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What Are Sanctuary Cities, Anyway?

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What Are Sanctuary Cities, Anyway?

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A worker labors on a housing project on Mission Street in the South of Market neighborhood in San Francisco, California April 29, 2014. REUTERS/Robert Galbraith

At Donald Trump’s immigration-themed rally Wednesday night, after he pledged to assemble a deportation force to eject two million people from the country within the first hour of his presidency, the Republican nominee said that in a Trump administration, he administration would move to “block funding for sanctuary cities… We will end the sanctuary cities that have resulted in so many needless deaths.”

So what is a sanctuary city, and are sanctuary cities less safe because of how they treat undocumented immigrants?

“Sanctuary city” generally refers to any locality which does not honor — or provides leeway to local law enforcement not to cooperate with — I-247s, or “requests for notification,” which notify the feds that there is an undocumented person in custody. Before that, sanctuary cities ignored federal detention orders, or “detainers,” to hand undocumented immigrants targeted for detention or deportation over to the federal government. There are other definitions of the term, and there are considerations of prior felonies and other things on a city-by-city basis, but this generally covers how Trump is using it.

There are around 200 towns, cities, and counties around the country that, if they arrest an undocumented immigrant, either do not investigate their immigration status, or do not cooperate with Immigration and Customs Enforcement efforts to deport an individual they know to be here without proper documentation.

Advocates for allowing localities this leeway say that it makes cities safer. They reason that undocumented immigrants are valuable members of their community, and to threaten them with deportation every time they are in contract with local police would have a harmful overall impact on crime, if people are discouraged from calling the police to report crimes and tips. They also say federal procedures regarding undocumented immigrants implicitly encourage racial profiling and restricted access to due process protections.

“A detainer is not a legal instrument,” then-San Francisco Police Chief Ross Mirkarimi said in an interview, soon after the shooting death of Kate Steinle by an undocumented immigrant in July 2015. “From a law enforcement perspective, we want to build trust with that population, and our sanctuary city and other attendant laws have allowed us to do that.”

Yesterday, responding to Donald Trump’s speech, Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Kaine said much the same. “I trust police chiefs in terms of knowing what should be done to keep their communities safer and police departments and mayors a lot more than I trust Donald Trump,” he told CNN’s New Day Thursday morning.

Are sanctuary cities more dangerous? There’s no proof of that — though there’s no proof of the opposite, either. As a Mother Jones‘ Josh Harkinson wrote last year, in the state of California, in which the state legislature and all but a few counties have enacted sanctuary city laws, 2014 homicide numbers were in line with decades-low crime numbers across the country. And first-generation immigrants in general are less likely to commit crimes than native-born Americans.

The term itself is a bit misleading, as well: Undocumented immigrants still serve time in custody in localities deemed sanctuary cities. They just aren’t handed over to the feds to be deported afterwards. And given the relatively small portion of the U.S. living here illegally — one third of one percent of the total population — and the fact that immigrants are less criminal on average, perhaps it shouldn’t be surprising that stories on sanctuary cities focus more on the outrage that term provokes than on crime statistics themselves.

Photo: A worker labors on a housing project on Mission Street in the South of Market neighborhood in San Francisco, California April 29, 2014. REUTERS/Robert Galbraith  

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159 Comments

  1. bobnstuff September 2, 2016

    States rights unless you don’t agree with us, That’s the new republican party. I also blame the media for taking one very rare event and making people think it’s common place. We may have been better off when you had half an hour of world new a day.

    Reply
    1. robrothman September 2, 2016

      Exactly. DT is appealing to the basest instincts, the lizard brains in our country. Same ability as Hitler had.

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    2. vdpphd September 4, 2016

      States have a few rights under the Constitution, but mostly responsibilities. Most law is State law. Federal law supersedes State law only in regard to the seventeen sovereign powers the Constitution grants to Congress, the two it grants to the President, and the one granted to the Article III courts. State law must comply with the Bill of Rights and the Civil War Amendments. Election law is mostly State law. Business and professions law is mostly State law. Insurance law is mostly State law. The driving privilege is granted by the State. Incorporation is under State law. Unemployment insurance and workers compensation are State run programs. Federal jurisdiction does not extend to anything that is not interstate commerce, except where specified in the Constitution (navigable waters, militias, immigration, etc.)

      Congress rules. Presidents make suggestions, carry out what is enacted, and prepare reports on the results. There is no use blaming the White House for any aspect of domestic policy, because Congress makes all domestic policy. The President does not make foreign policy alone, either, but requires the consent of the Senate on ambassadors and treaties and an Act of Congress in order to go to war.

      Federal authorities have no jurisdiction over local crime in the streets. In practice, even drug crime is defined by and prosecuted according to State law. If you are upset by some aspect of government, remember to take your issue to the level of government which has that jurisdiction. The US government is not actually a hierarchy, and is barely even a single entity rather than a gaggle of competing and countervailing independent powers. Most law, and most fixes to the law, are in your Statehouse, not in Washington.

      1. bobnstuff September 4, 2016

        Well said. Now listen the the RWNJ , they blame everything on the President, even cloudy days.

  2. Aaron_of_Portsmouth September 2, 2016

    One of numerous disturbing aspects of Trump and his goose-steppers is the recrudescence of his father’s homeland’s legacy of systematically rounding up “undesirables” who were deemed unfit and unwanted to reside in Germany. Russia and other European nations suffered a similar satanic tendencies—-tendencies that are second nature for Donald as though they’ve been transmitted to him and others like genetic material is conferred to future generations.

    We can “sterilize” Donald and others like him from transmitting this potential to transmit this genetic imprint by confining him to an institution as was done in the US during the 1st half of the 1900’s in our flirtation with a full-scale legally sanctioned Eugenics Program. Or, we can shield ourselves from the “eggs” which this bipedal parasite seeks to inject into the body-politic by taking appropriate educational, electoral, and spiritual counter-measures to prevent said “eggs” from hatching into more parasites.

    Confinement to an institution will require a qualified panel of professionals to render a report recommending that Donald be committed, which won’t happen soon enough given the allotted time.

    So, the alternative is to think wisely, rationally, and allow common-sense and decency to be in the ascendancy rather than rancor, hate, anger, and distemper that have become Donald’s signature characteristics.

    “O Son of Spirit! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly, and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty, ancient, imperishable, and everlasting.”

    Reply
    1. dpaano September 2, 2016

      You ROCK Aaron!!!

      1. Aaron_of_Portsmouth September 2, 2016

        You’re too kind. Thank you. I try and Trump is providing us ample opportunity to speak out.

  3. PatrickHenry September 2, 2016

    There had been a very good Federal Law called 287g, which Obama ended. This good program had Local, State & Federal Law Enforcement working together to detain and deport Illegals apprehended. Obama had released thousands of criminal Illegal “undocumented” aliens into our neighborhoods. Many have committed more serious crimes after they were released and many hide out, protected by sanctuary cities.

    Reply
    1. latebloomingrandma September 2, 2016

      That’s weird. I read that Obama has deported more illegals than Bush had.

      1. PatrickHenry September 2, 2016

        The answer is, not how many Obama had detained, but how many were actually removed. Besides this, the American economy was so bad that some Illegals left on their own. Many were also allowed entry Illegally & thousands of criminal Illegals were released into our society. This should very much concern you & your family.

        1. 788eddie September 2, 2016

          Patrick, you’re obfuscating again. If someone enters the country illegally, they are illegal; not necessarily criminal. If someone breaks a law in this country, committing a criminal act they are detained (if caught) while the determination of the consequences are made. If a judge determines that they are not a flight-risk, then they may be let out on bail awaiting trial. Don NOT fall into Double-Down Donnie’s “thousands of criminal Illegals were released into our society” vague allegation.

          BTW, I have talked to quite a few “Green & Whites” (Border Patrol) and they confirm your point that they see many people (assumed illegals) heading South regularly (they don’t stop them).

        2. KDJ54 September 2, 2016

          Obama removed more undocumented people than any other US president. See Washington Post April 21, 2014

        3. Independent1 September 4, 2016

          Where do you get all this hogwash?? “thousands of criminal Illegals were released into our society.”

          Apparently from being too much of a sheeple to the blatant lying propaganda of Faux News!! Better cut back on that propaganda – studies have shown that watching Faux News makes you dumber than not watching any news at all (basically because more than 75% of what Faux News broadcasts are lies). Like the comments you always post!!!!

          1. PatrickHenry September 6, 2016

            Sanctuary city policy gets funding yanked by federal government …
            http://www.washingtontimes.com/…/sanctuary-city-police-getting-fu...
            The Washington Times
            Jul 7, 2016 – Feds moving to strip money from U.S. sanctuary cities …. “any source” that delivers credible evidence that a jurisdiction is acting as a sanctuary.
            Evidence shows Denver is a sanctuary city, despite claims to the …
            watchdog.org › Watchdog Arena
            Watchdog.org
            Jul 24, 2015 – From not inquiring about legal status to not holding and reporting illegal immigrants to ICE; the evidence points to Denver being a sanctuary …

            Sanctuary city policy gets funding yanked by federal government …
            http://www.washingtontimes.com/…/sanctuary-city-police-getting-fu...
            The Washington Times
            Jul 7, 2016 – Feds moving to strip money from U.S. sanctuary cities …. “any source” that delivers credible evidence that a jurisdiction is acting as a sanctuary.
            Evidence shows Denver is a sanctuary city, despite claims to the …
            watchdog.org › Watchdog Arena
            Watchdog.org
            Jul 24, 2015 – From not inquiring about legal status to not holding and reporting illegal immigrants to ICE; the evidence points to Denver being a sanctuary …

          2. Independent1 September 6, 2016

            And guess whose pulling all that federal funding DUMMKOFF!! Paul Ryan and his outright corrupt and gangster driven GOP-controlled House of Representatives!!!

            What kind of idiot are you!! You’re trying to blame the Dems for the problems going in in Sanctuary cities AND IT’S THE GOP THAT ARE CREATING THE PROBLEMS BY CUTTING THE FUNDING AND HANDCUFFING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION FROM BEING ABLE TO DO ANYTHING!!!

            Did you even read any of the posts from blogger vpddhd who clearly has some knowledge on this issue WHO TRIED TO TELL YOU IT WAS THE GOP CONGRESS THAT IS CREATING THE IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS!!!

            WHERE IS YOUR HEAD!! TOO FAR UP YOUR REAREND TO SEE ANY LIGHT!!!!!!!!

            You need to join Kurt and stick your head in manure bucket.

          3. PatrickHenry September 7, 2016

            Here are some detailed positions on enforcing OUR immigration Laws, as well as the policies of all the Presidential candidates.

            1. Make E-Verify mandatory for all U.S. employers to eliminate the jobs magnet.
            2. Complete the Congressionally-mandated biometric entry/exit system to track non-immigrant visitors to the U.S.
            3. End the practice of birthright citizenship for illegal aliens and foreign visitors.
            4. Require state and local law enforcement to report affirmatively all non-citizens in custody to ICE, make ICE detainers mandatory, and require ICE to pick up and remove deportable aliens.
            5. Expand expedited removal to include all illegal aliens with criminal convictions.
            6. End catch-and-release of illegal aliens by requiring that they be detained until removal.
            7. Deny immigrant and nonimmigrant visas to nations that refuse to repatriate their citizens.
            8. Reform the judicial process in immigration courts, including restricting relief from removal, to expedite the process and reduce the backlog of cases.
            9. Restrict asylum to the internationally recognized definition of those who are unable to be returned to the home country due to a well-founded fear of (state) persecution due to race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.
            10. Allow Border Patrol access to all federal lands.

            http://hub.numbersusa.com/route/6/57bdfefa74e18a690699770e/1026999/9

    2. KDJ54 September 2, 2016

      First of all, President Obama did not end the law. It is still on the books. There has been a change in the focus of enforcement of the law during the second administration of President Obama. As an immigration attorney I was involved in the front lines of the enforcement of this law during the first four years of President Obama’s administration. Deportations during that time were far and above those of previous administrations. Unfortunately, it was mostly a disaster, as it separated families and disrupted communities for no good purpose. Too many people were detained for such innocuous offenses as driving without a driver’s license, even though they had a valid driver’s license from Mexico which should have been recognized. Eventually sanity was restored and individuals who committed real crimes were detained and removed from the United States on a regular basis. This policy continues even today. Trump supporters are just ignorant and do not choose to inform themselves of these facts. Simply put Trump is a bully and picks on people who cannot defend themselves by making ridiculous and vile claims about them.

      1. PatrickHenry September 2, 2016

        Let’s say he cut most funding from 287g & did NOT enforce it. You know this is true. Immigration attorneys are notoriously known to support Amnesty & the “rights” og ILLEGALS, instead of the Rights of American Citizens, which OUR Constitution was written for. Many of the Illegals “detained” were just released on their “promise” to appear in “court”. Trump isn’t a bully, ask thousands of people that know him, just enforcing Our Laws. Maybe he seems a bully to those violating OUR Laws though.

        1. KDJ54 September 2, 2016

          First of all, Pres. Obama cannot cut funding for any program. If you knew your constitution, like you profess to do, you would understand that only Congress can dictate whether the budget is funded or cut. Now the executive can determine how those resources are used, and that is what Pres. Obama did. Many of the people who were detained, if they had the ability to post bond would post bond and appear in court. After it was determined that detaining so many individuals and running them through the immigration court system was too burdensome and expensive, immigration went back to the system which they had used for decades, which was to issue an order to show cause for the individual to appear in court. In spite of what you may have heard, and I’m sure that you have heard all of the nonsense coming from the right wing media, most of these individuals appeared for their court hearings. In 25 years of doing this type of work I can count on one hand the number of people who did not appear for their court hearings, even though they had no chance of remaining in the country. As for Trump’s plan, unless he is going to change the current immigration laws, it is unworkable and stupid. Of those 11 million people, he wants to deport, you can bet that there will be a sizable portion, and I’m talking anywhere between 70 to 80 percent of them who will have a claim under the current immigration law to ask for what is referred to as cancellation of removal, amnesty or refugee status. Currently under our system most of those cases for non-detained individuals are being set out two to three years in the future. If there is a sudden influx of nearly 11,000,000 people, it will take decades for those cases to be adjudicated. Not to mention that there will be US citizens who will be caught in this dragnet who will have to produce documentation and work their way through the system. Add to that another significant portion of these individuals who may already be in the process of secure securing legal status in the United States who will also have to have their claims adjudicated after they are detained. Of course, Trump could always get Congress to change the law, but even under the current composition of the Congress that would be impossible. As to your charge that I support the rights of undocumented people, you are absolutely correct. Why? Because the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution applies to these individuals. In that, both Amendments to the Constitution guarantee people due process. What I love about conservatives such as yourself, is that you wrap yourselves in the Constitution and you know nothing about it. As for amnesty yes I’m for it and let me tell you why, through this little illustration. At the end of the Bush administration and into the Obama administration, the IRS started issuing what are referred to as “no match” letters. These letters went to employers and informed them that the individuals working for them had Social Security numbers which did not match with the individual named. Suddenly, there were dairy farmers with 10,000 cows to milk who realized that they were going to have to fire all their workers. You should have heard them whine. You probably had not heard about this program simply because it just plain faded away. You see I’m for amnesty, because I get a little irritated when people such as you support exploitation of workers, and some of these people have worked for farmers for decades. These employers have political influence but yet they only use it to protect their own hides and not to help their workers. Finally, the vast majority of these undocumented workers of which you love to complain, produce the food that you ate today and will eat tomorrow and that you will eat for the foreseeable future. I want you to just try and find some food that hasn’t been touched by undocumented hands unless it comes from your own garden. These people are hard-working men and women who are doing nothing more than supporting their families, they would make great Republicans, if the Republicans weren’t such jackasses.

          1. dpaano September 2, 2016

            Thank you…..I wish I could give you TWO upvotes and maybe more. This is the problem with the conservatives….they swear they know the Constitution, but they don’t. They have NO idea that the lies they are being told by Trump and his cohorts are just that…..lies. Trump has absolutely NO knowledge of the Constitution or how this country’s government works, but his followers believe everything that he says without a doubt! We can thank our Founding Fathers for the law of checks and balances! In the meantime, thank you for your work and thank you for your comment….I even learned a little bit more about how this works.

          2. Joan September 3, 2016

            Thank you for your service to the immigrant population, our judicial system and the US Constitution. While you covered it well, most of us remember when GA. cracked down on undocumented migrant workers and the result was crops rotting in the fields $140 million in agriculture loss to the state. Trump’s proposals would cost way to much, loss of productivity in the billions.

      2. David September 2, 2016

        What state were you licensed in? Tell your lying garbage to the parents of Kate Steinle.

        1. johninPCFL September 2, 2016

          How about the parents, brothers, sisters, and children of the 168 murdered folks in Oklahoma? Don’t the victims of local, home-grown terrorists rate the same outpouring of grief as the victims of the poster-child of the American taliban today?

          1. David September 2, 2016

            The subject is ‘sanctuary cities’. Having trouble with your reading comprehension?

          2. johninPCFL September 2, 2016

            You segued, hypocrite.

          3. David September 3, 2016

            Your transition wasn’t smooth.

        2. Aaron_of_Portsmouth September 2, 2016

          David, you’re letting your guts do your thinking for you. Give your brain a chance to express itself.

    3. dpaano September 2, 2016

      Trump said recently “We will restore the highly successful Secure Communities program. We will expand and revitalize the popular 287(g) partnerships, which will help identify hundreds of thousands of deportable aliens in local jails.” FACTS: These programs are both controversial and their efficacy has been questioned. The Secure Communities program failed to meet its goals and the 287(g) program was criticized for diverting local resources towards federal immigration enforcement and led to the politicized local involvement of Trump surrogate Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who was found to be racially profiling by federal authorities.”

    4. Joan September 3, 2016

      Please quantify “many” or is a Trumpism – ” people are saying”, ” I heard it”. Please give source for ” Obama had released thousands of criminal undocumented persons”. Even in a Sanctuary city , law enforcement does not turn a blind eye to outstanding Warrents against undocumented persons. How many, what% have committed more serious crimes? What is your source for statements that contradict other reporting from credible sources? Your post is all smoke, no substance without something verifiable.

  4. Jon September 2, 2016

    Like Hitler, Trump substitutes prejudice for fact. Hitler’s propaganda machine managed to frequently bury the truth by a barrage of lies appealing not to reason but to prejudice and emotion. Trump’s entire campaign has used Hitler’s strategy aided by the media to spread his bigotry and hatred. The truth is an obstacle to be overcome. Hitler succeeded. Trump is succeeding.

    Reply
    1. marlette782 September 6, 2016

      You want to find hate. Look to the ACLU they are full of hate for Christians. Funny how they don’t hold Muslims to the same Muslims to the same standard

      1. Jon September 6, 2016

        I would agree with you but then we’d both be wrong. As a Christian and ACLU member, I can assure that Christianity is not hated by the ACLU. Some hate groups clam to be good Christians but practice a branch of Christianity that preaches hatred of those who look, act, speak, and believe differently. If you read the1st Amendment and case law interpreting it, you will find that the ACLU is following a proud tradition of ensuring that all of us, no matter our religious preference, enjoy equality under the law.

  5. dpaano September 2, 2016

    Agreed….we have quite a few sanctuary cities here in California, and the crime rates on most of those cities is extremely low. Yes, people are arrested if they do wrong….they sometimes even go to jail….but we don’t turn them over to be deported. It seems to work for us, but not sure why the rest of this country has a big problem with it!

    Reply
    1. David September 2, 2016

      Because they are violating the law! I’m sure that you, during your many years of law practice, understand the concept that we “are a nation of laws”, don’t you?

      1. Aaron_of_Portsmouth September 2, 2016

        Yeah, tell that to the descendants of the victims of lynch mobs, witch hunts, and those whose homes and businesses being burned to the ground in what was called “Black Wall Street” in Tulsa, OK. You talk a brave game of law yet you show a profound ignorance of when the “nation of laws” took long lunch breaks for lynching, killing, raping, and maiming, while the law usually looked the other way.

        Will you ever learn to be fair in your assessment of events in America? Educate yourself of America’s contradictions before boldly asserting a generality or talk about law and order.

        “O Son of Spirit! The best beloved of all things in My sight is justice. Turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee, By its aid, thou shalt see with thine own eyes, and through the eyes of others. Shall know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thine heart how it behooveth thee to be. Verily, justice is my gift to thee and a sign of My loving kindness. Set it them before thine eyes.”

        (From “The Hidden Words” of Baha’u’llah, [epigram #2 from the Arabic section] ).

        1. David September 3, 2016

          June, 1921. Almost a hundred years ago. This is what you have? Ha! Black President (two terms) two black attorney generals. Sounds like pretty severe oppression.

          1. Aaron_of_Portsmouth September 3, 2016

            David, since you are unwilling to be sensible it matters little how much logic and reason is presented to you. Your vision is totally clouded by a blind rage, an uncontrollable sense of hate, and generally an anti-Christ attitude—much like Trump’s attitude and that of many faux Christians of the Right.

          2. David September 3, 2016

            Please go back to one of your “sharia zones” in London. Your ilk wouldn’t have a clue who Jesus is.

          3. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            As spoken by a worshiper of the Devil’s party – a truly fake Christian of the right-wing. Talk about knowing nothing about what Jesus tried to teach us – someone who loves money above all else – YOU!!

          4. David September 3, 2016

            Coming from a Demorat whose party booed the name “Jesus” at their National Convention! Oh, I guess you forgot about that. ES and D you pitiful POS.

          5. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            One of the great things about America is that it guarantees its people the right to worship a god or not worship a god. As should be the case, the Democrat party is made of all types of Americans including atheists. So a bunch of a atheists were at the Democrat convention doing what atheists do – they booed because they did not want a political party which is supposed to apply its support to all Americans to include in its platform something they don’t believe in – they don’t believe in Jesus or that there’s a god.

            And despite your moronic comment THAT’S EXACTLY THE WAY THINGS SHOULD BE IN AMERICA – NOT LIKE THE GOP THAT TRIES TO DICTATE WHICH GOD PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO WORSHIP!!

            IF ANY PEOPLE ARE UNLIKE CHRISTIANITY TODAY – IT IS REPUBLICANS WHO CLEARLY WORSHIP MONEY ABOVE EVEN OTHER PEOPLE’S LIVES!! THEY DO IT EVERY DAY –
            GOP IDEOLOGIES ARE KILLING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE EVERY MONTH!!!

            JUST BY REFUSING TO EXPAND MEDICAID REPUBLICANS ARE KILLING HUNDREDS TO THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS EVERY MONTH!! HOW IS THAT IRIGHT IN YOUR CLEARLY MENTALLY WARPED ANTI-CHRISTIAN MIND?????

            If there was ever a fake Christian IT IS YOU!!!!!!

            (And GOP politicians know that not expanding Medicaid is going to result in people dying BUT THEY STILL DO IT!! HOW IS THAT BEING CHRISTIAN!!!!!!!)

          6. David September 3, 2016

            Read Mathew 10:32 and 10:33. Google it. I know you don’t own a Bible.

          7. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            But you fake Christians fail to realize that there is a caveat to Jesus acknowledging you to His Father; the cavet is: In addition to acknowledging that you believe in Jesus YOU ALSO HAVE TO DO THE WILL OF HIS FATHER!1

            And that’s where you fake Christians always fail: the primary caveat of His Father is that: YOU CANNOT LOVE GOD AND MAMMON (money and worldly things).

            And that’s where you fake Christians fail: if the GOP is about anything, IT IS ABOUT MONEY!!

            Republican politicians NEVER ACTUALLY CLAIM TO DO ANYTHING FOR THE POOR AND THE NEEDY!! EVEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD TO CALL PAUL RYAN OUT ON HIS TOTALLY CORRUPT BUDGETS THAT SCREW THE POOR JUST TO FEED THE RICH!!

            How can you be so totally clueless and think you’re even remotely Christian when you support a political party that is clearly for the rich at the expense of the poor and needy??

            Where in the world is your head?? Up your rear end!!!!!

          8. David September 3, 2016

            Didn’t address the problem of booing Jesus’ name. But, of course you can’t justify that. Go find a safe place you atheist bunghole.

          9. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            You don’t comprehend too well?? I addressed the booing Jesus first thing. Here it is from my first response:

            “One of the great things about America is that it guarantees its people the right to worship a god or not worship a god. As should be the case, the Democrat party is made of all types of Americans including atheists. So a bunch of a atheists were at the Democrat convention doing what atheists do – they booed because they did not want a political party which is supposed to apply its support to all Americans to include in its platform something they don’t believe in – they don’t believe in Jesus or that there’s a god.

            And despite your moronic comment THAT’S EXACTLY THE WAY THINGS SHOULD BE IN AMERICA – NOT LIKE THE GOP THAT TRIES TO DICTATE WHICH GOD PEOPLE
            ARE SUPPOSED TO WORSHIP!!”

            And despite what you think lowlife POLITICAL PARTIES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO CREATE PLATFORMS THAT RELATE TO A SPECIFIC RELIGION!!! AMERICA IS NOT A THEOCRACY!!! WHEN ARE YOU RIGHT-WINGERS GOING TO GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!!!

          10. David September 3, 2016

            I find atheists like you to be humorous — but, still disgusting. Go worship your Queen Hildebeast. She doesn’t believe in lots of money. Neither does Billy.

          11. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            And just in case you doubted my comment about Money is the root of all evil.

            Here’s the verse from St. Paul’s first letter to Timothy where he passes that along to Timothy as he starts out in the ministry:

            1 Timothy 6:10

            For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

            And note that St. Paul even covers your and the GOPs situation – you have all WANDERED FROM THE FAITH BECAUSE OF MONEY!!!!!

          12. David September 3, 2016

            Not the root of ALL evil. You need to learn to read.

          13. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            So he added the word ‘KINDS’ – root of all kinds of evil!!!!!

            I was quoting ST. Paul from memory dummy. I’m sitting here with 3 bibles within arms reach; two of them King James versions and one an NIV (New International Version). I read the bible more times a week than you have in your lifetime!!!!

          14. David September 3, 2016

            POS liar. It is “Bible”, not “bible”. But, what else would you expect from an ignorant atheist?

          15. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            And here’s from Matthew where it makes it clear that you and the GOP are worshiping the Devil because of your love of money:

            Matthew 6 vs 24

            24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

          16. David September 3, 2016

            Hey DS, that wasn’t Matthew who said that. It was that guy you booed.

          17. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            It was some atheists who are also Democrats who booed Jesus at the convention – sorry LOWLIFE but that’s got nothing to do with me. I am not even a Democrat – I voted for Eisenhower, I voted for Ford, I voted for Bush 1 all for president!!!!!!!! I have several medals in my drawer for all the campaigning I did for Bush 1 the first time he ran that his campaign sent me.

            But in addition to being an Independent I AM NOT STUPID LIKE YOU AND THE MAJORITY OF YOU TOTALLY MISGUIDED RIGHT-WINGERS OF TODAY WHO ARE SO BLIND YOU CAN’T SEE TODAY’S GOP IS TRYING TO DESTROY OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!

          18. David September 3, 2016

            There is a difference between “ALL” evil and “ALL KINDS” of evil. I am not surprised that you are having difficulty. It’s kind of like you saying Trump should be imprisoned for him (and his corporations) being sued. But, can’t cite any penal statute — Federalor State.

          19. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            I didn’t say he should be imprisoned because he’s being sued, I said he should be imprisoned because he’s clearly committed fraud numerous times by not following through on what he’s promised to do.

            Time and time again he has left not only investors, but workers and other companies and even his lawyers holding the bag. Hundreds of people that he’s promised to pay for doing work for him, who he has then refused to pay. From where I sit that’s no different than committing fraud. He promised to produce something ( money if you will) in exchange for a service and then reneged on the promise. For that, he should be in jail – time and time again.

            What Trump has done repeatedly, is no different than a fraudulent contractor promising to fix your driveway or whatever, and then after you pay him, running off on you and not following through on the promise.

            And don’t give me any stories about judges can’t be bought – because it’s not coincidence that little rich boys who commit crimes including murder and rape, get off with very light sentences when people on the poorer side would be sent to prison and even executed.

            So I don’t even want to hear about you claiming that Trump couldn’t have bought out judges in many of the lawsuits that have been brought against him!!!

          20. David September 3, 2016

            Read what the definition of “fraud” is DA. And, then read again what you said. By the way, what judges did he bribe?

          21. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            Sorry, I couldn’t care less what the official definition of fraud is. Trump is a total fraud in every shape and form!!!

          22. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            Okay, clueless – here goes on fraud:

            1. fraud definition, meaning, what is fraud: the crime of getting money by deceiving people.

            2. The definition of fraud is something said or done in a dishonest way to trick people.

            3. Fraud definition, deceit, trickery, sharp practice,
            or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage

            4. Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity.

            Four definitions of fraud ALL OF WHICH NOT ONLY FIT WHAT I DESCRIBED, BUT WHICH FIT TRUMP TO A ‘T’.

            If you actually believe Trump would do any of the things he’s claiming he will do while campaigning, should he be elected president, YOU ARE THE BIGGEST FOOL ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH!!

            If Trump gets elected, every promise he’s made during campaigning will be forgotten, and Trump will do whatever HE THINKS will make him the most money WHATEVER DEVIOUS THING THAT IS!!!!!!!!!

            And why do I say that BECAUSE THAT’S EXACTLY THE WAY TRUMP HAS ACTED OVER THE PAST 70 YEARS OF HIS LIFE AS HE HAS SCREWED ONE PERSON AFTER ANOTHER OUT OF AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!

          23. David September 4, 2016

            Close…it is an “intentional misrepresentation of a material fact with intent that a victim rely on the misrepresentation and the victim relies upon it to his detriment.” So, DS, what is the “fraud” you are complaining of? And, what about those judges? Who were they again?

          24. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            Sorry David – but those definitions of fraud ARE TRUE DEFINITIONS OF FRAUD FROM 4 DIFFERENT ON-LINE DICTIONARIES!!

            And what I described Trump doing also fits your definition TO A ‘T’ AND IF YOU CAN’T SEE THAT YOUR DUMBER THAN A ROCK!! GOT STICK YOUR HEAD IN A BUCKET OF COW DUNG!! WORTHLESS!!!!!!!

          25. David September 4, 2016

            As an attorney, I KNOW how the Courts define “fraud”. Again, specifically, what is it that you say constitutes Trump committing fraud? Hmmm…still no reply to my question on what judges he bribed either. And, let’s not forget your inability to cite a Federal or State statute which makes it a criminal offense to be sued “many times”. Gosh, kind of embarrassing for you isn’t it? Well, don’t feel too bad. You are right there with the rest of the Demorat ‘useful idiots’.

          26. David September 5, 2016

            Sorry, but as an attorney I KNOW how courts define “fraud”. Specifically, what has Trump done or said that causes you to feel he has committed fraud?
            By the way, no reply to my questions to you on:
            1. Federal/State statute Trump is in violation of for being sued too many times; and,
            2. Names of the judges he bribed.
            We both know you can’t answer these questions. So, it looks like you have been proven to be a liar. And, a mentally challenged one as well.

          27. Independent1 September 5, 2016

            If you’re an attorney, you’re not only the most clueless attorney I’ve ever encountered, but also one who apparently has little to do given the amount of time you’re posting on the NM. Having been retired for almost 20 years, I have an excuse to be here – what is yours?? You’re too clueless as an attorney to attract many if any clients???

            And I couldn’t care less what the ‘legal definition’ of fraud is; whether idiot courts see it or not, it’s quite clear that Trump and his henchmen have outright conned numerous investors and virtually everyone they deal with out of millions upon millions of dollars!!! You can be totally stupid as you are and call it what you like – BUT EVERYTHING TRUMP DOES IS OUTRIGHT CROOKED!!!!!!!

          28. David September 5, 2016

            I am retired also. 34 years of practice was enough. Answer the questions:
            1. What has Trump done/said which constitute fraud?
            2. What Federal/State criminal statute has Trump violated?
            3. What judges has he bribed?
            You can’t answer can you? From now on, if I run in to any of your groundless beatings, I will remind you of your failing.
            Have a great evening!

          29. Independent1 September 5, 2016

            I’m not accusing any particular judges or identifying any particular cases. But you can spew BS all you want, you are never going to convince me that Trump who has been sued by literally thousands of people in thousands of cases and has come out totally unscathed – that in that process Trump or his organization hasn’t slipped money under the table to some judges along the way to give him the benefit of the doubt.

            I’m sorry, too many people in this country are swayed by money these days. And you’re never going to convince me either that the 5 SCOTUS judges who concocted the nonsensical Citizens United BS that virtually any Constitutional lawyer will swear is a a total fabrication, didn’t get swayed by money from Adelson or the Kochs or someone else. You can preach all you want and it just isn’t going to happen.

            And I can even post for you case after case from the internet of rich kid vs poor kid with almost the exact same case scenarios; and the rich kid gets off with a light sentence while the poor kid, especially if he’s black, will end up with sentences that last for years!! That ain’t all happening just because judges are biased dummkopf, it’s happening because the rich kid’s parents paid the judge under the table.!! Sorry, but many in the legal profession are not immune to being bribed!!

          30. David September 6, 2016

            Okay. This is what you are now left with: Instead of naming judges you claim Trump has bribed, you cite a Washington Post article alleging that a Trump organization gave 25k to the Florida Attorney General’s reelection fund and thus bought her not pursuing criminal charges. Where are the judge’s names? What cases do allege that bribery influenced? You can’t name one. You are a liar. And, an ignorant one as well.
            What specific act did Trump commit that constitutes fraud?

          31. Independent1 September 5, 2016

            And as an attorney, you should be interested in this from the editors of the Washington Post who say that Donald Trump is intentionally trying TO MAKE CHUMPS out of all Americans – even people like you!!

            Donald Trump’s bet: We are all chumps

            By Editorial Board September 4 at 7:43 PM

            AS THE presidential campaign enters its final stretch, this seems like a good time to ask: Will American voters allow themselves to be insulted, taken for granted and made fools of?

            Donald Trump seems to be betting that the answer is yes. How else to judge his assumption that he can be elected without sharing basic information? He has released no meaningful health records. He has put forward virtually no serious policy proposals. Unlike every other major-party nominee of the modern era, he refuses to release his tax forms.

            All of these would be essential reading material from any candidate, but the need for disclosure is especially urgent from Mr. Trump. He would be the oldest president ever elected, so his medical history is relevant. Unlike Hillary Clinton and, again, every other modern major-party candidate, hehas no record of service in politics or public office by which he can be judged, so his policy intentions take on added significance. He has been on so many sides of so many issues that even serious position papers at this point would have limited credibility. But they would be better than nothing.

            Because his claim to the presidency is founded on his claimed success as a businessman, his tax and financial records are particularly salient. Has he really made as much money as he
            boasts? Has he paid taxes? Has he sheltered money in the Cayman Islands, done deals with Russian oligarchs? Who knows? Not the voters — and, as far as Mr. Trump is concerned, there is no need for us to bother our little heads with such matters. As his son Eric said,“You would have a bunch of people who know nothing about taxes” — he means us dumb voters, in case you miss the reference — “trying to look through and trying to come up with assumptions they know nothing about.”

            Ms. Clinton is not always a paragon of candor. But she has released far more information about her health; far, far more information on her policy goals; and decades of tax returns.

            And here’s one more reason those tax returns matter so much: A taxpayer must attest to the truthfulness of his or her returns, whereas we know that Mr. Trump in many other arenas tells falsehoods. In a book, he boasts of his habit of “truthful hyperbole.” On the campaign trail, he repeatedly lies — Muslims celebrated in New Jersey after 9/11, Mr. Trump did not mock a reporter’s disability — and when confronted with contrary video or documentary evidence simply repeats his fiction. Post reporter David A. Fahrenthold has painstakingly exposed Mr. Trump’s falsehoods when it comes to charitable giving.

            What else is he lying about? We don’t know, you don’t know, and Mr. Trump seems to believe we can all live with that. Can we? It’s a question Americans will have to answer on Election Day.

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trumps-candidacy-is-one-giant-insult-to-the-american-electorate/2016/09/04/d3f039b4-7135-11e6-8533-6b0b0ded0253_story.html?utm_term=.42e057298126&wpisrc=nl_opinions&wpmm=1

          32. Independent1 September 6, 2016

            Just a couple examples:

            During the primary debates, Donald Trump repeatedly boasted that he knows how to get politicians to do his bidding, explaining that he donated to both Republicans and Democrats, just in case he needed a favor. “You know what? When I need something from them, two years later, three years later, I call them, and they are there for me,” he said. “And that’s a broken system.”

            Yet now that Trump is facing questions about whether his
            improper $25,000 donation to a group connected to Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi prompted her to drop a potential fraud investigation against Trump University, he’s suggesting that he wasn’t actually very ood at working the system – and contradicting Bondi herself.

            If it looks like a bribe and quacks like a bribe, I think it’s a bribe,” a lawyer who filed an ethics complaint against Bondi told the Orlando Sentinel in June.

            Should that quacking sound outrage the public? Among the press, the Washington Post’s David Fahrenthold has been mostly alone in chasing it. (He’s also found “no evidence” that any of Trump’s money has gone into the charitable foundation that bears his name. And that Trump has a long history of very publicly promising personal charitable gifts and then either not following through at all or getting someone else to pay up for him.)

            http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/9/6/1567178/-Abbreviated-pundit-roundup-The-Trump-Bondi-bribery-scandal?detail=email&link_id=2&can_id=a411792ec3538dd9b3c310bcf6fda8aa&source=email-donald-trump-changed-his-immigration-speechbecause-a-tweet-made-him-mad-2&email_referrer=donald-trump-changed-his-immigration-speechbecause-a-tweet-made-him-mad-2&email_subject=donald-trump-changed-his-immigration-speech-because-a-tweet-made-him-mad

            And the above goes for judges.

          33. Independent1 September 5, 2016

            And if you’re really an attorney, you should give great though to this article printed today in the Washington Post by its editorial board. Not a bunch of chumps, but the Editors of the Post:

            Donald Trump’s bet: We are all chumps

            AS THE presidential campaign enters its final stretch, this seems like a good time to ask: Will American voters allow
            themselves to be insulted, taken for granted and made fools of?

            DonaldTrump seems to be betting that the answer is yes. How else to judge his assumption that he can be elected without sharing basic information? Hehas released no meaningful health records. He has put forward virtually
            no serious policy proposals. Unlike every other major-party nominee of the modern era, he refuses to release his tax forms.

            All of these would be essential reading material from any candidate, but the need for disclosure is especially urgent from Mr. Trump. He would be the oldest president ever elected, so his medical history is relevant. Unlike Hillary Clinton and, again, every other modern major-party candidate, he has no record of service in politics or public office by which he can be judged, so his policy intentions take on added significance. He has been on so many sides of so many issues that even serious position papers at this point would have limited credibility. But they would be
            better than nothing.

            Because his claim to the presidency is founded on his claimed success as a businessman, his tax and financial
            records are particularly salient. Has he really made as much money as he boasts? Has he paid taxes? Has he sheltered money in the Cayman slands, done deals with Russian oligarchs? Who knows? Not the voters — and, as far as Mr. Trump is concerned, there is no need for us to bother our little heads with such matters. As his son Eric said, “You would have a bunch of people who know nothing about taxes” — he means us dumb voters, in case you miss the reference — “trying to look through and trying to come up with assumptions they know nothing about.”

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trumps-candidacy-is-one-giant-insult-to-the-american-electorate/2016/09/04/d3f039b4-7135-11e6-8533-6b0b0ded0253_story.html?utm_term=.42e057298126&wpisrc=nl_opinions&wpmm=1

          34. David September 3, 2016

            Paul didn’t say “the route (sic) of all evil is money.” Try again, atheist idiot. You can read can’t you?

          35. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            What in the world are you talking about?? Paul said the Love of money is the root of all kinds of evil (loving money will cause people to do all kinds of evil things) and I said in one of my posts that’s what you and the GOP are all about – YOU LOVE MONEY MORE THAN EVEN OTHER PEOPLES’ LIVES!!!!!!!

          36. David September 3, 2016

            Hmmm….and guess what cities have the highest murder rates DS?

          37. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            The vast majority are in red states. Despite the murders in Chicago, Chicago has a lower murder rate than St. Louis, Houston and Memphis!!!!!!

          38. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            And the reason the murder rate is high in Chicago, is because of Gary, Indiana where any hoodlum can run to in 45 minutes to get a gun with no questions asked in 10 minutes and be back to shoot someone. Because the GOP idiots running Indiana have allowed the state to operate with virtually no gun control laws and for people to sell guns with virtually no questions asked!!!!!!!!

            I say all that because a reporter for a local news station did just that in Indiana – went out to buy a gun, an AR15 and was able to purchase one in less than 15 minutes and no one questioned what she wanted it for!!!!!!

          39. David September 3, 2016

            Wrong again, DA. Dealers submit the info on prospective buyers to the ATF for a background check.

          40. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            More total BS!! That’s only for guns bought from a federally licensed dealer. And there are tons of private citizens and others that aren’t federally licensed who are selling guns, especially in virtually gun control free states like Indiana.

          41. David September 3, 2016

            Well DS…you are the one who said the brothers are driving from Chicago to Gary to buy firearms. Guess they are buying them from Leroy and not from Cabelas.

          42. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            I didn’t say anything about brothers, I said any hoodlum could run to Gary Indiana which is less than a 30 minute drive from Chicago and get any gun they want.

            And here’s a couple articles that prove your background check comment is pure BS!!

            From governing.com:

            Known as the “gun show loophole,” most states do not require background checks for firearms purchased at gun shows from private individuals — federal law only requires licensed dealers to conduct checks.

            Under the Gun Control Act of 1968, federal law clearly defined
            private sellers as anyone who sold no more than four firearms per year. But the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act lifted that restriction and loosely defined private sellers as people who do not rely on gun sales as the principal way of obtaining their livelihood.

            Some states have opted to go further than federal law by requiring background checks at gun shows for any gun transaction, federal license or not. The majority of these such states require background checks at the point of transfer for all firearms. Alternatively, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, New Jersey and North Carolina regulate purchases by prohibiting private dealers from selling to individuals who do not have licenses/permits, which they obtain following background checks. Some states’ requirements are limited only to handgun purchases.

            http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html

            And this from CBS New (from 2014)

            FBI: 512 gun sales a day slipped through checks last year

            BRIDGEPORT, W.Va. — More gun sales than ever are slipping through the federal background check system – 186,000 last year, a rate of 512 gun sales a day, as states fail to consistently provide thorough, real-time updates on criminal and mental histories to
            the FBI.

            At no time of year is this problem more urgent. This Friday opens the busiest season for gun purchases, when requests for background checks speed up to nearly two a second, testing the limits of the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS.

            The stakes are high: In the U.S., there are already nine guns for every 10 people, and someone is killed with a firearm every 16 minutes. Mass shootings are happening every few weeks.

            “We have a perfect storm coming,” FBI manager Kimberly Del Greco told The Associated Press during a rare glimpse into the inner workings of the system. Much of the
            responsibility for preventing criminals and the mentally ill from
            buying guns is shouldered by about 500 men and women who run the system from inside the FBI’s criminal justice center, a gray office building with concrete walls and mirrored windows just outside Bridgeport, West Virginia.

            http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-512-gun-sales-a-day-slipped-through-checks-last-year/

          43. David September 3, 2016

            So, the hoodlums aren’t buying the firearms in Gary from dealers. They are getting them at gun shows? Lol. There is no background check required when the sale is from a private seller. You apparently are horrified by this. Okay, DS, how many crimes have been committed by individuals who obtained their firearm from a private sale with no background check? Google it and cry. Being an atheist is bad enough. But, being a stupid atheist is even worse. What about those Federal and State laws you were going to cite? What about the names of those judges Trump bribed?

          44. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            Actually, anyone who sells six guns in any year is required to obtain a federal firearms license, and can be fined and imprisoned if they do not. Federal firearms dealers are required to fill out a form that the buyer must sign, and transmit that to BATFE for “gun release.” Those who are not firearms dealers are not able to access that database, but those who sell guns for a living are required to become licensed dealers. The “loophole” consists of those illegal dealers who sell in numbers but do not get licenses, mostly operating out of parking lots at gun shows, the ATF guys usually policing gun shows inside, not outside. A few thousand more ATF agents could simply watch these transactions covertly and arrest the violators at the scene. The law and authority exist; money for the manpower has not been appropriated!

          45. vdpphd September 4, 2016

            The reason crime is high in inner cities is that crime pays in the short run and work does not. The source of money is mostly drugs. The drug money pays for the guns. In the absence of drug laws Chicago criminals would be reduced to theft and extortion, and would be unable to afford the guns they now buy in Indiana, where municipal gun laws are more lax than in Chicago. Federal gun law is the same, and felons, drug addicts, mental cases and spouse abusers are barred by law from touching a gun, or living in a house with one, much less owning or using one. However, only the US BATF is allowed to enforce gun laws, and they are grossly underfunded as well as seriously mismanaged. In other words, if Congress made the right changes to law and appropriations this problem, like most of our domestic problems would be significantly reduced, possibly eliminated. Like nearly everything else, it boils down to Republican policy in Congress, too stupid and too cheap to govern the country properly.

          46. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            So like with almost everything else, when right-wing trolls hype the crime in inner cities which they claim are run by Democrats, all they’re actually doing is trying to deflect the blame from Republicans in Congress who are constantly cutting federal funding these mayors need to better control crime; and it’s also Republicans who generally refuse to make change to the laws which are needed to help reduce inner city crime.

            So once again – it’s mostly Republicans refusing to do anything to help reduce the problems America is experiencing in its inner cities with right-wing trolls trying to foist the blame on Democrats.
            Why am I not surprised??

          47. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            The only place to buy a firearm with no questions asked is out of the trunk of some criminal’s car. The law banning felons, addicts, mental cases and spouse abusers applies to ALL sales of ALL firearms ANYWHERE in the United States. The background check system that identifies persons known to be barred firearms is accessible only to licensed dealers, but unlicensed dealers are expected to know their few (less than six in any year) customers and to refuse to supply firearms to those ineligible to receive them. There is NO gap in the law, just in enforcement. Another problem we have primarily because Congress does not appropriate the funds to fix it.

            This is, by law, a militia country. Nobody needs a reason to buy a firearm legally. The semi-automatic AR-!5 is the best militia weapon, lawful to own, using the same ammunition as the Army, with which the militia would be deployed if and when mobilized. In practice, the AR-15 is no more deadly than an 1850s Henry repeating rifle which fires 16 times before reloading. Actually, the Henry has a greater effective range and could be considered more deadly because of that.

            Waiting periods for receipt of legally purchased firearms vary by State and do not show any effect on the homicide rate. The single biggest factor in homicide is poverty, and the most frequent homicides are of persons known to the perpetrator who was likely to have been drunk at the time.

            Note that Switzerland is also a militia country, the standard rifle is an actual assault (fully automatic) rifle, every adult male between 21 and 55 has one in his closet, and there are virtually no firearms crimes in the country. Japan is not a militia country, almost nobody has firearms, but the homicide rate is no lower than that of the USA. Violent crimes in Japan are quite frequent, but the weapons of choice are blades and poisons.

            The availability of weapons is not a cause of violence. Culture is the cause of violence. If one kind of weapon is restricted, violence will be committed with whatever else is at hand.

          48. David September 6, 2016

            You are correct.

          49. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            And how about explaining to me dummkopf why all 10 of the states that both the Gallup and 24/7 Wall Street survey organizations have found are the most miserable places in America to live with the absolute worst quality of life are all Red States. And Indiana run by Pence and Ohio run by Kasich are number 2 and 3 on that list respectively.

            And not only that, but WalletHub just published their 2015 results for the states with the most people who are broke and on the verge of bankruptcy and the 1st 25 plus states on that list ARE ALL RUN BY THE GOP!!

            So tell me there dummkopf, is what you’re wanting is for the GOP TO TURN ALL OF AMERICA into a broke nation with everyone living a miserable live with the absolute worst quality of life???

            BECAUSE THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT THE GOP IS DOING TO EVERY STATE THAT IT GOVERNS!!!!!!

            Virtually every state the GOP governs is being turned into a QUASI 3RD WORLD HELLHOLE!!!

          50. David September 3, 2016

            Hmmm…New York; Chicago; Baltimore; Detroit; Newark; all run by Demorats for the last 40 years.
            Cite your sources, atheist. Kind of like the garbage you posted about Texas. Turns out that, in addition to being an atheist POS, you are a lying one as well!

          51. vdpphd September 4, 2016

            The Constitution does not allow the United States to be an officially Christian country. No religious law, regardless of which religion, is permitted to be Public Law. One third of the signatories to the US Constitution were NOT Christians. Your religious freedom is absolute, as long as it does not interfere with mine, and vice versa. Go back to school. Learn the meaning of America. Obviously, you do not now “get it”

            The United States is the ONLY non-sectarian religious country in the world. We have the freedom to worship how we wish but no power to impose any aspect of our faith on anyone else. Atheism, the positive assertion that there is no God, is as much a faith as is any religion. Since God cannot be studied scientifically, there are no facts, no proven truths, and no certainties in religion. Just faith. You are entitled to yours, but kindly do NOT try to impose any of it on anyone else.

            Historically Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish preacher ministering to a Jewish population in a Jewish country, preaching an entirely Jewish message. He was executed on a Jewish holy day by crucifixion, an exclusively Roman punishment, for an act of rebellion against Rome, to whit, claiming, or being claimed, to be the rightful King of Judea, when Rome had their own appointee on the Judean throne instead. His followers created the Christian religion in his name after his death. “Christ” is not even a Judean word and he probably would not have recognized it if it was said to him during his ministry. In Judean, he would have been “Moshiach ben David”, if he were actually the King they claimed him to be.

            Ignorance is bliss, but it is not history and does not make good policy.

          52. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            I think you misunderstood my post or intended this for David as what you say here was the gist of my post. I hope you don’t mind that I’m going to post it to him for you.

          53. marlette782 September 4, 2016

            Just make sure in the future you hold Muslims to the same standard.

          54. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            Muslims are already held to the same standard without additional law or action. Shari’a cannot be made the law of the land, nor the law of any community within it. Neither can Torah, despite efforts by certain Chasidic Jewish sects to take over towns where they have large population majorities. No establishment of religion means any religion, all religions.

          55. marlette782 September 6, 2016

            If you follow the ACLU it is clear that they and other liberal groups back down when confronted with a challenge from Islam. They demanded that the Univ. of Mich provide funds for Muslim holy water. This after years of being lectured about keeping religion out of school. The ACLU also refused to stop a Muslim religious Mosque from being built on public land given away by the city for pennies. Can you imagine if a Christian group did the same.

          56. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            “They and other liberal groups” is sufficiently vague to be meaningless. Which groups? When? I know my local ACLU people. They would not be involved in a case like you cite. There is no such thing as Muslim Holy Water. The ACLU does not defend the majority in land use cases, so if Muslims wanted to build on public land the ACLU would not be on the side to stop them. They take the side of Muslims who want to build on private land when the local law is trying to stop that. Have you actually ever received or read any ACLU literature, or do you just get your view of them from their enemies?

          57. marlette782 September 7, 2016

            Groups include ACLU, People for the American Way, The New York Times are the worst offenders. I have spoken to people connected to the ACLU. They are not pleasant people when challenged. I pointed out in recent years that the ACLU has supported Muslim prayer in schools in San Diego and Dearborn. If you criticize the right of Muslims to prayer in these schools, they will call you a bigot. The New York Times has published art where Jesus is being peed on, the Virgin Mary has cow dung on her face. But they will defend or publish anti Muslim art. They will call those artists bigots

          58. vdpphd September 8, 2016

            The Constitution does not allow the government to limit free speech or religious practice. Public schools are government institutions, and cannot ban prayer led by students outside of teaching hours. Any prayers. Any students. Neither administrators nor teachers, as government employees, have this freedom, and may not instigate or lead any sectarian prayers whatsoever in their public school. Private schools, not being the government, have the power to dictate religious practices to the student body, who are free to go to another school instead. The New York Times additionally enjoys the Constitutional freedom of the press, and may publish anything their publisher wants to publish, no matter what. Including national security secrets. No religious figure is protected from ridicule by law in the United States. This is NOT a Christian country, so Jesus has no more standing than Andy Gump. You are free to be offended, but you have no actual grievance. If you do not like the American Constitutional system, you are free to move out of this country to a place where the system is more to your liking. If you can get enough votes, you can try to change the system her, but it is unlikely that there are enough votes to allow the imposition of any one religion on anyone.

            By the way, so-called Muslim Holy Water must be imported from Arabia, as it comes from a well located in Mecca near the Kaaba. Public schools are not allowed to promote any religion, so they cannot buy students Kaaba water any more than they can buy them palm fronds or communion wafers. Since the water in question is actually contaminated with toxic minerals, it perhaps cannot be imported into the USA at all, for human use anyway. It is not a formal tenet of Islam that the well water near the Kaaba is actually holy in any way, the practices around it being customs and traditions rather than Shari’a.

          59. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            I believe vdpphd meant this for you:

            The Constitution does not allow the United States to be an officially Christian country. No religious law, regardless of which religion, is permitted to be Public Law. One third of the signatories to the US Constitution were NOT Christians. Your religious freedom is absolute, as long as it does not interfere with mine, and vice versa. Go back to school. Learn the meaning of America. Obviously, you do not now “get it”

            The United States is the ONLY non-sectarian religious country
            in the world. We have the freedom to worship how we wish but no power to impose any aspect of our faith on anyone else. Atheism, the positive assertion that there is no God, is as much a faith as is any religion. Since God cannot be studied scientifically, there are no facts, no proven truths, and no certainties in religion. Just faith. You are entitled to yours, but kindly do NOT try to impose any of it on anyone else.

            Historically Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish preacher ministering to a Jewish population in a Jewish country, preaching an entirely Jewish message. He was executed on a Jewish holy day by crucifixion, an exclusively Roman punishment, for an act of rebellion against Rome, to whit, claiming, or being claimed, to be the rightful King of Judea, when Rome had their own appointee on the Judean throne
            instead. His followers created the Christian religion in his name after his death. “Christ” is not even a Judean word and he probably would not have recognized it if it was said to him during his ministry. In Judean, he would have been “Moshiach ben David”, if he were actually the King they claimed him to be.

            Ignorance is bliss, but it is not history and does not make good policy.

        2. marlette782 September 5, 2016

          What does this have to do with Trump?

      2. Independent1 September 3, 2016

        If the laws in this country were actually followed as they should be, Donald Trump would have been in prison for the past several decades. It’s very clear that bending of the laws is the only way someone as crooked as Donald Trump could have been sued 3,500 times and not yet have been imprisoned!!! When will you right-wingers ever live up by what you preach!!! I’ll guarantee you it was people who would support Trump today who have helped him get off thus far without jail time.

        If any people need to be deported from America, it is Donald Trump and his supporters like you!!!!!!

        1. David September 3, 2016

          Exactly what “laws” are you referring to? I am unaware of any Federal or state laws that make it a criminal offense to be sued numerous times. By the way, was it Donald Trump individually being sued or one of his corporations?
          It is obvious that you don’t have the first clue about what you are bleating. Cite one of these “laws” not being followed. You can’t, because you are a leftist moron. Oops….I guess I repeated myself.

          1. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            Oh! Come on! Trump has outright conned so many investors, workers and others that he should have been sent to jail years ago. Any judge that hadn’t been bribed by him would have seen that he’s no less of a con man than the guy that goes around trying to sell people on doing maintenance/repair work on their homes and then leaves then lhem high and dry with either shoddy work or not having done the work he she promised to do at all.

            And that kind of action is called fraud!! Fraud that Trump has committed time and time again and yet magically gotten off without jail time!! Only someone totally as clueless as you can’t see that Trump has bribed judge after judge to look the other way and not see the crime after crime that he has committed.

            He has screwed hundreds/thousands of people, not to mention states and cities out of living up to promises they he has made; That is called FRAUD!!!!!

          2. Kurt Kruse September 3, 2016

            In short YOU ARE AN IDIOT ! Certainly “NOT WORTH” anyone spending any time responding to your particular brand of Stupidity!!

          3. Independent1 September 6, 2016

            Yes I know. You just insist on not accepting FACTS which proove unconditionally that GOP-governance has been a disaster for almost every state that it has governed – the 25-30 states the GOP governs only a handful are even modestly successful – and some of those are only successful because they have an abundance of natural resources like oil and gas. Without those even Alaska would be a disaster as it’s people would also be on the verge of bankruptcy without the jobs and kickbacks they get each year from all the oil Alaska produces.

            Gallup and 24/7 Wall Street have ranked over 25 GOP-run states as not only having the most people broke and being on the verge of bankruptcy, but also being the most miserable states to live in with the worst quality of life.

            But probably the most prominent example of a GOP-governed disaster is Texas, that George Bush, Rick Perry and now Greg Abbott have turned into nothing but a hellhole.

            See these 23 socio-economic factors which when Texas is compared to other states in America, the hellhole these Republicans have created, ranks as being one of the worst 10 in the nation IN EVERY ONE OF THESE FACTORS: ALL 23 OF THEM!!! PLEASE EXPLAIN ALL THAT AWAY IN YOUR MISGUIDED EFFORTS TO SUPPORT GOP-GOVERNANCE!!

            Statistics on Texas from 2012-13

            .Texasis 49th in the country in tax revenues collected per capita and 50th in revenues spent.

            .Texas is 44th in tax progressivity, which means it collects most of its taxes from working people

            . and Texas comes in 50th in the percent of its population that have a HS diploma

            .and Texas is 49th in what it pays its teachers.

            .Texas ranks dead last (50th) in having the most people without health insurance

            .and also dead last in the number of children covered by insurance.

            .Texas is 49th in the support it provides to women & children in the WIC program

            .and it leads the nation in teenage births.

            .Texas ranks 6th in the nation in the number of people living in poverty

            and Texas is 50th with regard to the affordability of homeowners insurance.

            .Texas ranks 45th in the overall health of its population

            .and Texas ranks 47th with respect to mental health.

            .The quality of the highways in Texas is ranked 42nd and its parks and recreation facilities are ranked 48th

            .and Texas ranks 46th in environmental protection

            . Police protection in Texas is ranked 49th

            . and government administration in Texas ranks 50th.

            .Texas comes in 3rd in the nation in the number of public officials that are convicted for a crime;

            .while Texas is dead last in the percent of voters who turn
            out for elections.

            .Texas is 46th in the hourly earnings of its workers

            .and Texas is 48th in the payout of worker’s comp benefits.

            .Texas also has the worst healthcare services and delivery in the nation according to the federal Agency for Health Care Research and Quality

            .And Texas ranks as having the most polluted environment in the nation because of all the oil spills and toxic fumes that are spewed by all its oil refineries and coal-fired power plants.

          4. David September 3, 2016

            Specifically, what Federal or state judge has Trump bribed?

          5. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            In fact, Trump is now facing two civil cases and one criminal case for fraud by Trump University. The judges in each case have determined that evidence exists to support the complaints, thus the cases must go to trial. Trial for at least one case begins the day after the November election. If Trump is convicted in the criminal case he may actually go to jail.

        2. Kurt Kruse September 3, 2016

          Ah now I understand your one of those! You know what I’m talking about,we call them LIV’s “Low Information voters”! Your premise here is because Trump has been unsuccessfully sued on multiple occasions he must be a crook.Then seek refuge where are of your ilk do, you resort to mane calling. Let us hope your parent taught you better. and your just an ass. Finally their are published volumes, found in both the written word, talking heads on TV, and even the big screen.All of which indicate more then a passing dishonesty on the part of lying Hillary. In closing I suspect that you are but one of the many who feel the government owes you free lunch.free hosing,free college,free phones.cash for clunkers, the list goes on and on,and sadly the Government does not produce anything that generates money!That comes from taxpayers who are sick and tired of the Washington Corruption. At least Trump went out and earned his!

          1. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            Talk about low information, you’re low mental capabilities~!!

            Here’s just one of many stories on the internet on how Trump has been cheating and cheating and cheating people all his life!!

            Donald Trump Sued For Cheating His Fans Of $40 Million

            New York Attorney General Eric Schniederman is suing Donald Trump and his real estate “university” for defrauding more than 5,000 people of $40 million. “Mr. Trump used his celebrity status and personally appeared in commercials making false promises to convince people to spend tens of thousands of dollars they couldn’t afford for lessons they never got,” Schniederman says in a release. “No one, no matter how richor popular they are, has a right to scam hard working New Yorkers. Anyone who does should expect to be held accountable.”

            http://gothamist.com/2013/08/25/donald_trump_sued_for_cheating_his.php

            He even cheats at golf:

            “I’ve played a lot, and I’ve played well,” he said. “There’s very few people that can beat me in golf.” On multiple occasions during his campaign, he has let voters know that he “killed” Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) when the two squared off this year. “I could playhim a thousand times and never lose to him,” he said. And by all accounts, Trump is a very good golfer. Just maybe not as good as he says he is.

            “The worst celebrity golf cheat?” the rock star Alice Cooper said in a 2012 interview with Q magazine.

            “I wish I could tell you that. It would be a shocker. I played with Donald Trump one time. That’s all I’m going to say.” (“I’ve never playedwith Alice Cooper,” Trump said. “That’s a terrible thing to say about people, especially me.”)

            “Golf is like bicycle shorts: It can reveal a lot about a guy,” said Rick Reilly, the sportswriter who hit the links with Trump for his 2004 book “Who’s Your Caddy?” — in which Reilly lugged clubs for several of the world’s best golfers and VIP amateurs.

            As for Trump? “When it comes to cheating, he’s an 11 on a scale of one to 10,” Reilly said.

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/does-donald-trump-cheat-at-golf-a-washington-post-investigation/2015/09/02/f8a940b2-50c4-11e5-9812-92d5948a40f8_story.html

            And this from USA Today:

            USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills

            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/

          2. marlette782 September 5, 2016

            If he cheated those students then they can take their case to civil court. Seems like you should wait until the results come in. But of course liberals rarely do that. Cheating at gulf. You are aware that the same thing has been said about Bill Clinton for years. He cheats on mulligans, will move the ball when he thinks no one will notice. This has been written about for years.

        3. marlette782 September 4, 2016

          You do understand that there is a difference between civil court and criminal court. People usually are not jailed in civil court. And businessmen are sued all the time. Some cases may have merit while others are people trying to get money from some rich businessman

        4. vdpphd September 8, 2016

          Actually, no. Deportation is the punishment for illegal entry, no more, no less. By statute known convicted criminals are not eligible for legal entry – and if you lie on your immigration application that alone is grounds for deportation. Check on the case of Ivan Djemjanjuk, deported for lying about membership in the Ukrainian SS. Check on the case of Salvatore Lucania (aka Lucky Luciano), admitted as an immigrant at the age of four and deported late in life for repeated violation of drug trafficking laws. Trump is a US citizen and so cannot be deported, just incarcerated, but not for civil fraud. He is going trial for criminal fraud regarding Trump U in November after the election, and if convicted there may yet go to jail for it. Due process of law

      3. vdpphd September 4, 2016

        Law enforcement is more than a matter of statutes. It is a matter of courts, cops, and jails in sufficient numbers to actually enforce that law. Congress does not appropriate the necessary funds. That is all there is to it.

      4. vdpphd September 6, 2016

        There is no “The Law.” There is Federal law, State law, and local law. These are separate, the cops at each level are independent, and the courts at each level are independent too. City court for city law, State court for State law, Federal court for Federal law. Any law can only be enforced by the courts of jurisdiction and the corresponding police forces. There is no local law enforcement for treason either.

    2. marlette782 September 3, 2016

      Gee, you liberals want the rest of the country to enforce federal law on gay marriage but see no reason to enforce federal laws you don’t like

      1. Independent1 September 3, 2016

        No laws are not being enforced. They’re simply being enforced different than what was originally intended because the original laws were creating all kinds of problems not only for the immigrants but also for our courts.

        1. vdpphd September 4, 2016

          The local courts cannot jail persons for immigration violations. Only Federal courts have that power. The Congress has not funded enough Federal courts and jails to incarcerate immigration violators pending hearings, which they are entitled to by the Constitution simply because they are here. The result is that immigration violators are arraigned and released on tier own recognizance pending a hearing. Local criminal cases are handled, entirely separately, by local courts, to which immigration status is immaterial by law. It is up to local arraignment courts to deny bail to immigration violators who commit other crimes, and not for immigration violation but for being either a danger to the community or a flight risk. Lacking prompt response from immigration authorities the local court cannot know that a miscreant before it is illegal and could flee.

          1. marlette782 September 4, 2016

            Then that also would mean local courts cannot jail someone for breaking a federal gun control law

          2. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            Exactly

        2. marlette782 September 4, 2016

          So liberals enforce federal laws differently than intended. Then I guess Kentucky should have the same right to enforce laws differently than intended. You claim they create problems for immigrants. Well Yeah. They are here illegally. I guess you could say federal gun control laws create problems for gun owners and the courts trying to enforce them. So then I guess local communities should have the right to enforce them or not too enforce them

      2. vdpphd September 4, 2016

        The Fourteenth amendment does not allow States to grant marriage benefits under law to heterosexual couples and deny them to gay couples – equal protection under the law. The Constitution does not allow Federal interference in the sacrament of marriage, just in the legal contract of marriage.

        State and local law enforcement have no jurisdiction over immigration and have no power to enforce immigration law. The Constitution does not allow the Congress to force local law enforcement to handle immigration issues.

        Both of these things are about the Constitution, not about liberals and conservatives or political and moral principles. The law is the law, the Constitution is the supreme law, and if you do not like it you must gather the votes to amend the Constitution.

        Go study civics so you know what you are talking about.

        1. marlette782 September 4, 2016

          Ok. So if Congress passes gun control laws like the Brady Bill, then the local governments can refuse to enforce them. Are you aware that their is a county in Oregon that refuses to enforce them. Equal protection under the law. Woman can opt. out of parenthood after conception by having an abortion but men have to pay child support. They do not have the right to opt. out after conception. So I guess the 14th amend. should give men the right to opt. out after conception

          1. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            Actually, no. Local law enforcement is not ALLOWED to enforce Federal gun laws. The jurisdiction is exclusively given to the US Treasury Department Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. States and cities have their own, additional, gun laws, which they enforce themselves, like the Sullivan Law in New York, which outlaws handguns in the five counties making up New York City, but not in the rest of the State. If you live in the Bronx you can only get a handgun permit if you are a police person or licensed armed guard. In Putnam County, any adult may own a handgun.

            Past Congresses have tried to make local cops enforce Federal law but the Supreme Court has ruled that unconstitutional. .

  6. Paul Anthony September 2, 2016

    One of the first things that happens in a preliminary court hearing is a determination of reasonable bail. If the accused is a flight risk, bail will be set higher or no bail will be approved. By refusing to allow judges to know that an accused is in the country illegally and therefore a greater flight risk, sanctuary cities prevent judges from making sound decisions regarding bail. As a result, many undocumented people are released with little or no bail and never show up for trial.

    Reply
    1. johninPCFL September 2, 2016

      Have any data on that?
      The reports of criminal activity wherein undocumented have a lower crime performance rate than native-born Americans includes default judgements made when a case is skipped. In short, “never show up fr trial” data are included in the lower crime-rate statistics.

    2. Independent1 September 3, 2016

      Not only do illegals commit far less crime, native-born Americans commit 8-10 times the crimes illegals do as a percentage of the population, the vast majority of crimes illegals commit DO NOT require jail time or even the setting of bail (the crimes native-born Americans commit are 2-3 times more likely to require jail time than the crimes illegals commit – which are mostly – petty crimes).

      Illegals are not stupid like you would like to believe. The majority of illegals are in America to not only better their own lives but to send money home to better the lives of family members back in their home country. They know very well that committing a crime will just greatly heighten the probability they will be deported and therefore, rarely do illegals commit crimes. That’s why El Paso and San Diego, two cities with high concentrations of illegals, are 2 of the 10 cities in America with the biggest reduction in their crime rate over the past 20 years as their illegal populations have gotten bigger.

      Just like with the right-wing biased CIS, people like you like to create situations that are nothing more than fabrications of the real world!!!

      1. Paul Anthony September 3, 2016

        Right, and none of them join gangs, because they are all saints. You do not live in the real world.

        1. Independent1 September 3, 2016

          I never said there weren’t any bad ones like there’s always some bad apples in a barrel of apples. But that doesn’t change the fact that as a percentage of the number of illegals vs the number of non illegals, illegals still commit FAR LESS CRIMES and especially crimes that require jail time. In California where more than 35% of the population are immigrants, including illegals, less than 17% of the prison population are people born outside th U.S.

          And for your information, Obama has been rounding up and deporting those bad apple immigrants at a faster rate than any other president. And virtually everything that Donald Trump has been campaigning on about deporting immigrants is already being done, except for building his stupid wall and being totally hateful about deporting them.

          Especially when doing what Trump suggests – deporting all illegals would cause a catastrophe to happen to the U.S. economy – it would fall into the biggest Depression America has ever seen.

          Immigrants, including illegals ARE THE VERY BACKBONE OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY, BECAUSE NOT ONLY DO THEY DO MANY JOBS NATIVE-BORN AMERICANS WILL NOT DO – THEY DO THEM AT A PAY RATE NO NATIVE-BORN WOULD ACCEPT. AND AT A RATE THAT NOT ONLY ALLOWS MANY BUSINESSES TO STAY IN BUSINESS, BUT AT A RATE THAT SUPPORTS MILLIONS OF NATIVE-BORN AMERICANS’ JOBS.

          LIKE TRUCK DRIVERS AND CONSTRUCTION WORKERS AND PEOPLE WHO RUN HOTELS AND MOTELS AND ON AND ON AND THAT INCLUDES ABOUT 35% OF AMERICA’S SMALL BUSINESSES WHICH IMMIGRANTS RUN!!!!!!!

          SO IF YOU’RE LOOKING TO TOTALLY DESTROY AMERICA, THEN BY ALL MEANS VOTE FOR TRUMP. BECAUSE IF HE HAS HIS WAY, AMERICA WILL TOTALLY OLLAPSE AROUND YOUR EARS WITHIN MONTHS OF HIM TAKING OFFICE!!!!!!

          1. Kurt Kruse September 3, 2016

            No that is also not true! Obama has in fact instituted a “Catch and release program” If the Illegal aliens can make it across the border,and then caught he or she has their fingerprints taken and if their our no outstanding warrants under their name. they are instructed to release them and do not even record names or give a damn about where they go, and what they do! I suspect you will not acknowledge this fact,so perhaps you might find the time to learn the facts before you utter your nonsense.

          2. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            More flat-out lies!! Obama has done no such thing. Stop watch Faux News’ propaganda. You’re nothing more than a Faux News sheeple!!!

          3. vdpphd September 8, 2016

            Actually, no. An illegal who is apprehended and has no criminal record or charges is arraigned for illegal entry, assigned a hearing date, and released on their own recognizance. There are more such apprehensions than there are jail spaces in which to hold them until trial, so it is impossible to hold them, or follow all of them, or track any of them, given the amount of money Congress has appropriated for immigration law enforcement. If you do not like “catch and release” ask your Representative and Senators to tax the rich enough to pay for actual enforcement of immigration law as it now stands..

        2. vdpphd September 4, 2016

          There are always individual cases. These are not all or none problems. They are not even moral issues. There are lives and dollars at stake and individuals who each must be accorded due process of law simply by being within US jurisdiction. Laws that are based on principles will not help. We must deal with facts. People are here. Most of them are ordinary working people, some are professional criminals, some are trying to chisel something. Each case is required to be handled only on its own merits. Funds must be appropriated so that dangerous aliens from friendly countries can be held, as are applicants for refugee status who have no country. All it takes to solve most Federal problems is the appropriation of sufficient funds to employ the personnel and to buy the equipment to do the job properly. The deficit is solved by making the tax system sensible and fair, which it is now neither. None of our problems can be solved without 218 House votes and 60 Senate votes three times. The President cannot sign what they do not enact, nor can he carry out what has not been enacted.

      2. Kurt Kruse September 3, 2016

        Your entire premise is based on the fact that you feel statistically Illegal Aliens do less crime, and the crime they do is minor and should be ignored by the authorities? I wonder how Kate Middleton’s Dad thinks of that argument?Heck lets contact all the victims of crimes perpetuated on them by “Illegal Aliens” and get their options on your assassin nothingness.Better let me encourage you to sneak into any country on the planet, so that you can experience, up close and personal how the rest of the world views “Illegal Aliens, who have broken their immigration laws and are now taking away jobs from their citizens and worse are standing in lines to get free government handouts. Finally let me assure you that the Government does not generate any cash on their own, rather it is generated by taxpayers,and taken by the Government branch called the IRS and then distributed by politicians, on often questionable activities. Their is NO FREE LUNCH and taxpayers are sick and tired of those who seek to find it on their dime..

        1. Independent1 September 3, 2016

          I never said crimes by illegals should be ignored. But they commit less crime than babies born here of native-born parents do, so why aren’t you demonizing the native-born women who are having babies that will grow up and commit far more crimes than the aliens who have come to American and are undocumented??? Suggesting that illegals commit lots of crimes, like Trump is doing, is a flat out lie!!!!! Illegals do not deserve to be demonized; anymore than years ago people demonized our military people claiming they committed rampant crimes which was also then a flat out lie!!!!!!

          1. marlette782 September 3, 2016

            If illegals are law abiding, then why can’t they come her legally? And why does Mexico have a wall on their southern border?

          2. Independent1 September 3, 2016

            You are aware that the vast majority of undocumented immigrants are in America because they came here via a visa and overstayed the duration of the visa. It’s a smaller subset of the undocumenteds who came over our southern border.

            And the majority of them came over that border because of the outdated immigration laws we have which establish totally unworkable quotas from certain nations – such that many that have come over the border do so because they are desperate for work (to the point of their lives being at risk) and they know there is absolutely no chance they would be able to come here legally.

            So these people are left with an option, stay in the corrupt country you are currently in and probably end up dying soon either from starvation or being murdered. Or risk your life trying to get to America where if you make it over the border you at least have the option of trying to get a job that will keep you alive and maybe permit you to send some of your earnings back to your family back home so they can stay alive.

            Now given those options, what do you think you would do if you were living in a country in Central America with virtually no work for people to do and a very high murder rate??

          3. vdpphd September 4, 2016

            The best estimate is that 40% of all illegals are visa violators and the other 60% sneaked in without any visa at all. In either case, Congress does not appropriate sufficient funds to deal with these problems, because the economic analysis shows that business, Federal, and income tax collecting state and local jurisdictions MAKE money from illegal immigration. The only government units that lose money are county public hospitals. Most sneak-ins do not intend to stay, anyway, and may go back and forth many times in their lives, getting caught and deported and sneaking back in again. If temporary work visas were plentiful and easy to get, nobody would have to sneak in at all. The entire immigration problem is in Washington, in Congress, where lip service is paid to immigration control but no funds are appropriated to deal with the actual root causes. Change of any kind requires a new majority in Congress, regardless of who is President.

            Government spending cannot in practice be dictated by intentions. Demand for government services is generated by demographics and economics, and you must pay for government if you want to have in order to have any,.

          4. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            Thanks again for clarifying things a little more. My perception is that the GOP is stalling on fixing immigration just so they can use it as a distraction from what their real intentions are – to get laws passed that allow them to funnel even more taxpayer monies into the pockets of the already wealthy, including themselves via budget cuts and reducing the tax rates on the upper income folks.

            If I’m right, of course they don’t want to appropriate money to fix the immigration problems, 1) because as you point out it would require putting more money into fixing the issue, and 2) they don’t want the issue to go away so the can keep Americans focused on the immigration situation while they go about trying to steal more money from the less advantaged Americans.

          5. vdpphd September 6, 2016

            We cannot prove that Republicans have taken the posture they have to cover their intention to rob Joe Sixpack some more.

            However, the trope “first secure the border” is nonsensical. Real security experts report that it is not actually feasible to truly secure the US/Mexico border, and that securing the US/Canadian border is literally impossible. Therefore, if a secure border must come first, and a secure border cannot be achieved, then no actual solution to the immigration problem can be produced. If they know this, it supports the idea that this is all a smokescreen for unfair taxation and cheapskate response to needs for spending.

            The solution, of course, is to elect no Republicans to Congress!

          6. marlette782 September 4, 2016

            Is it my fault that Hispanics are waging war on each other in their countries. You seemed to miss my point about Mexico’s southern border. They will beat the crap out of central americans who dare cross their border.

          7. Independent1 September 4, 2016

            And as I asked earlier, what does how the Mexicans treat Central Americans have to do with anything?? And again, I’ve never seen anything about the Mexicans beating the crap out of CAs, so where is your proof that they are doing that? I’m sure if word got back to the people in CA who were thinking of migrating to America through Mexico that people were getting beat up badly, that the CAs would stop trying to migrate through Mexico.

          8. marlette782 September 5, 2016

            What does it have to do with anything. It shows that the Mexicans are not living up to the standards they impose on us. Go on google and type in HOW DOES MEXICO TREAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS You will find articles from many sources

          9. Aaron_of_Portsmouth September 5, 2016

            Marlette, you’re mired in the same trap sp many of your like-minded peers are who are self-centered in a way of a propensity of the status quo adherents among conservatives who think in stark terms of us versus them.
            Take a moment to think about what you wrote and other comments and you may perhaps apprehend what I’m speaking of.
            Unitil you learn to look at the affairs of the world not simply from a European attitude, you will never be able to fulfill your obligation and spiritual “contract” you’ve entered in with Jesus, and with the ideals and purpose of God. Trump clearly has violated his “contract” with God, and you clearly are OK with following his lead.

            To help you realign yourself with humanity, please consider and reflect on the following by Baha’u’llah from His “The Hidden Words” :

            “O Children of Men! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance, it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.”

          10. marlette782 September 6, 2016

            First of all I am not religious nor do I support Trump. European view. What the heck does that mean? The Mexicans certainly can’t claim to be on the side of Jesus when you look at how they treat their illegal immigrants.

          11. vdpphd September 8, 2016

            People sneak into the United States because it takes from 6 to 18 month to get a visa to be a legal immigrant, and the applicant must apply at a US Consultate in their nation of origin. A person who has fled Guatemala for their life is not able to apply for a visa after illegally entering Mexico. A family which is starving cannot wait 18 months for their breadwinner to get an American work permit. People risk death just by walking into the USA in Arizona. They come anyway. What obstacles more than the Jornada Del Muerte can we put up? There are 400 John and Jane Doe corpses in the Pima County morgue right now, found dead on the route from Mexico to Tucson. How do you keep them out when they are willing to die trying to get in?

        2. vdpphd September 8, 2016

          Statistics are not about any one case and do not take into account anyone’s feelings. Statistics is the mathematical technique for determining whether a particular event is or is not likely due to chance. This includes knowing whether a given measure (e.g., crimes per 100,00 population) is or is not correlated with another (e.g., percent of illegals in a population.) We KNOW that in the aggregate illegal aliens commit fewer crimes than legal residents. Whether a specific illegal is or is not a criminal is entirely something else.

        3. Self_Liberation September 12, 2016

          you are just sick no matter, quit blaming others, mr victim.

    3. vdpphd September 8, 2016

      Nobody refuses judges the knowledge that an arraigned person is in the country illegally. In fact, the State court bail hearing must be held before the Federal immigration response can be received, so it cannot be taken into account. State court judges cannot compel federal authorities to reply at all. much less before bail must be set. This is a feature of the federal system – States have their own jurisdiction over some matters independent of federal jurisdiction over others.

  7. Kurt Kruse September 3, 2016

    Sadly it seems that local politicians can and do, pass laws which give them they feel the authority to ignore the legal immigration laws that are in place. Some of these Neanderthals actually thin that their ideas are just so good that they supersede existing
    laws passed.Yet these very same politicians stand in line with hands outstretched looking for tax dollars from everyone and anyone who lives by the laws and pays those pesky taxes.Illegal aliens are of course given a pass, worse they are found in the front of the lines which give away hard earned tax dollars.Now some of these morons who decide such things want to change the term “Illegal Aliens” to undocumented workers. Certainly it sound better, but it is far from accurate! The folk who have over stayed their visa or sneaked into our country illegally, are in fact “ILLEGAL ALIENS PERIOD!” Any attempt to re-badge these folks is both dishonest and deceptive.

    Reply
    1. Independent1 September 4, 2016

      You should go up and read the comment from vpphd which comes with some knowledge on the issue which you clearly don’t have, and which makes it clear that what you posted is just one more right-winger fabrication of reality (also known as a lie).

    2. Independent1 September 5, 2016

      And you love to talk about Low Information Voters, well, if you’re supporting Trump, you’re clearly a low information voter in more ways than one; and like the Washington Post Editorial Board thinks, you just may be nothing but a chump!!!

      Better see this and do a little thinking there LIV!!!

      Donald Trump’s bet: We are all chumps

      By Editorial Board September 4 at 7:43 PM

      AS THE presidential campaign enters its final stretch, this seems like a
      good time to ask: Will American voters allow themselves to be insulted,
      taken for granted and made fools of?

      Donald Trump seems to be betting that the answer is yes. How else to judge his assumption that he can be elected without sharing basic information? He has released no meaningful health records. He has put forward virtually no serious policy proposals. Unlike every other major-party nominee of the modern era, he refuses to release his tax forms.

      All of these would be essential reading material from any candidate, but the need for disclosure is especially urgent from Mr. Trump. He would be the oldest president ever elected, so his medical history is relevant. Unlike Hillary Clinton and, again, every other modern major-party candidate, he has no record of service in politics or public office by which he can be judged, so his policy intentions take on added significance. He has been on so many sides of so many issues that even serious position papers at this point would have limited credibility. But they would be better than nothing.

      Because his claim to the presidency is founded on his claimed success as a businessman, his tax and financial records are particularly salient. Has he really made as much money as he boasts? Has he paid taxes? Has he sheltered money in the Cayman Islands, done deals with Russian oligarchs? Who knows? Not the voters — and, as far as Mr. Trump is concerned, there is no need for us to bother our little heads with such matters. As his son Eric said, “You would have a bunch of people who know nothing about taxes” — he means us dumb voters, in case you miss the reference — “trying to look
      through and trying to come up with assumptions they know nothing about.”

      http://www.nationalmemo.com/what-are-sanctuary-cities-anyway/#comment-2878211011

  8. marlette782 September 3, 2016

    We should do the same thing the Mexican government does. Kick out all the illegal immigrants.

    Reply
    1. Independent1 September 4, 2016

      Really? I don’t think you even have a clue as to just how eliminating the illegals would impact our economy. One estimate is that it would remove from our economy the economic impact of removing Texas which has the 2nd highest GDP in America behind California and contributes about 1.5 Trillion dollars of GDP to our nations annual GDP total of around 16-17 Trillion.

      Removing that amount of GDP would devastate our economy and probably send America into a recession/depression bigger than the 2008/9 Great Recession.

      People like you and Trump HAVE NO CLUE just how important illegals are to the running of America. Here is just a glimpse:

      As for Trump’s illogical and cynical claims that deporting millions of
      migrants would lift the American economy and help underemployed
      Americans, the American Action Forum report found
      deporting 11 million undocumented people—including upwards of 6.8
      million workers—would have devastating economic consequences. It would
      remove 16 percent of the nation’s farm, forestry and fishing workers, 12
      percent of construction workers, 9 percent of leisure and hospitality
      workers, 6 percent of manufacturing workers, and so on, cutting national
      economic growth from between 3 and 5 percent, or upwards of $625
      billion.

      See more on this from alternet.com:

      http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trumps-mass-deportation-machine-would-create-american-police-state-equal-nazi-germany

      And that doesn’t even include the cost of doing what Trump suggests which would cost America between 700 and 950 billion or more to accomplish.

      I’m sorry, but like with everything else, Donald Trump is a total nutcase.

      1. marlette782 September 4, 2016

        You missed my point. I wasn’t being serious. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of liberals and Mexico. They claim deporting and asking for papers is racism. Yet that is what they do in Mexico. I guess that makes Mexico a racist country

        1. Independent1 September 4, 2016

          What does what they do in Mexico have to do with anything. ISIS beheads people they don’t like so should we start beheading people or just keep letting the GOP starve them to death by cutting any benefits that needy Americans get, or by depriving them of Medicaid like 20 GOP states are still doing??

          Just because the GOP is no different than ISIS, doesn’t mean everyone in the U.S. should act that way.

          And let’s see some proof that the Mexicans are beating the crap out of Central Americans who try to migrate to the U.S. through their country.

          1. marlette782 September 6, 2016

            What does it have to do with anything? Mexico is lecturing us about our laws. We should call them out on their hypocrisy. ISIS is not lecturing us about human rights. You want proof that Mexico beats the crap out of people means you don’t know anything about Mexico. The police are as corrupt as can be. Bribes are common. I don’t have time to educate you about Mexico. Look it up on google. How does mexico treat illegal immigrants. Type that in. Comparing the GOP to ISIS is something that no serious political scientist would do. I guess I could compare the democrats to Stalin. They want to suck the spirit out of everyone

  9. vdpphd September 4, 2016

    Sanctuary Cities are like the Ground Zero Mosque. There is, in fact, no such thing. Calling the Feds to check the immigration status of an apprehended person has always been the prerogative of local law enforcement, as is not calling them. City councils may adopt “sanctuary city” status as an act of political theater, but it has no standing in law. The Feds have sole jurisdiction for immigration violations, and local law cannot Constitutionally be obligated to assist, except at the direction of a US Marshal regarding a particular fugitive. This is one of many Right Wing tropes that has no actual reality. The response time in most major cities for a Federal immigration check exceeds the time allowed to keep a suspect in custody without arraignment. If the Feds had more money, and more people, maybe they could respond in 72 hours. Since they can’t, the cops must let go anyone they cannot charge with a State or city crime. In fact, even when illegal aliens are brought to the Federal court for preliminary arraignment on immigration violation, the guilty are let go on their own recognizance with a deportation hearing date, since there are no Federal jails in which to keep them for the six month delay in getting a hearing. These are not “Administration policies.” These are make-do efforts dealing with the volume of cases given the appropriated funds For all the noise about this from Republicans in Congress, we hear nothing from them about increasing the appropriations to pay for the enforcement they say is lacking.

    Technically, blaming the other guy for something that is your fault is called “disingenuous.” It is also lying!

    Reply
    1. Independent1 September 4, 2016

      Great post!! Thanks for clarifying just one more right-winger distortion of reality.

      And part of the problem is, that right-wingers minds are so distorted by them listening to the propaganda spewed 24/7 from Faux News, that even common sense doesn’t let them rationalize the distortions of reality that they spew constantly. (Distortions of Reality are also known as lies. Which is about everything that comes out of the mouth of Donald Trump and his supporters 24/7.)

      1. marlette782 September 6, 2016

        Then you have no problem if republican cities and towns refuse to enforce federal gun laws

  10. Kurt Kruse September 4, 2016

    Sadly we have here in the person of “Independent” what can only be described as a LIV
    That folks stands for “Low Information Voter” he’s all of that and a bag of potato chips. Not only is he badly informed he’s proud of his ignorance on all things political and even perhaps everything in general. I am no longer going to reply to this Dumb ass’s comments, as both and his comments demonstrate a level of intellect,no higher than that of a primate, which is often found in the wild. Scratching both his ass,and his head simultaneously.

    Reply
    1. Independent1 September 5, 2016

      I guess when you have a totally empty head with no brains, anyone who posts facts which disagree with the fantasies that dance around in the empty space you call a head, must just be a ‘Low Infromation Voter’. Which is for you a lot to claim given that nothing you post resembles reality or the truth!!! So keep on living in your LA La Land!! Someday you’ll find that frog that may turn into a princess, or not!!!

    2. Self_Liberation September 12, 2016

      many of your posts project your problem on others, like low info quack. are you a duck?

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