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Obama Charts A Risky Course On Immigration

Bloomberg View Memo Pad Politics

Obama Charts A Risky Course On Immigration


Nov. 19 (Bloomberg View) — President Barack Obama initially tried to avoid the immigration action that he now seems determined to take. He let the Senate pass its own bill, and quietly waited for months on end for Speaker of the House John Boehner to muster something. When Boehner failed, he rewarded Obama’s patience by explaining that Republicans can’t pass immigration legislation because the president is untrustworthy, and that the president can’t act unilaterally because such action would… prevent the House from passing legislation.

In a sea of bad faith, Obama is now sailing solo. It may take some time for Republicans to chart their own course. A New York Times report today suggests that the Koch brothers — and the political money machine that they supervise — are not eager to see their investment in the Republican majority squandered on a government shutdown over immigration.

The Kochs seem pretty pragmatic. They want the Environmental Protection Agency neutered, support for green energy killed, and carbon emissions running wild and free. But immigration? They don’t seem to object: Illegal immigrants buy carpet and heat their homes, too.

The Republican base, of course, has a problem with immigration. The presence of immigrants who arrived or stayed illegally in the U.S. offends the base’s moral sensibility. In addition, base voters fear the immigrants are taking American jobs, absorbing American tax dollars and turning the nation a dangerous hue. The base wants the invaders repelled. It’s not a generous view. But it’s a coherent one.

Party leaders are at a loss to balance the demands of the base and the Kochs and the Chamber of Commerce and their own electoral ambitions. They can’t say they support deportation, and they can’t say they don’t. They can’t create a path to legalization and, fearing creation of another 11 million brown voters, they don’t want a path to citizenship.

Obama is about to put the Democratic Party on record for amnesty, enabling millions of immigrants to avoid deportation and, most likely, obtain some type of temporary work permits. The legal basis appears to be the executive’s “prosecutorial discretion.” My Bloomberg View colleague Ramesh Ponnuru points out that Democratic claims that previous Republican presidents used this tool do not justify Obama’s action, which would vastly exceed all previous efforts. At the Washington Post, Greg Sargent takes the opposite view, arguing that the action is generally within legal and political norms.

That debate will be thrashed out over the weeks ahead. Either way, there is an element of hypocrisy to the president’s plan — he has claimed before that he lacked the authority for such sweeping action and clearly wanted to avoid taking it. There is an element of political calculation: There are votes and coalitions at stake, and Republicans seem well poised to forfeit them. And there is an element of humane desperation: The absence of legal status thwarts human potential, and Republicans appear unwilling to remove the obstacles (since their base prefers to remove the people).

There is also an element of considerable risk. Yes, any executive action would be temporary. Yes, Congress could pass legislation to supersede it. But this could prove to be a turning point in the partisan polarization of Washington. Having reshaped itself in Newt Gingrich’s image, the Republican Party has proved increasingly willing to undermine democratic norms — and institutions — in hopes of inheriting the rubble.

If Obama is not departing from norms in this case, he certainly looks to be pushing the line. With a functioning Congress, large changes to immigration would rightly be the legislature’s prerogative. Of course, we don’t have a functioning Congress, and we do have millions of people living in limbo. It’s not hard to understand why Obama is doing this, and perhaps party relations in Washington really can’t get much worse. But I think they will.

Photo: President Barack Obama speaks on the midterm elections that saw his party lose the Senate during a press conference in the East Room of the White House on Wednesday, Nov. 5, 2014, in Washington, D.C. (Olivier Douliery/Abaca Press/MCT)

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  1. charleo1 November 19, 2014

    “The Republican Party has proved increasingly willing to undermine democratic norms — and institutions — in hopes of inheriting the rubble.” A functioning Congress could pass legislation that superseded the President’s Executive Action.
    That’s if the United States actually had a Congress capable of function. However,
    our fundraising Congress is attempting to serve all their paymasters. Serving none
    well. Boehner’s in a heck of a bind. Look fellows, just pass this little immigration
    bill. Give the immigrant a torturous, expensive, lengthy, and nearly unnavigable path to citizenship. And we’ll get about giving the Kochs the emasculated EPA they
    want. They’ve paid us over 200 million so far. So I don’t think it’s too much to ask! Our friends the corporations, here and abroad, are expecting the tax breaks, and trade policies they’ve paid for. It’s all part of the deal. Geez you guys know this. We need to get things done here. The XL Pipeline we promised the oil companies for their help in bringing us back to power, are the kind of things we need to be concentrating on. Now, I’m going out there and publicly threaten the President again, to not move a muscle on immigration, or else! But, I think he’s getting ready to call my bluff. And, all you guys want to talk about is shutting down the shop?

    1. highpckts November 20, 2014


  2. Dominick Vila November 20, 2014

    President Obama is doing what he has done so many times before, he is taking a middle of the road approach that reflects the determination of a large segment of our population to deny illegal immigrants a path to citizenship or even permanent residency, while satisfying the desire and dependence of our business community on the labor and buying power of illegal immigrants to profit.
    If what President Obama is going to say today involves the issuance of temporary work permit and relief from deportation, the only criticism that can be made is that his Executive Order does not go as far as President Reagan’s 1986 amnesty, or the immigration law changes made by both George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush, neither in scope nor depth.
    For the GOP who, with the exception of Sen. Marco Rubio’s attempt to provide a viable solution, has either opposed or ignored President Obama’s call for action on this issue, to claim that their inaction is because they don’t trust President Obama, takes a lot of nerve. As a minimum, it is evidence of political cowardice, otherwise it is an example of what they think of the intellectual acumen and moral values of the people they represent.

    1. itsfun November 20, 2014

      Read this today on The Daily Signal by Hans Von Spakovsky. It clearly shows that Reagan and Bush did not do what Obama wants to do. When I was young and wanted to something my friends did my mother would ask me if they jumped off a cliff, would I also? This sounds a lot like your argument. He did it so I can to.

      According to the Associated Press, as well as House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., Reps. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., and Zoe Lofgren,
      D-Calif., President Barack Obama’s plan to provide executive amnesty
      to more than 5 million illegal immigrants is no different than
      unilateral actions that were taken by Presidents Ronald Reagan and
      George H.W. Bush.

      However, this claim plays a bit fast and loose with history and fails
      to explain the significant difference between Obama going against the
      will of Congress, which considered and rejected the Development, Relief,
      and Education for Alien Minors Act on several occasions, including when
      both houses of Congress were controlled by the president’s party, and
      Reagan and Bush, who made administrative corrections designed to carry
      out congressional intent.

      Article 1, Section 8
      of the Constitution gives Congress exclusive authority to “establish a
      uniform Rule of Naturalization ….” And it is the president’s
      constitutional duty, under Article II, Section 3, to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed ….”

      In 1986, Congress passed the Immigration and Reform Control Act,
      which provided a general amnesty to almost 3 million illegal
      immigrants. According to the Associated Press, Reagan acted
      unilaterally when his Immigration and Naturalization
      Service commissioner “announced that minor children of parents granted
      amnesty by [IRCA] would get protection from deportation.” In fact, in
      1987, then-Attorney General Ed Meese issued a memorandum allowing the
      INS to defer deportation where “compelling or humanitarian factors
      existed” for children of illegal immigrants who had been granted amnesty
      and, in essence, given green cards and put on a path towards being
      “naturalized” as citizens. In announcing this policy, Reagan was not
      defying Congress, but rather carrying out the general intent of Congress
      which had just passed a blanket amnesty for millions of illegal

      As the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services website
      itself explains, the children of individuals who become citizens
      through naturalization have a relatively easy process for also becoming
      naturalized citizens to avoid breaking up families. And as Mark
      Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies points out,
      the INS was, as a practical matter, going to “look the other way under
      certain circumstances with regard to minor children both of whose
      parents received amnesty.” This was well within the authority delegated
      to the executive branch and a “legitimate exercise of prosecutorial

      The Bush administration relaxed these technical requirements under a
      “Family Fairness” policy to defer deportation of the spouses and
      children of illegal immigrants who were allowed to stay in this country
      and seek naturalization through the IRCA amnesty. Shortly thereafter,
      Bush worked with Congress to pass the Immigration Act of 1990, which
      made these protections permanent. Significantly, the Bush policy and
      the 1990 act affected only a small number of immigrants–about 180,000 people–in
      comparison to Obama’s past (his 2012 implementation of the Deferred
      Action for Childhood Arrival program) and anticipated unilateral actions
      that will affect millions of immigrants.

      Some supporters of Obama’s unilateral actions on immigration have
      also pointed to other actions by past presidents that allowed immigrants
      such as Afghans and Nicaraguans to stay in the U.S. But those limited
      actions were based on very special circumstances such as the Russian
      invasion of Afghanistan, the Communist-driven civil war in Nicaragua or
      the Chinese massacre of students in Tiananmen Square that led Bush to
      grant deferred departure to threatened Chinese nationals.

      Moreover, our immigration laws contain exceptions permitting
      temporary protected status when an illegal alien’s home country is beset
      with civil strife or recovering from a natural disaster. America’s
      generous asylum policies also give safe haven to aliens who if returned
      to their home countries would face persecution because of race,
      religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or
      political opinion. The special circumstances that prompted Reagan and
      Bush to act compassionately, but also within the legal boundaries set by
      Congress, simply do not exist here. They are a far cry from granting
      what is in effect a general amnesty complete with benefits that legal
      immigrants must wait years to obtain.

      In short, while Reagan and Bush worked closely with Congress to
      implement the comprehensive legislation that Congress had passed (in the
      case of Reagan) or would pass shortly thereafter (in the case of Bush),
      Obama is bypassing Congress entirely. He is unconstitutionally revising
      existing law and, without congressional approval, imposing new ones
      that have been explicitly rejected by Congress time and time again,
      thereby setting himself up as a kingmaker (or king) on immigration

      By doing so, the president is establishing a dangerous precedent that
      violates fundamental principles of separation of powers that serve as a
      bulwark to protect our liberties and that established a government of
      laws and not of men.

      1. Dominick Vila November 20, 2014

        The difference between what happened when President Reagan was in office and what is happening now is that Reagan dealt with Tip O’Neill and a Democratic Congress that did not hesitate to look for middle ground and compromise; and President Obama has been dealing – and continues to deal – with a Congress that considers compromise a dirty word, and that opposes everything the President proposes. Speaker Boehner and Mitch McConnell had plenty of time to work on this issue, they didn’t, and when some of their party members did, they chastised them. The reason the GOP controlled House has not supported immigration law reform is because from a political perspective it is a win/win for them.
        I don’t support amnesty because it encourages more immigrants to enter the country illegally, knowing that sooner or later their status will be legitimized. I do support the work permit approach and reprieve from deportation, an approach eerily reminiscent of what Sen. McCain proposed several years ago.
        I guess we will find out tonight what President Obama’s EO encompasses.
        If what we are hearing from the press is true, it is not amnesty, just a work permit and reprieve from deportation, and its scope is limited to those who are married to U.S. citizens or who have children born in the USA, rather than the estimated illegal immigrants living in the USA. If this is correct, they are not even permanent residents with a green card, and are not eligible for naturalization and the privileges that come with it.

        1. itsfun November 20, 2014

          I think the problem with the immigration bill in the House was an example of tit for tat. With Harry Reid sitting on over 300 House passed bills, the House responded by sitting on the Senate passed bill. We have a lot of people in congress acting like 5 year olds. Just egos getting in the way of things getting done.

          1. highpckts November 20, 2014

            The people are dealing with children throwing a temper tantrum in Congress and we voted them in!!

  3. Eleanore Whitaker November 20, 2014

    How is the course President Obama is “charting” any more risky than that of GOP Presidents Reagan and Bush ’41? It’s only risky because the same lunatic fringe with narrow minds are attempting a corporate style hostile takeover of Congress.

    When men and women of the GOP seek ultimate authority and then play “victim,” this is an overdone strategy Americans are losing patience with.

    How is forcing all Americans into ultra-conservatism not sending this country right back to the days before the Declaration of Independence and old King George?

    Americans better wake up and begin to stand together as our early Americans had to do to be rid of tyrannical rule and domination. It’s a democracy…not a ideological autocracy.

  4. Eleanore Whitaker November 20, 2014

    As an afterthought, there’s a reality American taxpayers are not looking at. No matter what the majority rule demands, the GOP is determined to “rule” according to the dictates of their too obscenely wealthy campaign donors. After all, when you’re a Koch and you spend $20 million for a primary, you expect to get what you pay for…total control of government.

    Now, how is that any different than England of the 1600s?

    1. Ran_dum_Thot November 20, 2014

      It always helps to keep things in prospective. Bloomberg spent $20 million and Thomas Steyer spent $73 million. But that is acceptible to you since these funds went to liberal candidates? Total spending on the elections for 2014 was about $788 million. Surely you don’t really believe a paltry 2.5% ($20 million) spread among numerous candidates had that much influence on the overall election results?

      1. Independent1 November 20, 2014

        Really?? That 20 million was spent defeating one candidate. The Kochs spent north of 300 million dollars on the election.

        1. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

          Koch family spending was around $250 to $290 million across the nation not just one election. Tom Seyers spent $100 miliion in the same arena. Which candidate had $20 million spent against him?

          1. Independent1 November 20, 2014

            A candidate in CA, I believe the seventh district- and it wasn’t all by the Kochs directly but by the combined groups that they fund.

          2. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

            Thanks. It looks like total spending for both candidates was around $20 million, with $13 million+ from several outside groups. That is a long way from Koch family spending $20 million on one candidate as some commenters want to believe.

          3. Independent1 November 20, 2014

            Here’s the charade you tried to play in responding to Eleanore earlier (trying to make it look like the Kochs hadn’t spent BIG BUCKS): “Surely you don’t really believe a paltry 2.5% ($20 million) spread among numerous candidates had that much influence on the overall election results?”

            Conveniently forgetting to mention that the Kochs had spent well over 300 million influencing the 2014 election.

            I knew that 20 million had been spent on the CA07 and even though the Kochs didn’t spend all that 20 Million – it was their spending of over 13 million (they found a way to spend millions that wasn’t considred outside money) which forced the Dems to spend millions themselves rebutting the lies and distortions of the truth spewed by the Republicans using the millions the Kochs poured in.

          4. NoodleDogg #1 November 22, 2014

            There is no charade. I clearly stated, references were provided, that the Koch network spent several hundred million dollars. The point to which I was addressing was the blatant misinformation that the Koch’s spent $20 million on one candidate’s election. As far as I am concerned the amount of spending on the elections from any source for any reason is egregious. Regardless of your personal beliefs the candidates that spend the most money usually win, Democrat, Republican or Other. My opinion, would be to cap total spending allowed per candidate. We know, of course, this idea is headed straight for the toilet.

          5. Independent1 November 22, 2014

            Drastically reducing campaign spending is only headed to the toilet – BECAUSE OF REPUBLICANS. Here in Maine, when the Dems got control back from the GOP a couple years ago, they passed legislation that would have capped campaign spending and established much reduced public funding for candidates to use, only to have America’s worst governor, Lepage – Republican, veto the bill, thereby setting up a situation where the Dems couldn’t muster a 2/3s majority of support to get the billed passed.

            Don’t try to make it look like it’s the Dems who are also blocking Citizens United and other legislation to dramatically reduce the monies that are funding elections. It’s ONLY the GOP that’s keeping that from happening.

            Just like, it’s ONLY the GOP that is refusing to really open discussions to revamp our talks code. It’s the GOP who are the OBSTRUCTIONISTS!!!!

          6. NoodleDogg #1 November 22, 2014

            It’s always nice to have a response, but you may have noticed that I do not cite a given political party as the culprit for our current political ills. It really rather short sighted to look only at the current seated government when trying to justify your rationale for the failure of government.

          7. Independent1 November 22, 2014

            Sorry, but ever since Newt Gingrich turned the GOP into the party of the Devil, the difference between the degree of corruption in the Republican and Democratic parties is like night and day. The Democrats clearly are not angels – but they are not the absolute images of Satan that Republican legislators are.

          8. Fishy Fishy November 22, 2014

            You know, the GOP did not just drop out of the sky in November to work it’s evil. Prior to the recent election, Democrats were in control of the Senate and the Executive branch. So, who dropped the ball? The Democrats have dominated Congress for about 60 of the last 80 years. I would have to fault those suckers for doing a lousy job overall. Why not accept the fact that mismanagement of the government is truly a bipartisan problem? What are you doing to rectify the situation?

          9. Independent1 November 22, 2014

            Sorry but I don’t buy it.

            Yeah! If you’ll remember correctly, until the right-wing biased Supreme Court bastardized the meaning of the Constitution and came out with the totally insane notion that ‘money equals speech’ in the Citizens United debacle – there was really no strong impetus to pass legislation restricting excess money in campaigns. Yes, even before there were some excesses but nothing like since C.U.

            If the founding fathers had even remotely imagined that “money equals speech” they wouldn’t have gone to all the trouble to align Congress as they did to try and balance things out between highly populated and sparsely populated states. They were so concerned about making things “fair”; not letting states with
            large populations necessarily rule the day – that they set the House of Reps up with legislators apportioned by population and Senate with only 2 senators/state so a state like Wyoming has the same voting power as say NY, while Wyoming has one person barely every square mile while NY has far more people every square mile.

            I saw the stats somewhere but forget them – a Wyoming Senator represents maybe a few hundred thousand constituents, while a NY Senator represents 10s of millions.

            So the SCOTUS’ ruling is nothing more than a political power play – designed purely to give the GOP added voting clout. In my mind, the 5 conservative judges ruling boarders on treason- an attempt to wrest control of the country from the people purely through subversion.

            And you’ll notice that the first chance the Dems had after that absolutely awful SCOTUS ruling, they tried to make things right.

          10. Fishy Fishy November 23, 2014

            The point I am trying to get across is that evil government did not start with the Nov. 2014 mid-term elections. To get a true prospective of what caused the ills of our debauched government, one has to consider times past–but more than a few weeks or years ago. We have been rolling down hill for decades. You can keep harping on recent happenings, but the cause of today’s problems is much more deeply rooted.

          11. Eleanore Whitaker November 20, 2014

            Noodle Doggie….Grow up. Koch Industries ONLY spends their money to get what THEY and ONLY they want. Tom Seyers spends his to protect the environment and unlike Charles and David Koch don’t need to promote their businesses that depend nearly entirely on tax exemptions and tax subsidies the rest of us pay for. But who expects you right wing autocratic greedheads to admit your greed, like the Koch’s is behind every decision you make. It’s always ALL ALL ALL about YOU YOU YOU isn’t it?

            True sociopathic narcissism…the pride of the Twerpie Generation

          12. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

            So, let me get this straight: Koch family and industry, with about 70,000 employees world wide exists only for their own personal greed-rape and pillage, that sort of thing. And oh, yeah, you know for a fact that all those employees are poorly paid, if not out right slaves. Steyers, on the other hand, because he spends money on the “environment” can do no wrong, and he can’t possibly be greedy. No doubt all of his profit is donated to the starving masses, while he lives in a modest 1400 sq ft rancher in suburbia. This is a guy who amassed a $1.5 billion from hedge fund management. Wow, that is not an industry that pops to the top of the list for for caring about anything except making money at any cost. Steyer made a lot of his money from coal, I am sure you are aware. It’s time for you to grasp a very basic concept about people: Being a conservative or a liberal is not just a political posture. It is also a way of life. I vote for the person, not a political party, or my next door neighbor or my cousin, but for the person who will best do the job. I don’t give a rat’s behind who he/she knows, what school he went to or if his brother is a snot slinging drunk.

          13. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

            A sociopathic narcissistic twerp. I think I like that. You were styling me after yourself, I bet. I am really flattered but, as usual, you are completely wrong. Work on that vocabulary and be careful about using long strings of modifiers.

          14. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

            I did learn that an old person can be a twerp, so I know you did not misidentify yourself.

      2. Eleanore Whitaker November 20, 2014

        Ran dum Thot…You omit ONE HUGE difference between Bloomberg and Thomas Steyer…The range of inter-related businesses with Koch Industries. From fracking to oil to ownership of several major media interests.

        That’s reeks reeks reeks of an attempts to control government. Bloomberg has consistently remained with the financial sector. Thomas Steyer is a philanthropist, environmentalist and hedge fund manager. He doesn’t own Big Oil interests and also a hundred other non-related businesses.

        In fact, according to US anti-trust laws, Koch Industries comes all too close to being a monopoly due to Koch reliance on mergers, interlocking directorates and their holding companies. All of which fall just under the radar of being a monopoly.

        Sorry, you are wrong and your silly, petty attempt to continue mass corruption with your enabling just doesn’t get it. Your points cannot be taken seriously in light of the damage Koch Industries does to the environment Bloomberg and Thomas Steyer spend their fortunes on to protect.

      3. highpckts November 20, 2014

        Really? And how much did the Koch’s spend? You cited an overall sum of $788 million. By my calculations that means the Kochs spent $695 million to buy the Government give or take a few million!!

        1. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

          Hang in thar. I’m not privy to insider info. Numbers are for non-party spending, and came from opensecrets.org. Clean your readers while you are at it. The $788 million is for all spending on 2014 elections from all non-party sources: Koch, Steyer, superpacs etc.

    2. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

      Ellie, sweetheart: This thread is on immigration, not the Koch family or 17th century England. Focus, dear.

      1. kenndeb November 20, 2014

        She’s very narrowly focused on hating men.

        1. Eleanore Whitaker November 20, 2014

          You’re narrowly focused on your mental illness.

          1. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            We know what you are focused on. Lack of male member. You have an iny instead of an outee.

        2. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

          Problem is that everyone that she doesn’t like becomes man. I thought a gender change was a much more involved process. Maybe we need to tell the transgender faction about Eleanore.


          1. kenndeb November 20, 2014

            Well, according to her, she has done most everything, so maybe she’s also a surgeon. Also she is most likely a counselor , and seeing she has already gone through the process, she can help the apparent large percentage of people who think that sort of lifestyle is alright.

      2. Eleanore Whitaker November 20, 2014

        Noodle Doggie…A. Don’t tell me what I can or can’t post. B. You’re just another bossy little Twerp desperate to prove you are superior. The reality is that needle minds like yours have no ability to use the errors of men of the past to avert the disasters greedy, covetous morons today want us to ignore. Sorry…not going to happen.

        1. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

          You may, of course, post what ever you want, where ever you want. Generally, a discussion/chat/thread is a tad more meaningful if one sticks to the topic. Sidebars, rants and rudeness only remind me and many, many other’s why these comment venues can’t be taken seriously. Get back to trolling, babe, I don’t want to distract you.

        2. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

          That’s the problem, you don’t have a post. All you have is a post hole.

  5. atc333 November 20, 2014

    So, the GOP simply has no plan, no solutions, no aswers to the Immigattion issue, It has had years to come up with one of their own, and Boehner refuses to allow the House to vote on the legislaition the Senate passed months and months ago.

    Therefore, the GOP position has become simply one which is “We don’t know what to do,how to do it, or if to do it, much less how to govern, but regardless, we will not allow you to it, or to govern either, even though once we pass legislation,on immigration, which becomes the law of the land, it will superceed what you as President may do as a temporary measure. Instead, should you act, because we won’t,because we are too fragmented, we can agree that we will shut down the government, because we are the GOP, and we can.,

    This, Voters and non Voters of America, is what you have put into office, or else allowed to be put into office by not voting,.

    1. Dominick Vila November 20, 2014

      They know what to do, they are just too scared to confront their flock and risk losing their jobs. The rhetoric and threats we hear from them is nothing more than a cynical tactic to blame Democrats for something their constituents oppose, score political points, energy their troops, and avoid making the tough decisions that separates a leader from political opportunists.

  6. FT66 November 20, 2014

    I have been waiting for a long time for this high-profile and contentious issue to happen. It is a matter of counting hours and everyone of us is anxious and ready to hear the real news about immigrants. Both sides (parties) must celebrate at least something is done. Those who don’t accept it, am sorry they will be forced to swallow the bitter pill. I can’t imagine what situation Jeb Bush and Romney are in now, if at all they have plans to run for Presidency. What will they tell the Latino bloc if their Party continue to show they are not willing to accept them. Not only these two candidates, this applies also to any GOP to-be contender. Unless and until GOP comes with a concrete plan more than the President is about to announce, am sorry the whole bloc of Latino voters, will be taken away and NO return.

    1. highpckts November 20, 2014

      And Jeb Bush’s wife is Latino!!

      1. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

        You mean a taco bell.

  7. Ran_dum_Thot November 20, 2014

    Citizenship and non citizens LEGALLY allowed to live in the U.S. (lawful permanent residents) are well defined by law. Those illegally in the U.S. for any reason, i.e. trespassers, are not entitled to the privileges of these 2 groups nor are they to be given citizenship because their native homeland is a crummy place to live. Is there any reason why the immigration debate ignores the lawful permanent resident, many who want citizenship and can’t get it? Obviously, the “illegal” issue makes better news. What is legal, good for the country and following the U.S.Constitution does not.

    1. Independent1 November 20, 2014

      So in other words, it’s your opinion that illegal immigrants are useless, is that the case??

      Well, the CBO doesn’t seem to think so. They estimate that 8 million jobs in the U.S. are dependent solely on the presence and spending of illegal immigrants. So deporting those 11 million immigrants could well cost 8 million Americans their jobs.

      And with respect to the costs to America of supporting the illegals, basically the CBO says this:

      -State and local governments incur costs for providing services to unauthorized immigrants and have limited options for avoiding or minimizing those costs;

      -The amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions;

      -The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants, although the impact is most likely modest; and

      -Federal aid programs offer resources to state and local governments that provide services to unauthorized immigrants, but those funds do not fully cover the costs incurred by those governments.

      Note that basically the CBO is assessing that the costs to support illegals is in some cases very minor and in others, just a moderate increase. Supporting them is not a tremendous added expense.

      And not only do over 50% of illegals pay income taxes, billions of dollars, the CBO estimates they pay in 7 billion each year to Social Security and they even contribute to Medicare; both programs that they can not benefit from but which they help extend the life of. And for 2013, Texas estimated its economy was boosted by over 18 billion dollars just by illegals.

      And one thing that all this doesn’t point out, is that without the illegals being willing to work for far less pay than people born in Americ would be willing to pay, it’s quite likely that the food costs of every American could easily rise by 30-50% percent.

      Remember, increasing the costs to farmers across the country related to producing the food we all eat, IS NOT the same as raising the wages of min. wage workers in places like Walmart, McDonald’s, Target and other major retailers. Farmers DO NOT have thousands of customers coming in each day to buy their tomatoes, corn or whatever, among which they could distribute the increased labor costs of paying another maybe $5-$10/hr they would have to pay to attract Americans to work in their fields – these costs would have to be passed along to ALL OF US!!

      So how do you suppose all you anti immigration fools will like to maybe pay food bills that are 30-50% higher than they currently are if all these supposedly horrible illegal immigrants are run out of the country.

      Have any of you clueless idiots thought about that???

      1. highpckts November 20, 2014

        Well done! For the anti-immigrant idiots, they don”t go any farther than Fox news and Limbaugh! They don’t want facts, they just want to rant for whatever reason!! Facts don’t play into their thinking anywhere!

        1. kenndeb November 20, 2014

          Lies are all that liberals believe to be true.

          1. highpckts November 21, 2014

            You just keep telling yourself that! It might make your crazy less crazy!

      2. Ran_dum_Thot November 22, 2014

        Actually, the farmer gets about 16 to 30% of each dollar spent for a food item. So raising wages of field hands $5-$10 will not increase food prices 30-50%. Illegals work for less pay by U.S. standards, but not compared to what they would earn back home. That is why they are here. Back home pay is more like zero. U.S.citizens working in the fields? Not when there are umpteen entitlement programs that pay them to not work. Finally, the issue about illegals is that they are illegally in the country, thereby breaking the law. You the consumer, the government, and employers at all levels turn a blind eye to this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a guest worker program. It’s a great idea in fact. It means foreigners are here on a temporary basis, with documentation, to work. End of story. But it is not a pathway to citizenship. There are already established laws about how to become a citizen for those that wish to pursue citizenship.

      3. Ran_dum_Thot November 22, 2014

        There seems to be a tendency to lump all illegal foreigners living in the U.S. as diligent laborers slaving away at some menial poor paying job. Not really. Many are here to make a living, but not by picking crops. Think illegal drug operations, living off government handouts/welfare/entitlements, crime, etc. If someone is not a citizen, he is not entitled to participate or receive that which are privileges of citizenship. No free education, discounted college tuition, welfare, free medical care. Sorry. I could say the same about a lot of U.S. citizens milking the system with the phony “disability” claims, or welfare families that can’t seem to stop having kids. I do I have to pay to rehab a habitual drug addict? I’d rather see the money spent on decent meals for kids that actually go to school or provided eye and dental care to the poor. When is the last time anyone had someone knock on the door asking for work?

        1. Independent1 November 22, 2014

          Yeah! There are illegals that are committing crimes. Like in all groups, not everyone is honest. And that’s exactly what the Obama Administration has been concentrating on – rounding up and deporting those illegals who commit crimes. And because they’ve focused on that effort, the Obama Administration has deported more troublesome illegals that have been committing crimes and costing America money over the past 5-6 years than all previous presidents combined.

          But another fact is true also – illegal immigrants as a group, commit far fewer crimes than people born right here in America. And why would that be? Because most illegals are here to make money that they can send back home to their families from wherever they came from; AND illegals aren’t stupid: they know that if they get involved in crime, or even take advantage of some things they could do legally, their undocumented status may well become known and they may well be deported.

          So not only do many illegals not even use a lot of what documented Americans take for granted, they actually commit far less crimes. Studies have shown that in cities where there are known to be a lot of illegals living, crime rates are lower than in other similar cities where few illegals live.

          And in California, which has the highest concentration of Hispanics (35% of its population), both documented and undocumented immigrants; only 17% of California prison system inmates are Hispanic. Showing that Hispanics in general, commit far less crimes that people born right here in America.

      4. Ran_dum_Thot November 22, 2014

        You must be related to Eleanore W. Both of you are rude, insulting and misquote the truth.

    2. Independent1 November 20, 2014

      And one thing I forgot to point out in my previous post: I know a lot of you anti immigrant fanatics have the notion that illegals and other immigrants are just rampantly lawless. Well nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is, that illegal immigrants actually commit FAR LESS crimes than people born right here in America. The fact that it appears that they commit more is because when an illegal does commit a crime, there are tons of fanatics such as yourself who are right there to make a big deal of it – totally ignoring the fact that American born criminals are running around committing even more.

      And why might that be? Because most illegals realize there tenuous presence in America and know that if they’re caught doing something illegal, or trying to use even facilities they can legally too much, that their illegal status will become known and they will be deported. Cutting off their ability to make money and very often, prevent them from sending some of that money back home, which is why they came here in the first place. In California which has BY FAR the highest concentrations of Hispanics in America, both legal and illegal: 35% of the CA population is Hispanic while only 17% of the CA prison population is Hispanic.

  8. kenndeb November 20, 2014

    Secure our borders first, remove all that have already broken our laws, then talk about immigration reform. This is an illegal action by an illegal tyrant for illegal invaders. ENFORCE LAWS WE ALREADY HAVE.

    1. Independent1 November 20, 2014

      Hogwash!! The borders are far more secure than they’ve ever been. In fact, the net influx and outflow of illegals today is almost neutral. Even suggesting that our borders could be completely sealed is pure lunacy – it’s an impossibility and idiots like you know it. Preventing all illegals from entering America IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

      And it’s not just that, but the fencing that has already been built is creating enormous environmental damage both to the land itself and to the wild life and even humans who live along the border. It has already pushed a number of wildlife species to the point of extinction by blocking their normal grazy/feeding ranges; and has even resulted in numerous deaths via flooding and keeping some people’s from reaching places where they normally foraged for food.

      And see my post below about the costs associated with removing all that have already broken the law. Are you really willing to see up to 8 million people lose their jobs who are working only because of the economic stimulus that 11 million illegals are providing to the economy; and maybe pay 30-50% more for food per month because of the dramatic increase in costs farmers across the nation would have to pass along to all of us if they suddenly lost all the cheap illegal immigrant labor and had to pay $5-$10 dollars/hour or more to attract Americans to do the back breaking field labor that illegals now do on the cheap?????

      1. kenndeb November 20, 2014

        As usual, you have no clue of what you are saying, only the regimes propaganda.

    2. 788eddie November 20, 2014

      It’s only legal when George H.W. Bush or St. Ronnie does it, right?

      1. hicusdicus November 20, 2014


      2. kenndeb November 20, 2014

        Bush was a jerk, and made it possible for the Emperor to do what he has. Reagan followed our laws. The Emperor thinks he is divinely mandated to do as he wants.

    3. springerj November 20, 2014

      The easiest way to illegally enter the U.S. from Mexico is buy an airplane ticket to any city in the U.S. You need a passport and are given a tourist visa. Then just overstay the visa. That is WAY easier than trying to cross the Rio Grande, and probably cheaper too.

      How does one secure THAT kind of border?

      1. kenndeb November 20, 2014

        Those that can afford a plane ticket are not the ones crossing on foot. It has been a couple of decades now, but when I lived in Mexico, poor and lower middle class people there were not able to get a passport easily. Only the more prominent were allowed to travel outside the country. I’m all for immigrants, as long as they go through the procedures, as all those that have come before had to do. Why should those already breaking our laws be rewarded by moving to the front of the line? How is that fair to those that have followed our laws and have been waiting?

        1. springerj November 23, 2014

          If they can pay a coyote $2000, they could sure buy a plane ticket for $500.

          You may have something with the passports, though. It’s pretty easy to get one in the U.S. @ about $100 with few questions asked other than a birth certificate and picture ID. What’s the process like in Mexico?

  9. CPAinNewYork November 20, 2014

    Those who want to change our immigration laws really want to weaken them, to absorb the human detritus that forms the populations of the various Latin American countries.

    The United States, as a recent History Channel series explained, was built by white men, not by anyone else. Unfortunately, the descendants of those white men do not seem to have the sense to continue the traditions of their forebears. They are apologetic for their forebears’ success and want to please the human crap that is invading our country.

    I don’t understand that thinking. I guess that’s one reason that I’m turned off by liberals and their minority constituencies. I would deal with the illegal immigrants’ invasion with guns, deportation and for repeat offenders, permanent incarceration with forced hard labor. The last point would form the human resources for solving our crumbling infrastructure problem.

    1. 788eddie November 20, 2014

      Hey CPAinNewYork, are you sure that you’re not KKKinNewYork?

      1. CPAinNewYork November 20, 2014

        Yeah, liberal traitor, I’m sure that I’m not the Klan. Are you sure that you’re not the last vestige of the Communist Party in the world?

      2. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

        Kind, Kinder and kindest.

    2. Rippie November 20, 2014

      Wow. Did you ask for extra starch in hood when you sent it and your tunic out to the Chinese laundry for clean, press and box?

      You do realize that alongside those English pale gents were dirty disgusting Irish, German, Chinese and Japanese workers, slaves from various countries and Latinos who already lived out West or came North for the opportunity to build a new nation, don’t you?

      Do you honestly believe that every spike of the railroads was driven in by lily-white hands? That every piece of rail was forged by lily-white hands? Are you fkkn crazy? The more places I see you, the more I am inclined to think that you are as big a bigot as I think you are, stupidly trying to bring the US back to a pre-industrial era of White Men owning everyone and everything, in control and forcing others to live as they (you) tell them.

      As far as your last suggested item, I recall that quite a while ago on another forum I suggested that the Unions be busted and all welfare be converted to workfare, including for single mothers, unless they could prove they were disabled, in which case they should be tossed off welfare and handed off to the Feds.

      This would effectively push people into a real workplace experience or motivate them to forget about welfare altogether.

      You were pretty unkeen on the idea, to be mild.

      Every president tries to do something like that, but without the Unions being busted, the pushback is enormous, and such an action could only be taken by a second term president.

      As far as “permanent incarceration and forced hard labor,” border jumping is not on the same level as murder or rape, which I believe should be punished harshly in that manner, but not sneaking over the border.

      There are ways to offer a tough track ot citizenship without outright cruelty, which I recall is a cornerstone of many of your posts and ideas.

      I am pretty sure that I also told you some time ago I wouldn’t let you count and manage my pocket money.

      I’m convinced that’s a wise precaution. You are a dangerous, screwed up person.

      1. CPAinNewYork November 20, 2014

        Dear Rippie:

        It’s true that the physical work on the railroads, canals, and other construction projects was done by men of many races and nationalities, but the conceptualizing, the organizing, the financing, the “brain work'” was done by nineteenth century white men.

        You should really see “The Men Who Built America,” the History Channel series that will give you a clear perspective on how we got to be the nation that we are. Don’t misunderstand me. These men were not “nice people.” In many cases they were very unpleasant bastards. But, they did “build America.”

        It’s a personal choice of each of us to balance the benefits of what those men accomplished against the social costs of how they accomplished what they did. We are still faced with that dilemma: “Was it worth it?”

        1. Rippie November 20, 2014

          Unpleasant bastards is putting it mildly. These were, some of them, predatory and sadistic tasklords, all about the money, not a damn thing else. The missions were secondary… VERY secondary, and you know that.

          You also underestimate the input of the nonwhite workers who had educations from their home lands or such deep experience with the project at hand that without their expertise, things would not have been completed.

          Admiring the already emplaced powerful for doing what the powerful do, even if you were to use the eyes of the times, is disingenuous and you are looking solely at the results without examining the means.

          They do not deserve the admiration and outright bias for them that you exhibited. The ethnicity of the people in charge was a matter of aggression, firepower and ruthless lack of compassion.

          Not traits that normal people want to worship or imitate in a proper society, especially now.

          Such utterly deplorable predation now would land a “fine white man” in prison for a very long time.

          And should do.

          1. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            I take you are a non white. You are aimlessly blathering again. Go burn a bowl and come to your senses. I bet your eyes a very very brown.

          2. Rippie November 20, 2014

            Wrong. And I don’t do drugs. You can spark up a bowl, but that’s not my thing at all.

          3. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            You should try it. It helps moron tolerance. I don’t smoke or drink alcohol. I am not old enough yet. Just a teenager. You did not deny your eyes are very very brown. You should go sit in the vent fan room and they will turn blue. If you were not so arrogant you would be tolerable. I am a libertarian with an AR 15. Everybody hates me.

          4. Rippie November 20, 2014

            Already been there, done that. Drugs are for suckers. Dope only puts off having to deal with reality. Don’t bother with getting high. It’s literally pointless except under very specific circumstances.

            I said “wrong.” Does that have a meaning to you that is not normal?

            And I sense that your nose is getting extremely browned up as you suck in sick propaganda and program yourself to be a hater.

            And what could be better than a hater with guns?

            You need to expose yourself to something other than hate sites and nutcase preachers. True libertarians espouse the generosity and compassion of the individuals in the responsible platonic anarchic utopia. Such a Republic comes to the aid of others.

            But they also espouse the absolute capitalist darwinism of Ayn Rand.

            Clearly, both cannot be true, yet that’s what I hear.

            BTW, I’m a good shot, favor a short barrel AR with .22Magnums (far less expensive), open carry but licensing and registration for every weapon and a near complete handgun ban (just too dangerous).

            I am also a rabid 1st Am defender and defender of equality and equity under the law in every way, including due process.

            If you have problems with POCs, then you are not a Constitutional adherent at all.

            And if you’re a libertarian (which I doubt), then your attitude SHOULD be that you don’t care as long as what others do does not affect you directly. Unlike Republicans, you should have no interest in dictating to others how to live.

            Most libertarians do try to tell people how to live, and so, are full of crap.

            I suspect you are, too, and have a lot of cooking left to do before you’re fully baked… and I’m not talking about sparking up a bowl.

          5. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            Now you sound like an internet soccer mom. Where does all this hater crap come from? Is that the new buzz word. Have you been introduced to the Judge or the governor ? You would hate them. A sawed off shot gun that fits in your pocket and it is legal. I thought for a while you might have something going for you but you have yielded to being just another pompous, arrogant internet warrior. All mouth no substance. I don’t usually stoop to calling people idiots. After your diatribe on drugs that’s what you are. You are a person that knows how to string words together but that is about it. You are getting tiresome and a bit boring. I believe you can do better. Second guessing people is not your strong point. Go out into the world and get some real experience and try and not get killed while you are at it. Maybe I am not your definition of a libertarian but I definitely am a skeptic. Jesus never existed there are no UFO’s, ghosts or Bermuda triangle and what ever you think matters only to you. I am sure you get an erection reading your own posts That’s called sexual frustration. Try a girl they are more fun. If you are still in the closet stay there you are better off. I am going to watch a movie while you solve the worlds problems. Sleep tight sparky.

          6. Rippie November 21, 2014


            Drugs make people stupid except in very specific situations, and even then may not pan out well. For you, probably a bad idea until to you have some epiphanies and adjust your tude.

            A sawed off shotgun is generally instant long jail time in nearly any country on earth.

            You think I talk without experience. I assure you that’s not the case. I just happen to be more discreet and smarter than you are online.

            I am a survivor. I’ve done fine in bad situations. All sorts of them.

            Not sure why you’re suddenly onto UFOs and all that junk, but just so you know, UFO doesn’t mean “alien craft from another world.” Also, there is enough corroborating evidence of a person named Jesus that it’s reasonable to accept that He existed. As far as the Son of God/Son of Man stuff, well, that’s the stuff of faerie tales.

            I also have great mastery over my sexuality. The ladies like it and it keeps it from being a distraction inappropriately. There’s a reason Buddhism is called a “practice” and not a religion.

            If you’re a skeptic, then you should be quick to deconstruct the entire concept of the anarchic Utopia. Even Plato eventually realized it can’t work.

            Great idea, impossible application.

            The first realization is that you need police. Then it all falls apart from there.

            Ciao. You have a long way to go until you’re dry behind the ears. You think you know everything now. You know nearly nothing, as you’ll eventually discover.

          7. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            Call it what ever you want. Its just another crutch to keep the real world at bay. Who dreamed up that fat tub? Religious people have never ceased to amaze me. Their whole life revolves around something that does not exist. The human element seems bound by superstition and fear of death. I get slack jawed every time some thumper tells me he is going to live forever through , you know who.

          8. Rippie November 21, 2014

            People are intellectually lazy, for the most part. Churches offering up religion are attractive because someone else has answered the questions, solved the problems and laid out a path. Sure, it’s all a collection of faerie-tales and fables sprinkled with some common-sense advice like “don’t kill each other, m’kay?”

            But you miss the point of religion: it’s about control, wealth and power. Spend some time thinking about how Catholicism keeps moving its greatest recruiting efforts into the poorest and most ignorant, or, should I say, undereducated areas and people.

            Even just a little bit from MANY MANY people can build wealth and a power base, and it SURE HAS. And as those poor dummies gain their own power and wealth, they hand over some of it dutiously every week and year.

            And so the HRC literally became above the Law and obscenely wealthy.

            Every religion has offered up the answers in some way or another to who, why, what, and for how long that we all ask. Well, except for Buddhism which is predicated upon getting off your own butt and figuring it out.

            We have no Creator God or Myth. It doesn’t matter. We’re already here and can’t change the past, so we work on the here and now and what is to come. And the goal is the opposite of eternal life, it’s eternal and utter stillness, silence, nothingness. It’s the ultimate letting go.

            And drugs won’t bring you there.

            I find that religions make it easy for lazy or unfortunate people to blame “god” or whomever, but never themselves, and then settle for where they are in a heap of victimization. While this may be true in SOME instances where there is little to no hope, it is not in most.

            Those people try to make it into the US. We have been turning them back in greater numbers than ever over the last 6 years and as the President said last night, in the last two years, there have been FAR fewer successful crossings (an obvious reference to the US/MX border) than since the 70s, when I was alive and alert to the problem and you were not.

            I don’t think you’re old enough to understand how interconnected things are on very big scales. Some “simple” problems are not simple at all, only the thinking behind the simple solutions.

            Death is what it is. I agree that humans seem (as do a couple other species) to dwell upon death at length. This is destructive and wasteful, and ain’t nobody beat it yet. Even Jesus died, though I find it funny that Christians spend SO much effort arguing against reincarnation when their entire faith is predicated upon accepting it blindly. Amazing.

            Most of my time dealing with death is counseling others how to become comfortable with this transient and nearly instantaneous blip in the big picture.

            And yet, watching prey animals fight until literally the last instant, while they are being eaten and disemboweled, to stay alive… just for one more second… says a lot about what life is and why turning our backs on others, even cheaters, is not always the right course.

            There are certain aspects of morality that are absolute, but there are some that are relativistic, and sometimes, one more fights to be both at the same time.

            And we’re JUST smart enough as a species to MAYBE be able to figure it out, a person at a time.

            I was asked about 15 years ago by a *student* if I felt badly for people who were born Jewish or Christian or Muslim or whatnot. And in some ways, I suppose I do, but in the end, I answered, “No. They’re all Buddhists. They just don’t know it yet.”

            Every first step is better than none in order to learn to discipline one’s mind, and if an aware person can take from a religious system what is of value and discard the dangerous or silly stuff, they can emerge a better person. Eventually.

          9. CPAinNewYork November 21, 2014


            I didn’t say that I admired them. I said that they built America.

            As far as contemporary white men going to jail if they did what the nineteenth century oligarchs did: You’re wrong. Not one of the banking and stockbrokerage bastards that caused the 2008 meltdown has been criminally prosecuted.

            Ironically, super liberal (for civil rights) Eric Holder refused to prosecute them, using the lame excuse that he could not get a conviction. His real reason is that he came from a Wall Street law firm and is going back there. He’s smart enough to not foul his own nest.

            The principal input of the nonwhite workers was their muscle and sweat. Neither brings riches.

          10. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Sure they bring riches, in the trickle-up “distribution” model of idiot rightwing conservatives.

            Many trials are never started, even charges filed, because of the inability to get a conviction. At the cost of the Law today, prosecution is not a matter of throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks. Any graduating lawyer knows this already.

            At the level of dealing with the “too big to fail” operations (I HATE that expression, as it creates an elite class of businesses that are above the Law, as in your statement), spending hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to achieve nothing would be stupid and wasteful.

            And let’s face it, on the national arena, EVERY PLAYER is tainted by big business, big banking, or other very large players who were clients, if nothing else. Even Goody-goody Lizzie is. I haven’t trusted her since she was just a Harvard prof. Her jet-ride to Sr. Sen. from MA? Scares me a LOT.

            Holder will disappear into a backroom if he’s smart, btw.

            But blood and sweat DID build ALL the wealth of the nation in the 18th and 19th C. It’s just that the wealth flowed into very few hands.

        2. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

          How did Christianity start? With some guy getting butchered. Was it worth it?

          1. Rippie November 20, 2014

            Oh man, you must be a kid. That was unnecessary and off the beam for this discussion. Big FAIL, kid.

          2. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            I don’t think you would be any fun on a date. I bet you wear a monocle and a bow tie. Did I offend your religious persuasion? Sorry I did not know you were superstitious.

          3. Rippie November 20, 2014

            You’re gay? I didn’t see that coming, but as I am not, I still don’t care if you are. I don’t roll that way, but I don’t begrudge you doing it if you keep it well behaved in public and private otherwise, as anyone should keep their sexy bidniss. No, I wear designer French, Japanese and German eyeglasses, big bucks and really nice. I hate ties, but when I had to wear them to woo a million buck deal, I had beautiful ties that got many compliments. If you have to wear them, they may as well be spectacular or ironic.

            My religious persuasion? I’m a Buddhist, so no religion. I’m an atheist as a result, or “heathen” to you… and both happily and productively so, thanks.

            And I’m not superstitious: I just have decades of experience, especially online, that you don’t. I’ve been online since the early 70s on Arpanet.

            You could learn a thing or twenty from me, kid.

          4. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            The only thing I have learned from you is that if I want to keep the BS out of my boots I need to stay off line. Okay! Teach me something useful, something real. Not some fantasy you picked up reading some other twits fantasy. Online experience, now that is really something to crow about. My online experience comes from getting bored and feeling a overwhelming desire to piss somebody off.

          5. Rippie November 21, 2014

            There are many things I could teach you, and some come from having done a lot of different drugs back in the day. I’m over that stuff, barely drink and barely use tobacco. It’s all just gotten boring. I can do so much more on my own.

            I’ve noticed that you are here to be a tool, not to achieve anything valuable, but you’re also not quite as stupid as most people your age. At least you have some clue what’s happening, on the surface.

            Maybe if you spend your time online learning about things, even things you don’t intend to do or follow, you’d be able to expand your very tiny perspective.

            And as obnoxious as you are, I was more so and MUCH more precocious at your age. Compared to most of my peers, yep, I knew it “all.”

            But taken in the passage of time and having decades of learning and experience and observation and actual “doing” added to that, I didn’t know much of anything. I had the very tiny core beginnings of an understanding of some things.

            The web is what you make of it. You can spend all your time wanking to pictures of girls or messaging your nads back and forth like most kids, or you can expand your mind and knowledge and read up about EVERYTHING.

            And FFS, take the time to study comparative religion. Even if you never follow one, you need to actually UNDERSTAND them, and religious history, if you are going to stand a chance at grasping how the world is the messed up place it is today. Much of what’s going on now goes back to before mono-theism.

            I assume you speak Spanish. While you’re young, learn a few more… at the same time. It’s actually easier. Make sure one is a Chinese language, even if you will only barely be able to read.

            MASTER MATH AT LEAST THROUGH PLANAR GEOMETRY if not through to Solid Geometry. Those are real-world skills that help you visualize real things.

            Learn to meditate so you can ditch the dope. NEVER meditate high.

            Become aware of your place in the world: stop eating meat and dairy if you still do. Quit milk anyway: It’s TERRIBLE and unhealthful for anyone past 2 yrs.

            Anyway, that’s just some random stuff I know a LOT about distilled down to a sentence each, or so.

            Read to learn, not to find people to jab and provoke just for fun. I’m retired, so I can take the time to explain things when someone is being open to something other than their programming.

            You should focus on yourself for now and build your knowledge base. It’s much more tiny than you think it is.

            You could have worse role models than myself, not that I’m offering.

            Oh, and from your other comment: Don’t do that with the giant Hotei Buddha statues at restaurants. Some Buddhists consider it very disrespectful.

          6. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            You sure like to talk and talk and talk. Do you save your posts so you can go back and read them when you are feeling blue. When it comes to role models I would prefer a dinner roll with butter and honey. Before I take you on as a role model I would like to know how long you have been wandering around on this planet. Humans and their superstitious myths I have no respect for. I did spend a year in a benedictine monastery and that was enough for me. I don’t really care what people believe as long as they don’t involve me. I have to go to the post office. See you later.

          7. Rippie November 21, 2014

            I am a fast typist. I can spell, too. I’m sure my posts are online forever. They’re for others to read, not for me. I’m consistent so I don’t need to remind myself of what I have written.

            I’m nearly 60. Humans are just lucky apes, a little twist of genetic fate that gives us some edges… at the cost of some others.

            Myths are fascinating and explain much of how people function as individuals and as groups and societies.

            I’m not talking about entering monastery. I’ve already refused to take monk’s vows a couple times. It is not of interest to me.

            I DO care what other people believe because even if they don’t rope me in, and they won’t, it affects everyone in many ways. It is that intense spiderwebbing of everything that you’re missing yet. It comes with ripening. You’re not ripe. Ciao.

      2. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

        It sounds like you could use a tub full of white shoe polish. You will never qualify as a conservative so give it up.

        1. Rippie November 20, 2014

          I don’t wear white shoes, kid. And I’m not trying to qualify as anything but a proper, compassionate human being who is a realist. You, apparently are none of those things.

          1. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            I was not referring to shoes. You sometimes sound like an Obama lookalike . I am compassionate about anything that is non human . So see, you are correct for once. When I turn 18 I might change my mind.

          2. Rippie November 20, 2014

            I’m a true Independent. I’m also a Buddhist. Compassion is for all creatures, human and animal, or you have not figured it out at all. I’m extremely conservative on some issues and very progressive on others. I think for myself and that is what makes me a dangerous voter and voice. You, on the other hand, are undergoing programming to become another liberdroid, and that’s a shame. Open your eyes and look around at ever without the hater faux-Chrischin voice nagging you.

            I actually support Rand… for now. And that’s because of much of what he is as a person, but despite some of his stated policy ideas, many of which are likely to please the preposterous Teabaggers.

            The Right is abandoning him because he’s starting to reveal himself as more moderate than the TPers had all hoped, but the left still doesn’t trust anyone named “Paul.” After all, his daddy is Dr Death.

            But Rand is not the same at all.

            Compassion has many faces and forms of expression. It starts with the realization that suffering is the one thing we all share, every person, every creature. Once you’ve done that, you can move forward.

            Compassion is for all living creatures. Even people.

          3. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            In my books you are nothing more than a moving target.

          4. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Good luck with that.

  10. peteserb November 20, 2014

    It’s amazing that after the last election, The Memo still tacks left and tries to portray it as the will of the people and necessary for our republic. What a farce!

    1. gococksri November 20, 2014

      Actually, 58% of the American public supports immigration reform that goes even further than the president will go tonight. A majority does not support the president going it alone, however. Which makes this not an issue of policy but of process.

      Given that there is zero hope that the GOP House will engage in any positive process, the president is, therefore, going it alone. Which means, again, that he is taking an unpopular course to institute what is a very popular policy.

      You might want to read the substance of the remarks your brethren are making on this board—start with he guy below who references people from Latin America as “human detritus.” You seem like a thinking person. Does that not bother you?

      1. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

        How about illegal immigration reform, Like go back to where you came from and work on rebuilding your own country and quit sponging off ours.

        1. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

          How about illegal immigration wouldn’t be as illegals if Gingrich had taken care of it during the Clinton Administration. Or Reagan GOP asshats had tended to their duty to reform it. Or Bush ’41 had actually done more than given it the back of his hand…You love to make excuses for the GOP don’t you?

          1. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            How about what? Political comment has as much creditability as a fart in a windstorm. Do you do anything useful during the day or do you spend all day irritating your keyboard? Key boards and wide butts go hand in hand.

          2. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

            Since you live in DogPatch where wakey wakey is 12 noon and I don’t, before your first noon fart, I’m done with a half a day’s work. I’m a writer moron. That means I’m home all day. It means I earn a living writing SEO copy for businesses, blogs and white papers online for people half way around the globe..boy are you stupid!

          3. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            So you are as you have stated a ” writer moron” That’s the first credibale thing you have said. You better hope your boss never reads your gibberish or you will be unemployed. Are you home all day because your not allowed to go anywhere with a helmut or training wheels?

  11. James Bowen November 20, 2014

    Please call your Representatives and tell them to stop this. With tens of millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans, we should not be giving illegal aliens permission to keep the jobs they have stolen. Your representatives can be reached at 800-971-7441, followed by entering your zip code.

    1. 788eddie November 20, 2014

      I think that Americans have not been employed for decades doing the kinds of jobs that the majority of immigrants have been doing.

      James Bowen, are you still looking for that job mowing lawns of cleaning rooms at the local motel?

      1. James Bowen November 20, 2014

        If that’s what I had to do to make a living, I would do it. And you are wrong, Americans still form the majority of workers in most of these occupations. Their wages have been depressed and they have been crowded out of jobs by illegal aliens. It is long past time for this to stop. The illegals have no right to be here or work here, and they must go home.

        1. Rippie November 20, 2014

          No, you wouldn’t. Americans are too entitled. You might take the lawn monkey job as a HS or College kid, and you might scrub toilets at that age or a bit more, but you’d be looking to move on fast upon graduation.

          Are you willing to do backbreaking field work for 60 hrs a week, driving around from farm to farm, state to state? Not many Americans are any more.

          And many of the Americans that do those jobs are immigrants themselves of various origins.

          And if you are an employer (that’s a joke), then you pay for the best output. Low end American workers are lazy, nasty, dirty and disrespectful low-output lumps on logs, most of the time.

          These immigrants, illegal and legal, work their butts off, if not for themselves, for their kids. They are willing to do what you and other “too good” Americans won’t do.

          Do you realize that in many mid-sized businesses with say 50-100 employees, that if there isn’t a janitorial service coming in, it’s often the owner or GM who closes up, vacuums and cleans the toilets?

          Americans workers are too dainty to do anything for anyone else and certainly nothing that even seems subservient in any way whatsoever.

          And, yeah, I’ve been that boss who is there first, leaves last and cleans up the worst jobs behind the people making me money.

          Would you go do that for $9/hr? Shine people’s crap off toilets and floors?

          You wouldn’t do it for $15/hr and you know it.

          1. James Bowen November 20, 2014

            You wanna bet? I have never in my adult life felt I was too good to do a certain job. I would do whatever I need to to make a living. Yes, I might be looking for jobs that I find more interesting (notice I did not say cushier, I said more interesting), but in the meantime I’ll do what it takes.

            It is hard to match the contempt you just showed for your nation and your fellow citizens here. I cannot think of a more disgusting, despicable, and unpatriotic thing to say about America. If Americans are so lazy, why do they mine coal in West Virginia? It doesn’t get much more unpleasant and dangerous than that. With as many as 57 million unemployed or underemployed Americans, there are plenty out there who are able and willing to do these jobs. The problem here is the employers. Since when did it become okay to work someone for 60 hours at pitiful wages? I thought that was something we left back in the Guilded Age. Working hard is good and fine, but I don’t think a living wage, having weekends off or the equivalent, a 40-hour work week, safe working conditions, and vacation time are too much for American workers to ask for. The fact that they do this shows that there are more than enough workers willing to do these jobs. If they have trouble finding workers, wages and benefits should increase. That is how the free market works. They are trying to cheat the free market when it works to the benefit of their employees. The employers who do this are as good as traitors and deserve at the very least to lose their business, if not criminal charges. Bottom line, they should be totally ruined.

            And if these aliens are so good, why aren’t their nations better places to live than ours is? They are not better than Americans are. The reason they work so hard is because they are exploited scabs.

          2. jointerjohn November 20, 2014

            Mexicans come here because their home country, a model of right-wing politics, is a shithole. No minimum wage, no worker safety protections, regressive taxation, no Social Security, but the most millionaires per capita of any nation on earth. That is why they come here, and that is why once naturalized they don’t vote for republicans.

          3. James Bowen November 20, 2014

            They come from Mexico and other places. If this is allowed to continue, our nation will be no different than they places they came from.

          4. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            In a few years we can all move south of the border and live in peace.

          5. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            That would be nice, but we shouldn’t ruin America to do so.

          6. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            WTF All the beaners will be here so we can move down there.

          7. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            I’d rather stay here and keep this a decent place to live.

          8. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            That comment was my idea of humor. Mexico is a beautiful land but I would not live there , its full of Mexicans. Now I know how to solve that dilemma. Food stamps, welfare and Spanish spoken here.

          9. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

            Yes…and the south is full of KKK White Supremacists. And you as the Supreme High Grand Pubbah of Upper Butt Crack find the KKK preferable to Mexicans you illegally hire to mow your lawn while your double wide butt gets bigger and bigger and bigger?

          10. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            I wish I could find some hard working beaner to mow my lawn. I ended up hiring some out of work carpenter to brush hog. Did you hear that some new recognition identity software identified Kim Kaedashian as being chased by two butter ball turkeys. My butt is 41 pounds lighter than it was a year ago. It did not get smaller it just got flatter. It sounds like you missed your morning business again.

          11. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

            So Mexicans are beaners? That must mean you are likely a Mick, a Polak, a Wop, a Ruzki or a Chink, right? Your parents obviously didn’t bother to teach you class or breeding..I’m guessing you are none of the above…More of the canine breed. Attack dogs…of the right…teeth bared, ready to attack and bite…until someone puts a dog collar on their necks.

          12. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            Wrong on all accounts. I am a cracker. I used to be white bread but over the years I went stale. I guess my next move will be the honky stage. So you don’t like dogs. I just knew you could not be trusted.

          13. Fishy Fishy November 24, 2014

            Did you really mean to insult all these ethnic groups because Hicus gets under your skin? Shame on you. Definitely your mommy and daddy didn’t teach you about respect.

          14. jointerjohn November 21, 2014

            That didn’t happen in the case of this country. They are fleeing bad politics, not dragging it with them.

          15. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            Perhaps, but we cannot serve as a refuge for all of the people in the world caught up in unfortunate circumstances. We don’t have the room or the resources.

          16. jointerjohn November 21, 2014

            You just quoted every Native American leader since about the year 1610.

          17. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            There are important lessons to be learned in what happened to the American Indian tribes.

          18. jointerjohn November 22, 2014

            Thank you for that acknowledgement. My only point in my previous message is that we are a country made up of those fleeing oppression. History and economics might even demonstrate that each wave of immigrants make us stronger. We have had our immigration doors wide open for tens of decades to the Irish, but not to our neighbors to our adjacent south? I happen to be a child of Welsh/English immigrant coal miners combined with the Aabsalooka Tribe of Montana on my mother’s side; and German skilled tradesmen, (carpenters, jointers, cabinetmakers), on my father’s side. The young generation on my father’s side are no longer willing to do menial jobs. Who should do them?

          19. James Bowen November 22, 2014

            There are plenty of Americans who are willing to do those jobs. The very fact that wages are so low in those occupations shows how many people are available to do them. We have more people in this country than we can sustain indefinitely. Immigration is the cause of that unsustainable growth, and we therefore need to drastically reduce it and not let idealistic historical nostalgia block sound policy making.

          20. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            Mexico is a functional dictatorship paying lip service to democracy. Is that right wing?

          21. Rippie November 20, 2014

            That’s partially true, but the power behind the temporary fiatmeisters comes from capitalism run amok. Pure capitalism looks like Mexico. Not pretty, is it?

            On the other hand, when they have disasters, they react damn effin fast compared to the USA… head-spinningly fast. When all the power is focused by all the resources upon one person, things CAN get done quickly.

            The parallel you might want to consider is the CCP and their pure capitalism experiment, purest on earth.

            When the CCP says jump, you jump. Immediately. Even if they are stealing all the money out of the economy.

            You are enjoying your “berserker troll” posts. But you aren’t paying attention and learning anything. That’s a pity.

            BTW, all us whiteys will be the #1 minority in the US in about 15 or so years. The blacks won’t like that, since they worked so hard to get where we will be soon, but it will be interesting to see all you young’ns struggling against the “fair” policies that whites put in place for minorities.

            Yep. I hope you speak Spanish, kid.

          22. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            Please don’t tell me about Mexico. I went there every year for 18 years. I lived in the campo’s washed my clothes in creeks got into one border war. Visited the largest marihuana plantation in the country and sold guns and ammo to rich Mexican land owners and some federal police. Been through central America more times than I can remember, just having fun. I liked adventure. Stick with what you know sparky you stepped out of your comfort zone.

          23. Rippie November 20, 2014

            Now your’e just getting silly. Part of my family is mixed and living in MX a bit outside of Monterey.

            I seriously doubt you were the traveling small arms salesman, like the fruit guy. Also, I seriously doubt the Federales are buying guns and ammo from kids on backpack vacays.

            Sounds like you’re a hellalot more brown than I’ll ever be, kid.

            Oh, and you don’t want to end up a white boy in a MX prison on gun charges. That would not work out too well for you or your butthole.

          24. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            WTF are you talking about?

          25. iowasteve November 21, 2014


          26. jointerjohn November 21, 2014

            Not in the case of all dictatorships pretending to be democratic, but in the case of Mexico, yes, there’s is strong right-wing.

          27. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            The Mexican gov. is no more than the taco mafia. They are not right wing they are greedy criminals.

          28. Rippie November 20, 2014

            I am a realist, a true Indpendent since back when I was told at the Polls “Oh, honey, you have to pick a party. That’s just how it is,” many decades ago. Now, we’re the ones who can swing elections, and we look at the person, not the party platforms.

            You also misunderstand what I mean by “lazy.” American workers are not only lazy in their low-end Union jobs, but intellectually. If a kid knows he or she can “get by” just by taking the risk of going in the mines and not doing much thinking ever, then school is not a priority.

            Considering what kinds of marginal educations and intellects are incubated to fruition in Coal Country (WV, KY, PA etc) and given that with the idiotbox (TV) kids there DO know there’s more, MUCH more, available to them if they just study hard in school, I think you can see my case.

            Americans have become lazy, getting by. There are exceptions, but why give good educations based on reality instead of fables to kids in manual labor country? Make ’em too smart ‘n uppity and they’ll off ‘n go away ‘n who’ll mine the coal?

            There is a calculus to all of this and Unions are at the heart of much of it. They have created a “get by” mentality.

            The evolution from Guilds to Unions was needed and Unions do serve important purposes… in establishing protections, which end up being government agencies.

            Unfortunately, Unions are expensive to the workers, non-optional and expensive to employers, having pushed the cost of production of goods out of competition with the rest of the world.

            Unions also have created the whole slacker/worker mentality. “Don’t make us look bad, brother… Slow it down!”

            And so here we are.

            And immigrants work at the pace that Americans should but won’t, doing jobs that Americans won’t.

            And the FREE market works like this: Employers shop, exactly as consumers do, for the best value. IF, dollar for dollar, they can get better work output from these non-docs, then they’d be stupid to not protect the company’s margins.

            And in the US and most of the world, it is actually illegal to make a decision that can cost profit or jeopardize the return to shareholders with unneeded costs.

            And the argument that wages should go up for crap jobs like burger-flipping (seriously, $15 F’n per hour to flip burgers???) is only going to drive the cost of everything up, rendering the value of the increased minimum wage, and the stable wages of everyone else, a false increase or even a loss.

            If you think Unions are your heroes, fine. Decades and a century or so ago, they certainly were.

            Now, they shelter lazy, undereducated “get-by” workers just trying to get to a pension, in the worst cases. I am adamantly against Tenure and do not support blind seniority.

            Requalification, supplemental education, new certifications, quality of output… these are what matters. If an employer is saddled with Unions, then the Unions should be pushing members to excel, not to slide.

            NO MORE “Don’t make us look bad, man!”

          29. James Bowen November 20, 2014

            Again, there is no such thing as a job Americans won’t do. Illegals only work as hard as they do because they are cheap, exploited scabs, much like plantation slaves were in the South before the Civil War. Take a look at this: http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/occupations-5-1.pdf. You will find here that there is no such thing as a job Americans won’t do, and of the few occupations that have majority immigrant workers, notice the high unemployment in those occupations. Something tells me that you would not be willing to do that kind of work for 60 hours a week for such low wages. Americans will work hard, but they also expect a living wage and decent working conditions. If employers are having a hard time finding workers (according to these figures they are not), they need to raise wages.

            Yes, that is how the free market works, and employees also shop for the best value in the job market. It is in the interests of employees to have a tight labor market. Since a majority of Americans are employees, it is in the best interest of the nation to have a tight labor market. When the labor market is tight, wages increase. Turning to foreign labor to depress the wages of workers is cheating the free market, and using illegal workers to do so is illegal and disloyal. Also, the consumer sees very little benefit from cheap labor. Most of the “savings” goes to lining the profit margins of the corrupt employers. What the consumer does see in and increased tax burden to provide for the foreign workers. In other words, the taxpayer is subsidizing the cheap labor of these corrupt employers–another way of cheating the free market.

            As for your swipe at the people who live in coal country and the mental work ethic of Americans, I seem to recall that the lone survivor of the 2006 Sago Mine disaster was an electrical engineer who took a job in coal mining because it paid better. Again, if employers have trouble finding workers, they need to raise wages and actively recruit. They are not entitled to cheap labor that whose costs are borne by the taxpayer.

            I too am an independent, and I think I can safely say that there are a lot more of us independent who are fed up with illegal immigration and the traitorous employers who hire them than there are ones who support the continuing invasion of the U.S. so that a few can increase their profit margins.

          30. Rippie November 20, 2014

            Well, gee, I AM an Electrical Engineer and I worked for a long time as many as 80 hours a week. I actually enjoyed it, to a degree. I also worked only perhaps 20-25 hours a week for years and enjoyed that, too. Not everyone is educated enough to have any control over their work lives.

            A slack-jawed dumbass who is capable of little more than burger-flipping and CONTINUES to do that in their 30s or 40s? If that’s all they intend to be, why pay them a wage that should buy more?

            If higher wages are to be offered, and employers can shop them out, then they can also demand much more for higher wages. Employees offering nothing more for higher wages?

            Habitually un- or under-employed because people like myself who HAVE paid higher wages and HAVE included training will demand MUCH more from workers… and I got what I paid for by not offering less and not accepting less.

            My competitors hired the cheaper workers and I knew that my people could… and did… outperform them.

            Frankly, accents, skin color, nation of origin… None of that matters. I was hiring brains first. Unfortunately, that often meant NOT hiring Americans.

            I do recall the mention of the EE cum mine worker. That he was the sole survivor actually backs my assertions about the quality of workers in many careers.

            Hiring the best person for the job is the mandate of running and/or owning a business. To do anything else is treachery to the business and it’s the law. Look at the basic standard for profit Corporate Charter and show me where patriotism is more important than profit.

            HELL, show me where ANYTHING is more important than profit!

            I have LONG advocated for a universal and retrospective change to the for-profit Corporate Charter that would put profit BEHIND protection of people, safety and the environment, and put FAIRNESS on top of the heap.

            It will never happen, of course, but maybe if enough people want it and think of it, some of it can. I’m not talking about turning everyone into nonprofits, either.

            I ran above-board businesses that were concerned with workers and the environment. Every one of them already did pro bono or started to do pro bono or nonprofit work when I took over. Not enough to hurt the company, but enough to make a difference.

            I took less pay in order to pay my people more and they knew it. And in exchange for being treated like quality humans, they performed like quality humans.

            We can fix this country, but now without top-notch education for EVERYONE first. In 20 years, we’ll start reaping the benefits.

            ‘Til then, we’re a slipping suckpill of mediocrity and businesses here, in order to survive, need to be able to hire the best employees per dollar they can get… no matter where they come from.

            Otherwise, a lot more than some Americans out of work will result.

          31. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            Well if you are willing to work hard, I think it’s a safe bet that most other Americans are too.

            If employers want to demand more for higher wages, that’s fine. However, market wages are not dictated by education level or skill level or what employers desire, they are dictated by supply and demand. It is therefore in the interests of most Americans that the supply be low. If burger flippers are more in demand than engineers, than yes, they should be paid higher (although that exact scenario is unrealistic and unlikely to happen).

            I agree that accents, skin color, and nation of origin does not matter. However, what does matter is that they are citizens. Since the Constitution requires the government (and citizens for that matter) to prioritize and protect citizens, citizens should get priority over aliens when it comes to jobs. If that means other nations benefit by retaining talented aliens, that serves to motivate our people to develop their talents. Of course a business should hire the best person for a job, but civic obligations take precedent over business obligations. According to our Constitution and our laws, those civic obligations are more important than profit. Ever hear of John Walker? He disagreed, and he just died serving a life sentence as a result.

          32. Rippie November 21, 2014

            That’s not true. My hard work ethic came from seeing my father, a 1st Gen borne American, bust hizazz my entire childhood until I was into my teens before I really got to see him. He went from being the child of blue collar immigrants to being literally the guy who wrote the books on a new discipline in his healthcare field. Achievements don’t walk up and land in your lap. And I played TEAM sports as a kid, was never the Captain, top scorer or fastest, but I learned a lot that people who don’t, don’t. Same for artistic endeavors, some individual, some collective.

            The discussion of wage inequity, which I believe is a legitimate issue, can’t be conflated with unwarranted minimum wage increases for near zero-skill workers. I picked burger-flippers purposely because of that.

            The $1 burger is nearly extinct now, but it would become a $3 burger with a doubling of the minimum wage. And for what? The same slack-jawed, dull-eyed barely-there work output?

            I’d seriously consider a major change of business first. Not a problem paying that if the work and product warrant it, and I already believe that there is a reasonable ratio of incomes in businesses. Too bad many CEOs do not.

            If burger-flipper need exceeds the market’s ability to fill it, wages might rise… a little. Engineers have, during that glut in the 80s, had to take jobs flipping burgers, but they weren’t redesigning the burger or the flip and it was temporary. And it was a last resort when the unemployment ran out while shopping out for an Engineering or related job.

            The problem is the end-sum burger-flipper for life. Nearly NOBODY is that vapid or stupid that they can’t do better, yet many simply settle and then whine about it.

            The instant self-description as a victim of their OWN choice and circumstances of their OWN making. I guess not everyone can get the cushy gas station cigarette counter sales job.

            These jobs are intended to be kid’s jobs or temporary safety jobs at best. Without joking about McD’s U, which grooms managers, not burger-flippers, people don’t wake up as 12 year olds one day and decide they will be burger flippers for life.

            Not unless they are going to open their own burger joint or buy a canteen kitchen truck or something like that. That is TOTALLY different.

            Now, the Constitutional part of this.

            The Constitution requires that the government and citizens must apply all laws EQUALLY and EQUITABLY to all persons. This includes most rights. For example, simply standing on US soil imbues a person with the RIGHT to Free Speech, Expression and Religion. This First Amendment may be the single greatest piece of law ever written, as it paves the way for all discourse and dissent needed to ensure a free society (such as we have at present).

            Due Process, addressed in various places, is guaranteed, therefor, by the 14th Amendment’s Equal Protection clause, primarily, for anyone here. Even aliens.

            Our laws are not withheld from non-citizens or non-residents. In the US, laws apply to all or they are meaningless and apply to nobody. This is a perspective that far left and far right people hold to. The question becomes who “all” is defined to be.

            Entitlements are earned. Citizens and legal residents have the right to apply for entitlements and receive that to which they are entitled. No more, no less. Non-docs are written out of most entitlement programs other than for fundamental life-saving or general public welfare services like fire response.

            In the US, there is NO Constitutional section that mandates the hire of Americans over others. The current (recent) rules require that the person be permitted to work here, but that does not mean they have to be a citizen at all. Otherwise, many high tech industries would be in deep trouble, as would universities who need to attract the brightest fellows. Their bills ain’t gonna pay themselves.

            In fact, to work in the US, you don’t even need to be a permanent resident. You just need to have permission to work from the Feds. Other than verifying that, employers are under no legal compunction Constitutionally or otherwise (thanks to the 14th Am.) to favor citizens, or worse, native borne citizens.

            So, given that, we jump ahead to your statement: “Of course a business should hire the best person for a job…” And that’s my point.

            But NOWHERE in the for-profit Corporate Charter (a boilerplate doc you can find anywhere) or the UCC or anywhere else is “civic duty” superior to “business obligations.” Corporations have sued the Govt even since the early days of the Reconstruction to make sure that they can’t be told what to do other than earn profit.

            So emboldened, now they have successfully sued to be able to act and sound like, and have the protections of individuals, but without the culpabilities. Citizens United opened that Pandora’s Box and now we have big-bucks battles of liars and agenda driven SuperPACs, many of them corporations masquerading as concerned citizens. They are neither.

            So, Govt does not get to tell companies to act in the best civic interest first. Life in America would be very different, and while the small-town model of civic-minded small businesses still exists to a degree, it’s been blowing away much like the topsoil of the Dust Bowl did.

            Little League teams aren’t sponsored pridefully by Louie’s Butcher Shop, but by Target Garden Center. Yep, departments of stores sponsor teams.

            And they do it for the advertising, not the kids.

            Not sure what a trained counter-spy ringmaster has to do with this discussion, but sure, given my background that I cannot discuss (NDAs and all that), I know about Walker. Kind of a red herring here, though, isn’t he?

            You and I want to change the Corporate Charter, though not necessarily for all the same reasons, though the end changes would satisfy both of us, I think.

            But as it stands now, for-profit companies must serve their share-holders and profit first. The management is legally forbidden to make decisions that will cost profit that is otherwise available to them.

            Evil as they are, for a company like Google to tell the CCP to fkkoff and refuse to set up shop in China after Yahoo! kissed their totalitarian azzez and agreed was big. Very big.

            And management had some turnover afterward, even though the move was publicly lauded.

            It doesn’t even matter so much anymore since the in-country China web is pretty much up and running and their own versions of search engines and shopping sites (I have spy IDs registered to several that I access through cascading proxies) are slick, polished and outselling the Western versions already.

            But I still think anything that busts the CCP’s chops is worth doing, especially if others notice and it hastens their demise.

            John Walker… seriously…

          33. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            You are not the only person in this country who has a good work ethic. Tens of millions of Americans do. Pardon me for being blunt, but this really does sound a lot like boasting on your part.

            You still miss the point that wages are driven by supply and demand, not skill or education level. Low-skilled workers would see wage increases if they didn’t have so much competition. And again, the consumer sees no benefit from illegal labor–the “savings” go entirely to lining the profit margins. What consumers do see, however, is an increased tax burden to subsidize the presence of so many alien workers.

            The Constitution established a government to promote the general welfare of the nation. That implies prioritizing citizens over aliens. Immigration policies that permit liberal numbers of aliens to enter and work in economic conditions that are already unfavorable to citizens are in conflict with that principle. During the 50’s and 60’s immigration policies were tight to maintain a tight labor market. The result were the best years, relatively speaking, the American worker has ever experienced.

            The Constitution does in fact hold give citizens more rights and privileges than aliens. Aliens, for example, do not have the right to vote or the right to bear arms.

            Yes, corporations have an obligation to maximize profit. However, they still must do it within the bounds of the law, and it is certainly not out of place for the government to insist via policy that civic duty take precedent over business obligations. After all, those businessmen are citizens first, businessmen second. The economy is to serve the nation, not the other way around. Any nation that put profits above civic health, as I fear we have done, has its days numbered.

            As for bringing up John Walker, my point was that he did what he did out of greed. He wanted more money, and he sold his nation out to do it. There are other ways of selling one’s nation out, such as hiring foreign labor by the millions to replace citizens who need work and at the same time dumping the cost of that “cheap labor” onto the taxpayer.

          34. NoodleDogg #1 November 20, 2014

            Egad, you are pedantic.

          35. Rippie November 20, 2014

            Wasn’t talking to you. You can read and learn or you can skip my posts. I could not care less.

          36. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            You certainly have mastered the art of being rude. Did you get a degree in rudimentary rudeness or is this something passed on to you when you rub Buddhas tummy?

          37. Rippie November 21, 2014

            It comes from being online for 40 years. I don’t take crap from anyone. I played smashmouth hockey back before it was a “thing” and don’t let people get traction. I see it a mile away when a serious problem might come. This guy’s got very little track record and I’ve seen some of his other posts elsewhere, what little there are. He’s a flyweight nuisance.

            Also, let me get something crystal clear: the same can apply to you. I am not online to win any popularity contests, fans, or supporters. I do this to put forth provocative ideas and get dialogs going on topics among people they normally might not have done.

            I try to flip people over from their rigid thinking, often based on hate-systems, like yours appears to be, and like many of the so-called religious-right are, to a more open- minded, broad scope of view. No problem exists purely alone in a vacuum. That is very difficult to communicate to people, whether they are erstwhile rightwingers like you or panickers from the left.

            Propagandistic fear-mongering from the left using facts and propagandistic fear-mongering from the right using faerie-tales, fables and grotesque exaggerations and stereotypes are still propaganda.

            What neither wants to hear is that solutions generally lie in the middle and that the desired state of all parties in a conflict is to no longer be in conflict. It was true when Sun Tzu said it and has been true ever since as repeated by many great and small teachers.

            American politics has lost all semblance of the Art of Compromise, which is how things get done.

            And so, we have this toiletbowl of a system where the President acts unilaterally and challenges the dysfunctional Congress to do better. They won’t.

          38. NoodleDogg #1 November 22, 2014

            When you post on a public site, you are in fact, purposely “talking” (posting, actually) to everyone that chooses to read the post. If you did not want some particular person to read a post, you would, of course, have chosen to post privately, which you did not. Not much, however, can be learned from a post when no supporting documentation is provided. It is enlightening to hear what others think, regardless of how they may have formed an opinion. The distressing issue is that posters, such as yourself, construe your opinion to be infallible fact. Tsk, tsk.

          39. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            Wow did you ever screw up. This teenager agrees with you one hundred percent. My dad had 5 electrical engineers working for him and he never finished high school. Education helps but good character is essential. He was the largest electrical contractor in the state he lived in.

          40. hicusdicus November 20, 2014

            We need to reform the welfare system. Stop paying money to non citizens. ]Put a bounty on welfare cheats like they do on drug dealers. At least drug dealers don’t use up tax dollars and they have big payrolls. Everything has gotten arse backwards. Stop giving our money to hostile governments.

          41. iowasteve November 21, 2014

            As was said already – illegals cannot get food stamps and welfare – you’re barking up the wrong tree there. However, I agree with turning in the Americans that are cheating the system.

          42. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            There is a back door for illegals to get food stamps, that being having anchor baby children.

          43. Rippie November 21, 2014

            The children get WIC if young enough, and otherwise the child and mother ONLY get SNAP if they have no income or too low income. It’s not much, though. It’s pretty tough, I’d think, for a breast-feeding adult woman to eat on $180/mo or less, plus whatever is provided for the baby/child. Hardly a life of luxury.

            Back a couple years ago when SNAP was bumped to $200 max benefit for an adult per month, I was challenged to live on that for a couple of months. Quite an adjustment. It’s doable, but it means eating really crappy food or spending all your time doing preparation and going to the store constantly to buy only things on sale.

            Oh, and you can eat, but you can’t wipe your butt: you can’t buy TP with SNAP. Go figure.

            AT the current max of $180/mo I think, that’s $6 per DAY for an adult, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a 105lb size 2 female or an athletic 240lb 6-2 guy.

            At that budget, you start counting calories to make sure you’re buying ENOUGH calories, and that is where the food quality starts to slide.

            And so, people assume that poor people are fat because they spend all their time and money eating. The reality is the kinds of foods that poor people have access to and can afford to buy.

            And that means more obesity related illnesses to deal with… on the public dime.

            There are a lot of short-sighted solutions to big problems. They may seem clever or fair or reasonable, but giving a tube of Clearasil to a teenager dying of cancer is really not dealing with the big problem, is it?

          44. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            It might not be much, but it still helps enable their presence here. This loophole must be eliminated.

          45. iowasteve November 21, 2014

            The issue at hand is the MUST have a verifiable SSN to get food stamps – period. The only chance of that is if the hospital applies for and SSN for the baby when it’s born (within the USA). And they shouldn’t be doing that in these cases. So, it is the procedures that are causing this – NOT the fact that illegals are here. If the current laws and regulations are followed, this wouldn’t be an issue, now would it? And again, republicans don’t like regulations and want to eliminate as many as they can. Especially on their corporate friends. Probably why so many are not enforced on individuals, now that corporations are now classified as individual people.

          46. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            If the baby is a citizen by birth, they have a valid SSN. Illegals do use their children’s SSN’s to get welfare.

          47. iowasteve November 21, 2014

            Funny, you should mention this. If this baby is considered a citizen by birth, then this would mean Ted Cruz CANNOT run for President – wouldn’t that be a fair statement?

          48. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            You are just funnin me , right? Try and bring the gov. attention to a welfare and see how it goes

          49. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Was that English?

          50. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            It was lack of English. Centurytel, what a piece of crap internet service. Maybe I need net neutrality. A perfectly good pot puffing session can be totally ruined by lousy internet service.

          51. Rippie November 21, 2014

            I’m a staunch advocate for Net Neutrality and hope that Terd Crudz gets handed his butt on the colossal lies he’s spewing, as usual.

            I have occasional word-skipping, but mostly it’s just last letters on the sides of the kb. First the knees go… then the pinkies.

            I saw you edited your post. You really should not be getting baked all the time. It does kill brain cells, and they’re cells you may really REALLY want in the future.

          52. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            You don’t have centurytel. You should bone up on the latest health reports about pot. Being alive kills brain cells, being bored kills brain cells, reading political internet commentary nukes brain cells. Oh yeah! nicotine is not addictive. The bottom line is, anything that helps get through life with out ramming a pencil in to your ear drum is good. You seem to be very uptight. Being uptight can stop the formation of bowl ringers and that is bad. Nobody wants to pass away while constipated. The embalmers charge extra.

          53. Rippie November 21, 2014

            By your logic, drinking Clorox is just another thing. Nicotine is addictive. Don’t kid yourself.

            And there are many alternatives for “getting through” without the pencil in the ear trick. I’m not uptight at all and regular as a railroad clock. I also sleep very well and don’t get heartburn even though I eat very high heat foods.

            I realize that there are some studies that show potential medicinal uses for specific chemicals in pot, but pot itself, overall, may feel nice, but it costs you brain cells and other problems.

            They are worth trading off for the palliative effects of smoking for certain patients, especially if they are terminal. What’s a few brain cells plus or minus in that situation?

            The problem, too, is that pot is especially dangerous for smokers under 30 whose brains are not yet finished networking. Idling your time online aimlessly jibing with people isn’t goint to build the networking connections you want.

            I can see that you’re not a dimwit, but on this track, you will end up being one.

            Hence my advice. You are free, of course, to take it or leave it as you choose.

            We’ll see how you’re doing in a decades, I suppose.

          54. iowasteve November 21, 2014

            I have to completely agree with you about the net neutrality issue. There is no good reason for one company to control the majority of the internet in this country either. I hope the FCC continues to not allow the shady deal between Time Warner and Comcast. It’s going to be bad for everyone, including those without Comcast or TW/RR, unfortunately. Besides setting a very dangerous presidence.

          55. NoodleDogg #1 November 22, 2014

            Other than just being a smart butt, why not attempt to extract the substance of a post rather than pick the nits? By your way of thinking, you should be against immigration of our lesser American brethren as they are generally ill educated, non-English speaking and unskilled. Truly below your station in life and probably not worthy of conversing with you about anything. Would you ever want them as your next door neighbor or serving you your latte? You post on the internet but do you actually do anything to make the country better? I suspect you are just another huff and puff pseudo-intellectual armchair critic.

          56. iowasteve November 21, 2014

            No, I don’t think I’m “funnin” you at all. However, I had a hard time understanding your statement, as did Rippie, but if I read it correctly, you are saying that turning them in doesn’t do any good. You are right in many cases. But the issue isn’t the illegal, the issue is not enforcing the laws that exist. And unfortunately, this is the answer all republicans complain about when you try to fix a problem, they like having, but if it is a problem they don’t like having, then the table turn completely around. For instance. We talk about increasing regulations for gun control and the republicans all start screaming about that not being necessary, all we have to do is enforce existing laws. Talk about something they are not in favor of, like immigration, and they want NEW laws and are not willing to obey existing laws – even if the law was signed by their own side’s President or that law was in place by a hero president of theirs. They don’t like laws that prevent corporations from violating the general population’s rights to clean air and water and want to completely remove the EPA from governments, but don’t touch anything to do with their NRA buddy’s projects of putting guns into the hands of every person in America – criminal or not. Even though there are laws about that as well. Let’s not enforce laws when it’s not convenient for them, but let’s make tons more laws at the same time for other things. They forget that if those illegals are working with working permits, they are paying taxes into the system. You would have thought that the republicans would love this idea, it accomplishes two things for them that they have pushed for for decades. 1 – higher corporate profits to NOT pay tax on and 2 – helping to elminiate minimum wage so more Americans won’t be able to take care of their families and reduce the number of the 47% they don’t care about when they die from starvation or get arrested for committing crimes to feed their families. And of course, they will die faster when they no longer have fair healthcare at the same time. The republicans are more communist than any other group in this country and they have everyone convinced they are the heros – just lke Hitler did.

          57. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

            I guess we need to put you in charge. You seem to know everything. You are good at prattling on about it even if you are slightly misinformed. Political comment has no right or wrong it is all bias based on who knows what.

          58. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Paragraphs, buddy. They can be your best friend. YOU need to learn how to use them. A bigazz block of text is totally unappealing and this isn’t FB.

          59. iowasteve November 21, 2014

            Sorry, I wrote it that way so maybe hicusdicus might understand it better without the breaks in reading. Anyway, I see he thinks they should put me in charge. Not a bad idea, but the corporations and the rich 1% would not like me very much.

            For one thing, as I have already said, I would eliminate the tax loopholes for them and that would definitely hurt their profits, which it should because if they want the protections afforded by the Bill of Rights as individuals, then they should be taxed the exact same way.

            I would also create the fair tax act by forcing the passage of HR25 or whatever it is now. Spending would be reduced greatly by eliminating the ability of Congress to continue holding stupid hearings on things that don’t exist and have already been decided upon.

            The Republicans are responsible for a large majority of the wasted spending that’s been going on for 10 years now and I’m not sure it will stop in the next 2 either.

            Just my thoughts.

          60. NoodleDogg #1 November 22, 2014

            And I suggest the kettle shouldn’t call the pot black. Proof for your own typos. Oh, that’s right: You are an excellent typist and never look back on your posts.

          61. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Correct. Entitlement programs accept anonymous tips. Any police tipline will refer such tips, too. This includes great interest by HUD, SSA, SNAP, WIC and other programs. I have actually researched this in the past. They want to know who is lying or cheating or outright imposters.

          62. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            I agree.

          63. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Legal residents and citizens may receive welfare if qualified. Non-docs may not. There are tip-lines for welfare and SSA cheats, btw. People do get turned in. Drug dealers absolutely DO use up tax dollars, and their payrolls are siphoned to capitalize other criminal activity, not the least of which is racketeering and murder. IF you do drugs, sell drugs, distribute drugs, you ARE giving our money away to hostile governments.

          64. kenndeb November 20, 2014

            When you need a job to feed yourself and/or family, you take any job you can find. I’ve worked fields and farms, factories, and janitorial work before. I’ve also worked as an illegal in Mexico for very low wages, but it was enough to buy food. If these illegals want to come here to work, I’m all for it, as long as they come here under the same rules as those before them. That means learning to speak English. Anyone coming here illegally have already broken our laws, so why reward them?

          65. Rippie November 20, 2014

            I have long felt that learning the language should be a requirement to be a naturalized citizen, and even those who marry for a green card should have to learn English to near fluency in order to stay. Not in 3 months, but it has to happen.

            Some people do what it takes. I did some dangerous and very demanding jobs early on, especially that first couple years of married life. It wasn’t about pride in the job, it was about pride in being a man (and woman, in the wife’s case), so we busted hump the first couple years to get going, including the Navy, taking on jobs most could not qualify for, which took hard work.

            Some people do what it takes. Now, I have serious osteoarthritis from some of the past… and sports… but I got here honestly.

            I think you need to have been in a position to be hiring people in the last few decades to see the gradual decline in motivation, effort and education. It’s remarkable to see the dramatic deterioration in language skills and even basics like spelling.

            Speaking with people? Young folks are so inarticulate now that it’s painful, and I’m in a city with better educated kids (Boston) than most cities.

            It has come to the point that I actually compliment people when they speak well.

            “You speak beautifully!” These young people, especially POCs, need to be reinforced for their efforts. Good language skills demonstrates a lot about a person.

            Listen to kids and young adults around the country and tell me again how Americans aren’t lazy. I’m not talking about accents. I’ve lived in different parts of the country, so that’s not the problem.

            I dare you.

          66. James Bowen November 20, 2014

            No, most of them are not lazy. Take a look at this: http://cis.org/are-there-really-jobs-americans-wont-do. I think the laziest ones are the employers who increase their profit margins by hiring legions of cheap peasant foreign labor instead of innovating to find more efficient ways of getting the work done.

          67. Rippie November 20, 2014

            We’re starting to converge but with different experiential perspectives. I’m not a supporter of predatory hiring, but I also don’t feel that employers should be forced to settle because a citizen gets “first dibs.”

          68. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            Citizens should get first dibs by virtue of the fact that we are a nation and we are supposed to take care of our own. The government, and citizens, have a Constitutional duty to provide for citizens. The economy serves the nation, not the other way around.

          69. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Interesting, but wrong. You somehow morph a moral or ethical “obligation” into being what, the Elevendy-Twelfth Amendment?

            Is there a Constitutional Clause in the Body or in the Amendments that mandates that Citizens (or Govt for that matter) have a legally compulsory “duty to provide for citizens?”

            Survey says??? No.

            And the economy serves the nation? I think we are looking at two different nations here. There are the people, which the economy does not serve, and there’s the co-entity of Govt and Big Business. THAT, the economy does serve.

            I don’t know where you’re reading or learning this stuff, but wow. Just wow.

            One of the arguments used against ALL entitlement programs, guaranty laws and protections other than against the basics like being murdered is that there are no Constitutional guarantees of being provided for. There are no guarantees of healthcare. Of a house, 40 acres, a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage or any of the other popular euphemisms for success or parity and partnership in America.

            In fact, there are no guarantees to anyone that they get a meal.

            Greedy SOB Libertarians and asshat Rethuglicans say those things as justification for being cheapass uncompassionate dicks.

            Thankfully, there are enough people who have a sense of community and shared destiny, with the moral or ethical backbones to make it happen that there are safety net systems.

            If all things are equal between applicants, then citizens who apply for jobs should get preference. Helping a native neighbor seems like helping family.

            Unfortunately, things are not always equal and my experience in hiring immigrants (I-9 legal, btw, I’ve always tried to keep right with the law once it was better defined) has been that they are generally more eager and harder workers, punctual and pleasant.

            In other words, they don’t exhibit any of the Workerzilla behavior that so many Americans seem to.

            Over the decades, I found, too, that try as I might, it was becoming increasingly difficult to find non-primadonna American employees. Decreasing language and interpersonal skills, drastically reduced attention spans and unbreakable tethering to smartphones and socnet apps makes young starter hires tough. AND, they get self-righteously pissed off if you tell them to put their phones away until lunch break or after work.

            Well, garshk, wouldn’t want to let work interrupt your gossip and gab chatfests, now, would we?

            I’m sure this is happening in other nations, too, where the citizen kids are taking advantage.

            And the law does NOT force me to take it as an employer, just to make sure that my hires are legally entitled to work.

            Now, I don’t think you’re as progressive as you’re trying to sound. But I am. I’d also LOVE to see some fundamental changes to hiring and employment rules and traditions.

            If we need to rely upon immigrant labor in order to bring “Made in USA” back onto products… and products worth buying around the world, even though that’s not a long-game solution, then we need to make it possible to capitalize upon quickly.

            If hiring an immigrant sounds bad, remember that he shops in your neighbor’s stores. Pays your neighbor rent. Pays taxes. Volunteers at Church or Civic orgranizations. Gets involved in politics, if in no other way than volunteering.

            If you think immigrants don’t help to “provide for citizens,” think again. Think long and hard.

          70. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            How about that part in The Preamble that states one of the purposes of the Constitution to “promote the general welfare”. Bring in tens of millions of aliens to depress wages and increase the labor pool is not promoting the general welfare. This is our home, not theirs. The economy is supposed to serve the nation, not the other way around. Yes, there are a lot of selfish interests that have corrupted the government and our lawmaking process, and there always has been, but it wasn’t always this bad.

            You are right that there are no guarantees. Every person is responsible for their own actions and making a living. Neither the government nor anyone else can do that for them. However, what can be done is to have laws and policies that help people help themselves. Bringing in millions of foreign scabs and rigging the labor market in the favor of a few is not doing this.

            The law does in fact demand that you hire legal workers. When the U.S. Chamber of Commerce sued Arizona in 2008 for their mandatory E-Verify law, the presiding judge ruled in favor of Arizona, angrily telling the Chamber of Commerce that doing business and making money does not entitle them to break the law.

            Finally, there are plenty of good American workers out there. If aliens were so much better than Americans, the nations that most of them come from would not be the third world messes they are. When formerly illegal aliens were granted amnesty in 1986, surprise, they started being more insistent upon better wages and working conditions and less docile. And having so many alien workers here, they take far more than the give to the American public.

        2. iowasteve November 21, 2014

          I’m curious why you care about wages of Americans… It’s YOUR party, republicans, who want to eliminate the minimum wage so the pay you are so concerned about it going to go down even farther. You really should think before you spout off more of that non-sense from Fox.

          1. James Bowen November 21, 2014

            Not all Republicans are like that. It’s mainly their leaders and their donors who want to do that (the same donors which control the Democrats by the way). Besides, I’m not a Republican.

          2. iowasteve November 21, 2014

            Well, you talk like a Republican. Also, it IS most republicans that are like that. They all want to protect the corporations by eliminating minimum wage. Even Ms. Joni from Iowa here ran on that – and the idiots here STILL elected her. They could have voted for someone else – there were more than her and Braley on the ballot to choose from. You don’t vote for the bad person to keep the one you don’t like out of office. It doesn’t really accomplish what you believe it will. I don’t care if they win or lose, I do not believe in voting for the lesser of two evils. And Joni was a nightmare for Iowa and the idiots that she will hurt the most are the ones that voted FOR her. Doesn’t make sense to me at all.

  12. Louis Allen November 20, 2014

    This “reporter”, again, tries to confuse the real issue here.
    1) He says: “It’s not hard to understand why Obama is doing this, …” Why, of course !! Because he wants the votes of all these illegals (turned into legals by the Dems).
    2) He says: “With a functioning Congress, large changes to immigration would rightly
    be the legislature’s prerogative. Of course, we don’t have a functioning
    Congress,…” This, my friends, has to be among the most idiotic statements ever uttered (but, of course, he knows who his captive audience is). This guy constitutes himself on the authority who determines if Congress “functions” or not.
    3) This guy, obediently following the lead of the lame duck (Mr. Excuses), very slickly avoids the descriptor “illegal” when he talks about immigrants.

    The intellectual dishonesty of the Dems is sooo patent. A few weeks after their debacle they have already “forgotten” the causes for their defeat. But, sweat not Dems because, should you succeed in turning the illegals into legals (won’t happen !) you will win future elections by a landslide, … and FOREVER.

  13. Julia Milazzo November 20, 2014

    Here in the United States, two trends—better education and an aging
    population—have resulted in a decrease in the number of Americans
    willing or available to take low-paying jobs. Between 2000 and 2005, the
    supply of low-skilled American-born workers slipped by 1.8 million.

    The Social Security Administration estimates that half to three-quarters
    of undocumented immigrants pay federal, state and local taxes,
    including $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security taxes for benefits
    they will never get. They can receive schooling and emergency medical
    care, but not welfare or food stamps.

    1. Rippie November 20, 2014

      Yep, it’s about 3/4 of them who willingly pay taxes, even have taxpayer ID numbers. But they’re in a limbo between being able to get what they pay for and being utterly under the table. The goal, though, is mostly to pave the way for their kids.

      Education is backsliding and has been as the rightwingers have kept insisting (thanks Texas!) on conflating faerie-tales into science as “fact” or “plausible established theory.”

      Creationism is neither.

      Our GOP inflicted education “correction” very intentionally creates under-educated low-end workers, critical to the trickle-up theft of wealth so important to Rethuglicans.

      Many of these disheartened people have given up. The crappy manufacturing jobs have been exported to where people will work even more cheaply and won’t complain.

      Meanwhile, instead of bettering themselves, if they can’t get a slide-by job, preferably working for the State or City, of course, they “become disabled” and that’s the end of it. A little effort and an attorney get’s them SSDI and they “get by.”

      These non-docs cannot do that, so they outperform American low-end workers. That cannot be a surprise: They love their kids and will do what it takes.

    2. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

      Yeah! All that money they pay in goes for welfare for unemployed Americans. With the help of relatives and friends they do get welfare and food stamps. Go to some of the fraud sites and read.

  14. Iceman November 20, 2014

    Obama lies. It’s apparently all he knows how to do.

    1. highpckts November 21, 2014

      Like I said above to someone else above, You just keep believing that. It might make your crazy seem less crazy to you!!

    2. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

      Prove it in a court of law Joi Boi…Or YOU are the liar.

      1. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

        You mean Holders court of law.

        1. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

          No..I meant Bush’s Court of law.the one with the 5 Big Male Balls muscling the rest of the court to their ultra conservative values? Law is not ideology. It’s law. When Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas all gang up on the rest of the court, these 4 ultra rich ultra conservative Bulls pull rank…they don’t read law.

          1. Rippie November 21, 2014

            Other than not putting much of the skids on the NSA, this SCOTUS is SO not “Holder’s Court.”

            This is the most conservative SCOTUS since, when, 100 years ago? Frankly, I’m amazed they haven’t taken it upon themselves to put a shill up to hear the case to overturn Roe v. Wade yet. Shocked, in fact.

          2. Eleanore Whitaker November 22, 2014

            The GOP today believes all it has to do to implement mass ultra conservatism is to use our tax dollars to pump funding into their billionaire cronies bank accounts. They forget one thing: those tax dollars are not exclusively theirs to play with as they please. Their plan is to undermine and weaken anything that doesn’t make billions in profit for their cronies. Their threats of defunding the ACA and immigration reform will get them into the most hot water they ever gotten into…Malfeasance and use of funding against the will of the masses is a big time Constitutional No No. If the GOP dares to defund, they will be viewed as using our tax dollars solely for THEIR interests. Watch the revolts in the streets over that little tyranny.

  15. nana4gj November 20, 2014

    I’m writing after the fact. I watched and heard the President outline his executive action on immigration. Before I begin, “executive action” uses prosecutorial discretion to affect how all or parts of a law are enforced and can be over-rided via Congressional legislation of a bill. Executive action is perfectly legal and Constitutional, as is Executive Power, which is as good as a legislated bill.

    The action the President outlined is not earth-shattering, “risky”, amnesty, or worthy of the outcome predicted by James Coburn (R) Okla, that being insurgency risings up in the streets of America, a comment I find troubling, irresponsible, incitive, and, so, if anything like that happens, or the President’s safety is at higher risk, or he is physically harmed by a nutcase who took Coburn’s words and ran with them, I will hold him directly and personally responsible.

    I will also hold responsible all of those Republicans who have made such an ugly issue out of such a mild set of actions taken by the President that have no untoward outcomes for anyone affected by those actions, other than the felons, those who are attempting to illegally enter at present, and others up to no good.

    It matters not what the President says or does, he will always be met with anger, hostility, rejection, obstruction, and assignation of the worst kinds of descriptives by Republicans, who never put forth a better idea, who have crafted not one piece of significant legislation that is relevant. But to inject these incendiary remarks from a sitting US Senator is going a bit too far. Perhaps, this Senator needs a psychiatric evaluation or a visit from the Secret Service. This is the same Senator who declared a POW “perfectly healthy” from viewing a video of him in captivity with a bunch of fanatics, an assessment of one fanatic on the effects another fanatic may have had on a POW’s health by an MD who has no need for blood tests, xrays, MRIs, physical exams, psychological evals, or, anything else that he was, hopefully, taught in med school.

    I don’t care if they were elected to both Majorities. I still think that doesn’t prove they are sane, reasonable, capable, intelligent, or capable of anything more than hate, anger, irresponsibility, laziness. When you look at their existence over the past 6 years, and now, clearly, their problem is much more than politics. There is a complete demoralization of collective and individual character. They don’t even have a sense of humor. Foul, sour, doom and gloom.

    1. highpckts November 21, 2014

      Well said!!

      1. hicusdicus November 22, 2014

        How would you know if something is well said? You have never posted a comment that was well said.

    2. Rippie November 21, 2014

      Obama said last night what he’s been saying all along to this churlish do-nothing obstructionist Congres: “Pass a Bill!” It really is that simple. And now the Rethuglicans have exactly what they’ve feared most: responsibility for solving the non-doc problem. Having already turned their backs on the solutions favored by the Bushes, which aren’t unreasonable at all, they’ve allowed the idiots of the TP to direct their actual thinking. Deluded by hatred masquerading as “compassion for citizens,” codification of racism is just around the corner.

      It’s worth noting that nearly everything of any big importance over the last half dozen years has been at the expense of creating a victims sub-group to abuse, whether it’s sexually or gender based or racially based or religiously based.

      I feel especially anxious for Gay Brown Muslims who want to marry right now. And yeah, they exist… Not in Iran, of course, according to ex-Pres. Amidoinjihad, but they exist here.

      How can SO much hatred keep building up in these spiteful Terds without their clenched sphincters finally tearing open and emptying everything they are out into the toilet???


      1. hicusdicus November 22, 2014

        You feel anxious for homosexual gay Muslims. If two homosexual Muslims get married are they technically still Muslims ? What kind of anxious feeling do you have? I have the feeling they are not anxious about you. My goodness your true feeling are bubbling up. What you have said seems senseless and immature. You are a common hater of anything that does not agree with you. At least that what your post said.

    3. Eleanore Whitaker November 22, 2014

      Coburn is scared silly that his state will now have to pay all of those undocumented workers his cronies pay dirt wages to and now have to pay the employer taxes his cronies stiffed the government and the rest of the states when they hire undocumented workers.

      These workers are not given healthcare or retirement benefits and on the wages paid in Oklahoma, they are forced to rely on SSDI to supplement their healthcare needs which means the rest of us pay for their healthcare.

      Typical southern skankology BS. Bitch about the government that is paying SSDI to OK’s undocumented workers because OK employers can’t earn their profits without skanking the rest of the states.

  16. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

    Notice how the trolls who post tripe day after day are the ones whining about “loss of jobs?” Were they catatonic when in March 2004, 10,000 Shearson Lehman employees lost jobs in a single day? Were they hiding under McMommy’s and McDaddy’s bed when in 2005 the DOL largely in the control of the Bush Administration and GOP announced the warning of loss of jobs that by 2008 had the DOL reporting increased to 8 million?

    Whenever you hear some Joi Boi troll on one of these threads gospels, you just know you have to “consider the source.” The source is usually a sociopathic who fought McMommy and McDaddy tooth and nail. Contrarian sociopathic narcissists live in a world of their own. So their daily tripe does absolutely ZERO to improve or resolve an issue. Bitching is what they do best. Pitching in would mean losing those callouses on their butts and doing actual work for change. Work is the four letter word they dump on those cheap labor illegals who mow their grass and they hire as “maids”.

    1. nana4gj November 21, 2014

      How credible are they on anything when every single thing will cause “loss of jobs”????

    2. hicusdicus November 21, 2014

      Do you ever take time for going to the bathroom? Oh never mind you take your lap top with you. Don’t forget to turn on the vent fan. When ever I read your posts I have turn on the vent fan. Do you think you will ever grasp how the world really works? Your god awful rude posts really make the liberals look bad. Are you a shill for the GOP?

      1. Eleanore Whitaker November 22, 2014

        Do you ever do anything that doesn’t benefit you you you ? You suffer terminal hemorrhoids and constipation from all your BS backing up in your brain.

        1. hicusdicus November 23, 2014

          I do not suffer from terminal hemorrhoids. I am a hemorrhoid.There is nothing backing up in my brain. My brain is quite empty. I do suffer from constipation and it is caused by liberal democrat Obama lovers.
          When you miss your morning business and have an immaturity meltdown. I feel blessed. I will pray to Jerry Falwell to intercede with the almighty to help you see the light. Mend your evil ways and discover what your gender really is. Next time you wish to post something, I will loan you my post hole digger.

  17. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

    The GOP morons bitch Obama doesn’t do anything. Then, they roll on the floor like a bunch of babies pulling tantrums when he does. Meanwhile, their dirty little secret is they “stall and delay” reform tactics that since Reagan was in office has the GOP ignoring the US’s most pressing issue…smell that corporate profit from all of that stall and delay of reforms?

  18. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

    The GOP can and should have arrested ANY US employer who hires illegals…Why don’t they? What’s the matter bois? Your source of campaign funding might disappear?

  19. Eleanore Whitaker November 21, 2014

    A reminder to the righties and GOP bulls…

    “Texas state Rep. Aaron Pena, a Republican, said, “the exception is a
    wise one. With things as they are today, her (Riddle’s) bill will see a large
    segment of the Texas population in prison” if it passes without the
    exception,” he said.

    “When it comes to household employees or yard workers it is
    extremely common for Texans to hire people who are likely undocumented
    workers,” Pena said. “It is so common it is overlooked.”

    The bills and other illegal immigration-related bills filed by
    Riddle and others reflect an increased pressure from constituents for action on the issue,” Pena said.

    Then, typical Texan BS, Pena goes on to blame the US government “Because the federal government isn’t doing its job, residents press state officials to act,” he said.

    Leo Berman, a Republican state representative, agreed that there
    was a stronger voice from Texas voters on the issue. “Absolutely,” he

    Riddle, Pena and Berman are the biggest liars going. They, along with AZ, NM and CA have already received $90 billion…for border protection. They refuse to jail employers and then hire illegals…all while they hold out their corrupt paws for more funding for border protection?

  20. nana4gj November 21, 2014

    I love and respect what those who “look like” undocumented workers do for Texas, what they bring to our lives, and how hard they work and want to please with their very special artisan talents in which they take a great deal of pride.

    I love the way they care for their children and families, parents, aunts, uncles, nephews, and nieces, and how they insist that they go to school and bring them to work with them on weekends and summer holiday and spring breaks.

    I love how they treat me with such respect and care and, most especially, I love that I can communicate with them in my broken Tex-Mex and they can do the same w/me in their broken English and I love their humor and generosity of spirit.

    It’s crazy how some in DC, in Congress, and across the country, have no relationships with the people and the lives people live; that they would go to any and all lengths to take healthcare access away from them; to leave aspiring good people languishing in the shadows; and want to do nothing on anything that affects or impacts the dignity of human beings and the lives of people. Even on policies of economy, their ideology has nothing to do with the reality of life. Nothing they propose has any relevance and cannot be applicable to the human dynamic. Now, they don’t even propose even that.

    They do nothing but destroy, harm, undermine, obstruct, and punish. I don’t know what “American people” they are speaking of, when they use the term so disrespectfully, again, for political exploitation.

    I wonder how many “braceros” John Cornyn has working on his ranch?

    1. Rippie November 21, 2014

      I hope there are a LOT more people like you in TX. I declined to move there and take a VERY attractive deal on a lovely house because folks like you are much more rare than you might realize.

      Keep standing for those who have no voice. What Perry did to the healthcare system there by shutting down the PP clinics was, I believe, criminal, and after hearing what happened to Eric Kennie in Austin or Mr McGriff in Dallas, among MANY MANY others in voting ID requirement poll-taxes, I’m more convinced than ever that Slick Rick should be arrested and put on trial for abuse of power, among other things.

      The main reason the “Great State-a Texas” swung Red this time through was the Voter ID rules which were struck down IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING the election because it would have been “too late” to NOT force people to jump through hoops to avail themselves of their RIGHTS when the decision was made.

      How bloody convenient.

      Keep making noise. As Mr Burns would say, I like the cut of your jib.

      1. nana4gj November 21, 2014

        Texas Republicans are some of the, well, just plain ugliest Republicans you can find. Rick Perry thinks he will be a President, so, the next governor is just like him. As Attorney General, he was suing the President and the Federal Gov’t over anything, at least on a weekly basis. That is the new strategy for Republicans, “Don’t govern, don’t legislate, don’t serve, just sue,” from a state that touts tort reform and disdains trial lawyers.

        There are many good, lovely, intelligent, generous people in this state. We used to be so Democratic Blue that Republicans didn’t even hold primaries. Then, they began the gerrymandering and redistricting, now the voter disenfranchisement, by hook or by crook. Strangely, 3/4 of the state is blue, with only pockets of it the big bleached blond hair right wingers and loud mouthed hypocritical ignoramuses. I’m a native Texan and cannot abide that affected Texas drawl.

        We will keep working at besting the system they have created as a result of not appealing legitimately to all of Texas. Perry has decimated not only healthcare availability, but also education, environment, and he gives “religiosity” a bad name that leaves a sour taste in one’s mouth. He’s also a bit “dumb”….Another dumb Republican politician from Texas…..not only are Texas Republicans the ugliest in the country, they are also the dumbest, have you noticed? and that’s pretty dumb.

  21. Eleanore Whitaker November 22, 2014

    Notice how the right wing and GOP who have earned the most profits from undocumented workers are the loudest mouths complaining? Nearly every southern GOP bull politician is hot under the collar, outraged and acting as if someone stole his appendix without unbuttoning his shirt. Why?
    These liars and frauds can’t name a single thing in the 8 Bush years that helped anyone but the 1% and their corporate welfare recipients.

    They had decades to make the reforms to healthcare and immigration. They stalled and stalled and stalled. Just imagine how much 45 years of that stalling equals in their cronies profits.

    Because no matter what else you learn about the Republicans, their basic strategy is and has ALWAYS been, STALL and DELAY. For every day they stall on healthcare and immigration reform, it’s one more day their capitalistic extortionist cronies earn another billion in profit.

    Why else would the Senators from OK, TX, GA, TN, KY, MS, LA and IN all be so hot to keep stalling on immigration reform if not for the huge billions in profits their stalling earns their cronies?

    But when you get down to the nitty gritty of the BS the GOP politicians threats, they are riding dangerously close to making threats to refuse to fund ANY reforms. How is that dangerous? That money in those funds DO NOT belong solely to them. It belongs to all of us who pay taxes.

    So let’s suppose that the jerks of the right and morons of the GOP withhold funding. How isn’t THAT overstepping THEIR authority to use those tax funds for things ALL not just hick state Americans want?

    Let them make their stupid threats. In the end, they dare and try to defund programs that passed legislation or that the president has EVERY right to sponsor and watch how fast they find themselves unemployed.

    The GOP House is NOT the ONLY Government in town. It is supposed to work in tandem with ALL other branches of government. When the GOP takes such autonomous control of tax dollars, they get what they asked for: REVOLT.

    1. NoodleDogg #1 November 22, 2014

      The 3 branches of government, legislative, executive and judicial are supposed to work with each other via the checks and balances concept. Just as you are upset over the Republicans, which I take you mean Congress, controlling tax dollars, the President–Executive branch–choosing to unilaterally violate the law of the land to advance his agenda is also cause for revolt. His job is to enforce law, not make it. He is obligated to cooperate with the Congress elected by the citizens, just as Congress is obligated to constrain his attempts to usurp legislative power vested in Congress. That means he may not ignore the written law simply to advance his pet projects.

      1. Eleanore Whitaker November 22, 2014

        Try again. The 3 branches of government each have different duties and responsibilities. How do you not know this? This means that Congress cannot presume to dictate to the Executive branch that which is solely and entirely the duty and responsibility of the Executive branch.

        The president’s job is to enforce the law? BS. That’s the job of the Supreme Court. Who approves or disproves laws put before the court. There are 3 branches of government with separate and distinct duties: Executive which carries out the laws put forth by the Legislative branch and the Judicial Branch which is the Supreme Court. However, the president has the power to veto that which he believes is not in the best interests of the people of this country. Do you want to deny this president the veto power you allowed GOP presidents to use with gusto?

        The 3 branches are equal. However, their duties are not. The president can declare war without the consent of Congress according to the Constitution although he is advised to seek the “counsel” not approval of Congress.

        The GOP House majority is dangerously close to using our tax dollars to take revenge on the president by refusing to fund any of the programs that the legislative branch or the president has sponsored. The president according to the Constitution has the right to vote when the Congress is in stalemate…

        If the GOP goes ahead and withdraws funding, it will have for the first time in US history violated the right of taxpayers to have their tax dollars used for the greatest good…not to get revenge. How childish do you men of the right and GOP plan to get before women get fed up and start kicking asses and taking names?

        1. NoodleDogg #1 November 22, 2014

          Interesting interpretation of the government partitions. The Supreme Court is responsible for explaining and interpreting the Constitution. It does not make laws. Congress makes laws. Congress can also override a veto of the President. The President’s use of executive power as defined in the Constitution were meant to be facilitate the Executive branch personnel carry out their duties and its handling of administrative duties. Thus, the current President trying to use executive powers to circumvent existing laws is really reaching beyond the powers vested to the Executive branch. In all fairness to the current President, the abuse of executive power has been going on for many, many Presidents, Republican and Democrat. While many want to use the issue of executive power as a political party football, the more important issue is the erosion of the Constitution.

          1. Independent1 November 22, 2014

            Sorry but you’re wrong. The president has great authority to create rules, regulations and instrucions on how legislation will be carried out – without any approval from Congress:

            See this:

            Within the executive branch itself, the president (if in office) has broad powers to manage national affairs and the workings of the federal government. The president can issue rules, regulations, and instructions called executive orders, which have the binding force of law upon federal agencies but do not require congressional approval.

            According to the Budget and Accounting Act of 1921, the president is also responsible for preparing the United States’ budget, although Congress must approve it.[1]The Office of Management and Budget assists the president with the preparation of the budget. In the past (but no longer), the president was able to impound funds as he saw fit. The power was available to all presidents and was regarded as a power inherent to the office. The Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 was passed in response to large-scale power exercises by President Nixon. This act also created the Congressional Budget Office as a legislative counterpoint to the Office of Management and Budget.

            Site for me please ONE Executive Order Obama has issued that has exceeded his ability to define rules, REGULATIONS (which are equivalent to laws) and instructions that have violated this authority.

            One example please.

          2. NoodleDogg #1 November 23, 2014

            The President does not write laws. Congress writes laws. Laws are not the same thing as rules, regulations and instructions. The President may very well consider his dictates the equivalent of a law, but that is wishful and very dangerous thinking. If you chose to agree with the concept that the supreme leader of the nation has final say on what is or is not a law, then you have a dictator.

          3. Eleanore Whitaker November 23, 2014

            The president can propose laws. It’s the duty of the legislative branch to review the Presidents proposals and pass or reject them.

            The president has authority you seem not to want to credit him with. Is there a reason why this president is held to a different standard than you held GOP presidents to? Your posts prove that you are all too biased in your thinking to produce a single thought or idea worth consideration. Not when all are filtered through the prism of your and only your biased views.

            I agree with the concept that I voted twice for the president I considered the best for the greater good of all Americans. You didn’t vote for him because you knew all your corrupt little cronies who lived in excess and obscene wealth were going to be under the microscope…admit it…Your posts promote continued corruption that bankrupts democracy and all Americans but you and your cronies.

          4. NoodleDogg #1 November 23, 2014

            I do not single out the current President with respect to misuse of executive powers. You apparently overlooked the following in one of my replies to a post of yours: “…In all fairness to the current President, the abuse of executive power has been going on for many, many Presidents, Republican and Democrat. While many want to use the issue of executive power as a political party football, the more important issue is theerosion of the Constitution.” I do not reference specific political parties in my replies for a very good reason. The problems we have within our governments have been brewing for many years. Both political parties are responsible for the current sad state of affairs. You are highly vocal as to what you perceive is the cause of current government problems. Unfortunately you are so polarized that you appear to be no less intractable than the GOP that you vilify. Do you understand that without compromise there is no solution to the ills we the people have been burdened by our corrupted governments? Are you willing to step off your soap box, roll up your sleeves and help fix the mess we all are in? This means working with all kinds of fellow citizens, including those that believe differently than you. I really doubt it. I have, however, done this. My group took on an abusive local government and ended up getting the state constitution amended. You have cited stats and examples of misdeeds ad nauseum. Anyone that has read more than zero of your posts knows your strong biases and lopsided opinions. So give it a rest and start working on the solution.

          5. Independent1 November 23, 2014

            All of your diatribes are pure HOGWASH!! The distinction between laws and regulations is pure semantics. Presidential Executive Orders carry exactly the same weight as laws created by Congress. Suggesting that they’re not the same is pure nonsense.

            Try going to any one of the Auto manufacturers and telling them they don’t have follow the mpg guidelines dictated the past couple years by the EPA because they’re only regulations from the Executive Branch and not laws – They’ll look at you like some kind of idiot!!

            Try going to a couple of Coal Fired power plants and telling them they don’t really have to conform to the EPA’s dictates on the carbon control limits recently announced because they’re only “regulations” and not Laws. They’ll look at you like you’re crazy too – because you are.

            Are you even aware clueless that Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation which freed the slaves was the equivalent of an Executive Order??

            Congress never enacted freeing the slaves – that was purely done by Lincoln.

            And are you even aware that FDR used an Executive Order to create the WPA back in the 1930s – and even used an EO to fund it!! The WPA was the equivalent of ‘A LAW’ that allowed towns and cities across the nation to hire millions of Americans to work and projects that were needed to repair America’s infrastructure during the Depression in an effort to reduce the 20% plus unemployment rate.

            Yes, back then presidents could create Executive Branch Departments, and actually provide the funding for them without Congress doing a thing!!

            And the departments they created were created by just a powerful A LAW as anything Congress could edict!!!! It wasn’t until Crooked Dick Nixon started abusing his powers in the 1970s and Congress became concerned he was going to use his powers to excess and created what’s now the Office of Budget and Management – preventing presidents after him from being able to solicit funds on their own from the treasury; which is most likely why Obama didn’t follow in FDR’s footsteps and create an equivalent to the WPA to get around Congress and start working on our country’s crumbling infrastructure.

            I’ll guarantee you any “regulations” passed down to Americans, including corporations from the EPA which was created by Nixon via an Executive Order, or from the Energy Department which was created by Carter via an Executive order carry every bit as much weight as any law that the idiots in Congress can put together.

            You know about as much about the constitution as the rest of your RWNJ wackos – which is Absolutely Nothing!!

            See this (note the 2nd sentence: Executive orders have THE FULL FORCE OF LAW:

            United States Presidents issue executive orders to help officers and agencies of the executive branch manage the operations within the federal government itself. Executive orders have the full force of law[1] when they take authority from a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution, or are made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress that explicitly delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation). Like both legislative statutes and regulations promulgated by government agencies, executive orders are subject to judicial review, and may be struck down if deemed by the courts to be unsupported by statute or the Constitution. Major policy initiatives usually require approval by the legislative branch, but executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree laws will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging war, and in general fine-tuning policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes.

          6. Fishy Fishy November 23, 2014

            I surmise that my “corrupt little cronies” are—big bad capitalists. I do not approve of capitalists that rob shareholders, employees and the tax man of what is rightfully is theirs. Yet alternatives to capitalism as well as capitalism have no reliable remedy for the major pitfall that cause most problems–dishonest, unethical and immoral humans. It matters not what political party, religion or ethnic group are running the show. Rag on all you want about the evil GOP. It only provides amusing fodder for these chatty comment threads. I have yet to hear what you are doing to make things better.

          7. Independent1 November 24, 2014

            Suggesting that getting all malfeasance out of politics is really something that would ever be attainable is an exercise in idiocy – it’s never going to happen. In addition, no one on this thread has ever made the comment that Democrats are saints; but trying to suggest that the malfeasance created by Democrats and Republicans is even remotely close to equal – is also an exercise in idiocy.

            Republicans aka the GOP, have taken political malfeasance to a degree previously never seen ever since Nixon was in office that has done nothing but escalate to the point that today – the GOP and the Italian Mafia are on a par. The only difference is that the Italian Mafia is more honest – they at least admit their crooks whereas GOP legislators and presidents hide behind politics a pathological lying as they’re doing everything they can to steal the American taxpayers of every cent they can filch.

            The majority of today’s problems began with Nixon and really escalated with Reagan, who was without question the most devious person to ever sit in the Oval Office – even far worse than Nixon. Reagan constantly played both ends toward the middle and was not beyond dealing with terrorists, and creating all kinds of shaddy deals under the table – like negotiating with the Iranians so they would continue to hold the Americans hostage until he had successfully won the presidency. And even supporting Saddam Hussein in using chemical weapons against Iran during their war. (We all remember Iran/Contra right?)

            And add to all that another outright corrupt individual named Newt Gingrich who’s ego is unlimited and willingness to do virtually anything even if it’s illegal, and you can see clearly why our politics has devolved into the gutter.

            Getting a large portion of Republicans out of office would be a start, and if that can be done, then it would be possible to assess the Democrats. But right now, Republicans are so corrupting our political process that some of their malfeasance is rubbing off on some Democrats. Hopefully if the Republicans can be voted out, it would be possible then to weed out the worst of the Democrats too.

          8. NoodleDogg #1 November 23, 2014

            To allow one person, such as the President, to unilaterally determine if a law is valid or to actually author laws by devious means such as excecutive orders, regulations etc. violates the Constitution. The President can veto a law passed by the Congress, but Congress can override the veto. The Supreme Court can join the melee by deciding if the law complies with the Constitution. With the tripartite system, it was thought by the authors that the Constitution would not be gutted by one partite of the government running out of control.

          9. Eleanore Whitaker November 23, 2014

            I see…so if a president of Halliburton, makes rules in your contrarian view, they don’t have to be followed? What the hell is the purpose of defining the title President then?

            You only prove just how destructive men like you really are. You’d love nothing better than to reduce this and ONLY this president to a trash collector with zero authority.

            The president has AUTHORITY…got that? AUTHORITY…. That’s why he’s called “Mr. President.” Time to get over your petty BS.

          10. Fishy Fishy November 23, 2014

            Goodness gracious, Ellie, of course the President has authority, and responsibilities and one tough job. But he is still limited by the Constitution. It matters not how strongly he personally feels about something; he still has to play by the rules. You need to read the Constitution. If you can’t understand what it says and means, research it. A good start would be the Federalist papers.

          11. Eleanore Whitaker November 23, 2014

            Interesting reinvention of the government partitions. When Roe vs. Wade was passed by Congress, the same narrow minds then who still fight to get their way brought it before the Supreme Court. Was it repealed Mr. Know it All?

            Congress can override the president’s veto ONLY if Congress can get 62% of the vote to override. That’s why the ACA cannot be overridden by Congress. There are at least 3 GOP Senators who won’t vote for nullification nor repeal.

            The abuse of power was the highlight of the previous administration. Were you questioned as to whether you’d have approved Halliburton and Blackwater receiving NO BID contracts for a war in Iraq that had yet to begin?

            The only ones today who want to override the Executive branch of government are the same ones who have consistently proven their back room agenda: The GOP.

            The GOP only rages, rants and screams about abuse of power by the Executive branch when a Democrat is in the White House.

            As I recall in a public statement by George W. Bush back in January 2005 in his SOTU speech, “I intend to spend MY political capital.” And boy oh boy did HE and Cheney EVER…he spent hell out of our tax dollars handing out 3 tax cuts that the GAO reported 2 times enrich only the 1% by 11% with each tax cut. He spent hell out of US jobs until 8 million were unemployed. He spent hell out of military and defense tax dollars for a war that only profited his cronies and Halliburton who earned according to present GAO records $350 billion from Iraq alone.

            Sorry, if the truth hurts. It only hurts those who deny it the most.

            The wrongful “revenge” tactic of the GOP’s threat to withhold tax funding for the bills already passed by Congress (both GOP and Dems) is abuse of power that proves House overreach. The only reason for the House overreach is the idea of the GOP that since the Speaker of the House is third in line to the presidency, the speaker is somehow more powerful than the sitting president. That’s ego. Not the GOP House using our tax dollars for the greater good or doing their duties.

  22. Eleanore Whitaker November 22, 2014

    It’s actually kind of funny when you think about it. All those undocumented workers paid less than minimum wage will now have to be ON THE BOOKS. So whose doing the most complaining? Oklahoma and Texas who hire maids and yard workers, not to mention cheap oil and itinerant farm workers they pay less than minimum wages to.

    Figure it out for yourselves. If a head of lettuce in the US costs nearly $2 a head and these workers are not paid minimum wages, how is that not pure profits for the Agri-corporate CEOS?

    They want us to forget about the fights in the 60s and 70s to force these southern and midwestern agri-corporations to stop paying dirt wages to migrant workers. Did they stop? No. Now, 45 years later a president comes along who is fed up with GOP stalling and now the GOP thinks it’s entitled to outrage? When all they did was facilitate billions in profits for their cronies? Excuses, excuses, excuses…stall, stall, stall, profit, profit, profit…the GOP chickens are pecking at dirt.

  23. Chuck Itt November 29, 2014

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