you said about “suburban” that you haven’t experienced this as a significant problem more than one way or the other but that being said…

            I get the feeling that you BSd me on obvious things that nearly everyone knows: Black on white crime is much greater. This is a fact that any political person such as you or I would be aware of. I get the feeling you’re trying to sell me a worldview that just doesn’t jibe with what is obvious to me. r.

            So going from here, we can have a dialogue but if someone says “What racism against whites? Preferences for anyone but whites isn’t really racism because you’re privileged and besides, someday we won’t do that when we have a utopia and the rich share.” Yeah, great. Listen, I’ve heard that line before. Most working and middle class whites who have fled the Democratic party have also heard it. We can talk until we’re blue in the face, but I’m not buying it. You don’t have to buy my schtick either which is ok because I think we should have this debate as we discussed in the open. It is going to happen even if there will be a lot of eff words dropped by folks such as Trump doing it. I don’t mind Chris Rock also dropping a few. Let’s settle this and move on.

            And with that, I think that’s a good start to the New Year!

            PS: It’s improper to accuse me of “hypocrisy” in assuming that you secretly share my fears and prejudice. Hypocrisy would be me claiming you have them while I don’t while engaging in said fears. Like with bigot and moronic, these terms have been overly used and abused often even by the right. Another word abused? “Literally”. When I sometimes drop that word myself, I stop for a second and ask if it applies and laugh and take it back. People literally are not using the word literally correctly most of the time.

          29. The lucky one January 4, 2017

            “I didn’t want to discuss your father in this context.. because I don’t intend to be disrespectful. So I tread lightly.” I have to say I’ve haven’t noticed any tendency on your part to not be disrespectful but then again I’m just a liberal “douchebag” as you identified me in an early post.

            You’re right though that I shouldn’t have mentioned my dad since you misinterpreted nearly everything I said in that regard. I don’t understand how you could draw the conclusion that I thought my dad was privileged when I clearly said that he grew up in poverty and worked his ass off to provide better for his family. I was the privileged one in the sense that I never went hungry and could go to college. The scholarships I earned wouldn’t have been enough without his help. My point in mentioning him and my background in general was to counter the impression you try to present that you can speak for the white working class more authentically than me, a poor deluded liberal.

            “How do you justify white guilt?” I don’t know. I’ve never tried because I don’t have any. That’s just your victim mentality speaking.

            “I see an olive branch that if I come over to the “good side” as you see it” Sorry you misinterpreted my attempt to find common ground as trying have you “come over” to my side. I never had any illusions that you would change your mind on any of your cherished beliefs. No I never said that all those who disagree with me are racists or bigots but yes all racists and bigots are stupid.

            Me: “In the meantime, you make the preposterous claim that violence against whites is non-existent!”

            You: “That would be preposterous but NO I never said that or implied it in anyway.”

            Yes and I’ll stand by the statement that I never said that or implied it in any way that violence against whites is non-existent!”

            “You knew that whites don’t deserve the sole burden for racism yet you tried to bluster and balderdash your way through the facts to justify general racism against whites.” I don’t know who should deserve the burden of racism, nobody deserves it but it’s worth noting that it was the racism of black slavery and the persecution that continued during reconstruction and on into the 20th century that created the ground for the racial issues we ALL deal with today.

            “The left’s classical retort to right winger complaints about their positions is that we got them through “foxnews” or some oligarch told us and we’re too stupid to think for ourselves” I don’t believe I’ve made that comment to you but yes I’ve seen some others do so. Just as I’ve seen right wingers make the similar claim about leftists.

            “claiming that black-on-white crime is no big deal: I never made that claim. All crime especially the violent crime is “big deal”.

            “So if you want to see whose driving white people out of the left, look in the mirror!” I know what is driving people out of the Democratic Party, not the left, the two terms are not synonymous. It’s the movement of Dems to the right and pandering to the rich and corporations just like the GOP. It’s got so there is not a lot of difference on economic or foreign affairs issues.

            “So back to the cookie: You came up with half of the cookies coming from the oligarch and as soon as you have a lot of them, then you’ll share some with some of us privileged trailer park folks.” Again you are creating a strawman. If you want to attack my position stick to my own words not those you put in my mouth.

            “Why Don’t I Trust You?” That’s simple. You don’t know me and don’t want to because I don’t see things your way.
            “Or better yet, why haven’t you started sharing some of those cookies with working class whites already?” That’s another easy one. It’s because the oligarchs are still holding onto the other 11 cookies.

            “If you threw your old man under the bus, I doubt I’ll fare much better!” I don’t get how you came to the conclusion that I threw my dad under the bus. I think you’re coming off the rails here.

            “You had made claims that whites are collectively responsible for racism” Another of your strawmen. “You had argued that whites concerned about this were rubes who were fooled by white racists.” And another. “You promise that just as soon as the left gets into power, then they’ll rob the rich and share with everyone” And another. “judging people by character rather than race is a nice goal but for the next million years or so, whites need not apply.” And one more.

            “Where do we (not just you and me but working and middle class whites and the left go from here?” No I meant where do “we the people” go from here because left and right ain’t cutting it and is just keeping us at each other’s throats.

            “How can you propose to know what I feel?”

            “you’ve been labeling your opponents as bigoted and stupid”

            No not since the start of our protracted conversation. Many of the right wing posters who come to NM for shites and giggles don’t engage in a conversation. They come to insult and provoke and I make no apologies for giving them the same. Note that I’m not calling you a racist here but yes racists are fools, no matter what their skin color.

            Not BSing at all about being concerned passing through a predominantly black as opposed to a white neighborhood. I look at many things to determine my safety, skin color is not high on that list.

            “I get the feeling that you BSd me on obvious things that nearly everyone knows: Black on white crime is much greater.” As I acknowledged to you when you corrected an earlier statement I made black on white crime is somewhat greater. The fact is the odds of experiencing violent crime are statistically small, though certainly not insignificant. This is a complex problem that can’t be given justice in our forum, but it’s worth noting that 49% of murder victims are black males and that murder is more likely in poor areas than the more affluent. That tells me that poverty is the main problem and that violence is a symptom of it.

            “if someone says “What racism against whites? Preferences for anyone but whites isn’t really racism because you’re privileged” I think that’s a valid point and greater opportunity for all regardless of race is what is truly needed but we won’t get it with the current and worsening economic disparity.
            “and besides, someday we won’t do that when we have a utopia and the rich share.” Another of your strawmen.
            “You don’t have to buy my schtick either which is ok because I think we should have this debate as we discussed in the open.” We agree on that.

            “Let’s settle this and move on.” I don’t think we’ll ever settle this but yes time for us to move on.

            “It’s improper to accuse me of “hypocrisy” in assuming that you secretly share my fears and prejudice.” I don’t believe I did that because I don’t share your “fears and prejudice “. I have my own, thank you.

            So anyway, likely my last post on this thread. Despite our fireworks and failure to reach much common ground I do respect your willingness to engage. These conversations need to happen but they would be much better face to face, Hopefully they will occur more often. We will have to wait and see but I think it won’t be long before a majority see Trump for the lying conman that he is. Maybe then we’ll realize that as I quoted from MLK earlier “we must learn to live together as brothers or we will perish together as fools”

            Cheers, I truly to wish you a good life and one for me too.

          30. PolishKnightUSA January 12, 2017

            Part 3b (I believe?): I think we’re going in the exchange about 3 behind. I’m ok with that but just want you know if I appear to not have followed what you said later, it wasn’t due to ignorance or dishonest on my part (at least not in that case!) I am tempted to read ahead but the challenge would then be that I’d start trying to address everything at once and that gets messy. I think it’s interesting to see perhaps if I draw a conclusion from something you wrote and then find you had addressed it differently in an exchange I had not yet read. This is a neat challenge to my own understanding of our philosophies.

            Again, I hate to talk about your father but this begs the question as to why you mentioned him or what does this prove? How does this make you as authentic as me about addressing the concerns of working class whites? Does it mean that you throwing your father under the bus as “white privileged” would be ok because you did it to your own dad? I think that’s worse, actually. In addition, as I said before, if you do this to your own father that certainly doesn’t make me think that you or your political philosophy is going to share those “11 cookies” with me, a complete stranger after the oligarchs give a few up.

            Your next remark is quite amusing because I have heard it several times from the left (note: Not to quibble over whether you’re in the left or not, but just what I consider the left):

            “That’s just your victim mentality speaking.”

            Like, wow! It’s a tremendously revealing kind of remark to hear from someone who appears (my impression) to sympathize with the standard portfolio of leftist victim groups including women and African Americans along with other non-whites who demand special privileges in the name of equality and then accuse me of having a victim mentality.

            It’s useful to pause here and ask the important question: Why should I or other working and middle class whites, including in Europe which the left aspires to cast the whole world into (when was the last time Obama said that the ideal developed nation was Mexico, for instance?) should remain or come back to the left?

            As you say later, you attempted to “find common ground” with me to release my cherished beliefs but this is less “cherished” for me than simple personal survival: I’m Not Jumping Under A Bus and the more you rationalize white guilt the further I, and others, step away.

            Which should give you food for thought in considering that if white guys in the USA, and Europe for that matter, feel alientated from leftist politics, will the leftist coalition of non-whites in control retain European marxist values? For an answer to that, look at how Michelle Obama was in bed with spending a billion dollars on an obamacare website that didn’t work and Hillary Clinton shoved Bernie out. Gosh, when you throw someone else under a bus, your side follows. Check out a book on what happened to the nice folks like Trotsky in the Russian Revolution. 🙂

            Darn it, I did read ahead a little and this ties into your next claim that “yes all racists and bigots are stupid.”

            Which begs the question, again, that if they’re so dumb then how are these boogymen a viable threat deserving of (legitimate) victim status for non-white males? Hmmm? If we’re all a bunch of toothless yokels then why continue to discriminate against us in education? INDEED! That was a useful ephiphany you created for me in that it makes obvious how the left calls white working class people stupid and uneducated and then sneeringly continues to deny them educational opportunities that would make them unstupid.

            But of course, you’ll give us that “cookie” when some magic thing happens. We can just hang from a tree and hold our breath until it does.

            In regards to bigoted racists, let’s consider this statement but slightly reworded for effect: “”I would hope that a wise working class white man with the richness of his experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a Latina woman who hasn’t lived that life”

            So she tried to explain that she was respecting everyone’s experiences, but just that her’s was better than another person due to race and gender.

            We can dance around this all night long but I won’t call you “stupid” for that. I think very smart people can be amazing “hamster wheel” gamers trying to rationalize the impossible for their cherished beliefs.

            For the record, I do have a lot in common with you as I said. I don’t like the oligarchs much either. IF they go down from my effort, it won’t be with folks such as yourself for reasons mentioned above. Which leads me to bring up something I thought should wait until later, but why not now?

            Let’s say I agreed with you on pretty much most everything except for the white male privilege paradigm? You “win”. Let’s say all of us white guys could tomorrow get your whole agenda passed but…

            No more “diversity” or white male privilege stuff. You’d have to throw BLM, feminism, La Raza, and the rest under the bus. The question is: Could you do it?

            So now WHO here is the one holding onto their cherished beliefs? I offered you a common ground and you don’t want it. In fact, perhaps you really don’t care about all that great European marxist stuff such as free daycare, healthcare, etc. after all and, IMO, I think the left largely is the same way. As white males flee, the European marxist ideal either dies or leaves…

            With Me.

            You then say: “I don’t know who should deserve the burden of racism, nobody dserves it but it’s worth noting […]”

            This sounds like a waffle. You say you’re not for X and then you rationalize it anyway.

            In any case, regarding the buden of black slavery and persecution, leftism made it WORSE by handing over entry level jobs to white feminists and non-white non-African immigrants and single mother African American households sinking into poverty. If that’s the solution, I wonder how bad the problem was!

            Regarding my claim that you claimed that black-on-white crime is no big deal. You tried to make a statistical argument that it wasn’t a big deal compared to crime overall. I can cite that if you like. Let’s review what you just said above about the ground for racial issues we deal with today: Black on white crime and open institutionalized discrimination is against whites, not blacks, today.

            You claim the Dems are moving to the right and alienating whites. I agree with you that the Dems and Repub elite are largely on the same page with regards to economic issues but it’s clear that whites have been fleeing the Democratic party for some time because they’re sick of La Raza and other immigration policies. Otherwise, why wouldn’t Hispanics and Blacks have fled the Democratic party over economic issues at the same rate?

            Actually, Trump did make an inroad with Hispanics and African Americans on economic issues which I refer to above: The right is moving left on economic issues and moving right on ethnic ones while the left holds onto pro non-white ethnic issues while swinging rightward meaning you may have no home politically.

            If it makes you feel any better, I faced this prospect about 10 years ago which I why I love how this election turned out. Home is moving towards me rather than me having to go to it. It’s like the world somehow is aligning with my cherished beliefs which is pretty cool for me.

            You consider my claim about the cookie to be a strawman but I invite you to disprove it. If you are out to share cookies with poor trailer park white guys, why doesn’t your left (or ideology) already seek to do so? Why wait? Ok, so I’m wrong. Show me. But I have quotes from you now saying that you’d like to judge on character but… and but… and but…

            When I don’t hear “but”, I’ll believe you.

            Even if you have just 1 out of 12 cookies to “share”, you could still share some of that 1 cookie with trailer park whites ESPECIALLY, as I observed above, you claim they need it more than anyone to educate them out of ignorance. “I’ll show those ignorant people! I’ll deny them an eduation because they’re such bigots! That’ll educate them!”

            It’s like that scene in The Sopranos where Paulie takes a Russian guy out to the woods to kill him and says: “Your attitude is why I’m killing you. I hope you learned a lesson from this.”

            I’m honestly laughing now because this is amazingly humorous for someone who can be amused by Opera and tragic humor.

            Your next remark about “we the people” illustrates you just don’t get it: As long as you continue to rationalize the “white privilege” narrative and apply it to justify discrimination against me, I’m not letting my guard down and sure, if that means I’m at your throat too, so to speak, so be it.

            You claim that color is not high on your list for safety but I will personally advise my daughter, for her sake, to certainly make it a significant factor not in a hate filled manner but also logistical in that to be safe, don’t stand out. If you’re in a rich neighborhood and don’t want to be hassled, look rich. With a 5:1 black on white race crime ratio, it would be a bad father if I didn’t advise her to be more careful in SE DC late at night than in an Arkansas trailer park. You’re free to do and advise what you like, of course.

            ” I think that’s a valid point an d greater opportunity for all regardless of race is what is truly needed but we won’t get it with the current and worsening economic disparity. ”

            What that means to me is “blah blah blah but… we can’t get around to trailer park whites yet. Sorry.”

            I wish you a good life too but I’m a huge history buff and I see that there are historical conflicts on the horizon. You and I may not be on the same side which is ok. I have friends who include someone who lost her brother at the Battle of Stalingrad, a former Soviet soldier, a communist, a Liberian aid worker from the 70’s, and I’m married to a former Communist Pioneeer. So I strive to retain perspective and I find it tragic when there is harm due to these battles. I also know that throwing myself under the bus, while a noble gesture, won’t make them go away.

            I strive to ensure I’m on the winning side and also, almost as important, that the winning side is on with me. Up until recently, I was worried my side was the right, but losing. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case now.

          31. The lucky one January 13, 2017

            I’ll wait until you catch up before I make my final comments but I did want to address your confusion regarding my father. I shouldn’t have brought him up because he’s not really germane to the dialogue. In fact he’d think I was crazy for even having this conversation. I can almost hear him saying “Don’t you have anything better to do?”

            I can’t for the life of me figure out how you came to the conclusion that I thought my father was privileged or that I “threw him under the bus”. The only thing I said about my father regarding privilege is that he was not so blessed but that he worked his ass off and sacrificed so that my brother I could be privileged to get an education and not have to work and do without like he did.

            “How does this make you as authentic as me about addressing the concerns of working class whites?” It doesn’t except to show that I came from a working class background but I don’t need to authenticate my views. They are mine and I don’t claim to represent anyone but myself just as your views are your own and not representative of the working class. Bottom line, neither of us speaks for anyone but ourselves. Our points stand or fall on their own merit without regard to who we are.

          32. Sand_Cat December 29, 2016

            Thanks for confirming you’re an ignorant bigot, and providing some amusement in doing so!

          33. PolishKnightUSA December 29, 2016

            Versus a very informed bigot.

            Indeed, the left prides itself on spending a great deal of time and energy to believe the most ridiculous things such as bashing white people will make the world into a Swedish utopia or that making western men and importing Sharia law migrants will end the era of feminists fearing some man “manspreading” on the metro. Yeah, really has worked out splendidly especially in blue state regions.

            But hey, they’re smarter than me so what do I know? Hahaha!

          34. Sand_Cat December 29, 2016

            There is virtually no “left” in the US, idiot. Despite all your whining about “liberals” and the “far left,” the last liberal president was Lyndon Johnson, but even Barry Goldwater would likely be branded a “liberal” by you morons because he was actually an honest and honorable man, clearly liberal vices these days.
            Don’t give me your pathetic ignorance about “the left,” or your projection of your bigotry on me. Your whole post is laughable.

          35. PolishKnightUSA December 30, 2016

            It’s interesting how leftists often use the accusation that all right wingers are Foxnews watching drones when they use the same vernacular and narrative so consistently. Sand_Cat, I’ve heard your argument so many times, that I have finely honed a response.

            One thing I hear often from leftists is to claim that right wing arguments are “whining” which is amuing since it’s the left that needed coloring books and Xanax to get over the Trump election. I did just fine, thank you very much. 🙂 Then you say I’m projecting. When a projectionist projects a projection, what is that? 🙂 The left is all about whining and arguments for special privileges for everyone (except a certain white and male segment of the population) and claiming to help everyone but then argue that their opponents shouldn’t “whine”. Yeah, the world is full of such selfish, whiney, hypocritical jerks! 🙂

            In the meantime, the leftist universe is collapsing even as they thought they were going to have a celebration party with the Hillary election. Now, even Europe is asking if Sharia law is what they want and instead of finalizing a great Soviet victory, it’s USSR collapse 2.0.

            Enjoy the laugh. We can have one together but for different reasons.

      2. charleo1 December 29, 2016

        Poor wittle knight. Is big bad diversity ewadacating you?

        1. PolishKnightUSA December 29, 2016

          Clearly, you don’t have much sympathy for the concerns of working and middle class white people. It’s so surprising that Trump won and Europe is sliding to the right. As the Beatles would put it: “Back in in the USSR!” (Collapse, that is)

          Actually, it’s the white self-hating (or at least hating the “inferior” non-elite whites) leftists who are eradicating… themselves. And quite effectively too. Nobody has fewer children than a gender studies feminist major next to a planned parenthood clinic. Bernie Sanders couldn’t win the Dem primary because… there weren’t any white Democrats left to vote for him! Trotsky (as my wife affectionately referred to Bernie) was the old white male that was dead, not guys like Trump.

          So good going! Real “progress” there! Good luck with trying to keep European socialism going with the Sharia law crowd.

          1. charleo1 December 29, 2016

            Do not pretend to know my motivations, or convince me you know the Sander’s platform. In your present state of mind, you couldn’t appreciate either of them. Have your white pity party. But don’t expect to see this white boy at any of your KKK meetings.

          2. PolishKnightUSA December 29, 2016

            Regarding the KKK, could you please tell me what La Raza means in Spanish? 🙂

            And pity party? I’ll be celebrating the Trump inaugural in person on 1/20 in DC. You’re invited for happy hour! Heck, I’ll even buy you a brew.

          3. Aaron_of_Portsmouth January 1, 2017

            It’s not a matter of no concern for the working class, a sentiment which the GOP pays lip-service to. Have you taken notice of Trump’s Cabinet and Trump’s history of stiffing unions? Are you that daft and blind?
            No, Polish defender—We have no consideration for those who insist on exalting ignorance and belligerence as a virtue. as you do.

            Maybe you exult in being benighted because of your dearth of religiosity and developing a virtuous character. Partisan politics don’t enhance one iota the acquisition of spiritual virtues. I’m surprised your parents utterly failed to make you aware of its importance. Does you wife lack spiritual virtues as well?

            You and your wife have fun toasting America’s first Emperor.—y’all hear?

          4. PolishKnightUSA January 1, 2017

            Most of the private sector unions have put the interests of workers aside to support massive immigration (legal, illegal, and quasi legal) for partisan politics so I say eff ’em.

      3. Aaron_of_Portsmouth December 29, 2016

        What makes you sure of that? Are you familiar with the sensibilities of the Swedish people, or do you just like to make sweeping generalizations of entire countries.
        Whatever the case, you’re just showing us all that you’re a twig that has been cut off from the tree of humanity, lying withered on the ground and slowly decaying for want of a connection with the tree.

        You might want to read your Bible in order to reacquaint yourself with what it means to be human and what responsibilities, moral and otherwise, come with being a creation of God.

        The world of humanity should NEVER be put in stark terms of “Us versus Them”, Polish Knight. That’s an anachronism that belongs to a bygone era, eons ago. If you think you should stand against God’s Reality He’s established, that all Humanity derives from Him, then you must come to the conclusion that you are as a weed that doesn’t want to intertwine itself with healthier members of the “garden”.

        1. PolishKnightUSA December 29, 2016

          First off, I’m not a religious (yeah, I know a Polish knight) and in any case, Polish Knights of old were not open borders types.

          Anyhoo, regarding Sweden: I spent some time with friends in Stockholm after hopping over from Helsinki and Riga and am somewhat familiar with the region. Poles I know say that foreigners have a nickname for Swedes: “kittens” because they’re so easy to threaten. Here’s a funny youtube video of a feminist begging a red-pill anti-feminist to do something about the wolves the feminist sheep invited onto the farm. The guy is laughing as the feminist realizes that Swedish feminism is effed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25VVmCviVao&list=LLD60t2WWNctKuCzx8ijvgdw&index=23

          Regarding the twig cut from the tree: It’s the leftist snowflakes who live in bastions of western privilege and don’t know much about the rural regions of the USA much less the rest of the world. As I point out elsewhere in this discussion, the left wanted white genocide and they got it: for white liberal women and men who are being replaced by Sharia law advocates. If they planned it that way, I can’t for the reason see why but if they didn’t, then it’s pretty spectacularly stupid.

          Enjoy 2017, the year President Trump is inagurated. If you would like to celebrate with me, my wife and I will be at happy hour at the Trump International afterwards!

          1. Aaron_of_Portsmouth January 1, 2017

            Judging from your comment that your’re not very religious, I gain an insight into what causes you to be a worshiper of Trump and your own self. Without a Religious compass one becomes easily seduced to the whispering of amoral people like Trump—which is why you and your wife feel obliged to offer libations at the altar of Trump when you invite me to have a drink with the two of you in honor of Emperor Donald J. Trump’s coronation. I’ll have to pass on you and your wife’s idolatrous planning. But thank you anyway.

          2. Aaron_of_Portsmouth January 1, 2017

            Judging from your comment that your’re not very religious, I gain an insight into what causes you to be a worshiper of Trump and your own self. Without a Religious compass one becomes easily seduced to the whispering of amoral people like Trump—which is why you and your wife feel obliged to offer libations at the altar of Trump when you invite me to have a drink with the two of you in honor of Emperor Donald J. Trump’s coronation. I’ll have to pass on you and your wife’s idolatrous planning. But thank you anyway.

          3. PolishKnightUSA January 1, 2017

            One of the strange things I find about Christian puritanism (not saying you, just an observation) is the rejection of alcohol. Jesus made water into wine at a wedding for his first miracle. Regarding morality: I’m actually quite thoughtful about it perhaps moreso than most people who follow a moral compass set in their youth while I’ve been continually re-examining mine every few years or so. Do you really want to trust someone who set his moral compass at an age when he couldn’t be trusted to drive a car?

            Trump an emperor? Such delightful hysteria. If the guy simply acts as chief executive as defined by the Constitution and starts enforcing immigration law, that would be a great start. Nothing really radical there which is what makes it so radical: The notion a country has borders and immigration laws. What a historical election. I’m hoping he really follows through with his “imperial” designs there.

            Whether he follows through with his “populist” agenda as president, his election set the tone for a cultural change not only in the USA but the world as working class people start to get recognition ahead of celebrities, elites, and talking heads. That isn’t idolatry. It’s Democracy and I would even add at its best (and the best it has been for a half century.)

            Anyhoo, the invitation to the altar still stands. I hope I have tickets from my senator’s office (he’s holding a raffle!) Wish me luck!

          4. Aaron_of_Portsmouth January 2, 2017

            A very strange reply you went through a lot of effort to write. Let’s see if I can help on a few curious remarks:
            1) What does alcohol have to do with the big picture that Christianity places before us? You may not be aware, but the use of wine in the Bible is used as a metaphor in parables and similes in the Bible, but in the context of a specific law, it is meant to be taken literally. But alcohol or not is irrelevant to the theme of morality.
            2) When I say idolatry I mean the worship of idols—things or personalities which one might attribute in an inordinate way of having great power in and of themselves. So, when I say you observe idolatry in your seemingly infatuation and giddiness over Trump and his victory, both the person and the victory assume mythic stature in your mind. This is a form of idolatry. And to keep referencing a person(i.e., Trump) shows a personality worship akin to what is done in N. Korea.
            3) What on earth do you mean by the following bizarre reference—“…Do you really want to trust someone who set his moral compass at an age when he couldn’t be trusted to drive a car?” To whom are you referring and what does driving a car have to do with morality?

            PolishKnight, you seem awfully confused. Which is a condition suffered shared by many Trump followers for some unknown reason.

            In summary, my assertions in response to your giddy joy over Trump’s victory, and on how you seem to revolve around Trump and all he represents, is a sign of someone who admittedly says they have little religious sentiment and therefore are easily drawn to a personality as a substitute.

          5. PolishKnightUSA January 2, 2017

            1) Alcohol: I was just having fun. If you want someone to live in a commune engaging in self-flaggelation, that’s not for me.
            2) Me and Trump’s bromance. I think you exaggerate and perhaps project onto me. I used his name once and referred to him in discussion with you on the matter. You used his name 4 times alone in the past comment alone.

            That being said, I think he deserves a lot of credit simply for running and taking on the establishment. I’ll even give someone like Obama basic credit for becoming president. There are a lot of half-white affirmative action recipients out there that won’t be remembered by anyone. So just winning deserves a fair measure of credit in my view.

            Continuing to compare Trump to Obama, both were symbols. Many were excited about Obama simply being the first (half) African-American president and Trump also is a trailblazer and that’s what I’m excited about him for. I don’t think he literally is going to change the world into a better place simply for being Trump, but I think he has shown tremendous leadership so far.

            Heck, if you want to accuse me of idoltry as being wrong, then you should tear up your voter registration card and never vote again because you expect an “idol” to represent you!

            3) I made my point pretty clear. I’ll explain it again going back to your question/comment and my response:

            You accused me of being weak minded/willed: “Without a Religious compass one becomes easily seduced to the whispering of amoral people like Trump”

            I responded that I have been very thoughtful about my life choices and engaged in retrospection causing me to abandon many religious principles of my youth and compared myself to others who adopted their religious principles when they were young. I compared this to driving a car at the age of 14. Many people adopt these principles, religious and political, at an age when they lack the cognitive ability or knowledge to question those beliefs either for logical usefulness, consistency, or even relevance to their personal lives. Like with driver’s licenses and age of consent, the law reminds us that kids aren’t ready yet for that commitment.

            So I’m saying I have evolved and am more thoughtful than many seemingly religious people who engage in massive emotional and intellectual effort to rationalize cherished childhood beliefs, including religion, rather than to become a better person or even to achieve the goals that initially drew them into that belief to begin with.

            It’s a pretty big deal and I can understand why you didn’t “get it” at first because I think nearly all people out there are effectively ideological zombies on autopilot. I perhaps am more “conscious” of this because I had external motivations to consider change and if I had been more comfortable, perhaps I would still be just a bigger version of my 14 year old religious self.

            In closing, I got an honest (not sardonic or mocking) chuckle out of your final repeat accusation that I’m some kind of Trump worshiper when most religions are based upon cult of personalities: Buddha, Christ, Mohammad, and even the Hebrew God is viewed as a masculine sky persona represented by prophets who are powerful men. Here I am chewing the fat with you and putting my beliefs on the line and willing to adapt to change (rather than just name calling and walking away like most people plan to do.) I’m actually willing to change if you can convince me. I’m not saying it’s likely or that you’re doing a very good job (you’re awful, even by the standards of the internet) but I’m there. So for you to level that accusation is truly laughable and amusing to me and has made my new year and I thank you and that drink on me is free if you like, but I don’t want you to get your knickers twisted over it. Cheers.

    2. the lucky one January 1, 2017

      For some reason i was unable to reply to your latest resonse to me so here it is.
      “It’s funny that you redefined moronic as nonsensical and then came up with this:” No I didn’t define moronic as nonsensical but actually distinguished between the two but I guess that didn’t fit your narrative so you ignored it, classic right wing tactic. Something can be moronic but clearly stated with well defined points. Nonsensical refers to a statement has no understandable points.

      Cases in point: My statements
      1- “Many African-Americans are mixed race, probably most given the history of slavery, and many “whites” are as well though for I think obvious reasons it has been hidden and they may not know it themselves.”
      2-“I think that when one has lived in a culture that has favored whites that the loss of that privilege seems like oppression.”

      You may consider them moronic if you wish but you had no trouble deciphering my meaning. Now this is nonsensical:
      “Finally, regarding stupidity. Jews tend to vote leftist and in the end, have resulted in increasing anti-semitism in Europe and the USA from their new Islamic friends and The Race (La Raza) “fights” against African Americans for privileges (or reparations) along with other new leftist groups. So in the end, they have lowered their own standard of living. As Forrest Gump would put it: Stupid is as stupid does. Why have leftists who threatened to leave America after Trump won not se ttled down in Malmo, Mexico, or other “Diverse” regions of the world?”

      I understand bits and pieces of that but it’s so all over the place it’s impossible to reason with.
      We may agree that the most important division in this country is between the ultra-rich and the rest of us. Whites in general are “privileged” in the sense that they have not suffered discrimination and violence simply because of their skin color. I’m fully aware of poverty among whites having come from similar circumstances myself. My dad struggled and kept us above poverty level but it put him in an early grave and I had many friends who weren’t as lucky as me.

      Have you ever walked down the street with white friends and had some a$$holes ride by and holler honky or peckerwood? It’s not uncommon for blacks to experience that with the operative word being n****r. Not as much today as when I was younger but I think that kind of shite will increase now that the racists have a sympathetic person as prez. I’m white but my wife and many friends are black. I’ve had to shut the mouth of more than one racist and I don’t look forward to going back to those days.

      “your inability to see how telling working class whites that they have been “privileged” and are whining about losing their privileges somehow doesn’t make them rush out to register Democrat” I’ve never suggested that anyone do that. I’m not a Democrat. I think Sanders is the most sympathetic to working people and was by far the most honest candidate from either party but both parties serve the oligarchy. That’s why even Sanders’ very moderate version of social democracy was unacceptable to the party. The “privileged are the billionaires and their poor cousins the millionaires. Most of the left and right BS is designed to keep workers fighting each other for the crumbs.

      “you using your intelligence to rationalize the irrational” Okay I’m going to turn one of your complaints back on you. Making that statement without explaining what is irrational and why and supplying a “rational” alternative is no different than calling someone or their ideas stupid.
      “For example, the space program in the 1960’s was government getting some serious stuff done.” It seems you define any government program as socialism. True?
      “I think that the government robbing from the oligarchs (whom I couldn’t care less about)” Well there is something we agree on!

      I’m not interested in “throwing anyone from the working class under the bus. Here’s a “joke” for you.
      An oligarchic sits down at the table with a white working man and a black working man. There is a plate with 12 cookies on the table. Immediately the oligarchic takes 11 of the cookies. He then cocks an eye at the white man, gestures toward the black man and says “He wants some of your cookie”.
      “So up in the Northeast, Bernie got votes from the few remaining white guys while in the rest of the country, the non-whites said Hillary was better.” IMO another example of nonsense or at least greatly oversimplified thinking.
      “Hillary is in bed with capitalist cronies” I agree with that but fail to see how Trump is any departure from that. There may be some good ideas on the “alt-right” but the blatant racism associated with their “ideology” makes me deaf to their rants. If the more intelligent and sensible among them can step forward and displace the racists like Spencer, Duke and Bannon they may have something important to contribute. I think we won’t see any “solutions” that help we the people coming from the GOP and unless Clinton’s defeat mobilizes serious soul searching among the Dems not from them either.

      “Regarding the stereotypical stupid white supremacist:” I don’t think it’s a stereotype. The term stupid white supremacist is redundant. Anyone who believes the “race” they identify with is superior to any other is a fool, plain and simple. “historical poverty” is a real stumbling block but many poor whites are not racists so poverty is no excuse. It’s worth noting that poverty is more endemic among blacks but I think as the 1% continues to funnel a greater % of the nation’s wealth into their own pockets the ratio will balance out.

      “Ironically, your definition of bigotry, and I quote: “someone who assigns inferiority to someone else and is intolerant of their views” applies well to you”
      You’re entitled to that opinion of me but I disagree. I don’t assign inferiority to any group of people as a group. If I label someone as stupid it is because of their words or behavior, not skin color or economic status. I’ve never in any way contributed to “denying anyone an education” via race preferences or dismissed anyone’s viewpoints except based on the dishonesty or faulty reasoning they present.

      I will admit a bias against the 1%. There probably are people within that small group with good hearts that enjoy their wealth but don’t try to have it all and some may even do unselfish good in the world. The greedy ones overshadow them however, at least in my eyes.

      “PS: MLK. That’s the guy who said we should judge people on character rather than skin color, right? If only that applied to affirmative action…” I agree, if only we as a nation supported high quality education, healthcare and adequate nutrition for all citizens regardless of their background then I would fully support a meritocracy. Let each rise to the level their talent and motivation will take them without any sort of “affirmative action”. I don’t think affirmative action has been a good thing for the underprivileged in general of any race.

  3. Dominick Vila December 29, 2016

    Turning themselves into alleged victims is one of the most common tools used by those engaged in heinous behavior to justify their inhuman behavior. There is, obviously, no white genocide. There is no alt-right. The white majority in America is not in political or economic decline. What we have is a resurgence of ethnic and cultural hatred, being justified with claims of victim-hood that are nothing short of laughable.

    Reply
    1. charleo1 December 29, 2016

      They feel they finally have a champion in the White House. So who can blame them for a round or two of chest thumping, and high fives? Or being a bit giddy at the prospect that their elevated exposure would spread their hateful message to millions, resulting in perhaps tens of thousands of new converts. And with the numbers will come the money, and with the money, and numbers they can now call themselves a movement, and movements have the air of respectability. It has been informative to see which groups because of Trump, see their best opportunities for growth in decades.

    2. Charles Winter December 29, 2016

      The European-American working class legitimately feels itself to be in decline. There have been declines in factory jobs, which have been their province for several decades, and those declines have been over several decades.

      What do we do to replace factory jobs? I suggest that we need to have a guaranteed annual income

      1. Dominick Vila December 30, 2016

        It may eventually come to that. Not because we like the idea, but out of necessity.
        I found out a few minutes ago that Amazon patented a drone that will deliver packages directly to customer. The intent is to reduce operating costs, and expedite deliveries. While we all marvel at the technological advances that indicate the tremendous achievements made during the last few decades, and that suggest what life is going to be like in the not too distant future, we should also consider the effects of technology on labor, and what it means to future generations.
        The main reason for the erosion of assembly line jobs is not outsourcing, or greedy corporations, but automation/robotics. We can punish greedy corporations, use tariffs and sanctions to limit the effects of cheaper imports, what is not going to be easy is to stop, or mitigate, the effects of robotics on the work market.

        1. charleo1 December 30, 2016

          That’s right Dom. I don’t believe they ever did say what George Jetson actually did for a living….

          1. Dominick Vila December 30, 2016

            🙂

  4. Mama Bear December 29, 2016

    If white supremacists are allowed to continue to gain mainstream acceptance, the “ethnic cleansing” we have seen in ignorant uneducated unintelligent parts of the world will be worldwide. Civilization will slip backwards into the neo dark age where ignorance is a virtue and knowledge and enlightenment a vice. We should all be terrified for the futures of our children and grandchildren in such a world.

    Reply
    1. Charles Winter December 29, 2016

      There are many in the white working class who have suffered from globalization. Democrats need an agenda that includes them.

      1. Mama Bear December 30, 2016

        I cannot disagree with that, but it is not in any way shape or form a reason to approve of white supremacy, racism, bigotry, misogyny or xenophobia. It is obvious that politics as usual is no longer alive and well in this country, but allowing white supremacy to be legitimized is absolutely not the answer. We need for the white men in this country (the ones who have always seen themselves as in control whether over their wives or over groups, companies and the nation) to gain control over their egos both individual and collective and start admitting we can learn something from other countries. That would be the beginning of true change.

        1. charleo1 December 30, 2016

          As usual, you put things in a nut shell. And bring to mind another thing I’ve been thinking about, and mulling over. I keep hearing that the Democrats are going to need to include the white working class. And how they need to stop carousing with big city elites. Spending all their time drinking lattes at Starbucks. Talking about how McDonald’s workers need $15.00 an hour, and the kids ought to get free college. And more time talking with, and not down to rural white folk. Who’s economic slats have been knock out from under their small towns due to globalization. And tell these voters what they’re going to do about that.
          And my contention is, Democrats indeed have been talking about, and not only talking about, but working very hard to address just those challenges of just that demographic. But talking about their efforts in honest terms of things that are possible now, and things that will be possible with the help of these rural white voters. And in the process, doing some very hard, very politically risky things, like Obamacare. That will over time, and if left in place, improve the lot of all these people in very significant ways. And would do more, if these people gave them the chance. But they decided to go another way. As in one may lead the horse to water. But one cannot always talk the horse into drinking. Especially if the horse is being lied to, and told there is sweeter water, and more abundant water, on the other side. And the horse never once thinks to ask for any proof. In that scenario I see where the Dems had two options. Remain principled Dems. and keep telling the truth. Or engage in an all out war of lies, demagoguery, and ridiculous pie in the sky promises with the Trump campaign. Which begs the question in my mind. As rank and file Democrats, what would we have preferred our Party do, in order to win?

          1. Mama Bear December 30, 2016

            thank you:) well thought out.

  5. The lucky one December 29, 2016

    Well of course the white race has declined, in intelligence anyway. Look at who we just elected president. It wasn’t the darker skinned citizens who voted him in.

    Reply
    1. charleo1 December 29, 2016

      Good point! Deficiently educated, sufficiently brainwashed, White men are primarily responsible for whatever disasters Trump imposes on the Country and the World.
      I wonder how they will ever hold their heads up again, or live with themselves?

      1. RED December 29, 2016

        I think these sick pukes believe that “white culture” was somehow god ordained and has always been the way it is. Like in 1400 feudal Europe all the white people were drinking Budweiser and wearing Nascar hats. They don’t seem to get that cultures and people have always been influenced by many things including different groups and cultures. But then do I really expect the most ignorant uneducated morons among our nation to know history, or any critical thinking? Of course not, the corporate state needs them to buy beer and tickets and take lower and lower wages, it’s by design. So in fairness, we are all responsible for allowing a society to develop that does this to people, only so much blame can be placed on people who had no opportunities to know a larger world and gain a quality education.

        1. charleo1 December 29, 2016

          Actually, deep down where they live, they DO believe all this crapola about White rule, manifest destiny, and all the rest, as being a God ordained thing. It’s evident every time they open their self entitled yaps about anything. The Blacks. Well. they are all soaking up their hard earned tax dollars, buying their welfare Cadillacs. The Brown ones are taking their job, and destroying their White english speaking culture. And the Liberals are the worst. Because they are all big government pushers so they can one day use all the dependency they are tricking the lazy into voting for, to enslave us all. And so the closeted Commies ends freedom, and liberty forever.

          Now I truly see it as a fair indictment you make, that those who know better, have been neglectful in doing what is their civic duty to at least try and inform these jug heads of their errant thinking. Realizing today’s jug heads that went out, and elected Trump, after having undergone this brutal brainwashing. That this all began for most of them as children raised by their equally brainwashed, and jug headed parents. So more often than not, I’ve found their attitude is, they know what they know, and F. You liberal scum! For trying to tell them any different!

          1. RED December 29, 2016

            Did I mention I’m from Alabama, born and raised? So yeah, I see this everywhere. And it’s incredibly weird and disheartening. My mother tells stories of how she worked with African Americans who had scars from Bull Conner and the fire hoses and yet my mother is now an avid fox news watcher and Bill O’Reily fan and purchaser of his books. My father, a retired Methodist minister once spanked me as a child for using a racially insensitive term and now also watches only fox news and subscribes to their stupidity fully. My own sister, raised in the same house, the same basic educational opportunities as myself and yet she too shares the same outlook. And these are certainly not dumb people at all and they not really hateful in general or necessarily racist in white supremacist definition. They’ve just been so indoctrinated to believe that it’s poor people and poor usually means black in Alabama because poor white people are seen as “salt of the Earth, just good hardworking folk,” that are the cause of all misery in so many ways, laziness, relying on the government, all that garbage. And it pretty goes without saying that they view as being somehow mislead or fooled by crazy liberals and that I took a wrong turn somewhere. I always joke that if I was gay I could tell mother and she would say son I love you no matter what but to tell her I’m liberal or even worse an atheist is unforgivable!

          2. Charles Winter December 29, 2016

            Poor white people in Alabama may be described as “salt of the earth,” but they’ll never be seen as more than “trailer trash.”

            We need a movement in America that advances all poor people, whatever their color.

          3. Charles Winter December 29, 2016

            No, it’s worse than that.

            Lower-class white men have always gotten the most menial jobs. Then they were told that minorities (Afican-Americans, Native Americans, Mexicans, or now Muslims) were out to get their jobs and women.

            This arouses fear among the white working class, and cuts off their most obvious route to improvement–alliance with African Americans and Muslims.

          4. charleo1 December 30, 2016

            I think more how things usually worked, is poorly educated white men were traditionally given the supervisory field positions over minorities like you mention. And it was these minorities who did the most menial work. Neither made a good living. But it was the whites who felt they were a cut above, and said so. It was the boss who reminded the poor white that the African American, or Mexican was paid even less, and would be very happy to have his paycheck. If he thought he could do better up the road….. He couldn’t of course, being as poorly educated as he was. Bereft of nearly all marketable skills, he was what he was. And his boss well knew this.
            It was the Right Wing politicians who told the poor whites of the old confederacy, (mostlyDemocrats) That their Party had sold them out to uppity Negros like MLK, and crawled into bed with them Northern malcontents, do-gooders, and Commie Liberals. And pretty soon, they told them, their kids would be forced to go to school with the Blacks, commingle with them. And the Fed. Gov. in the name of Civil Rights was going to come in and mandate the Black man be given his old job sitting in the truck supervising. And he, being white, because he was white, would be the guy in the ditch with the shovel. That’s if him and those whites like him, didn’t switch parties, and vote the Dems out. And he believed that, and the South has been solid Republican since.

  6. RED December 29, 2016

    I think I may be done with the word “racist.” And not for any of the ignorant b.s. Con reasons. But instead I’m not sure the word “racist” really captures or describes accurately the people we apply it to. It’s really hard to condense it down to one word but here’s a few tries: degenerates, sick pukes, disgusting morons, scum of the Earth, treasonous dirtbags, filth, garbage. Yeah I think these words come a lot closer to describing what we call racists more accurately.

    Reply
  7. Em Parkessen September 8, 2017

    Whites are the world minority. We have every right to stand up for our people, commie

    Reply

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